Sustainable Tourism and Animal Welfare
hello and welcome wherever you are in the world today thank you for joining us for the rise traveler unpacking conversations of sustainable travel we are here to talk to eco-minded and socially conscious travelers diversity and inclusion specialists wildlife conservationists environmental activists and anyone using travel as a way to uplift and inspire together we will go a step beyond the instagram ready world of travel and take a look at how travel can be a source of growth and development for all people in all communities and now here's your host amy hager so joining me today remotely from england on the south coast about an hour south of london is daniel turner daniel thanks so much for joining me you're very welcome it's great to be here so i want to i mean i have so many questions to ask you but the first one that we have to figure out is how do you say the name of your company again annie mondial anna mondial and how did you come up with this name it's like you're creating your own dictionary or something well i mean in a way i mean we had to come up with a name that was relevant to what we do so obviously our focus is on animal protection so animals had to be in it and we're also work with the travel industry which is global so mondial of the world animondial so that's how we came up with the with the name i think it was brainstorming over a beer or something so that obviously helped um but no i mean we're pleased with the name it it really says what we do i love that i love that you were able to blend it and just kind of create your own unique thing um why not if you create your own business you can create your own name exactly well so that that brings me to my next question why did you create animondial and what do you all do so i'm going to put it in a small nutshell because it is a fairly long story but um i used to work for an international animal welfare organization and uh whilst i was there i created some guidance for the travel industry and this was the first time that guidance focused on animal welfare had been created for tourism and in that time of working for the ngo i sort of led that policy area and what became the problem is that the ethics of the organization which was fairly sort of black and white as far particularly as far as animals in captivity often got in the way of um meaningful change and so it became apparent that i had to kind of leave that behind create a new entity with my friend and colleague helen and you know we approach things from a more impartial view rather than from a partial view so we give the whole um whole story and allow people to make an informed decision rather than only knowing half of the story so that that's right where really why we founded Animondial and what we do is provide impartial advice and practical guidance to travel businesses so tour operators travel advisors anyone working in tourism basically about any issue to do with animal protection from individual animal welfare through to species protection habitat protection and a little bit wider than that too so then as we're thinking through like what you guys are doing and your impact on the world especially with tourism businesses and you know even governments to create animal welfare policies do you end up actually working directly with travelers as well well um not not uh not anymore i'd say to that because Animondial is definitely a b2b uh consultancy so we're a consultancy specializing in animal and nature protection and it's really about guiding those companies that include animal activities and experiences within their holiday or vacation tours and experiences so we guide them on what they should sell what they shouldn't sell and if they sell something that is maybe a little bit inappropriate because perhaps the animal's welfare is compromised or people's welfare is you know health and safety issue then we work with the travel business to find a solution to the problem interesting so do you have an example of like a problem that you guys have been able to kind of work through that could give our listeners somewhat of an idea well i wouldn't say we've necessarily worked for it because as our as our conversation will go you'll realize that the whole issue of animals in tourism is a very complex one not only because you're dealing with thousands of different species in lots of different activities and lots of different destinations but everybody has their own opinion and all those different variables cause the complexity so um i suppose the the topic i would immediately go for is um the whole captive elephant interactions so like the elephant camps in southeast asia which has received a lot of publicity more negative publicity about the whole um riding of elephants and there's been a lot of pressure on the travel businesses to remove those kind of activities from their itineraries from their tours actually that has caused more harm than good because a lot of those facilities lose income overnight because those tour operators have removed their business and uh the cul the the problem is that those animals then don't have the income to buy the food and to ensure that the people looking after them are paid and all these things so what has happened as a result of that activity is um animal sanctuaries have been created which are far from sanctuaries because they exploit the animals in different ways that that actually have compromised the welfare of the animal and also the people involved a lot a lot worse than they were before and and so this is a massive problem so we've been working with all the different stakeholders to find a solution and we're still going with that because it is a big one i mean there's four thousand seven hundred uh conditioned elephants trained elephants in just thailand so you can't just open the doors and allow them to roam in the wild i'm afraid that's an idealistic view that's not a realistic one so we have to find solutions to these big problems and tourism has to be part of the solution it's like realistic solutions for super complex problems that it's probably not going to happen overnight it sounds like it's going to take years of adjusting multiple things and a lot of mind shifts too to really find that right solution yeah totally and and that's really why um the opportunity to work with rise institute was an opportunity i had to grasp because um because the topic is a complex one uh just ending the activity or no longer providing the custom is not necessarily the solution to the problem ultimately because a lot of these animals are owned they can't just you you can't just confiscate them particularly if there's no laws that have been breached or in some cases there are no laws at all so um so we have to work with the system and we have to recognize that as animals they have welfare needs they can expect experience pain suffering distress they need good quality food they need suitable environment and if we remove the income those qualities will be damaged or removed altogether and that would actually cause a lot more harm than than being in the system in the first place yeah this is just such a complex thing to think through so then um tell me a little bit more about how is your work with rise and what are you what exactly are you doing with us to really help continue this movement to start going into i guess a better direction i don't know if we'll ever have the right direction but at least a better direction yeah i i agree i think we we have to move in the right direction we have to be part of something meaningful we have to those people that think the same way as that you know rather than just perhaps being pessimistic and saying you know climate change is going to end us all or whatever the sentiment is is is not going you know it's not helping anybody so we've at least got to come together and and pull together our efforts and and try and deliver some meaningful change and that's really what rise institute for me is all about on on learning about rise institute what they're wanting to achieve who they're wanting to engage and largely inc you know inspiring informing inspiring and empowering a whole host of different stakeholders to really understand these complex issues and to realize that in order to make that progressive change it's never black and white decision making it's understanding the complexities and then it's making an informed decision as to the direction of travel and i think most of the time people are are moving in in the right direction right so what i've done with Rise um working with uh sarah bexell from denver university is to create a session within the pilot program focused on animal protection and tourism and because we approach the topic from slightly different angles i think the session is going to be really engaging for those that come along and listen so i feel like you're just giving us a trailer to like this awesome movie and you just left me at a cliffhanger daniel well i mean that's what it's all about right but i mean you know the the listener the watcher will be will be guaranteed to understand what animal protection in tourism is what it entails but i think importantly to understand how animals are involved in tourism because certainly when i started this topic 20 years ago and i and i approach travel businesses saying what are you doing on on animals in tourism the first thing that they would jump into their minds are oh he's talking about uh viewing you know viewing animals in africa or on the plains of africa or uh in the seas in south africa or whatever you know wild animals in the wild and yes that is a component but you've also got animals in a captive environment you've got um domesticated animals that are used to carry people or loads you've got animals that are eaten you've you know there's lots of different things you've got to think about and and those are animals in tourism so that introduction to the topic introduction to the complexities of it what you know what happens if things are done in a poor way so lack of management what can be achieved uh if you manage it well because i truly believe tourism can be a force for good in this tourism shouldn't be seen as the culprit it can be but it doesn't have to be and then um sarah and i will kind of explore the opinions that we have between um human perception and animal welfare and then we'll go into standards and where the standards are important and then talking about these dilemmas where you know do you do you still give custom to an activity that in in theory you're against but you know that by not giving custom you're not you know those animals are going to suffer so it's that dilemma and how you work around it so that's kind of that's what it is in a nutshell but you'll have to tune in to learn more you're gonna have to join our pilot program again uh registration open until june 4th i love this so the next thing that i want to ask you is probably a little bit more on the personal side is um you're an environmental biologist by training and trait right and so yes okay well so then tell me about a little bit of the travel that maybe you get to do on either that you've done now or even before you started the company and think about a trip that really kind of maybe was that aha or change changed you give us a personal story well i think actually travel um is the creator of everything that i've done really and and still doing is as a result of experience past experiences and it doesn't have you don't have to travel to the other side of the world to have those experiences it could just be down the road but i think um for me you know i i grew up in uh surrey which is a uh the green belt a green area just below london it's fairly i don't know it's fairly sort of protected area and i didn't really get out much wider than i know a few hundred yards hundred miles around that that area so traveling to the other side of the of the world which i was given that opportunity at 18 after i uh finished my school my school is part of this uh round square conference which is um uh people may have heard of gordonstoun where the royal family went it kind of produces the aim of it is not just about academia it's about giving people the opportunity to understand the world and and be ready for it when they kind of uh open the doors and go out into the outside world um and so i went to one of those schools and through that i got an opportunity to uh live and work in an indian village a village in the foothills of the himalayas uh still a green area but obviously very different culture and experience all together and learning a different culture but how to communicate in different language understand nature and animals from a com you know completely different perspective rather than reading about the leopard you would open the door and you would see a leopard and and it was about protecting yourself protecting the life the livestock that you that the family was living with and all those different a different perspective on life and i think that certainly ignited my um my passion to explore and understand and not to not to take my personal feelings about a topic too strongly to actually try and think about whatever the topic is from other people's perspectives from other cultures from other you know other situations that people may be in and and i suppose that that experience has given me that approach on life and it and it didn't stop there i lived in the village in honduras in central america where i was growing tobacco of all things working as a farm laborer and then i also lived in the rainforest in peru as a guide and i also ran the uh jungle lodge uh in the in the rain forest as well so all these experiences i think prepare you for what comes next as far as uh nine to five work well i love um that you and i have a very similar upbringing where i grew up in iowa we did not travel outside of basically the three states that we touched was iowa minnesota and wisconsin and so i totally can appreciate when you get that first opportunity to really be exposed to other cultures and other things in how people live and how they do and then to continue to get opportunities like that throughout your life and build on your own personality and i guess your own personal suitcase of things that you can and i think i think back then i mean it wasn't that long ago but you know i it seems seems to be um you know eight and 1980s 1990s into early 2000s um you know travel wasn't immersive really i mean yes the the backpacker and so on but the majority of people would travel on in a kind of package style holiday most things will be organized um pre-tour so um i think the whole immersiveness of what i experienced really throwing my i mean i didn't really know what i was expecting either so i arrived there and you know you were told that there was no running water you had to get it from a well there was no lights at certain periods of the day and you just got used to it because there was no alternative so i think that immersion um is so important and i'm pleased to see that tourism is now heading that way as far as um let's say younger generations are wanting to really experience a country rather than just saying yeah i've been to you know sort of a continental style hotel where you know a hotel room could be exactly the same whether it's in berlin or barbados it looks exactly the same and i think travel is about exploration and really throwing yourself into a culture and understanding it from grassroots up and and that's really what engages me still when i'm lucky enough to take a holiday once in a while well so this is just leading perfectly into probably my favorite question which is how do you daniel see the future of the travel industry of tomorrow well i think i think it's sort of it's that just that it it needs to um provide a window into different cultures um different destinations and not taking your country with you you know this is not about so from an english person this is not about putting your pg tips and if you don't know what those are those are e-bags uh taking your tea bags with you in a plastic bag and traveling to the other side of the world so you can still have your cup of tea with your breakfast it's not about that it's about leaving your life where you live your customs your routine behind you and experiencing something different where you're immersed in a different culture um and you know then when you come back you can say that you have been to berlin or barbados completely different locations and those experiences shouldn't be the same so i think that's certainly the way to go as far as my topic as far as animal animal tourism uh animal engagement in tourism i think there needs to be two things um well three things i for a start i don't think um travel businesses should distance themselves from animal issues i know speaking to a lot of our clients is that they find because they've been pressured by both travelers and ngos about certain activities they're they're saying oh we'll remove we will remove all animal product from our offerings and we will just focus on city breaks and you know cultural experiences but not animals i think that's the wrong move because unless people really experience the animals in their own environments doing what they do i'm not talking about a captive situation um and actually understanding the animal until that happens you won't get the empathy and you won't get the respect and you won't get the need for their better protection so i think there needs to be a more reconnection with nature rather than a deep you know rather than decoupling from nature i think that's number one number two is that the tour operators need to uh offer activities with animals where they where the welfare of the animals are guaranteed and that's fairly easy to do you can employ Animondial to identify that or you can do checklists or auditing and and that kind of thing but there's definitely ways that you can ensure that you're selling the right product at the right time to the right customer um and then lastly is that tourism can be a force for good and where there are these problem issues such as elephant interactions such as uh keeping whales and dolphins in captivity where they perform or you can swim with and and things like this tourism was part of the problem because they sold that there was the demand they sold the tickets they drove the interest um now we know scientifically that these kind of practices are detrimental to animals and in some cases to the people involved but just removing the custom is not going to be the solution so tourism needs to work with the supplier modify the product the activity that the traveler engages with and then over a step-by-step period we phase out the problems and create something innovative great but also really great for the animals involved because a lot of the animals in captivity are going to be in captivity for life purely because they can't be rehabilitated there may not be this the habitat left for them to go into or the the quantity of habitat required so we have to find out the solutions but tourism has to be part of that it it's not the culprit it's the solution that's my nutshell for that question i just love how you ended that and i'm like we could just end but i want to ask you one more question go for it so then daniel what legacy do you want to leave behind you have uncovered and talked through so much today what legacy i'm not sure legacy i mean um from from a personal perspective um i think what what i just encourage people to do is not take everything at first value to look online to look you know widely to look either side of you to look behind you to look in front of you up and down and then you make your decision as to which path to take rather than just seeing what's in front of you and walking forward or walking backwards there are there are many many options i'm not sure that's a legacy i'm not one to think like that but i i think that's what i would encourage people to do is think outside the box don't put things in silos think about everything's connected you know animal welfare animal protection is so relevant to biodiversity protection so relevant to climate action so relevant to preventing the next pandemic you know covid19 has devastated the world there could be another covid 2021 2022 or a different disease and this is because of over exploitation of nature and we need to really regenerate nature really respect it and i think um recognizing that interconnectivity and that we're part of that is really the way forward daniel i absolutely have enjoyed our time today and everything that you've just shared with us and thank you for just talking through these very complex real things and also sharing kind of what the future could look like and how we can get to a point but yeah fingers crossed i think i mean there's a lot of there are a lot of problems that we need to address and and i think it's very easy for us as individuals us as people who really want to see meaningful change to to get disillusioned or you know just over overpowered by it saddened by what the future could well hold but i think we've for the sake of us the sake of humanity for the world for environmental sustainability for the planet we have to think positively and we have to recognize that us as individuals but us as you know a community we can really uh encourage meaningful change and that's the way forward yes most of you summarized it so much better than i could so thank you you're very welcome i really appreciate spending time with you today and that brings us to the end of our journey and so if you've liked what you've heard and you want to hear more please subscribe to our email list at risetravelinstitute.org/subscribe and if you haven't got a grasp of this yet but here at the rise travel institute we really really do believe that travel is a powerful tool for positive transformative change and if you're a college student you know studying abroad or thinking about that gap year a young professional wanting to get out and spread and see the world or just anybody really wanting to travel i want to invite you to head over to risetravelinstitute.org and learn more about our educational courses we'll be back soon with another episode but until then keep roaming keep learning and continue to be a rise traveler this podcast is an extension of the rise travel institute a 501c3 non-profit committed to empowering young travelers through educational programs research study tours and scholarships visit risetravelinstitute.org to learn more
2021-11-13 07:40
