Greg Ryzhov. Exploring the Future of Healthcare Technology.
hi hi guys my my guest today Greg ROV uh one of the most prominent Health Tech uh fed Tac CTO in Berlin and uh you know we we happen to meet today just to share our regular ideas and thoughts about technology hi Craig Hi T nice to meet you and thanks for inviting me on your podcast and just to kick it off you know um you know you are in the big number game when I'm saying big number game like you know there are startups with u couple of thousand users you know when I look at uh clue and this is what what you're uh what you're doing right now or before the my probably uh second favorite startup in the world Urban Sports Club you know you're solving problems that for many um is a luxurious point to reach so you are in the basically in the mass Market what is is it you know how different it is from what you've done before maybe just share your experience about con conson Pro being in the big number games oh yeah I I actually enjoying it quite a lot and it's not really about big numbers but specifically clue is about um having direct access to um to the user of our product so it's a direct to consumer product uh we have more than um 10 million uh users and it's really great that you you get all this feedback all the um suggestions uh complaints you can really solve uh like specific uh people issues uh previously was also interesting with uh with Urban sports club because it's a it's a really as you mentioned it's a great product um connecting people uh to to uh to sport students inspiring them to to be more active and uh and Lead healthy lifestyle so that was also quite um quite empowering and U great to um because it was such a such a nice product it was really easy to to get in touch with uh Sports enthusiasts and uh know about what they would like to do what kind of information they'd like to to see on the product and so on did you have previously yeah yeah to do sport yourself like when you were there oh yeah I mean it's uh it's right like a kind of multi-level dock fooding right so you you need to use your product but at the same time you you need to use what what your product is offering so it was actually quite nice and um it creates a feeling of U togetherness because like it wasn't just like me you know like we were discovering new sports from from I mean like we had team event which was a pole dancing so people like employees are like tried to like what it is to actually um like what what this kind of sport um is I think po dancing is one of the hardest gymnastic activity that one could imagine it's it's definitely not easy so there is a absolutely no laughing about that but you know staying with this analogy eating your own duck food uh how do you actually do the customer uh Discovery or collecting feedback at clue uh it clue or maybe maybe just you know just for our audience maybe just like a two minutes uh elevator pitch what is clue what are you doing what is the uh you know mission and vision for the next years to come so clue is the um reproductive Health um app that helps um a lot of people a lot of women wom and people with Cycles to uh to get in tune with their body and understand uh like what like track their symptoms and U be able to better understand their health and um affect you know or improve it uh moving forward there are a lot of um anecdotes we have about people while using our app being able to uh discover some like or being d noosed with uh some issues that otherwise they had for for a very long time period and doctors weren't just um accepting that or wouldn't confirm the diagnosis because uh they were lacking data so providing this data um Equity equality uh to um to women people Cycles that's one of the missions as and then stay with the topic how difficult it is actually to uh to build mass Market product and that field yet still give a feeling to user that you know it's personal well first of all uh we I think have of one of the best um customer support in in the in this kind of market so we really trying to be in touch with with our users through multiple different channels so it's like uh our direct uh support like we have real people uh who are well aware about our product um about the domain of the female health and can actually help to not just solve an issue with um with the app but advise people on on specific issues that they might be uh might be facing so then is like a channels we we with different channels we have social media we actually our product team is doing user interviews multiple per week so we are in the like constant like permanent state of being in touch with with our users learning from them um taking their feedback taking their complaints reacting on it and delivering improved uh experience back uh through our product was it uh any did you have a funny feeling what kind of startup am I going to be doing like because it's it's it's it's tailored for female uh primarily for female like I at least from the outside perception I mean like first thing that that was actually a question I got asked uh during the interview and uh you like you never think about it that it's somehow connected but it actually is so we have like our like females in our lives like uh a a lot right so I have wife I have a teenage daughter so I can actually relates to a lot of things that happening in their life and uh honestly I'm I'm really um appreciative that I can contribute to uh help them on first on the like literacy topic and like being educated uh from the uh you know like scientific sources rather than just learning about uh certain things from their friends or families um and the second of on of all actually like help them to deal with uh with certain um things in in their lives you know I'm I'm I'm I'm recently it's probably come with the age the older we get the more conscious we become about our uh body and U uh longetivity and um what you're doing is basically um you know helping helping people helping user to stay really conscious about their biology and I'm I'm just wondering if you if you already untapped that potential of user treating an app very consciously How likely is it to start adding on more and more to clue like I don't know some kind of explainability of your blood results or explainability of your uh blood pressure because like like let let me just keep keep on with my questions yeah like if I ask you you know my my blood pressure is 120 by 170 whatever like whatever we we normally get I wouldn't know if it's good in my for my age for my body type or bad and I always thinking damn would it be nice just to have like results but better better explainable absolutely I mean I'm totally with you more or less in the same I guess age group right so i' really like to know about is it normal and that this is the question um a lot of users on our platform asking it's like am I normal because there is like might be they might be going through some experience that um they might might feel it's like totally unique and like no one else has it gives people anxiety um and so on so actually like this is one of the one of the questions that um that we'd like uh them to answer through through our product um we we have like a lot of data collected as you can imagine from like people tracking their symptoms um recently we started a focused uh like work on actually giving back to uh to our users providing them with um with insights with statistics about um about their health and helping them on this like Journey uh like discovering is it normal or um or it's better to actually see a specialist do you imagine uh I don't know next year like just like you know moving forward start adding on more and more towards what you have already in your portfolio or clue will always going to be in this Niche with uh how did you frame it reprodu reprod Ian it's a reproductive Health reprodu reproductive health so I think one aspect is there is a lot to do in in this Niche right because it's actually it's something that um females liveing with from uh basically their first period till um the last period and and Beyond so it's really kind of a life companion uh product um as you can unink so recently we launched um a peram menopause feature that expands the uh the life stages that we support and yeah but like the the number of life stages is finite uh there is like an nend to it but there lot like there is a huge depth in terms of what we can U do and what kind of functionality we can provide for uh for each of the stages great and and if if we're talking about like you know bringing the live companion in terms of Technology because technology always change and evolve what is your uh Tech stack uh for the for the mobile apps it's a native um at the moment so we we using Swift for iOS with like Swift UI and um cotlin uh with like a jetpack family like jet pack composed specifically on Androids um I also want to say that our apps are pretty modern we just uh rebuil them um last year after like having Legacy for almost 10 years uh with a lot of changes you can imagine what what code uh looks like after after 10 years of like active development so we actually built a pretty uh slim um app where on which we can iterate super fast which is super stable um honestly like in the whole my career I never seen such stable app uh in terms of Crash rates and and so on so yeah um that's I would say it's pretty modern tax Tech that we're currently using and yeah we're looking further how how we can make it better um especially in the area of the artificial intelligence and like figuring out what what else like how can we improve uh delivery of in insights to to our users have you been playing around with uh I don't know Apple watch uh the OS that you know uh allows basically people to have their uh yeah period tracks right in the watch yeah because up Apple is quite like you know pushy when you have like one e ecosystem covered and it just rolls out to any other I I think that's what Apple does right and they've been really good at it they been really trying to cover um a lot of use cases from the uh like a breadth perspective um in terms of the depths um I think as it's our top priority probably we would be uh better in terms of actually like digging deeper into uh into reproductive Health topics and like definitely Apple like as well as Google as any other producer of um wearables let's say um it is really a great insights or data we can uh we can get and like help to proove our um our assessments our results when we were preparing for this uh podcast the main topic is always AI on the on the top of people's mind and you know how How likely it is actually that let's say the next version of sha GPD and by the way they've just just just announced the the new like a turbo chat with all kind of new features would be I'm I'm just driving up scenario that I say okay you know my period started today just like remember this date and then then uh drive up all the uh simulation what's going to happen next because I believe that in theory your app also works based on specific time time stamps and then predictabilities and analytics of what what might happen and you know how to behave in a specific um you know like time time zone How likely you would compete with ch GPT in the next couple of I would say mounts not years because the time goes so fast right now I mean I don't know if compete is the right word um I think it's U it's about actually um so if you think of it there is no like in the end it's like a personal person Health right and I think the compete in this area it gets us somewhere where you know like it's actually not like not the benefit for the person is uh is on top of the prioritization or you know like doing something but rather figuring out how can you make more profit from it so that's kind of my personal perspective on things but I think utilizing Chad gipt or any other form of AI for the variety of aspects uh that we we can have that definitely uh it's going to happen like there is there is no really other way around it in the current um in the current environment well maybe not in a German Market because uh in Germany and this is what I what what I've learned in U by being also in a medical sector right now people don't have a habit to to pay pay for their medicine and actual uh to be kind of uh conscious enough to be a self-pay there's always like this uh institution of uh crank con or basically P like a pension pension State ins insurer who would cover that up and if we stay with that because you're you're private up up like you the users pay premium to to get an insights was there any uh consideration and the um for the for this product to be covered by K conas in Germany I mean definitely yes so and um like maybe just taking a step back um while ger like while while we based in Germany and uh we we are protected like all data protected by gdpr and so on um our main Market is actually the United States so um we we had a product which was certified by FDA um and uh yeah we had it running for a year collecting Insight so there is actually um we we developed good connection to um to like Health Care Providers say in the United States and here and so on so we we are in the again the permanent state state of like figuring out what's the better path to um address people health and help them and and definitely honestly if having insurers paying for that that's a great benefit yeah the FD FD FDA is the uh for the listeners it's a and administration what is it what is it again like Food and Drug Administration Food and Drug Administration why why food are they also a suppl they look at everything yeah probably yes yeah I've heard like you know one of my favorite uh podcast is Andrew huberman or uh leex fredman and they they they they many time they have guests and they all uh call the FDA either evil or greater evil with the good intention so basically you know although they they have this uh you know patient uh Patient First mentality but until until you get there basically there is either like the corporate always wins and otherwise I mean I don't know like because you've been going through this process we you know I've I've only have experien a different type of certification um if you want to be like a medical op that is able to be subscribed by the prescription by doctor you need to have you need to be a medical product yeah um or medicine product how we say it in Germany and a lot of time when I read these you know compliance do docs I don't understand does it even make sense but like you know the way it's been written it looks like it's been designed still for The Med medical devices where they operate as a in a surgery room and not for the digital product yeah exactly that that's exactly how it is all like majority of Regulation is designed to treat software as a medical device as a real physical medical device which is not uh 100% aligned with uh agile methodologies that are um like basically adopted by by software development since you know almost 30 years if not more um but um it is exactly like that we are also regulated as a uh software ascal device um but we actually trying to get say like the the positive aspect of that because you know as a software engineer you always talk about oh the importance of documentation the um how great it is if you can uh connect the certain bug or issue to a specific feature that was developed at a certain point in time um and like have the proper postmortem processes and so on and so forth I I Curr I personally see that uh compliance um helps in in a lot of this um areas so I I wouldn't I wouldn't call compliance topics as like evil but rather you know we can coexist it's definitely possible to uh to move fast uh and be compliant you know uh touching touching upon that topic we we've been going through the isms certification and that requires exactly the uh traceability of every work unit that goes through software development process so when you're doing when you're merging your uh pull request uh in the in the head of a u message you write the um the ticket number yeah from jir yeah yeah and then uh so every merge pull request is kind of like a representation of a j board so it I actually yeah I was at the beginning I was saying what the what the heck like you know what do you want me to to do with that but once it start working I realized there is a lot of kind of chronology that you could leverage for for a benefit but only in some parts some some other parts I I'm still quite a you know uh rebeling against so question to you as a CTO of that organization and it looks like you've you've managed FDA and many other certification uh how to stay sane and still be Innovative to how to take risks basically uh in such a regulated environment I mean first of all like risks is the main part of this regulated environment right so like while while you developing something you are always looking into how to mitigate those risks and what kind of controls you put in place um to be able to um to mitigate those risk or reduce them to uh like to to Bear a minimum before I went into uh Health um and like Fitness uh industry I was working mostly in operations so Logistics supply chain warehousing and so on there are a lot of processes so you actually like you help build systems that help people to get through this routine processes through automation through um like you know speeding things up like some performance or like algorithmical improvements if it comes to like fulfillment and so on so I honestly think that uh like a regulated environment is the like it's the environment with predefined process where you can actually um first automate it like automate a lot of uh steps of this process and the second is this process actually enforces accountability so you really need like you have uh people or roles that are responsible for um for making certain decisions which is also um I'd say it's it's good um you have you have accountability by Design you have like processes that you can speed up by Design so you do it and then you can focus on creative stuff you can figure out actually okay hey there is this risk let's let's figure out something to to mitigate this or it's it's just it doesn't stop Innovation otherwise you know there won't be any innovation in the field of Health uh and I think this industry um is like grew a lot over past say like 100 years or something well it looks like we grew we grew a lot and we grew fast but you know once you start diving in into into like a medical sector or you it does it doesn't need to be General gener German or or American um even the fact that data patient transfer is sent in hl7 standard which is coded in uh uh in the format that's been designed in pre- Internet era so this ADT connection comes down to like before before Jason before we had Json now they start adapting to this new methodology of fire where you could you know be uh file agnostic but still like my challenge right now with every time you talk to a clinic hospital or like a chain of clinics and very first question how do we integrate with you and it's a puzzle basically there is a always like you know this elephant in the room oh we actually don't do it it's someone else like you need to we need to talk to this company the other company we just provide like a medical service the other comp company provides compliance the other one server management so somewhere at the end at the value chain there is somebody who could answer your question how do we connect and then it turns out that connection isn't even possible because like I don't know some legal some legal issues so you know I'm curious how do you think about like technology being a driver of innovation or is it even possible or we still going to be just optimizers like in logistics we only optimize some specific algorithm speeds and quality but Innovation is still going to be done somewhere else that's a good question thank you uh well I mean it's a I think currently the the the most of evolution is happening on the like software side of things um and while uh the whole kind of maybe regulations or like catching up to that or catching up to the uh like possibilities that that new software brings um mindset I think still mindset is changing like mindset is already um I was I was written some um statistics couple of years ago um and there is a like in Germany specifically 40 or 50% of young doctors that's uh like that starts at uh like practices like they they are asking for um for like a software for like improved uh systems to to be able to do their job to improved you know communication uh like uh data transmission and so on I mean the demand is there um in general I mean like reg regulated environment is lower to catch up but I think it is already happening like technology drives Innovation uh it's just you know maybe there will be some some Tipping Point when uh when regul regulatory side catch up um and it all going to go like uh start moving exponentially and it it is changing really it's like from the from the younger generation people who grew up with mobile phones um with computers with like technology everywhere it is going to change they just like won't be able even to do their job like in in some governmental institution without uh using the uh the tools and services that they used to so I think it's it's just uh it is helping it is changing maybe in this particular area is going a bit slower but um it the Innovation is happening it is happening the question is if it's happening in our backd door or not I was yeah sure I mean but you know it's uh I I know like a friend of mine he is working on on the uh platform that helps to um modernize this medical uh record and uh the the doct workstation uh sort of software um it's a lot of work it's a huge amount of work you have to you know like visit a lot of um cabinets let's say but in the end uh in the end the there is a demand and there is like a huge desire to have those areas be on par with what's happening in and say other companies that are less Reg I was I was listening to podcast with Joe Rogan as like probably everyone knows him so he uh he had this uh treatment done with uh I think it's called uh uh uh stum cells so basically some kind of like you know Innovative way of injecting um this kind of you know native material into broken knees and shoulders but it's not permitted in us so they they all do this in Mexico and I um I've been res researching this uh Innovation clinics about like you know the the those who experiment with things that not normally allowed in Germany or us they they always either in Mexico or in Bahamas or in some kind of like you know exotic States but this guy seems to basically come up with all this crazy [ __ ] or even remember this Chinese Doctor Who who cloned a human now he's in prison I forgot his name but he was like a very famous doctor for for cling human uh he was also doing these experiments outside of us but then they know they got him so I'm just like you know I'm I just wonder how how it's going to look like in a couple of years uh Greg looking back at your uh personal track record of stuff that uh you know you could say okay in this company there was a single killer feature that actually change I don't know the history of the company would you be able to like say that was there some like if you look at the clue or uh or previously Urban sports club was there something like you know mother feature or killer well killer feature normally it kills but like a mother feature is like the most important feature that you could group everything else around would you would you would you name name this kind of feature for clue and uh the previous uh startups that you were building if you asking for a silver bullet that would probably stuff related to uh monitoring and observability it is not user facing but the amount of benefits you get as an engineering team that just overweights uh like almost every user user facing feature that that you deliver because you know that your platform is stable you know like when the issue is happening before it gets you know escalated to uh to support or somewhere in in social media um you you actually know how your your platform is behaving so I think um in like throughout my history like a main focus from like a day Zer was on improving um observability um of the platform then improving reliability on the platform so that what I I would say is the the killer feature that changes a lot um for for the company and how it operates so that's that's really kind of uh would be my answer like super interesting because like uh observability tools or uh monitoring tools is not the first uh you know the the first thing that is normally integrated you you yeah and that's very unfortunate yeah that's very unfortunate exactly what are you using for uh monitoring observability I mean we're using day to dog I don't know I don't want to advertise I have experience with other tools so uh I I use I think like the most of the main players and it's really it's less about the tool more about the mindset and the um kind of the approach you you have um to software development where um obser ability comes like if not first but like really like a second is the least place you can put it yeah I we we use data do too uh I love everything but pricing oh well but other otherwise great great tool like you know we we actually use it for all kind of monitoring in including like you know real time user monitoring and like you know what what they do what kind of video they watch ET ETA I mean honestly it's just like where where to invest right so there are some companies who underinvested and so on and when you know something happens uh people start actually uh thinking about that but it's a bit too late um so I'd really I'd really like to to prioritize those topic topics and and Greg like just to play uh again with you you and I we we we we about to start a new company in the medical sector and you are known for uh for building great teams so one thing that I've already uh learn from you so before we even you know like code our backand and then start thinking about architecture we need to uh really think about observability and user uh Analytics and like platform analytics so we need to have this layer of uh understanding what is happening and then build on top so this is this is covered but how do we how do we attract great talents how do we build great engineering culture that is resilient actually to elevate us above any other competitors in the market I mean what uh worked for me or what I feel works for me um is um kind of trying to be as transparent as you can be when it comes like with people when it comes to actually um addressing why like why are we doing something like what's the problem I trying to address um and and just kind of be be honest and direct right right so um then when people have this Clarity of why are we doing um I mean for sure there is like the emotional component some people can commit to certain things some people cannot um but I think just like having the um the eye level uh dialogue with with folks um works for me so I I honestly um I never isolated myself from the team so I would like to think of myself as a as a part of the team as being approachable being on more like a helping side rather than just you know uh running around screaming on everyone but um I think having this like honest relationship like I Lev relationship with with your team uh helps to to actually make make this team um a high performance um Team what what about if we uh got in a team then have and have some toxic members and they already start like I don't know was was there any well sure I'm sure you had a lot of um stories to share how to deal with toxic members or how how to eliminate toxicity in a team an engineering team there is always some some level of toxicity there here and there I mean again through uh timely and direct feedback right so uh there is a tendency of like maybe recently so like that I see a lot um of like conflict avoidance so people tend to not bring topics that um uncomfortable or that may frustrate someone else and it just makes the conflict grow to the um to the extent where the environment becomes toxic just because certain things um are not being addressed in time so I think U basically calling calling things by by their names um trying to eliminate number like reduce number of elephants that you have in the room uh with you would would really help to um to address situations that might be might becoming toxic and if you identify the situation uh as I mean like toxic is really is like a just a it's a weird uh term to use because you know some people tend to call toxic just behaviors that they they don't like personally but it's it's just about them not about the the other person um but if you really feel that the the team morale um is going down then very important to react on on thing fast and not let it Let It Grow but Greg you you L the team of uh various sizes I don't know you had like a what was what was the biggest team you had I think it was around like 90 people 90 people well that that's that's a very big engineering team so you probably had different teams or squads or whatever like a chapters depends on the structure so normally when you when you already building this environment or you are in this environment you don't interact with individuals you normally have engineering leads where you interact on a daily basis but your one-on on with team members you know depends on the the size but you could you could not talk mounts with some some guys especially if you work in the in the um remote environment and then your engineering leader comes to you and says hey you know actually you know there there is this and this situation so I'm asking like for you for your tips how do you actually make sure that you operate on this you know strategic level but still be remain part of the team this is how you frame it I mean it it again it depends like what what are you bringing into the team right uh you you have all these team leads uh or any other leads for a reason and like this reason is that you cannot manage the above the I think it's like 15 uh people like you possibly cannot maintain the level of of uh communication that's enough for like creating trust but people that you um that report to you or that you manage you really need to trust them so if some like I think I I also kind of tell to uh to considered trust as a as a default setting in my relationship with with my reports so in this case I think that that creates certain like a again environment which I I believe is good so people uh empowered to make certain decisions they know their mandate they can um act accordingly I can only support I can provide some insights can provide opinions but in the end the accountability is with the person um and the other thing is how to be the part of the team is to try to um like share your experiences um share the knowledge you have like try to bring it to the team but uh find the right way so it's like should be really oh I know better and you should do like exactly like this uh but at the same time if in for certain things um you just know okay it's like this industry practice or like you know better but like still you need to put effort uh in properly selling certain things to the team so they they get Buy in they see you as a again on eye level it's it's really just like comes down to for for certain things I mean you you really need to consider everyone as as equal and don't play oh I'm CTO card every every time you want to make certain decisions so that's that's how I go how how often have you been uh actually playing the C your card or been guilty of sneaking up some decisions into individual Team Planning not often I'd say I like maybe like it it's more often happens on the on the organizational side of things it's like team design as you said you know like there might be certain you know like when the organization goes through different stages there might be certain adjustments um in a team structure so I think this is where like from the structure perspective I could play this card just because like the context is is wider so I I have like a maybe some other aspect that um are not known to uh to the team lead but honestly like when it comes to software development like Engineers know better than us like last time I I wrote code was I think four years ago already so um I need to trust them I need to uh like just figure out how what's the what are the principles that I cannot um like sacrifice or like the team should should have and how I can ensure that uh you know team team leaves uh to these like principles Greg just for the uh way of advice um um because I've been known to play this card a lot you know like for maybe it's also part part of my personality and I I uh I I like to wa Bic like before I was uh I was saying like I love I have to move fast and break things so famous Facebook thingy not always working in regulated environment but uh you know throughout my time I've learned to trust my team and actually more uh buil empowered team structure where you delegate your ownership and accountability um directly on individual however sometimes I have this feeling oh my God it goes too slow it goes to SL it could have been done faster we could have simplified this we could have we could have skipped a few steps and just I don't know like make that simpler and I and then I join refinement meetings and I say oh what about this and that so and you know you play this card although you don't you don't impose Authority but it feels in the room oh my God this guy is here and he's my manager and if I say no you know I don't know what's going to happen so you you do this unintentionally but you've actually learned uh not to do it so how would you advise or how would you coach someone like me and say hey Sergey you know like you know I've been there I've done that there is a better way what should I what should I do um so like how I learn it for myself I think it's uh it's kind of differentiating between um I don't care and I let it uh I let it go so I don't care would be like oh just like yeah whatever like whatever happens like really I'm just like I'm just here like not gonna um not going to interfere like Let It fail and whatever um Let It Go is uh for me it sounds more like empowering so you need to let people fail as well I don't know if you look back in your history like how did you learn things like you probably learn from a lot of failures right I learned for sure like I you know uh all these kind of like incidents that that were created by me in the past like this learning or experience is still with me and it allowed me to grow it allow allowed me to to be where I am so I think you need let to let people fail um you need let people make decisions uh not to prove them wrong but like to actually give them an opportunity to learn and if you have this opportunity like if they learn then you actually uh will will spend like way less time worrying and uh trying to interfere with them and you know like they will they will be autonomous and and empowered but like you need to take uh you need to keep like uh to hold them accountable it's like that that's the key right so if they fail you really need to ensure that the learnings are somehow uh like reflected in some shape of form and then um transmit it further so if you lose learnings from the certain incident it's just like yeah uh as you didn't learn you're just like failed basically but if you failed then learn that's that's actually pretty good um outcome so if I um um um like recop it so if someone fails it needs to be also linked with the postm or basically some kind of like you know investigation that that would lead for these individual or a team to to learn from mistakes yeah yeah like and if if if if we if we repeat the same mistake then then it's basically something something is wrong with the process Well yeah if we keep repeating the same things like that means that we we don't learn and I think uh in a lot of um performance platforms or Career Development platforms learning is the one of the um criteria of of progression so you just see why learning is not happening and then address that GRE what is your golden or like you know I wouldn't call it Silver Bullet engineering kpi like how how do you if you if you come and see different teams how you measure them against each other well uh I don't that's uh I think you like if you measure against something that should be the the top targets or like goals that you set for uh teams and individuals um I I honestly like I kind of feel the same with we say recruiting I'm not a big fan of comparing people with each other I'm rather go with like okay is this people fit for the job yes or no pros and cons um and like make a decision but like really when you start comparing um that uh doesn't doesn't get you to to the right places um in terms of the kpi I mean honestly H so one thing that you can tell for sure that there is no silver bullets like abs like it does not or at least like no one figured it out um there are a lot of aspects uh there are a lot of things that you can look into um to evaluate performance of the team or performance of an individual but is really uh it's like a combination It's a combination of I think um some more kind of qualitative things like again like learning collaboration communication and so on then the uh the outcomes which is what like what team uh can achieve or what is what team is achieving how they are doing against their their goals and targets and uh the output so I I personally think that the output is the the same met like also metric that you need to look into um and it basically goes the number of say deployments um whatever p i I know I like the very controversial thing to say like looking at poll requests or tickets but honestly uh if you look at at it from the say uh from a distance you start seeing patterns so it's like if your team is relatively stable so you can actually see patterns that are related to certain like decisions or events um that affect output and also like one one one team is like went through this you know like storming norming uh phases like it does have like have consistent output so the fluctuation you can actually see and use it as a as a metric as well yeah pretty interesting uh I'm I'm asking this question because it's it it appears on every um discussion like every time you have engineering uh versus business you know you always want to establish some kind of like you know performance kpi and many believe that uh number of deploys or number of releases um seems to be like the the uh like quite Universal metric however I've also started to look at my board as you mentioned when you come from perspective and I look at releases and I see One release contains two tickets the other release but might might be eight or 10 so it's basically there is the you can only be consistent if you if if you are inside inside the team and you know what's been shipped otherwise it's basically a nice number to communicate but otherwise doesn't reflect on the on the reality yeah I mean like deployment is also tricky number because say like um on mobile you you cannot I mean you can but it doesn't really make sense if you release multiple times per day I'm not talking about you know like feature flags and and uh and like a over the- year updates but in general like if if you if you're using traditional methods for the mobile development uh you are quite restricted and there is also dependency on sech party that's been like Apple and Google reviewing your um your apps but it's definitely one of the key components so we we have achieved like a weekly releases on on our mobile platforms it helps a lot it helps also to um to create this sort of like feeling of um say relative safety because you know like if something goes wrong mildly like if there is a noncritical bug or the design Improvement that you need to do or yeah or like something around that um there is a release coming in seven days or like less so you're just like it's it's predictable uh like velocity of the releases and that creates kind of feeling of oh yeah okay so we forgot it this time but it's coming like next time um so I'm not talking about like incidents where you need to hot fix and like so on so but in general kind of creates this like a bit of a warm safety feeling of yeah like I can I can actually change it next week and not wait for another months have you noticed uh increase of velocity when they you know how fast they do reviews and uh up app store and and and Google Play because like be before it uh I was at fre sometimes we could have waited three to four days uh an up store but they they getting I I wonder if they also start using some kind of machine learning algorithms if there is no major changes in the code because my recent experience I was uh uh renewing Android application it was only like slight text changes and it was renewed within a minute so no human would def did look at that and I was probably okay so the pipeline works like okay no code changes automatically flag is uh you know approved so with I wish it will be done by something yeah something artificial maybe it's going to be not days but hours in the future so there's going to be like a threshold for mobile applications to be released on a daily basis let's see let's see uh the you know to wrap it up like I would love to ask who do you normally use as your coach or advisor or somebody who do you like who do you look up to to become a better aito thanks for your question it could be your mom I don't know like someone some everyone has someone in in their life no I mean like I think a lot of uh a lot of approaches that I use that they are coming from from my family like the the way I was I was raised what was um what was important for for for them and me and uh uh so yeah that's that definitely influenced uh me a lot I think I'm just like uh I'm trying to read a lot um and analyze stuff that that is coming from from like a different um different sources like I really cannot call it a name um that I would say okay that's a one name I can like maybe like on the personal level like one one um very influential CTO in my life was uh Christian hardenberg from um rocket internet so like we're gonna we're gonna take Christian tomorrow in the LinkedIn so Christian will get the I mean he's super great when it comes to you know figuring out what's good for for Engineers for business and so on so um like personally on me I think while we haven't really worked directly a lot but I was part of the uh of the rocket internet ecosystem for some time and uh yeah just like uh learning from like observing that that kind of gave me also a lot of yeah any recent authors or books that you read that made a um you know impact on what you do and how you do things uh just ordered today new book by ger orish um who is like the author of The pragmatic engineer uh pragmatic developer blog so let's see um there are really there's like a lot of good stuff around um yes staying pragmatic is very important in our trade so uh to um you know to to wrap it up um uh you know I'm going to ask Greg for more links uh some recommendations uh also his startups uh you know uh anything that he would like to share with us please find in the in the posts below the video and yeah and if you like to hear more um talks with um powerful and um mindful engineers and C in Berlin just uh uh subscribe and uh let's stay connected thanks a lot Greg and uh thank you thank you it was really a lot of fun and pleasure to join you yeah I I enjoyed it a lot thanks a lot and uh take care buddy yeah take bye bye
2023-11-15 11:41
