I'm. Nick Montfort, professor. Of digital media in comparative, Media Studies and writing I also teach at the struggle for poetic computation. In New York I study. Creative computing and develop compositional, art and poetry my. Computer, generated poetry books included shebang the, true list which. Is the first in recent. Using electricity series, from counter path and, hard. West turn, my. Digital projects, including, the deletion, esteems far between and, the. Translation, project renderings, these are all collaborations. Are available, Nick. And calm and. I. Have. MIT. Press books some, collaborative, some individually, authored which, are the, new media reader Christi little passages, racing, the bean can can print char string to a five-point fly plus rant one go to ten that's. The reason why I have to introduce myself by, the way. And. Exploratory, programming, for the Arts and Humanities and, most recently the future. So. Next. Introduce Stefan. Helm right who's on the opposite. Side of the table who's, the elting, Morison professor. Of anthropology, he. Received his PhD in, anthropology from Stanford, his, research is focused on how biologists. Think through the limits of life as a category, of analysis, which. He's taken up in, three, books alien, ocean anthropological. Voyages in microbial seas, silicon. Second-nature. Culturing. Artificial, life in a digital world and most recently, sounding, the limits of life essays, in the Anthropology, of biology, and beyond. Well. On sabbatical this semester, Stefan. Holds fellowships, from. The, John Simon Guggenheim Foundation, and, at, the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced, Studies where, is completing a manuscript that offers an ethnographic account, of how, scientists, measure model and monitor, waves of, climate change, even. Though he is on sabbatical, with these two very very desirable. Fellowships. He's kind enough to join us for the panel so an extra measure of thanks is the bond for being with us today. Next. To me Adam. Horowitz, is a master, student in the fluid interfaces, group at the Media Lab his. Work aims to augment human awareness, translating. Advances, in neuroscience into. The, design of interventions, and interactive, experiences, across, the Arts and Sciences it. Works on how technology can show us parts of ourselves that remain otherwise invisible. Allowing. For introspection wellness. And wonder he. Has background as a neuroscience, Tech MIT, McGovern, Institute studying. Mindfulness, meditation and, my watering, and as, an artist scientist, at the marina abramovic, Institute, together tying together neuroscience, and performance art his. Work has been shown at the Khan Film Festival transmedia, stopped by Southwest the, Beijing media but you know.
SC. SC pompeya. And the Boston Museum of Fine Arts here. At MIT he leads the skunk works team of mighty hacking, arts his, current projects include the, microscopic, virtual reality adventures inside the human body along with the dream control and capture in the liminal space between. Caroline. A Jones or end of the table studies. Modern and contemporary art, the particular focus from its technological modes, of production distribution, and, reception, she is professor of art history in HTC. At the street hearing of criticism, of architecture, and art programming. She, was trained in visual studies, in art history at Harvard doing. Graduate work at the Institute, of Fine Arts in New York before, completing, her PhD at, Stanford University. Previous. To this she worked in museum administration an, exhibit curation, pulling physicians at, the Museum of Modern Art in New York and. The heart the Harvard University art museums or she also completed, two documentary, films. Beyond. Her work at those institutions, her exhibitions. And films have been shown at, the San Francisco Zoo in modern art Hirshhorn, Museum and sculpture garden in Washington see the harmonies in the tokyo boston. University art gallery and in my case list Visual Arts Center among. Other venues, caroline. Has written an edited number, books most recently the, global work of art which, focuses, on her ongoing research interest including, the globalism the agency of the artist and new media art. And. Finally. Agnieska, Courant is an, interdisciplinary, conceptual. Artist who examines, how complex, social, economic. And cultural systems, can, operate, in ways that confuse, distinctions, between, fiction, and reality or, nature and culture her. Work investigates. The, economy, of the invisible, in which immaterial, and imaginary entities fictions. Phantoms energy flows and emergent processes, influence. Political, economic, and ecological systems. She. Often collaborates, with scientists, including biologists. Anthropologists, photographers. Economists. Computer. Engineers and roboticists. Many. Of her works emulate, nature and, behave like living, organisms, self-organized. Complex, systems or bachelor. Machines. In. 2015, she did a commission for the facade of the Solomon R Guggenheim Museum. In New York. 2013. To 2014, she presented, a major solo, exhibition, at the sculpture Center there in. There. In New York in 2010, she Co represented, Poland at the venice, bienalle of architecture. Most. Recent exhibitions, include commissions for the, Guggenheim Bilbao SF, MoMA Cleveland. Triennial and. As. Well as solo, shows at. SCA. Emo MoMA. And the CCA in Tel Aviv for, works also been exhibited, at Palais de Tokyo the. Tate Modern in the kitchen. Victory, fries. Projects, Madonna Musa. And. Bone. Occurrence burned student. There Hagen Performa. Be any older. Agnieska. Is currently, the EDA, Reuben artist-in-residence, at, MIT. Is cast and old. Fellowships, at the Smithsonian, Institute, and the American Institute. Well. As you. Can guess we have a group with some. Relevant, expertise, in perspective, but also a. Diverse, group and I'd. Say that the four of you certainly. From. Different perspectives, you undertake, types. Of inquiry exploring. Asking, questions generating. New sorts of insights this is something, I think unites. People at, the University, of generally even if they're doing very different sorts of activities, there's, some how when they're taking inquiry so. Since our occasion. Here is discussing I'm, the eskas work at MIT as an artist I'd, like to ask how, she, inquires through art and then invite. The. Others of you to explain how artistic. Inquiry, is similar. To or different from the. Types of. Thank, you. Thank. You so much. Thank. You everyone. Joining. Me I. Like. The point of departure of my work is. I'm. The phenomenon, that nature of the culture that are. Examples. Of emergence, and collective intelligence. These. Phenomena, have been in various. Complex. Systems, complex. Systems. Can. Be a termite, colony. A human, society, human. Brain, the. Internet the, urban fabric or even the stock exchange, there are systems with many components and factors that are, so complicated that.
Are Often. Very difficult to. Anticipate. What kind of happen in them they evolve in, a nonlinear, way. And. I've. Been investigating these systems I want to show very quickly a couple of slides of my points, of departure of a couple of my works, I'm. Going to just comment it was like one, Center for. Image said this. Is an, organism that inspired. A lot of my works slime, mold it doesn't have any nerve nervous, system, but. Consists. Of singular. Cells, that when. Confronted. With some form of danger like of nutrients, or water and. Aggregates. In well in a super organism into, one unit and moves as one. Unit and displays. Signs, of intelligence, so, it can even go through a maze and in fact it was co-opted. For computation, by scientists, such, as Andrew. Yoga mats keep working, in a great britain who is, doing surgery. Who's. Running the center for unconventional computing. Using. Assignment. And other, organisms, to perform various operations. This. Is another, example of emergence, of collective intelligence and culture of bacterial colonies, that. Perform, group sake and the. Work of a Shelburne Jacob an Israeli scientist. Who discovered, that, certain bacteria for, example make a collective, decisions, where they let, they decide, to kill off half of the colony for, the collective. Good future. Good of the, remaining. Bacteria. And. So, it's kind of like a infective. Visualization, of a group saying one welcome. Consider. This. Is a social phenomenon that. Happened. On. The platform called reddit, about a year ago and about, 1 million people participated, in it it was a sort of virtual fictional. Country universe. Called the place or, each participant. Could place, a. Single. Pixel, wherever, they wanted in this virtual space and various. Emergent. Self, organized processes, emerged so, a lot of fictional, characters fictional, Nations counts. This is an example of one, of them and this is the black. Void. Another. Blanket. Departure for a lot of my research is. At, this branch of science that that analyzes and gross, artificial, societies and. It, started, in the early 90s closely at the Santa Fe Institute, by. Two scientists. Epstein, and Axel that some of this earlier research has been done by the economist. Thomas Schelling. It's. Basically. A. Way of using. Algorithms. To calculate, very, complex, systems of how societies, will behave the, interplay. Between individual. Decisions, of citizens. In a society so. Here are some examples of one. Of my words using the this. Artificial. Society models based. On the Tomas sherek the The Economist his model of self segregation. How it can actually be computed. These. Are the works, that, standing. From all this research. Thank. You these. Are the works this is a series called aai which. Are works. That I outsource. Crowdsource. To non-human. Agents, because I'm interested, in also forms, of non-human. Intelligence. In. The times when. A. Lot of scientists are talking about the. Fact that the. Intelligence, is not what, the mostly, Western culture, assumed to be individual. And located, in the brain but on the contrary its, distributed. And it's very external, to the brain and it, doesn't, have to be human, so. A lot of my work are also, taking. This as a kind of departure and so. These works were, outsourced. To the colonies of living termites, each. Each sculpture, is. Build by a colony of approximately. A million termites, that were supplied was alternative, materials. Such as. Pigmented. Sands. Particles. Of gold and crystals, and each, colony, is isolated. For about. 3-4 months and they just built and. Each. Form is different nothing, can be anticipated, and. There. Are these hybrid forms, that however, between. Nature and culture and what is really interesting that the, entomologist. Point, out how each single colony of exactly, the same species. Produces. Very different shapes of termite mounds which also corresponds, to a different, collective. Personality of, each colony, so, they just, like humans they can represent, different. Collective, personalities, or just like social movements, that sometimes. Can be dynamic, and fast sometimes, more slow dispersed, or concentrator. And headless, or not. So. This is an these, works also kind of related. To my interest in soft exploitations, present. Society. Especially. By corporations, using. Algorithms. To harvest data, of. Completely, unaware of this so this is like a distributed. Throttle of exploitation. That's. A continuation, of this work where. I am pouring. How. Think into abandoned, start right miles and they, form this negative, casts, of various so they are like internal portraits, of various societies they. Are put in an African, desert. And. This. These. Works. Entitled, the, end of signature, that I've done various, iterations of, I. Related. To. My. Reflections, about how.
The, Aggregated. Value. Of social capital can not only be exploited. Which. Is unfortunately, happening so often in contemporary societies, but it can also be. Precisely. Calculated. And can be used or, analyzed, for. A good cause and and then we should maybe, try to embrace, it so so. What I'm doing in this work is of I I developed. Together, with computer programmers, and algorithm. That morphs. Thousands. Of signatures that we first collect, and scan into, a collective, signature, and, I've developed this collective, signatures, for various social movements, communities. And and. Groups. The, first one was a facade. Of the Guggenheim. Museum. In New York and this is a collective, portrait, of all the visitors kind, of alluding. To the fact that viewership. Today, also became a form of labor a visible labor because. Audiences, are, constantly. Instagramming. Images, and circulating. Images and it became a sort of form of invisible, labor, and contributing, to the value of the artworks, this. Is on the. Cleveland. Museum of Art where this is all the employees. Of this, museum who donated their signatures, in this, community this is a community of people that make an one building, a new tract where. Which. Is like a last final. Island of public. Housing in the middle of like a privatized. Public. Space in the central Utrecht. This, is a, this. Is a project. That also uses like aggregation. Of human, behavior, but in this case to produce like a certain. Model of a, collective, Tamagotchi, or an, organism. Or an animatronic, soccer, ball in this case the piece of the title. Was. I object making a reference to Michel, Sarah's idea of like how certain objects need to be activated, as they're circulated, between agents, so, different movements, of, soccer balls from. Games played, online by various. Users. Internet, users for and. It's. Moving actually, it's a animatronic. Piece. And. Finally the series, of works that that. I realized. Here. At at, MIT they, started was a serious called production line where, I started, outsourcing. My works to human. Agents multiplicity, of human agents, working. On this new platform that in. My opinion is the beginning of the new working, class, the. Platform, is called Amazon Mechanical Turk, but. There are various similar, platforms, that exist and they allow for. Crowd-sourced. Labor. People. Working, on small tasks, in front of their computer. Screens online, around. The world and this. Platform can often, although not, always become, exploitative, and. But. Could, also be possibly, in the future are used for the public good because it allows for collective, intelligence.
Experiments. And it has been used for some social, experiments, so I took. Advantage of this platform to crowdsource some, of the works to thousands, of people also working worldwide, and this, series is called production, line where, each. Worker. Was. Asked to draw a single line and then they were. Fused, into this collective, drawings, that. Were, then output, it as you can see was a pant water as a one single line continuous. Line and then. So, each drawing and up represent. An amalgamated. Labor of in this case five hundred one thousand or two thousand people. That. Each. Line has been, drawn. In a different part of the world and, what is most important, about about, this works, is. That I, created, a system. That. Allows for profit sharing, so. It in a way it allows for siphoning, of the, money from the art market and redistributing. And among these workers, so, they are participating. In the profits, and when each of these works sells they are but they are being hired on the spot as they complete their. Work but, additionally. If the work sells the, the proceeds are evenly. Distributed, amount of the participants, because Amazon. Mechanical, Turk platform, allows for storing. Their IP addresses, so we can pay, them bonuses, at any point in the future of the work cells. This. Is a project. That I developed, here, already at MIT was, a generous. Collaboration. From the sea sale of a. Team. By Professor Lawrence Katz who is present, here and also. My. Rebirth, booth and. This. Work entitled. Assembly. Line and continues, the idea of how. How. To subvert. The, systems of Microsoft, exploitation, so in this case, we. We. Worked on the ways in which how people donate, their, volunteer, during their data their bio data online we, transformed, it to the, ways in which people. Taking. Selfies, or any kind of. Self-portraits. How, big would be aggregated into a collective, self-portrait, of this collective, worker that this new working. Class constitutes. So what you're looking at is like an aggregate, of about. 10,000. People, and photograph. Self-portraits, of like 10,000, people and then are aggregated, into one and then I on. The basis of several. Images. That we generated. At. Csail, I. Created. This 3d forms, that are these. Abstractions. That. Represent, is collective self portrait of this society and this. This project is now evolving further where, workers. From. The same platform, are going to put together abstract, machines from different machine parts. And. Lastly. I would like to show just. One of. The. Project that I did, here at MIT and have untitled, animal internet, and I collaborated, with. Adam. Horowitz, was present here as well, as Atmos. Camera anyway it's, over here somewhere and when. True Blood and a shower. And. It's. In. Many ways like a culmination. Of all this. Research. Between, non-human intelligence. And collective intelligence and artificial, intelligence so, what happens here is dead, inspired. By the. Phenomenon of animal internet where a lot. Of scientists, are tracking animals all over the world and on. The one hand by putting. Chips and animals, and that they can be followed digitally, but also by placing, cameras, in jungles, or in the North Pole and watching, completely. Wild animals without their, knowledge about. This. Phenomena, I I. Realized, that since, these animals, have a kind of hybrid life because many of them are followed. On, this webcams they, have web websites. Facebook, pages and a following of sometimes a couple of hundred thousand people so. It, creates this kind of hybrid. Reality. Between, wilderness. And and, culture. So. What we did together, with hugging, arts team is we, created this. Project, which consists, of two, real webcams. That are, broadcasting, real wild. And the most one is a tiger, in the jungle and, one is a, polar. Bear and the North Pole and we, here, at MIT built, too. Artificial. Animals so, they're animatronic. Animals we. Used artificial fur so, no animals were harmed and this, is and and they are basically. One. Of them the one in the upper, right corner was powered, by. A. Workers. Of the Amazon Mechanical Turk that sent as their, task which they were paid and they sent information about how they were feeling feeling, whether, they were tired, hungry angry, or, relaxed or hand happy and this, aggregated, emotions, like through.
Sentiment. Analysis, and. Different. Kind of. Programs. That we use and we. Converted. Into various behaviors out of this fictional. Animal in a kind of jungle arranged, internal. Environment, and the other camera is a swarm. Of, gerbils. Which, was like an assert, environment and this one is powered, by. Twitter. Scraper that we wrote so basically like we were monitoring. Twitter. Account, of all the protest movements in the world and what kind of sentiments. They are expressing. Whether it's frustration. Hope aggression. Whether. It's a positive and negative end and and, so this aggregated. Data. From different social. Movements, were then powering, a sugar. Scape model an artificial, society, model, that. Was translated. The behavior, of this. Swami. Thank. You. Thanks. Very much I want it so first of all I wanted to know because there's, five chairs I can see please please, come in you don't even have to sit in the front row please. Please come and occupy them. And. Thanks. Very much I guess Kapur so you you. Showed some images of your work you told us about your process, and your interest I wanted, to ask one more thing I wanted. To get. You to say something about how. You, work as an artist to do inquiry specifically. Because I've asked togethers to respond to this topic like how the way in which they acquire is, different, then more similar to artistic, angry, so, can you tell us I. Mean I was hoping that kind. Of that's my answer but of course well. You know I mean I I cooperate. Was very scientist but, I'm. Trying. For. My work not to be illustrative so. It's always somehow, twisted and, I really like crossovers. Between different, things that maybe wouldn't cross over in real life. And to. Establish. Connections, or dialogues between sometimes. Scientists, that maybe wouldn't. Normally meet and wouldn't necessarily, in a time work and. Even. If it leads to miscommunications. Or errors but this errors could be. Productive. So so. It's never you know although it is a cooperation with with, Sciences, and other professionals, there's, always a very, strong component or like our ISM. As I call it and, irrationality. And and. Slippage, --is and just unexpected. Nonlinear, things. Well. Thanks, very much I think that's very conservative and I think that that's very consistent, with with what, you've shown but you highlighted, these two aspects, that, your work is collaborative, it's, not just the termites. It's, lamebull but, but you're. Working collaboratively and, you're also. Interested. In. So. We asked, for. Perhaps. Inquiry. That's your question yeah. I'm. An anthropologist, and so. My mode of inquiry. Is ethnographic. Fieldwork and I. Spend time with people with, collectives. And. Try. To figure out what they're doing by, doing participant, observation by, interviewing, them I spent, a lot of time with scientists, in particular and.
You. Know I bring us out of tools to that inquiry which are things that are. That. I've gathered from the social theory toolkit. Which, include analytics, of gender and race sexuality, ideas. About belief ideas, about conviction. Hegemony. Practice. Ideology. This whole kind of toolkit, of things and, the. Idea is to bring those with me into the zone of inquiry hanging, out with people and see what they do and and. Sometimes, they can explain things and sometimes they break and, they can't explain things or people give me other categories, and say well no no this, is not really about. Whatever. You say it's about really it's about complexity, or really it's about non-linearity. Since I spend a lot of time studying scientists. I get a lot of that and, say no no you're you're saying that this is to do with culture and power but really it's, a scaling, problem, that's. About a certain kind of sort of nonlinear, dynamics, that properly understood as emergent phenomena, would reveal x y&z, you, know and then I can speak back to that and say well yes no. So. I think part of what I. Have, in common with agneta then is, that. Encounter. With the unexpected right. This empirical, work and then, the attempt to sort of to to. Find, something and encounter something that is. Surprising, within that but. Then also to sometimes you know be assertive about my own categories, and say this, is patriarchy. What, is going on with. This Cavanaugh thing at the moment that, is patriarchy, I am, not buying it. Sorry. Anyway. This, is daughter's prayer. Daughter's. Prayer. I. Think, so I was, originally signed up to be our respondent. Yeah. I I think, that it it's not. Immediately. Apparent I am at an earlier, stage of question and asking then fellow. Panelist so I will try to contribute productive. Confusion, or because. I am. Productively. Confused, perhaps my. Background. At the moment, is. A, mix of neuroscience, and art, and. I wanted to touch, quickly on why. I think that's a worthwhile mix, and why, is. A contribution in this conversation um I, think. Neuroscience, stands, out especially stands out an institute like. This, because, it is such a, unstable. Meeting ground, of objectivity, and subjectivity. It. Is a attempt. At a third-person study of first-person experience, with first-person. Experience. It is so contingent. And murky, um. It. Makes it really exciting to study it also means. That you don't get. To stand, on. Two, stable, feet in either, the. Realm of the, study of experience, or the creation of experience, so um my.
Interest. And exciting about against his work and and, modes, of inquiry were, similar. In, that there's a mix of stability. And instability there's. A clear. Picture that, comes out of a very, murky. Collection of parts. I'd. Say that, something. That's really nice in terms, of the collective piece that that, this sort, of subjective objective mixes, has, affected. Upon. Me is. A sense of myself as collective I. Studied. Here. A few, years ago in the neuroscience department largely. Neural, networks and which. Changed. My notion of self as a notion of. There's. A me in a little bit of jelly, I gotta. Get it and I'll get the jelly eventually, to, something, more like I am temporal. Dynamics, I am rhythm I am time I am waves so. The, the movement from functional. Neuroanatomy, as. A, sort of phrenology to one of instead. Dynamic. Networks, myself, as collective, and, then I. Take. It even further to. If. You if, you do something like a komissarov. I'm a patient and the neuroscience is somebody who's had their. Hemispheres, but. Something. That has stuck with me as a personal collective is you. Might think that when you cut someone's brain in half it started turns, off and it doesn't. People. Keep functioning quite well but. Some, develop alien hand syndrome which. People might have heard of but. You you you develop. Essentially. Hands that disagree so one might want to button up one might want to button down you develop. Hands that have different information streams to the world um one, is more verbal, one we have more sensory motor information um, and, it's. Interesting that you can break in that way but it's also interesting um that. If you were currently broken in that way broken, in, terms of being a collective even, you wouldn't know the. Notion that introspection, as an attentional spotlight is, a unifier, of many cells that. I might have at the moment I should invoke that but I might have at the moment a more, verbal a younger. And older Portuguese. Speaking in English speaking a, mix. Of selves, with a mix of knowledge --is and that my attentional, spotlight is, one of those and so what I see inside is a necessary unification. Of a possible, split collective. If. That makes sense has stuck with me in a big way. And that's exciting I. At. The moment mostly, study sleep. Which. Is also a weird way in which people break, very, predictably. If. You get. People at the right state of sleep they. Will lose syntax, they will pull memories from different parts of their, lives that they wouldn't pull when they were awake. They'll be more fluid, thinking the way more rigid thinking I, work specifically, in a weird. Sleep state called hypnagogia and, in that sleep state you have a really. Like deep, in version, of an, organizing principle to a collective intelligence which is that when. You're awake as. A as, a machine, you're generally, I I think. Designed, to associate, to things that are close together and make, predictions, about the world accordingly, um there, is a. Association. My head between water. Bottle water drinking thirst excetera I'll move towards it when one concept, comes, up in. Hypnagogia, you get a full inversion um it. Becomes much, harder for people to react to things that are closely associated versus. Associated, at long distance so you have, people have, faster reaction, times when you associate, a porpoise and a helicopter than, a porpoise in the ocean and.
This. Is exciting to me because it's like whoa I'm, a collective which I can't introspect on but, I can get down to base and, switch, those base rules and see a different collective in different states um if, that makes sense that the sleeping self first is not sitting so so the collective question touches on a lot of things I'm excited about um, personal. Collectives extended, and active intelligence. Which we'll probably get into later so I won't get into no. And, then lastly, excites, me because um, the. Reason I'm here. Is. That. Ignition. Agnus and Asia and many. Of us and Gary and we, look got, to collaborate on a project. In. Hacking arts and I think that hacking arts is a sort of nice. Demonstration of a certain organizing, principle, of emergence, where, I'm, not a personal believer in the idea that you can take a bunch of dumb parts and put them together and. Get something automatically. Intelligent, without some sort of organizing principle but I think that hacking arts kind. Of turns out like that you just throw a bunch of people who are really different into a room and they kind of bounce off each other and things pretty predictably, come out and that's really been. Very, exciting. For me as a, sort. Of person who gets. To guide that and can Gide that so I would yeah. I would say that packing words for. Me as a collective, is, there's. A there's, that, I think it's a cut above line there's, about. Emergence oh no, its Danny Hillis, it's, like we. How can a bunch of stupid things come together and be smart I'm really interested in hacking arts which how can a bunch of smart things come together and be stupid in, terms of producing. Absurdity. Or getting past utility, if, that dates hopefully, that's what we doing tonight all, that to say I am. Confused, by, my disciplinary, past I think it's a productive confusion, that contributes, to the, notion of being a confused, collective, which is how I introspect. Upon myself and also how I try to work in the world which. Is what I think happened arts does and I think the project did I think, that's why I'm here. Well. I'm. Actually, very, moved to respond to Adam I mean this is not the, gestalt, theory, that, I was taught by Rudolf are not right so I'm. Really excited that neuroscience. Is in a place where I can think of that dynamic. Flow. And sort, of collectivities. That, split and come back together, I had. Lydia, bring in this video which you can watch and if you. Get. Bored with me or even if you don't eventually. Around about 15 seconds in 20, seconds in you'll, see the slime, mold social. Amoeba. Form. An aggregate. And what's. Amazing about this unicellular. Organism. That emerges. Into a, multicellular, organism is. That, it does so while each cell, maintains. Its. Identity. As it were I mean it doesn't presumably. Have consciousness, as we hubristic. Imagined, it but it's, organizing. Itself into this slug which. Is then going to move, off to the left, as. An organized, entity looking. For food, as. A, collective, that, chemically, directs, itself towards. The, food that it might be able to sense in its medium and what's. Cool about this, scientific. Video, is that at, the very end of this loop, you'll. See this slug. Become. A vertical, fruiting, body okay. So it. Actually is coming up vertically, from the agar plate right here and standing, up and going, like okay I give up there's no food I'm going to make spores, I'm, going, to make spores and what's. Hilarious. About, the science of this is that. It's attracting, people that are just incapable. Of, thinking. Of this without words. Like altruism, and selfishness. And. Sacrifice. And, right. So, if you don't get to be a spore you. Lose buckwheat, you know and the science about this kind of material so, I look. To culture, as an art historian I look historically, to. See what artists, have done with certain generative, concepts, and in that sense I'm I'm very much fond. Of Stefan's. Toolkit, and we've collaborated, on, some things together with great pleasure so. I look historically at, what they've left us traces, you know, texts. Images.
Journals. Interviews. And then. As a critic, in the contemporary, world I work. With contemporary, artists, whose work excites, me very much and seems to propel. As. Nog rafi the future if you will and something, coming into being a kind of emergent, thinking. That I want to be part of her I want to see in, the world, so, I, guess. Because presentation. Was wonderful, her her, article in. Cabinet. Is very interesting, about, the. Have to read the title the uncomputable. But. We're Slon, mold in her thinking is a kind of model for a certain calculational. Possibility. I'm, actually looking for something else in slime, mold so, the, artists, working with biological, material, that have taught me things that have helped me think are ones. That are. Crafting. When. I've been calling bio fiction, and they've. Been doing so for, okay. Here's the utopian, project, a cultural. Evolution. That I want to see happen then. I'm calling symbiotic. So I just use whatever, platform I have to tap this stupid. Picture, so the, idea of the antic is that which is and the, idea of symbiosis is, that's, what. We are we. Are. Flan. We, are, completely. Pathetically. Dependent, on our, environment, on our planetary, systems, on the scrub life of. Which we are a part and, the sooner we can get rid of the fantasy, of the, selfish. Individual, The Selfish Gene whatever the selfish thing is sooner, we can get rid of that the better the. Sooner we can think together, to. Sense, somehow. Our complete, dependence, on the planetary systems that make, our, consciousness. And our lives possible the better right so, art that does that is art that at the, moment, I'm excited. By and want to celebrate because I have, another fantasy, which I'm, sure my anthropologist. Friend could disabuse, me of that we. Make art to, externalize. Something, that then changes. Us write, that then evolves, us to, a different kind of creature right, so this is my fantasy and, I, celebrate that contemporary, art as a place that I don't know how to get to but. There seem to be quite getting there they seem to be emerging, into that project, of. Collective. I don't want to call it intelligence, collective, action Collective sensing, collective.
Being In a chemical, bath which. Is under theorized, right, the binary bits of neural. Nets, forget. About the synapse which is a gap, that. Has to be bridged by wet, chemicals, right so, for. Me these. Cultural. Conversations. These metaphors, we live by are metaphors, that will help us, possibly. Live. In the future. And if we can't do it we. Deserve to be extinct. So, I appreciate that concept, also actually, I want to ask among. The many topics we have related to neuroscience. And biology. Artistic. Connection. To science I, wanted. To talk about one related to culture. And power. Specifically. That a lot of the formulations. Of collectivity. That we that we look to things. Like Amazon Mechanical Turk. Are. Pretty. Higher. Even. Something like Wikipedia well, life isn't, modeled, in the same way with, payment. Structure. There. Are. Definitely. Higher fees petrol, is at the very least of power, authority, expertise. Many. Ways miraculous, project. Are. There examples, of human collective intelligence that. Think. Of where people aren't. Exerting. Power over each other where there is a more genuine form, of collectivity or are there ways in which we're moving toward that and this, may relate I can ask it to you know your, work in. Providing. Proceeds. From art sales to. The. Participants. But, how. Is it that we, make a move toward not, hire folks. I. Think. It's an interesting question, and, one of the reasons why I was fascinated by this research, and through artificial, societies is. Because this was the first time I believe, that that. Modeling. For a complex behavior. Of societies, allowed us, to understand, that any system. Of this complexity, naturally, goes into a physical embryo so even if you give people equal chances, on, the, start it will unless it's monitored, constantly and. And. The. Simple the simple in my opinion the simple and short answer to your question is no there are no systems, like this because immediately, unless it's heavily monitored, and and, supervised. Which, could probably which could entail, other problems, such as surveillance. And. It's. Every, system is going to naturally push, into some kind of disequilibrium. And. And. This. Proportion, and, that relationship. Power and. I'm. Obviously exploring. And that's, why I'm looking for like various, weird phenomena. That emerge, out of. The blue that are really like bottom-up, emergent, processes, that, sometimes, look. Strange. We don't really know what to make of them what is their purpose some, of them are almost having structural, artworks, there. Was apart. From the experiment, that I shown. And there. Was a this, experiment, another experiment called take care of my plant which, I mean it's kind of absurd it's like different, people also a dreaded platform different people were asked, to. Participate. In like watering, this one plant so they were sending comments. Through. Through a platform, and this, plant was being nurtured, by thousands. Or hundreds, thousands of people what. Is what, does this mean what is the purpose of a dislike, so it, wasn't even a social experiment it was something, some emergent, action. And I think that you know they're the only hope for me, is that looking, at spontaneous. Emergent, phenomenon, society of course including social movements, but even these very often you, know turned. To become a trickle or turn to be and there was obviously this question of headless revolution, whether it's possible or not how, effective, can it be or.
Not And and. I. You. Know that I think this is why the. It's. Very interesting to have this debate was I was on to apologists. Because like looking into very, strange. Social. Phenomena, throughout the history of human civilization maybe, can provide some examples but I am rather skeptical. Could. I make a comment on this because I think, the. Idea of our present, models of artificial intelligence as being somehow. Exemplary. Is deeply. Flawed because. Each of those are based on code. That gets handed on and passed on and it is totally baked into hierarchies, of when it was built know there was even junk in there that's like you know chat. You know so, I'm. Informed, by the work of like Wendy, Chung who's a great, media, theorist who, traced back the homophony, algorithms. Of Facebook right if you like this you know, in Amazon, if you like this feel. Like this right the, so-called, echo chamber that we find ourselves in socially, to. A pioneering. Study in the 1950s. By an urban theorists, right, and Nick probably knows all of this and remembers the gods name anyway. It was, two paradigms, of, which, only one was, chosen for. The future, development of, all sorting, algorithms, the two paradigms were birds. Of a feather lived. Together soared, together and the. Other urban study of neighborhoods was opposites. Attract. These. Two, bits, of difference. Liking, and difference hating sort. Completely. Differently and the, one that, software, developers, chose was, homophily, was, birds of a feather always. To, flock together that's because. When. Redlining, was happening you, know redlining, was happening in their neighborhoods, they were already, whites who were benefiting, from that privilege you know what I'm saying so even though the urban study guy. Wanted. To look at the non racist model. That's. Not what got baked into all of our systems so I. As. A culturalist, and a historian, want to insist, that there's nothing, neutral. About, the intelligences. As we now. Define them and. When I was privileged to be at a session with Danny Hillis you know on. You. Know possible, minds with, a bunch of robotics. People who now have second, thoughts. Know. What. About AI it's kind of scary actually anyway, I said. Guys what about the immune brand. You. Know it learns, it, teaches. Us it remembers, things it forgets things it's distributed. It's. Not exactly conscious, maybe it is we don't really know the point is it works, both.
To, Take, in and to. Reject. And the, fact that all we spend our money on this antibiotics. And the. Probiotics, aren't even regulated, by our federal drug, authority tells. Us something about how our route algorithms, are organized right, so on I'm, looking, for different, metaphors. To, get going and I'm looking to art for. Doing that so. Well. If there's more sounds. Harley's, power gender, yeah there's more to say on this. I. I. Don't know if I'd add something hopeful but I might add something like, rising. That occur more more more linking than no D in, terms of hierarchy setups I. Think. That. The. The, sort of AI as scary take is is interesting, I think also. That the way that AI is changing, us in the way that we see technology is is sort of different conversation, which gets left, out sometimes in terms of. How. Is it that we're relating, to those sorting algorithms and how are they changing us as information, processors, and Packers and something. I wanted to add which. Might. Might. Be interesting to hire at conversation, is, transactive. Memory, as. A. Sort of linking concept meaning. Culture. As. A. Form, of collective memory that, no one person holds. And. The notion that I as an individual, in a culture don't, need to remember. Necessarily. The history of when this space was burned or built I need to remember the person who remembers the history, and. The. Notion, that that sort of linking, is being, extended. To, such a great, to, agree with current, information sorting. Becoming so effective, where I, I, know not, only do I not need to know where the when. The house was built or, burned. III barely, need to remember the person who remembers the name of the house and, as. You. Get, more effective linking, in this way I think you, start to live more in the links rather than in the notes of information, um so. I think, the interesting, thing about it in in my lab we do some work on, tech. And memory, and there's, really, nice work showing that as. You. For instance teach, people about, Wikipedia. Pages they. Stop, remembering the content, and they start remembering how to find the content they, move towards the. Link's I think that I see, this in. Myself, and things like family history and myself like working. In a lab with distributed, kind of expertise, right I don't really feel like I need to know much, about circuits. Because there's. A, person, next door who knows a lot about circuits. Um I'm, really, curious, about, the, kind of, hierarchy. That's turning, me into and. What, it means if I live more links, to information, and less in terms of nodes less, in terms of expertise, less in terms of that sort of hierarchy, and, what, it means to start forgetting, the things and remember that remembering, the paths do the things forgetting. The name of the thing.
So. Well. Let. Me let me move on to another question to which the answer, may also just be no. But. I'm, wondering with, the because. We're characterizing, so. Many things that's collected right. We're talking about this the self the minds. Society, of mind which. Is you know mad for the. Exam metaphor - neural. Activity and the brain in, in terms of society, obviously, there's the collective. Nature of society and there's particular online labor platforms. There's. Collaboration, also. So I guess, what, I'm wondering is whether it's useful to distinguish, what is it redundant, to say collective, intelligence is there another kind of intelligence. Does. It is. There a reason that we would even. Say that to put an emphasis on something, what. Are we distinguishing, it from. Discussing. Earlier about the distinction between intelligence. And creativity. I, think, these two questions are related and I think that in. Principle in my opinion it's a false binary, because, any. Kind. Of creativity. Involves an intelligence. And, vice versa and it, was a, lot of this conversation. About creativity, versus intelligence, was actually generated, by neoliberal, discourse Richard. Florida, and and an, exploitation. Of his creative intelligence, for for. Purposes. Of. Corporations. For example. And. I think that this whole binary is completely. False. But. What. For example is interesting, for me in, terms, of collective, intelligence and. Why. I think, that it's, it's. Important to distinguish it even if it's a play on the husband maybe. Is. The fact that, especially. Culture, and especially Western, culture, in, particular has. This tradition, of thinking about. Intelligence. As individual. And, and. Located, in the brain and at, human and I really appreciate what Karolina. Was was saying I absolutely, share your interest in this real that this has to this, anthropomorphize. Ation, of intelligence. And and. The idea of like this individual. Intelligence it has to stop because not only obviously, scientists, are observing, since a long time that intelligence, is distributed. Then, it's external, to the brain, and. It, can be collective it can be also known human and. And intelligence. Essentially, as a lien I would even say you know what in a way and especially, was the microbiome, research. That. Is both inside of our our bodies, that also is.
External. In a way so it's both US and on us and. I. Think. That that it actually brought the whole conversation and coming, back to things. We chattering, about AI the. Whole anthropomorphize. Ation, of. Artificial. Intelligence that, it's it's. It's. A single brain or it's a single entity or a robot, or something it's, just like a such a blind, alley because. There. Are actually all this other forms of intelligence. That's. And as much color as possible neural, networks, which is, used. By which are used by scientists, that, it is a multiplicity. It's, a network it's that. So. It's useful to ask who. Is served by the fiction, of the. Solitary, unit and. You. Know, the. Market is very well served by this yeah. So the, I see i just opened a beautiful show with, jason moran and their stated intention. Was to sort of break. With the art world's, fixation, on the individual, and talk about collaboration. But. It's called, jason, moran you. Know what i mean so they they can't really get there because they're inside, they're. Inside the art market but. They know they want to get there right so you just you can just see the. Function, of these ideologies. As, they as, they operate I mean. So. One one thing he could come, to with the term selective intelligent perhaps also like. About the nature of intelligence by, adding by, adding these terms we need to adjust. Our. Welcome. Back to atoms point there's. Also the, binary, we've dumped right. So, we I mean we function with that and. You. Know I'm gonna I'm gonna Nick. Didn't want to talk about this but like MIT, has a whole Center. For, collective, intelligence, and. What they're trying to do over there at the Sloan School is actually, not be done not. Have, algorithm. To determine our president, for example, yeah you know and. That is a very. Important, project, even, though it operates, within all the hierarchies, with all the biases, that you, know can possibly cooked into all this at least there. Are some humans, that, are trying to, you. Know move move, the debate. Within things that we have already unleashed, right, that are already operating, in fairly, stupid ways to, run our social lives I. Just. Want to quickly I think, that. Professor. John said about. About. Emergent. Intelligence, to emergent being I, think. It's really interesting interesting. Comment. If. Smarter. Is what we're trying to be when we group together or not. There's, there's, nice research out, of MIT well I think was Malone and then more recently at Sandy Pentland I mean love um doing, work on what it is that predicts. Effective. Collaboration, and it is um it's. It's it's never, it's. Never picking. An individual. Number, to be, smarter. Than the rest of group and talk more or even three within 10 it's. Always a measure, of social cohesion that's, the best predictor, of output. And. I think that that's research that that people have come across and has been around for a while there's more recent research which i think is interesting, in. In what president said about our our. Country, making collective, decisions which we question. Which. Is that that that measure, of social, cohesion is, no, longer a good measure of group, output, um if those people are not in person if they're communicating over text. On the internet then. That, that is no longer the measure that predicts, group intelligence. As it, was measured in the original I'm alone with I find. That. Pretty. Scary in, terms of the ways that we're going to relate that scale and.
So I really. Appreciate the. Move from emergent and telogen immersion, being. Whether, intelligent, is what we're aiming for and whether intelligent is what we're actually studying. I think it's really exciting. That, one hundred and, Sun a flat service walk in a circle and die and five hundred thousand can. See the world I. Don't know if what they're doing is being intelligent, I think. It's cool to complicate. So. Let. Me ask because, the topic has come up about. Authorship. One might say but also. Being. An artist as a, singular, you. Know type of activity, either. Promulgated. I mean copyright. Law coming about to be able to. Make. Marketable. And of course. Has. Its own version of this also it's not just in publishing right. So. It's. Actually a case that this work arises, even if it's not done by, explicitly. By collaborative, even, if it's not even. If it's, not Shakespeare working, out he's playing with, the troupe of actors you, know. Or. Someone. With toriel, supervision. And collaboration. It occurs in the social context it occurs collectively, in various ways and, I think we recognize, that the. Standard. But. Then. I guess the question is what's going to happen with it. Well. I think the art world will be the last to go. So. I'm. Fascinated by, artists, who have. Some experience with say. The theatrical, arts or the music world like Jason Moran right, there. Are very, well. Elaborated, control. Systems. Of credit, and sharing. In, those worlds even. Down to jazz improvisation you. Know where it's like it's your turn the drummer you. Know. The. Second, you get into the art world right. Everything. Changes so an. Artist like William Kentridge who. Loves opera who, wishes he could just do opera, hmm, needs, to go over here and make a dry and sell it for $300,000. So, he can make an opera right, because, opera doesn't make money, opera. Is collaborative, opera. Has many many people. Working on it all of whom get paid and are given credit right. So. Ironically. The thing he can do himself, is, paid. More by, the art world than the thing that. Has. To pay all those other people now, that that, obscures. The fact that his workshop, has, a stable. A very, committed, people that, he has worked with, almost. In a theatrical troupe. Impresario. Way for, decades, and and they, don't their name does not go. But, let me ask so I understand, from the credit perspective the practices. That, we can talk, about it and we can share our, appreciation. Of it our understanding. And. Doesn't, that come from knowing about artists. And their practices, and, if we if we have something to eat we. Agni. Ask his work is interesting because we, know about her trajectory, an artist and the contextual, of the, contextual. Situation. Of the other works that she's done and her, thinking and her perspective in the way that she inquires I think. Her work is unusual. In the amount, of credit. That she shares did, discussion. Of her collaborators, I think that's unusual, and I think that's admirable but you have to think we're not as interested, in her turkish. Stories. As, we are in her but, that could be a great hypnagogic. Reversal. Instead. Of averaging those emotions, yes, you know.
Right. Drilling, down and and, there is some you know there is some effort to do that there's some work with, these effective. Communities, I. Think. You know I'll just throw out another example. Of collectives, which I would, love to get onionskin response. To so in defin which is the special, economic zone, of Shenzhen. The. Art. Village. Was. Collected, by the part, party, state in China and told. That they should each paint their dream on, the on, this particular canvas but on the other side they, should paint an exact replica, of this thing, over here this little chip, this. Little photographic, chip and they're very highly skilled at replicating photographic. Information. On whatever, they're given and, when all of the tiles, were put together by the party state they, made a giant Mona Lisa. Not. From their dreams which are now on the back of, the canvas their, individual, dreams but. The, front which. They were given as, actual. Living human. Mechanical, Turk now. Composes. The dolphin Mona Lisa which is so much better than Leonardo's, because we together, right. So. This this trope, of the collective, is also cultural, conceit. And it, bears with a tremendous. Power, for, the political narrative right. So, the hierarchy, that determined. Which, worker we get which chip you know which piece of the Mona Lisa is, erased. In, the. Discourse about this wonderful collective. Right. So, you're you know you can always do, that interesting. Analysis, of the history and how it, works with these concepts. The. Name of the Mechanical, Turk is an obscene Orientalism. Right that we just use without reflection. But. It already encodes, the, hierarchy, of this. Automata. Without. Brain. That. Will perform upon. Demand I mean. So you. Know can. We reverse that narrative in any way with, that platform I mean I think we'd have to rename it. Sound. So it does seem like historic, sizing these terms is one way to break. Them right the. History of the collective, and collective, farming, and the former Soviet Union is a different, kind of a collective and the, kind of utopian, thing that maybe, we're, talking about a little bit here right and I think a lot of discussions. Of. Collective. Intelligence are. And emergent, intelligence, are haunted, by a kind. Of reductionist. Methodological individualism. Right that, somehow there's. This collective. Emanation. Of emergent. Intelligence, and then it's made of these binary, little. Bits crime and division individuals, which is kind of Western liberal. Contract. Theory from Hobbes. - so, to, John Locke etc. Monads. That just sort of percolate. Right with no with. No mediating. The middle structure, right I think that maybe that's, that's. Something we could think about is what would be a mezzo theory. Something. That intervenes, between, the. Kind of monads. And this. Collective. Effervescence well. Let's go there because the monad is merely. An invagination, or, an extrusion, from. A single, divine body. So. I mean we could get.
Right, There with the monad we could we. Could get some fuzz, and some, vagueness. And, some sliding going, on it's. It's the bit that, I think we we struggle, we, struggle, with. Exchange. One is about, coming. Back again about to, this question, of like creativity, and, and for different projections, and anthropomorphize, ations of oh my eye and it's useless, and and. The. Something. That is specific, i think about. Intelligence. That is not machining. Is a. Certain, aspect of irrationality, or unpredictability. Or computability. And. And. I think that the problem that that, is now starting. To be recognized, by scientists. That it's this tendency to act upon authorization, but also of. The, AI and, and trying. To think about how this could be creative, and how could we first of all create and artificial, intelligence artists, using, algorithms, i think that one. Of the question is like, how do you actually, imitate. Not. The intelligence, but precisely the dominance the stupidity or the, things even more broadly some. Kind of irrationality. Of various, kinds including stupidity. Navy. Tower or and this is becoming, a, it's probably a good unprintable, challenge, machines. Have their own type of stupidity. It's called glitch. Yes. But, they're happy imitate, they don't have to imitate, agreed. But you know there are different kind of errors, and glitches, and of course some artists are exploring, the schoolís machining, glitches but, actually, the kind of irrationality. There's, something particular. About. It, and and I think that you. Know the. The. The. Computability. Of, like collective, social behavior which we can obviously and now with all the algorithms that we haven't had to for, example we, anticipate. The the election. Ourselves, and other other. Phenomena, then become useless at the end of the day because so many irrational, factors sometimes, play into it I think, that you, know I see I mean, I kind of see some hope in it because wouldn't it be absolutely terrifying. And everything could just be computed. And and we would be able to anticipate everything. Like, in terms of any kind of, creative. Excuse, to the word process. Of any kind not in culture, but in any I think, actually this would you, know. Humans. Need. Not only this sense. Of being. Able to control things because obviously what is. Calculated. The ability to calculate things, it's obviously. Connected to our ability to control things and do. More to know that we have done computable. Zanda rational factors. This, actually, I mean the dependent we still can have it thank God is a. Positive, thing but. I don't know for how long but I'm hoping that maybe maybe, always but. And, another point that I wanted to make about. The. Questions of authorship and, like where are where art and culture could go I mean one, of my main areas. Of. Research is the research is where its culture. Going to evolve where it's going and I I think that we're living in from. Any. Reasons. Horrifying. Times but for other reasons very interesting, times because we can witness as culture. Involves in front of our times in, front of our eyes because, it's some things are happening so fast. But, one negative. Aspect. Of evolution, of culture is that it used to be produced collectively, and things like the Bible, or Dermatology's. Were. Important. Products of culture was multiple, and on the most mostly anonymous. Authors. And even. Today like a lot of people are indicating. That even constructs, like Homer, or maybe to something or even Shakespeare actually, constitute, a multiplicity, of a certain, diversity of, more, than just one author and at.
Some Point of culture of ocean we arrived at a point where, basically yes as the, Caroline pointed, out cultural, industries, or proton-proton, industries. Capitalized. On the fact that if you have a singular author it's going to be easier to capitalize, on it to market, it to to, to and and. We're yeah and we're like at. The point of concern, of this that that it's a, total. Alienation almost. On the product. And. And. I think that you, know creativity. Is. A social, relation. First. And foremost and what happened in culture, is that creativity, became, a relation, between the product, and the author and I think and and, this is why you know precisely. Experimental. Support pointing. Out that. That. You. Know the objects, that had were, touched by the artist had why, is painting. Today as, for example like Isabella. Growl very, interestingly, analyzes. Like why has, painting, been so fetishized, and and. Its really reaching the highest prices is because the, the a, lot of people who understand culture in a kind of very basic way they want to have the the stigma. Of the artist the touch of the artists hand even if it's metal. To some degree but still some kind of expanded. Notion of fainting, or an expanding, notion of sculpture something, that had a contact, was the living body of the artist and and, it's obviously. Just another, you know like commodification. Of. A. Process, that that, originally. Was you. Know general, intellect, multitude. Of various, various. People. Because. It seems to me that there it is possible, it is you're mentioning with regard to homework. That. We, can have works that don't have an author and, that are creative. And, influential. Socially. But. We can't have something, creative, or which will socially without, some. Type of cultural context, worth. To. Say that we wouldn't say oh this is a very creative meteorite, that landed on, the ground you, know I mean it's it's, it has to be a work that has some, meaning situated, socially, that's that's. There I don't. Know if it looked like I'm yes cos sculpture, my. Creative. Looking meteorite, yes that's work. Had. Certain, orders, that. We associate, it but. There, was also cultural, materials. But. Upon first contact, if it Rockets out of the sky and lands in front of me and it looks like her, anodized.
Metal. Baby, this. Is an empirical question we went to if we go, to. Oh. It's. Been done. Realizin. Already did that but I'm making a different point about, where. Culture, comes from so. If it Rockets out of the sky lands in front of us and it looks like an es cos object. I'm, gonna say there's, probably some culture in this right. So, I'm supplying, ya. You know I'm part of the what, I love what Adam, mentioned about this collective, project, that, defers, memory, and stores it in other people and so on and so forth I mean. Maybe it would be a provocative suggestion, to say are. We allowing, corporations. To, have collective, intelligence they're already affected, persons, they're already victim. Bodies you know. What. What, are we you know we. Have many many entities in our own culture that. Are kind, of allowed to operate, as if, they possessed, intelligence. And some, of the AI crowd I was hanging out with was. Saying. That this is already the singularity. This. Is already an artificial, intelligence, their. Claim is that the CEO, has. To listen to this aggregate, that, is this corporation, that, the CEO is a fictive. Individual. Who, doesn't actually control, what's. Going on with. This emergent. Property, which is called the capitalist, corporation. So. I take that pretty seriously. There's. A history to that we decided, to make them people we decided to let them have free speech we decided, to let them you. Know have certain ways of storing their capital, and moving it around, that. Didn't involve our our separate. Wishes, so. You know some have argued that this is already the. Singularity, of a general. Intelligence, appearing, in in. Our social organizations. I. Think, that's called a champion and, I think I do that on my interfaces. I'm, also thinking back to the 19th century and, Charles. Babbage its notion, of intelligence, as not, only a kind, of capacity or faculty but. Also has knowledge about, the. Conduct, of calculation. And, Charles. Babbage not only being famous, for thinking about the early theory and computation but also somebody. Who is very interested in factory manufacture. And an organized a shop floor and, making. The claim that, having. The knowledge about. How to organize the shop floor meant, having intelligence. And the intelligence, resided, not in the craftspeople, or in the factory workers on the floor but, rather in the manager right, so already there there's a kind, of notion of there's, already a kind of relation, of production, that produces, a kind of notion. Of what counts as intelligence, and it's. Gathering together if a call activity, into kind of the category mistake of the individual. I. Just, want to quickly to point of, irrational. And authorship. And corporation I, think on another. Institution. Project. Directive that's at the table and, in the room the. The, sort of collective scientist, and the collection of facts that science produces, and the, notion of authorship in that realm I think is really