WHY POOR MENTAL HEALTH IS A BUSINESS RISK

uk who is listening to the inspire summit also those in europe and in australia and the usa this is the inspire summit which starts today and is running throughout the month of august so you are all very very welcome i'm marie fraser a boundary management specialist who helps corporate women climb the career ladder without sacrifice using my marie fraser framework and we're kicking off the summit today in conversation with peter abrahamson a psychologist also known as the emotional weightlifter peter please introduce yourself to our audience emery thank you very much for for talking to me today and yes i am peter abrahamson and i do call myself the emotional weightlifter i'm a psychologist and a coach i wasn't always i started my career way back some 40 years ago doing various jobs whilst i was a student i became a translator and interpreter worked as a project manager then moved into supply chain consultancy whatever i did i was always more interested in the people i worked with or worked for than what i was actually there to do so it came natural to me sort of halfway through my career to pick up my degree in psychology and my coaching qualifications and i gradually work my way out of the corporate world and into my own self-employed world where i'm now working with individuals and organizations to prevent poor mental health and to pick up the pieces after the event thank you that's um that's fabulous peter and today we're going to be talking about how poor mental health is a business risk why is that peter i say it's a big big business risk to mental health because something happens when we go into business we we no longer be become human beings we become employees or we become managers or directors or ceos so there's a depersonalization going on where we become something in a contract so i pay you to do some work and you bloody will go and do it or i'm being paid so i better go and do it so we sometimes look after our machines now computers more than we do our people but we still expect people to perform to a certain standard every day and that's where i have a problem with the whole thing because people are not employees they are people who are employed to do some work and the most difficult thing to deal with ever is people they're not the same every day the machine on the shop floor is the same every day the forklift shock would be the same every day give or take we look after them they perform every day but people are different and we hire the whole person and forget that we hire the whole person we come into work as a whole person and forget we are a whole person but if you can't think if you can't plan if you can't make decisions if you can't remember then that's a business risk isn't it no matter what you do you're not performing to to the top of your ability and this is why i'm saying mental health or poor mental health rather is a huge business risk because you end up not servicing your clients will you might put up the wrong contract you might not operate the machine properly so we have to be careful that we look after the mental health which is part of our overall health i believe health comes in in four main categories you've got mental physical financial and social health and as individuals we we have all of it and we have to be careful to look after all four types okay thank you so let's dive into each one of those areas a bit a bit deeper so that our audience can get a better understanding of these four key areas sure as i said we have mental health physical health financial health and social health there are people who will add more to those but let's just stick with the four big ones and because we are talking about mental health problems today let's stay with the the mental health aspect and see what what happens so if you are feeling low if you're under stress under pressure all the time your your cognitive abilities that's your ability to think and to plan and to make good decisions remember things is impaired that can lead to a lot of pressure on yourself you might want to compensate for that so maybe you you start heating the alcohol a little bit to actually fall asleep because you can't sleep gradually your mental health is suffering and the more your mental health is suffering the more your mind is suffering because body and mind work together you can't separate the two and also if you're not feeling great you may not go out there and socialize as much as you like so you become more and more a recluse you're in your own little world and if you're not performing well you might actually end up losing your job then the financial helper suffers and then the whole negative cycle carries on but you could also start somewhere else you could have a car accident for example you're out of action for a while that has a huge impact not only on your physical body but also on your mind you may not be able to earn if you're self-employed your statutory pay might might stop so again you could lose out socially you could lose out financially so we have to look at the whole person in the whole context of that person which is also important for employers because nobody turns up and get to the car park of their place of work and then become this this at work person we can't just shed our private lives and problems and tries and tribulations in the car park and walk through the door and be that that machine type employee we can't and similarly we can't do it when you go home either we can't just drop the computer back and forget about everything no there's still something there that's totally fascinating so i mean how important is it to understand the drivers of the individual it is important because if you go to places like like linkedin where there's a lot of very energetic people talking about how you should do this how do you do that your career this your career that well that is not everybody there are those who do not want a career they want a job because all they want is to feed the family and provide a roof over their heads and go on holiday and just it's a means to an end and then there are those who want to climb the corporate ladder or who want to make it on their own and start their own business and we should cater for all of those so you can imagine if you are an employer with a number of employees you want them to be energized you want them to to contribute but you shouldn't expect all of them to want to climb the ladder and depending on the size of the company there might not even be a ladder you can climb i mean what do you do in an eight-person company that i've worked with a number of times and helping them with a few things there isn't an awful lot you can do other than what you do so i think it's important about then understanding the context you're in actually what am i doing here why am i doing it if i'm just turning up for work to get the paycheck at the end of the week or the end of the month well you're not going to expect much of me in terms of contributing to an awful lot that's okay but what if i thought i went to work and did something important regardless of whether i want to be on a career path or not so let me give you an example of what could happen and what i'm sure did not happen many years ago i worked as a consultant in a factory that makes pacemakers and people turned up for work some just because they had a job there and others because they had a point in climbing a professional career but if i if i'd done a survey which i couldn't do because that was not why i was there so we wouldn't go down well at all suggesting that if i had asked people why do you go to work what's the point of coming here i would get all sorts of things except maybe the overall sort of purpose because everybody who works there actually saves lives a pacemaker saves lives or prolongs life and it doesn't matter if you work in the canteen feeding the people who work the machines or or in the warehouse or in the admin floor it doesn't matter whether you are the cleaner whether you are someone on the production line in an office a project manager it doesn't matter you all work on saving lives because at the end of the day you get pacemakers coming out of of the business so you can give people a purpose that is greater than just turning up monday to friday or whatever your your shift pattern is if if you have one this is why i'm saying it's important to understand what what drives people um you can actually create a communal drive but everybody depending on where they are in their lives will have different drivers some are young just starting out maybe young graduates maybe they they are an apprentice others have family young family medium age family school school age maybe children have flown the nest maybe you're close to retirement we all have a different reason for going to work we all have different needs and wants yeah fantastic i love that analogy of the community in the pacemaker factory that they're all contributing to saving lives i think that's fantastic so how important is the board in creating a culture of good mental health i believe if you want to have good mental health and well-being in an organization it has to start at the top and it's not enough to talk about wanting it yeah that's nice um you have to make it a strategy so this is something that we aim for we have certain targets we have certain kpis we have this as an agenda item every time we have a board meeting and we want to see progress if that doesn't happen you can have a very toxic organization it's not it's not enough to just talk you have to actually put in the effort to you just say look we this is what this is what we want this is how we work in this organization we look at our people as human beings not as robots not as machines we accept that they come and go and have good days bad days and sometimes in different days but the least we can do as a board of directors is to make sure that no one comes to work and get ill from going to work be that physically or mentally but then also if someone turns up and actually feels rotten i mean i've worked with with people who had survived a serious car accident and he spent his time wandering looking into into the air thinner wondering why he survived and somebody else didn't and and he was constantly behind on what he needed to do so his department had to pick up the slack it's a business risk so so because you know in translation there isn't much risk of anyone dying from a translation being delivered late to the customer but it's a business risk you cannot be late on your promise of a deadline because somebody else is waiting for that work to be incorporated in further down the the pipeline so if someone had been able to then take him to one side and offer some sort of support so that he could then start to feel better be a more productive part of the team that would that would have been great but is that just a cost or is that looking after your i hate to say this but your equipment your your your machines why why why can we take the computer we work with and and and update and do something for if we can't do to ourselves so we have to look at people not as a cost center and a commodity but as those assets that people keep talking about people are our greatest asset yes but they do not behave like assets assets from a from an accountancy perspective they they devalue over time whereas people as people actually get more and become more and more valuable so we we just have to think about people as actually being people and if you do that in the boardroom and decide this is how we want this business to be then that there is the focus yes you can delegate who should be looking after it on a daily basis but you can't divorce yourself from the responsibility and then when you have set the tone it is actually up to everybody working in the business high low and medium doesn't matter to keep maintaining that healthy culture because people at the same level can be quite nasty to each other men good mental health is not something that management provides and it just trickles downwards that's not what happens the top part of the organization must provide the means and the environment and make sure that happens but after that it is up to everybody whoever they are whatever their rank and status is to help maintain that good quality culture yeah absolutely i couldn't agree more okay so can we let's sort of move over to talking about the role of the hr department i mean are they there to protect people or really just just a process and procedures approach for them oh this is this is where i i can get into so much hot water oh right okay well dip your toe in i'll dip my toe in and i'll i'll take the hate mail afterwards but what we shouldn't forget is there are i think there are different perspectives of what hr is about employees and i we when when we say employees normally we think about the rank and file but managers are employees the directors are employees so i i wish we had a different or a better term for it but the the lowest in the organization usually look at hr as oh people human beings but at the top hr is there to make sure that people processes are dealt with correctly so that they do the hiring and the firing in the right way so that regular communication is is happening that whatever sequence you have of people talking to the nine manager um appraisals awful term um that they happen at the at the right time and that all the processes are being followed because there might be a review you might have an iso accreditation you need to keep up so it's they are all in my opinion um about process procedure and payroll they're not the place where someone can come and cry their eyes out if they're having a bad day they're not the place where they can go and complain about their manager and the question is should they be well if the manager is a problem you can complain to the manager but that's usually not going to help so you can complain to your manager about other things than the manager but you need to be able to go to hr and feel safe doing that without feeling that your own career a job is now in danger i i worked with with a client who came to me with with her mental health issues caused by work and she said to her manager it's complained to her manager about a certain person in the organization and the manager said quite frankly don't go to hr they run a black book on whoever complains about this person and i don't want you i don't want to lose you off my team so if you have that attitude in hr that can only be allowed by the ceo so the culture in the business is determined by the lowest standards and behaviors condoned by the ceo the ceo may not be aware but then that's another problem why is he or she not aware why is this being allowed to happen so hr is is there for sure to make sure that processes and procedures happen correctly and there are some very nasty people in hr i've come across them and there are some really lovely people in hr i've also come across those but i think they have a difficult job in in many respects and you know not every company even has an hr manager or department it's often seen as a service function to the business and very often it is there to protect the business from the employees so if you aren't a big enough company you may not be able to afford an hr department radar manager so it's outsourced on a need to use basis so whether we like the people in hr or not they have they have a purpose and we shouldn't expect to just dump things on hr you can't you can't deal a dump you have to delegate and make sure and make sure that the response that this responsibility is always with the ceo as far as as the base as the people side of things goes because without the people in in a business there is no business you you cannot have a business without people in it you may have lots of computers but they need to be operated by somebody so why not look after the people you've got and make them perform better you know the more support you give people when when they're down or when they're feeling low the more they give back without even asking for time off or days in lieu or whatever because they appreciate that they were treated as a human being not as a commodity yeah exactly that's so true and i love that phrase uh delhi dump well i've i've i've been dumped on so many times in my career oh my goodness oh please i can't do this i have to give it to you okay thank you um can i do it is does it fit what i do do i know how to do it yeah just get on with it yeah and that and that sort of that approach caused a lot of stress and and and pressure yeah yeah sorry i was just going to say i'm i'm such a curious um because one of the things that you did say was and you're absolutely right um that a lot of hr is outsourced so for those people that perhaps don't have the courage to go to hr or there isn't an hr you know what what's um i'm curious to to you know know what you think should be in place even if anything can be put in place well a lot is is expected of of line managers of team leaders and of line managers and and line managers happen whenever they have somebody reporting into them so a line manager may him or herself also have a line manager above and we expect them to deal with pretty much everything because they are in charge of the team and there's a huge organization that says you know called gallup they do all sorts of research they have massive resources to go and do global studies and all sorts of things and they have identified that actually a manager a line manager is in charge of and can affect about 70 percent of what goes on in their department or in their team the ability to do so is also a lot to do with how communication happens from above and down so do they know what the business is doing do they know what's happening next and where where which direction to it's going so that they can then talk to their team about it but that's a whole different story yeah i didn't want to sort of send you off track but but they are they are in in charge of the dynamics of their team and therefore we expect them to and i see this a lot we just expect them to to deal with any any issue that comes up including someone's poor mental health and they may not be equated to do that they may have no interest in doing that they may not want to they may want to but have no idea how and then they do the easy stuff and say yeah you'll be fine or they they look at someone as a as a risk to be eliminated so they get pushed after that there will be the discrimination there will be all sorts of procedural stuff that doesn't belong it's simply about arm around the shoulder conversation and and work out what what other help do you need but if there isn't anything in the company to offer well first thing first is at least we can show the compassion we can we can listen we can stop what we're doing and just listen for the sake of understanding and you know compassion doesn't mean saying yes to everything empathy doesn't mean saying yes to everything it means listening and then approaching i mean i usually say attack the ball not the player find out what what is the problem is that something i can do as a line manager is there something you think needs to be done differently and then you come to an agreement that yes you may like this or that to happen but you can't for these are those reasons but at least you've had the conversation of course but you have to be equipped yes learn how to do that yeah yeah exactly and perhaps a lot of these line managers etc don't have that specific training so my next question was going is you know how important is it to truly listen to people at all the levels in business when it comes to mental health issues and and creating a culture where it's seen as everyone's responsibility i'm sure you've heard about the them and us culture where we feel it's us against management and management against us if you're only in the boardroom if you only listen to yourself and yourselves in there you only get those very limited perspectives so if you don't include other people in the conversation if you don't listen you only hear your own voice and you only have your own thought and your own perspective so it is in in my opinion is extremely important to to listen to everybody and give everybody a chance to have a say without fear of reprisals or ooh if i say this is that a career limiting conversation or comment i was almost fired once for asking what the md did i never i never got an answer um but you know i knew what everybody else did high low medium but i did not know what the md was doing all day came in the morning very friendly chap perfectly decent guy saying hello to everybody went into his office closed his door never saw him again so i just wanted to know what what does he do um almost got me fired so you have you can you can do this in many ways depending on how big your company is if you if you are two four nine whatever in in your organization it's not a it's not a big company you sit down round the table and have a coffee regularly and and just talk thrash it out what do you like what don't you like what do you think we could do differently and that sort of thing just have that conversation if you are a bigger organization you need to put a little bit more procedure around it so you could you could have um a tool um an app whatever it is they exist to to create this vehicle for employee engagement you see engagement is initiated from the top yes engage down but then we have to engage back up again and crisscross you can't just ask questions and take the answers and put them in a pile and do nothing with them so once you've opened yourself up to that it has to be a strategic move and i reckon you should survey your your teams if if you're about sort of you know 30 50 people organization that that only makes sense because it can be done anonymously and there will be reports coming out of it and you can see well i think we need to do an improvement project on this particular thing you then go and engage some of those people who responded in different layers of the organization so high low and middle get to work together and and people can see okay they do take us seriously which means i am going to ask answer the questions next time the survey comes around if you survey too often you get survey fatigue if you do it too infrequently it makes no no sense at all because why are they asking me about this once a year you can't just fix things once once a year yeah so you have to decide to do something with those service with the engagement engagement is a way of life it's not a one-off thing um back in in my supply chain consultancy days i often came across this when we talked about continuous improvement and someone said well yeah we did that five years ago what do you mean you did continuous improvement which one yeah why isn't it which is which part of continuous did you guys not really understand but but sometimes we throw ourselves with great enthusiasm into an initiative and then it becomes actually not very sexy work to keep it going and people lose interest or maybe the people who were enthusiastic have left the organization and not hand it over to somebody else so it has to be a strategy it has to be someone's responsibility and someone to manage it on a daily basis you know and everybody's responsibility to contribute and it can be done once again and it is and it is being done good good in in places not everywhere not everywhere no but no but we have to accept that absolutely has happened yeah so how does consistent pressure erode good mental health it erodes good mental health in the sense that you feel that you can't fulfill your job you are always behind your outbox is not what gives you stress it's the inbox the higher it piles up the more unread emails you have the more pressure you're under so we don't get stressed from what we achieve we get stress from what we do not achieve and if you feel you're constantly under achieving the pressure builds up because tomorrow there will be even more you haven't done or that you need to catch up on over the weekend then you don't have a weekend and then you don't see your family you don't see your your your partner in life and they start to get a little bit hacked off that you're constantly at work you're working nights you're working days you're working weekends it's actually it's a term called leavism where where you work when you should be off so people bring their laptops that's happens their mobile phones that whatever to the pool side when they go on holiday and they might have a cocktail in one hand but they are glued to the mobile phone on the other hand and it does cause a lot of friction in families because why is mommy or daddy never off i want to play with them actually i want to see my wife or my husband once in a while um so when we are on all the time if we don't get time to rest that is when poor mental health sets in and it can take the form of depression it can be anxiety you can be burned out which is a really combination of all of it you just you just can't cope anymore and when you can't cope you're no good to anybody and imagine the higher up you are in the food chain in the company if you are the business owner and you can't cope and you burn out then what does the rest of the business do yeah is there anybody else to pick up the slack or have they already burned out or is the environment so toxic they couldn't be asked so when we look at people in the organization we should look at them as people not as employees if if we take that little mind shift and look at them as as people yes we will find things we may not like it may not be as financially attractive in the immediate term but longer term you get a lot of loyalty you get a lot of advocacy of your business and when people leave they will say i work in an absolutely fantastic place and then you will start to attract more talent unsolicited because people want to work for you people common people go depending on where they are in their lives it's it is not a crime to resign but i've experienced so many times design and you become a non-person nobody speaks to you you're ignored you just you're you're you're not this loyal person anymore i don't get it all i wanted was it was a different type of job that i couldn't get where i was yeah so the least you can do is is to help people on the way if they really don't like where they are just help them genuinely help them not just by sacking them but just what can i do do you need a bit of coaching do what what can i do for you yeah yes that's a there's a cost to that i know that that's the bottom line and all that stuff but sometimes and typically with people you have to invest in the immediate term to get the benefits in the long term i so agree i so agree i'm going to i'm very conscious of time uh peter and i know this is something that we could talk about forever and a day but we're live streaming this into um facebook and i i'm sure there's going to be lots of questions i mean um i'm sure that the people who are listening already have taken so much uh value from this so i'm just going to have go got to do it on my phone because i can't see on the screen what um what questions if any have come up i'm sure there must be some questions somewhere let's see oh there's plenty yeah lots of people are agreeing with you peter um one of them was saying a lot laura two percent what you were describing earlier has happened to her the right support wasn't available and that was some lots of things there um organizations just want to hide these critical life events so they don't have it you know they don't have to do anything uh about them hr's very process driven um hr and in the civil service was distant um demi dump that's a new word for the lexicon carol loves that one i like that one too um i had a better value absolutely you've added masses of value yeah patience is saying uh compassion listening very vital skills in dealing with challenges to support the workforce but you have to learn those skills if they don't come natural to you you have to learn them you have to want to learn them yeah and i think that's that's also something it's okay um you know someone going up the career promotion but if they're going to be a leader or a manager you're leading people you're managing people you need that training to be able to manage those difficult situations manager is more like like a job title isn't it and leader is is the performance of of of that title yes yes um let me see if i can find any um ability and opportunity to contribute was which was something that you said early on in this conversation is key and i so agree with that and patience agrees with you too um lots of people are agreeing with patients there um carol another carol elem is saying you often see these pressures build up when a team is downsized but the processes remain the same and um this impacts on all the members of the team that are left we we should never underestimate the the knock-on effect of someone leaving a team depending on the reason if if the company is downsizing then there will be people disappearing like like i was disappeared once uh made reorganized out but those who are left are the ones we need to be to be to be worried about because they would be wondering when is it my turn when am i next for the chop um and there might not even be a handover of tasks from one person to the next so there would be a whole heap of stuff that needs to get done and nobody knows how to and again that puts more pressure because you're just feeling your way through your sort of trial and erroring your way through something that's quite important to a client somewhere else because there's always a client at the end of what we do whether it's an internal client or an external client we we never just do things and then that's it there's always someone who needs what we have done in one way or another exactly the pressure just mounts uh lara two percent it's so important to have some joy in our life otherwise we're at risk of burnout and she was recently reading um in forbes bought out uh is a bigger rink that's a new word for the mexican i haven't heard that one either thank you i remember that one well you know it it happens at school it happens at work and a lot of the unruly kids at school are actually underwhelmed they they work it out they're bored not challenged enough and you can be totally unchallenged at work so no matter what you do as long as you do something allowed to do something that you're good at every day then that helps a lot burnout is not not something primarily to do with the long hours it's the quality of those hours if you hate every second of those hours you will burn out but there's a lot of people who work long hours um loving what they're doing and they don't burn out because it's a positive experience but still we do need to take care of ourselves and take a break yeah yeah um so important and yet so often um peter abraham some time is pressured and results needed to have happened yesterday i think that's what you were saying earlier yeah um absolutely um okay what should hr do to build back trust up with the people that's a and a question from carol caldwell that's a big question that i would like to speak with hr about because i'm sure they they have they hear this they get this in the neck all the time i'm sure and they must have some ideas of what can can be can be done i just think we we need to maybe redesign and and rethink what hr is there for because hr is not and never was the on-site um therapy group they they aren't trained as that yes i know there's something called cipd and and they learn a lot about people and process and also a bit of psychology mixed in but they're not they're not trained therapists that's not what they're there for they they are not the place where you can go and cry mommy and a lot of people would like to have that place but it's not hr not not in its current format it may be in some organizations but the traditional look and feel of hr is is a service provider to the business so if a manager wants something like a new employee or a training course they go to hr and they ask them to source that particular thing and then when a rank and file person has a problem with someone at their level they will go and talk to the manager um these research i i was told for pandemic i can't see what interchange was that managers spend on average 20 of their time sorting out conflict all right nine to five monday to friday that is one working day gone for a manager dealing with conflict so if there was a different environment in the business there would be less conflict no conflict happens a lot of people it's not always a bad thing if someone has different opinion you can investigate that opinion maybe there can be some good things coming out of that but i i think we need to include hr in in more in the human side not just in the process besides because you cannot and i've been in that situation you cannot go to your manager and complain about your manager yeah it does it just does not work but you also have to be able to go somewhere else higher up sideways into hr and make that complaint and do that grievance if it's that bad without fear of reprisals or losing your job or being ostracized by your boss or whatever so yeah i mean i so agree with that because it's not there nobody's gonna do it but you this whole conversation we've had just just tells me that or emphasizes how i hate the term soft skills because they are the hardest skills ever dealing with people is the most difficult thing you can do yeah it's easy to take a machine apart and put it back again because it looks the same as it did yesterday but people are not the same every day they are different they they you know if you turn turn up for work monday to to thursday and you get burgled thursday night you will be different friday morning if you turn up at all because you might be picking up pieces if if someone has has a car accident on the way into work how's that going to affect them you know we we just are not made of plastic and so we cannot have this one size fits all and when i didn't speak to a ceo who complains well i thought i was hiring people not patience well that just shows the attitude doesn't it yeah no people are not patients but people are just you and i we have good days and birthdays people absolutely and you know we've no idea what is going on in other people's lives and to a certain extent it's not our business but it becomes perhaps it should become our business when it it's affecting um business so so there's there's so much that can be done and i see too many businesses just go for the what i call shiny box syndrome they they buy a service like an eap for example and then it's just taking the box if you have a problem you can ring this number we've done our bit we're now a good employer but there's so much more you can do before that i'm not saying it's a bad thing i'm just saying it's not enough and what is the starting point is the stuff that doesn't cost anything yes and that is the compassion that is the trust that is the ability and willingness to listen to understand not just to respond and when you start there when you're open about how the business is doing without spilling all the beans because there is confidential stuff not everybody needs to know everything but if you're more open about the ups and downs you will have your your employees with you in the ops and the downs but if they feel that they're being shafted or things kept from them they will run away as quick as they can yeah and you may it may not be the best thing for your business again i agree i'm laura tupe is just questioning eap employees employee assistance program or employer assistant program i can never work out which one it is but yeah but it is something shifting the responsibility to somebody well that's that's harsh but often true it is but it is something that you can put in place where employees can go and seek help for whatever it is depending on how the scheme is set up and and how it's provided for but again you know um good mental health is not a benefit it's not shouldn't be shouldn't be looked at as a benefit it's it's the right necessity it's a necessity you you cannot run a business with worn out and down in the mouth and disheartened employees you cannot well you can but it won't be it won't be a great business yeah yeah okay well i'd like to thank you peter really for your time this has been so fascinating and enlightening and i'm sure the audience have taken lots of insights and value from it and i think it would be a great if you could just let our audience know the best way for people to get hold of you especially if they'd like to follow up with you yeah this is a point where i haven't got a fancy slide i can just hold up with my contact it says on um but my name is peter abrahamson i am on linkedin you can search for me under that name or you can look for the emotional weightlifter or you can look up better lives i started my business better lives because that was what my client wanted they told me i want a better life so i um i call my business lad i am on linkedin you might be able to find me on facebook i'm not very active on facebook because my clients mostly live on linkedin but i do have a profile and if you if you can remember what i look like now you might be able to also look at the face on on facebook i'm i'm happy to take emails my my email is peter better hyphen live dot co dot uk uh my website is bitter hyphen lives at the dot code uk and all the https and www's and stuff in in front so go find my website um email me ring me i'm i'm happy with that my contact details are on my linkedin profile and uh yeah it's been a real pleasure to talk to you marie and thank you so much for including me in in this um it's my pleasure it's my pleasure and there's lots of love coming through for you saying it's been a great you know they've really enjoyed the conversation so thank you so much um so i'm i'm pleased everyone's enjoyed it thank you so much for joining us and you know it's been fascinating and my name is marie fraser you can find me on linkedin too at marie t fraser or at mariefraser.com so be sure to check in um in the inspire summit it is running all through the month of august today is the first day so there's lots of fantastic speakers coming up lots of value to be uh to be gleaned and heard and so i'm going to say goodbye wishing you all a lovely day and hope to see you in another chat on another summit thank you very much everyone

2022-08-06 14:58

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