The Fight Against Worldwide Child Slavery & the Sex Trade | Jim Caviezel and Tim Ballard | EP 372

The Fight Against Worldwide Child Slavery & the Sex Trade | Jim Caviezel and Tim Ballard | EP 372

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this is the best interview I've ever had in  my life I love your line of questioning and um   getting to what what is real I hooked into Tim has  a childlike quality to him and I stay with that   innocence and that and don't take that innocence's  weakness or uh and uh when I read the scripture   I I feel truth good evil and I find the good  and let that just Pierce The Darkness [Music]   hello everyone watching and listening today  I have the pleasure of speaking to two people   someone you most likely know for his portrayal  of Jesus of Nazareth in Passion of the Christ   Jim Caviezel and also someone you should know  if you don't already The Man Behind operation   Underground Railroad Tim Ballard we discussed the  new film The Sound of freedom wherein Mr cavizo   plays Tim Bellard in the telling of his real life  story detailing his fight against the increasingly   worldwide and pervasive childhood sex trade the  film The Sound of Freedom releases on July 4th   so about a week and a half ago I got a text  message from Tony Robbins uh suggesting that   I watch a new film called the sound of freedom and  I did that about four days ago with my wife Tammy   and was quite struck by the movie and I decided  to follow up on it it details out the efforts of   one man Tim Bellard to investigate uh the a child  sexual slave ring and to rescue the children that   were associated with that but it also points to  a broader social problem which is the spread of   sexual and slave trafficking worldwide abetted by  the gnat which is a great Avenue for Psychopathic   criminals to pursue their darkest desires with  very little risk of being caught especially on   the multinational basis so I've decided to I to to  reach out to Tim Bellard who is the um the man who   who the movie is about and to Jim Caviezel who's  the actor that plays him to talk about what all   this signifies and so Tim let's start with you  I mean the movie makes the case that there is   a widely expanding network of slavery essentially  making itself manifest worldwide concentrating in   no small part on very young children who  are being sold repeatedly to pedophilic Psychopaths to have at their will and of course  can be sold repeatedly for that purpose and the   movie makes the case that this is now an  operation that's rivaling the drug trade   in magnitude so you know it sounds like yet  another right-wing conspiracy so please why   don't you walk us through what you know and and  and help me understand and everybody watching and   listening exactly what you think is going on yeah  thank you so much uh Jordan we're so grateful uh   you take your time to do this with us so I spent  12 years as a special agent undercover operator   with the Department of Homeland Security most of  my time 90 of that time was spent investigating   these cases child crimes child trafficking and in  fact those numbers are correct uh that are being   this these are Department of Labor U.N these  are sources that um you know the the best we   have that say that there's close to Six Million  children or more who are forced into sex slavery   labor slavery or organ harvesting and I can  attest that I have been involved in in cases   involving all three of those forms of slavery  multiple times and is absolutely is a real thing   um it's not even far far from home uh it's the  United States is the number one consumer year   after year of child rate material and oftentimes  we we're close to number one in production   um and it's a serious matter you know the case um  the story and the sound of Freedom kicks off with   the rescue of a little boy at the Port of Entry uh  the southern border that's a real story a real boy   um that I I was on that Port of Entry I was 10  years on the southern border so when you have 85   000 unaccompanied minors showing up in the last  two years being let into the country without the   sponsor being vetted DNA checked background  checked um you know I called the economy of   pedophilia at the United States where the demand  85 000 children thousands of them are under five   years old are are LED into the country so we  have we have a serious serious problem and   uh it's it's not being addressed as it should  be hopefully this film can do that have have   what has been your experience with regard to  so-called mainstream Media or Legacy media   coverage how much attention has been paid to this  and if not much why and if reasonably who and how   well I think not not very much has been  uh you know attention has been given by   mainstream media oftentimes it's more innocent  than cynical perhaps where it's just this is too   dark I don't want to expose our audience to  this horrific thing um you know we I I film   we film our operations I mean I I'm going  to post today another operation in in West   Africa of a baby Factory I mean these are real  cases where they've they've kidnapped women   um as young as 13 year olds and children and  they impregnate them they rape them and they   make babies and they take these babies and sell  them for their organs sell them for sex sell them   for a Satanic ritual abuse like it's it's it does  sound crazy that's why I film it our operations   we film our operations so that we can show the  world this is very real it's really happening   um and I think if there's two million children  forced into commercial sex which is this the   most uh kind of credible statistic that we can  find a lot of people are involved so there is a   more cynical answer to your question which may  be there's people that don't want this exposed   the because they're involved in it so I'm going to  harass you a bit here um from the Wikipedia page   um there is some not that I'm particular  particular fan of Wikipedia Pages uh depending on   the circumstances but there are some criticisms of  what you're doing and I thought we might as well   um address them right off the bat bat  because people who are watching are   going to be look man if I was coming across  this for the first time and in some ways I am   I've got two choices in front of me don't I I can  either presume that you've discovered something   that's ongoing and of tremendous significance  that's terribly dark or I can assume that the   difficult work that you had done for a decade um  genuinely addressing these problems has made you   hypersensitive to a threat and willing to magnify  it and it would be easier just to ignore you as a   consequence now that would be the preferable  um outcome to such an investigation wouldn't   it so you can as as you said you can understand  why people might want to avert their eyes from   such a thing so I'm going to walk through these  criticisms and maybe you could you know you can   respond to them and we can get that out of the  way before we go deeper into the film and and   your your uh in your your uh your operations so  so your group and this is Operation Underground   Railroad and tell me if I get anything wrong here  says it devours conspiracy theories though founder   Tom Bellard was criticized for refusing  to condemn the Q Anon conspiracy theory   um I have no idea what the hell that  means do you know what that's referring to   yeah absolutely we um that's that's a lie in  Wikipedia we have absolutely an rfaqs for years   have have condemned the majority of of what we  see um with conspiracy theories uh so I they like   to attribute me to the Q Anon movement um there  may be some truths in there but there's so many   falsehoods on top of that so our FAQs refute that  immediately um because it can it discredits the   movement in fact I would go so far as to consider  that maybe certain people who don't want this   known are responsible for some of the conspiracy  theories in order to discredit the movement   um and uh they go too far they go too far in in  their assessment of things but yeah we absolutely   have just disavowed uh what's generally coming out  of of Q Anon yeah well it says you know it's very   vague on Wikipedia it says to condemn the Q Anon  conspiracy theory well I know perfectly well that   there are more than one conspiracy theories let's  say on Q and on so I'm not even exactly sure what   it's referring to what is there a particular  conspiracy theory that um you were criticized   for refusing to condemn do you have any more  specific details about that I mean I I'm not   sure what exactly they're talking about Pro they  might be uh referring to the fact that there's   something called adrenal Chrome where they take  they're taking children's blood and devouring it   and so forth uh and I've explained my experience  with that and and I just did in West Africa and   other places we've seen this in in several parts  of the continent of Africa and it's very real it's   very real This Witch doctory they take these  children we they they take their organs they   take their blood they they they drink it they take  the genitalia of children and and hang it over the   rooftop of their businesses thinking that the the  dark Gods will bless them these are real things   um and so I might say something like that and  then they connect it to something uh that a q   Anon person says about you know a celebrity who  must be doing this too but there's no evidence   to back that and they make they make a false  connection there um and and so that's that's   the only example I can think of okay got it well  the next thing it says is that the the operation   underground Railway fall mostly claimed that it  had entered a partnership with American Airlines   that was in 2022 so what do you what do you what  do you have to say about that oh there's a great   one so a PR firm uh who represented um us made a  deal with American Airlines uh came to us and said   shoot the video they're going to put this video  on your uh we're gonna put there for this video on   the airlines they shot the video of me I just get  a call from our PR Company to put me in a studio   I give a video that I think I'm talking to the  passengers for one month uh on American Airlines   apparently the deal fell through the PR Company  didn't tell us that and our our marketing company   our marketing team put out hey we're going to be  on American Airlines the PR Company apologized   we had we fired them they said we can't believe  we didn't get the message to you and that was it   and of course there's people that want so badly  for us to be wrong or us to not do what we say we   do so they exploited that I think that was a vice  magazine very incredibly dishonest uh Journal uh I   can't call him journalist us the vice magazine did  they've done a series of hit pieces on this and I   I encourage people I encourage people to read it  readvice readvice because everything they say is   so ridiculous and so dishonest right right yes  well and I I do believe if I remember correctly   the advice is also declared bankruptcy in the last  few weeks and I can't imagine an organization more   richly deserving there was a 2021 follow-up  article from Vice but I don't think we're   going to I'll just read part of it because it's so  ridiculous conflating consensual sex work with sex   trafficking yeah well that's exactly the kind of  Weasley um what would you call it criticism that   I'd expect from people who were trying to justify  the sorts of behaviors that you are attempting to   expose um then there's a 2021 article in slate  criticizing a 2014 raid conducted by operation   underground Railway in the Dominican Republic  saying that it was likely to have traumatized   the traffic children um Ann Gallagher an  authority on human trafficking wrote in 2015   that our had an alarming lack of understanding  about how sophisticated criminal trafficking   networks must be approached and dismantled and  called the work of our arrogant unethical and   illegal so and have a way of that oh thank you  I'm grateful for this opportunity so someone   like Ann Gallagher who lives 3000 miles away from  any operation we've ever done is not qualified to   talk about what our operations she can't give  any uh details she can't give any examples   um the Slate article is a fun one to address I've  addressed it several times um we um early on we   brought a blogger down to do to to watch our  operations we we invite people down but if Tony   Robbins has been down um we invite politicians the  Attorney General of Utah's coming our operations   um if we're hiding something that's the last thing  we would of course do so we bring this journalist   this blogger I won't call her a journalist  um and we thought she was a friend and she   came and watched a legit legitimate operation  happened in in Dominican Republic there were   seven traffickers who showed up seven traffickers  arrested there were um 20 plus uh people rescued   nine of them were children you can't you can't  sometimes you can't always uh control who shows   up to the sting party the traffickers bring  who they will but nine children uh showed up   they were all liberated from the the the the  the um you know the control of their captors   um this blogger then wrote two glowing stories  about it that she witnessed this she had very   minimal exposure to the operation itself  she she witnessed it some seven years later   she decides to use it in my opinion to  somehow increase her social media following   as our foundation grew and she writes a story  it's in slate now here's here's the key thing   um nine children rescued and nine children  had three years of Aftercare services in   this operation provided by International Justice  mission one of the top authorities in Aftercare   and and fighting human trafficking um seven  traffickers were not only arrested but all seven   were convicted so she chose the wrong case to  criticize now tellingly if if anyone's gonna write   a story about that operation good bad or otherwise  and they leave out the part that says seven   traffickers were arrested and seven traffickers  were convicted and nine children were liberated   and had three years of Aftercare to heal them if  you leave that part out either you are extremely   incompetent as a researcher and writer or you're  a liar either way the story has zero credibility   on that fact alone that you because she doesn't  even report on those two on those two essential   elements all right well we've hypothetically  dispensed with Vice which of course is a   yeah well it's pretty funny that that's what they  named their organization as far as I'm concerned   and we'll leave the Slate issue aside Jim let me  ask you a couple of questions if you don't mind   do you want to first of all tell people um about  your involvement with Angel Studios a little bit   about your career and why this particular movie  sound of Freedom it's it it's opening what in   early July is it July when does it come out it  comes out uh July 4th week so next week next week   it's it's it's out in theaters uh Nationwide so  so let me turn to Jim Jim can you hear me yes yes   all right so yeah do you want to detail out your  your association with Angel Studios tell everybody   first who Angel studios are what they've done  and I've watched a lot of the chosen by the way   which I thought was extremely high quality um do  you tell us about the studio tell us about your   involvement with them about your career and then  about your attraction to this particular movie   well let's start with the movie first um I  have three uh adopted children from China   I became aware of the dangers that go on um with  children around the world and through that process   um then I became aware of Tim Ballard and  coincidentally then my friend Eduardo verastigi   brought me this script because many of the  actors that they had offered it to didn't   want to get involved in this particular project  I read the script I love the movie Taken and I   thought this is like taken but with a much bigger  heart then Tim Ballard came to the meeting he had   seen two films that I did one was called The  Count of Monte Cristo and then the other one   was The Passion of the Christ and he felt that  I'd be the right guy to play him Angel Studios   I had nothing no connection to them until a few  months ago when they wanted to do this movie   and they wanted their idea was to sell 2 million  tickets for these two million trafficked children   so why why is it that a number of actors why in  your estimation did a number of actors turn down   the opportunity to play the role what and and and  why and why did you decide to forego that risk and   to and to climb aboard I foregoed the risk because  when you have uh three children that you loved   when you'd give your life for it kind of connects  into Tim Ballard and Tim did this for this little   girl and the children that he saves it's something  uh is a greater purpose that even your career   uh you know like I I went through this with Mel  Gibson when we did the passion that my career   was the last thing I thought of what I thought  about was the God I love and I put this in how   I look at it is is that this God that I love it  he loves me and he deserved to be loved back and   so I I would be nothing without him he gave me my  purpose and this life so um the the Tim Ballard I   was very fortunate that he had seen those um films  and um when I looked at and I think Tim made this   comparison Schindler's List was a very uh powerful  weapon but it came 50 years too late this film is   now this is exposing it now during that time and  I believe that is probably why it's easier to get   an OCTA to do a movie 50 years later there's no  controversy it's over but the the individuals   imagine if Rwanda if that story had been made  that movie had been made during that time or   that they could see it you know it you you have  to look at these situations and understand that   um good people sit back and do nothing and allow  this evil to occur there's got to be people that   stand up in the time that it occurs and that's  what drew me to the whole story in the first place   and do you do you how how do you feel about  the movie now you've seen the movie in its   entirety it's about to be released uh it's a  fully fledged high quality production I was   particularly impressed by the cinematography um it  it's also extraordinarily well edited the acting   um I don't want to flatter you but the acting is  extremely high quality it's very realistic movie   um how how do you how how do you feel about your  involvement now that everything is done and and   how do you feel about the what would you say  the production capacity of Angel Studios which   is a relatively you know it's a relatively new a  relative newcomer on the on the mass entertainment   block when I was sitting next in Tim Ballard and  he leaned over and he started to weep uh heavily I   knew I did my job so do you want to run us briefly  through I don't want to give away the entire plot   because that would obviously be pointless but do  you want to just run this briefly through Jim the   the the the plot of the movie and then I'll turn  to Tim and fill in some of the background details   of his life and so I play Tim Ballard he's a  Homeland Security he sets up these um uh sting   operations to take down these very very bad men uh  to save traffic children and one particular case   one of the traffickers that he takes down earned  slipachinski uh who's he he rescues this boy and   the little boy turns to him and says will you save  my sister and Tim goes back gets the direction   from above and from his wife and goes back and  he sells everything to find this little girl   so what I liked about the script so I've  noticed that one of the most effective ways   of communicating complex ideas effectively is to  particularize the problem and so what happens in   this movie is that the broad problem of sexual of  of slavery and human trafficking and the somewhat   narrower problem of sexual trafficking of  children is zeroed uh is is what focused   on a particular case and so that gives the movie a  very powerful narrative underpinning right because   when our problem is particularized and you can see  how it affects actual specific people's lives it   becomes much more realistic and much more palpable  and I thought the movie did a good job of that   uh Tim do you want to walk everybody listening  through let's go back into the details of your   life now you worked for this you you worked we  worked for the Special Forces per se and who who   are you working for before you decided to forego  your career and to pursue this the case that we're   describing so I worked for 12 years as a special  agent and undercover undercover operator for the   Department of Homeland Security the investigative  division called Homeland Security investigations   10 of those years were spent on the border uh  tracking child traffickers people who would   exploit children with child exploitation material  so I really learned a lot in 2006 the laws changed   in the United States and for the first time  U.S agents were permitted and encouraged to go   overseas and find children who Americans were  abusing and we could now hold those Americans   accountable as if they had committed that crime  on U.S soil that's that's what really changed my   life because I started I speak Spanish fluently  and they sent me overseas South of the Border   that's when my eyes opened up and I started seeing  the children that I used to only see mostly on the   on the pornography on the child expectation  material cases um but it was tormenting me uh   the US government unwittingly was because if I  couldn't find that connection back to the United   States States the American kid or the American  pedophile I had to come home but the problem   is I've already been exposed to the children  I've already been exposed to the problem and   oftentimes have made myself debate and in 2012  I had enough on this case I kind of went more I   went further than otherwise I probably should have  the movie didn't have time to tell you that there   was another case in Haiti at the same time that I  was working uh thinking there was a U.S Nexus and  

I was told in both instances to come home and you  couldn't work these cases and that's when I had a   very consequential conversation with my wife and  I said if I stay here if I do this operation with   or without my badge it doesn't matter at this  point I I'm I can do the work we will save kids   um and um but I I have to lose my job and we have  six children and this is this is a moral dilemma   like I've never faced in my life and I was hoping  my wife would have responded with get your ass   home you can't you can't abandon us you know first  of all you're gonna die without the top cover of   the US government if you continue this and who's  going to pay the bills and feed the feed the kids   she didn't say that she said to me you have to  quit your job it was that easy for her um it   became spiritual for her even she felt a calling  and a responsibility that she might have to reckon   with one day when she meets her maker and I knew  that she felt that way when she told me this in   the crucial moment of decision about two days  before I ended up turning my badge and gun over   and and went private she said to me I will not let  you jeopardize my salvation by not doing this and   when she said those words and I knew she meant  those words that changed everything for me and   we jumped into really just an irrational Act of  service I might call it because it wasn't rational   in many in many ways but ultimately it ended in  the operation UC depicted in the film which shows   54 children uh some uh some adult young young  adult women were in that group as well rescued   on that island but what the movie doesn't uh have  the time to report is that in actuality was 120   um there was two other locations being taken down  at the same time and there's a documentary that's   going to follow uh in in the wake of sound of  Freedom called triple take Angel Studios will   put it out uh documenting the entire story and so  in the end it was successful and we were able to   build upon that success and I founded operation  Underground Railroad I run another Foundation   that was founded by Glenn Beck called the Nazarene  fund and we're doing these kind of operations all   over the world today so how let's go back in  time to before you worked as a security agent   for the homelands homeless or an agent for the  homeland security investigations unit how did   you how were you trained to do that like what was  your background before you became employed as an   agent and what was it about you that made you  capable of engaging in this sort of operation   so I I I got a graduate degree in um International  politics and I always wanted to be in federal law   enforcement my first job was CIA I was there  doing 911 um working in the operations center   in the wake of 9 11. I found out that I studied  terrorism and weapons of mass destruction uh that   was the the actually the degree I got at the  Monterey Institute of international studies   um and so um it was an easy recruit into the  CIA because you know 911 had just happened when   I found out that one of the terrorists Muhammad  attah had staged his attack from Mexicali Mexico   across the border and I speak Spanish I wanted  to go fight terrorism on the southern border so   I ended up jumping on the ship from CIA and  I joined the newly created Homeland Security   Department and it became a special agent for six  months I was tracking those kind of movements   uh you know not not human trafficking or child  exploitation but money guns terrorism six months   into that Endeavor I was called into the office  of a supervisor and they asked me if I would   please forgo everything that I wanted to do with  my career and help them start a child crimes unit   I do not know why they asked me uh one thing he  did say to me was you're a young agent but you're   a person of faith and we know that about you and  that's that's a requirement or you're you're your   soul will be crushed the Bible is a root of  wisdom inspiration and spiritual nourishment   the Halo app empowers you to explore the Bible's  profound teachings and to effortlessly incorporate   them into your daily life a great place to start  while you deepen your understanding of the Bible   is to check out father Mike schmitz's Bible in a  year available on the hollow app exclusively for   brief daily readings and Reflections here you can  dive into an extensive library of Bible reading   plans accompanied by insightful Reflections  and audio guided meditations whether you're   a seasoned Bible reader or just starting your  journey hallow provides a platform for you to   engage with scripture like never before studying  the Bible's literary Brilliance has influenced   countless writers poets and artists throughout  history by 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conceptions   of humanity per se let's say the nature of the  cosmos and what it means to be human right I mean   when you're when you're in contact with people  who are capable of that level of Darkness you   start to understand something about the nature  of the human soul that you can't understand any   other way and that can be a I mean that's the  sort of thing that gives people post traumatic   stress disorder when they're soldiers so and and  now you said also your supervisors had an inkling   that you might be protected against that at least  to some degree because of your faith so let's walk   through what you learned and encountered first  what what did you see when you were working as   part of this child sex crimes unit what I saw was  so shocking Jordan uh I thought child sex crimes   would be 15 year olds 16 year olds uh my brain  couldn't comprehend something more evil than   abusing that age the very first case I worked in  2002 I believe I was given a bunch of VHS videos   some hard drives to look at that had been seized  in a warrant the very first image I saw um were um there were three uh three little boys ah  that were probably seven five and three   and they looked uh like they looked like my  children they had you know they had blonde   blonde eye blonde hair blue eyes and they  were being just raped raped these three   little boys by this pedophile and I was  so shocked I fell to my knees I dry heaved   thinking I was going to throw up into the  waste basket I jumped into my car I drove   to my children's School my three oldest kids I  checked them out I still remember in my mind I   can still see dentist dentist appointment I wrote  and I grabbed them I took them home and just   sobbed on the floor my wife came in and I just I  wouldn't let the kids go just holding them shaking   um that was my very first experience uh you talked  about PTSD I absolutely deal with PTSD to this day   um I I took too long to actually deal with it  uh that's another story um and I thought I can't   I can't do this I can't do this um I started  getting help immediately uh because I didn't   want to quit and uh that that's that's what this  is that's what this is and those kind of videos   have increased over the last couple years by  five thousand percent yeah well in in Canada   um we just had a report from an organization  called the Western Standard that one million child   sexual exploitation photos and videos have been  identified in an Alberta child porn investigation   one million photos eight arrests made okay so  that's some indication of the widespread nature   of the problem now you said that when you first  encountered this material it made you physically   ill and also terrified for the safety of your  children but then also it necessitated you seeking   um health I suppose or Aid I mean I've worked  with people who've had post-traumatic stress   disorder generally what happens is that tragedy is  not enough to give someone post-traumatic stress   disorder even if it's rather severe it has to be  a combination of tragedy and malevolence and the   real trauma comes as a consequence of contact  with evil with malevolence and what people   generally have to do in order to recover  from that is to develop a rather profound   philosophy of evil and you know a religious  faith in in its most fundamental Essence is a   philosophy of Good and Evil it it does detail  out the Heart of Darkness among human beings   point out to people this is particularly although  you not not uniquely true of the Christian   tradition but particularly true that that capacity  for evil lurks in the heart of everyone and that   are fundamental moral obligation as we Soldier  and here on Earth is to overcome that proclivity   within and also to stand up against it in the  external world and so you said you received   some Aid after you had been exposed to this first  set of videos um what what is it about the way you   looked at the world that had to change in order  for you to adapt to what you were encountering   well I had to come to grips with the the an idea  that I had never been confronted with before that   there are people and not a few but millions  of people only millions of of pedophiles could   justify a demand of millions of child exploitation  uh material videos and so forth uh the first   person you see arrested in the movie is a real  person named ursulchinski in sound of Freedom he   had over 2 million pieces of child rape material  in his house so um to to be confronted with the   reality that there are people on this planet and  like like I said not a few but but Millions who   want to indulge in watching five-year-old children  be raped and sexually assaulted in ways that and   I'm sorry to be so raw but I feel comfortable  with you Dr Peterson but uh to to to watch   children's bodies actually break in the act  of sexual assault acts that your mind couldn't   conjure up if you tried to conjure it up and  that it's real that is so shocking to the system   um it changes your life forever I I tell  people if I feel like I've had a million   holes burned into my brain because I've watched  thousands of hours of that kind of material not   only not only watch it and I love the scene  that Jim depicts where he's it's that's very   real I I break I can't watch I can't watch  the movie but the movie's very good the   movie doesn't show any of this by the way it  doesn't show anything like this I don't want   people to run away and be scared but you  see the scene where the the camera flashes   um a close-up into Jim's eyes and that's that was  me for for 10 years not only watching but writing   writing it in details for the court to see for  the prosecutors to see and and raising children   at the same time that are the very same age and  fortunately or unfortunately for me I have now I   have nine children that at the time I I left the  government at six and so I can always identify   the age of a child with one of my own children  and my mind was almost automatically doing is   I would superimpose my own children's faces and  persons onto these children and that's that led to   um that led to the PTSD I'll be honest um and  almost a paranoia about what would happen to my   children and watching my children and I've come a  long ways and and I'm I'm able to deal with it but   I I I I was determined never to quit and so I just  sought more help and I I won't quit so okay so Tim   I'm I'm gonna walk you through what I know about  how people turn into the sort of pedophile that   you find so you and everyone else I suppose  or virtually everyone else finds so mysterious   so I'm going to refer first to the story of Cain  and Abel because it actually puts its finger on   the process in a stunning manner so what happens  in that story is that two different Pathways to   adaptation are detailed out and they become the  Cardinal Pathways of adaptation that characterize   the whole human race immersed as it is from that  point onward in history instead of in the Garden   of Eden and one is the pathway of Cain and the  other is the pathway of Abel now Abel makes high   quality sacrifices he's all in right he puts  himself on the line and he does the real thing   and as a consequence God finds God uh finds  he finds favor with God and His sacrifices   are rewarded he does well and everyone loves  him and he thrives and Cain his sacrifices are   not of the same quality he tries to cut the  corners and to and to pull the wool over his   eyes and and God's eyes and everyone else's eyes  and as a consequence his sacrifices are rejected   and instead of clueing the hell in and waking  up and taking responsibility for his failure   he decides that he's going to call out God for  creating a cosmos that's cosmically unfair and   unjust and the evidence for that is Kane's  failure and Abel's success and so he has a   little chat with God and he basically calls  him out and says you know I'm breaking myself   in half here and nothing's going my way and  Abel gets everything he wants and you know   how dare you make a cosmos so radically unjust  and improper and why don't you just straighten   yourself out and God says if you did well  you would be rewarded for it and you should   look to yourself and then he says something  even worse and this is very subtle because   um it's complicated to understand it unless you  look at multiple translations or potentially the   original Hebrew which I can't read but I read  the multiple translations God says to Cain   the spirit of sin crouches at your doorstep  like a sexually aroused predatory animal   and you have invited it in to have its way with  you and so now if you study the development of the   fantasies of very very dark people you see that  they brewed and fantasize in isolation for years   and the fantasies get darker and darker and darker  so they're bitter and resentful to begin with   and then they start fantasizing about well  what they would want that can take a sexual   end or it can take a very violent and or it can  take both and what they're really after is the   ultimate in Revenge and on the sexual front they  find a kick in extending the what would you call   it unacceptability of the fantasy one stage at a  time um the the famous and extremely attractive   sexual serial killer what was his name he's  a famous photograph of him like this very   attractive man do you remember his dad Bundy  Ted Bundy Ted Bundy detailed out exactly how   his fantasies progressed as he became more and  more involved with pornography and what happens   in some sense is that these people who are nursing  these terrible fantasies want to stay on the edge   of novelty and so their fantasies get darker and  darker and darker as they progress down that road   and so after a thousand such micro progressions  they end up in exactly the sort of pit that   you're describing and some of that is pure sexual  kick because of the novelty and but it's got this   sadistic and perverse uh vengeful twist and you  could think about it this way you know I think   it says in the gospels that you know it would be  better that that a most Millstone was hung around   your neck and that you were cast into the abyss  than to do harm to any of God God's children let's   say and the that's actually where the perverse  Delight comes because the most egregious possible   sin let's say is the violent sexual abuse of the  most innocent possible person and the perverse   novelty kick is highest at exactly that point and  then that just goes from bad to worse and there's   a thousand or even ten thousand micro decisions  that go along with that there's also a great book   called Ordinary men this is well worth reading  although it's a bloody catastrophe to read I'll   tell you it details out how a group of German  policemen who were moved to Poland during World   War II were transformed from ordinary middle class  working class or sorry ordinary working class men   um old enough to not have been raised under the  Nazi regime by the way and so not propagandized   into a kind of mindless obedience how they went  from being perfectly ordinary policemen to the   sort of people who could take naked pregnant women  out into the middle of the field and shoot them in   the back of the head and it isn't like they had  an easy time with that some of them reported the   same sort of thing that you reported when you  first watched that video they would they what   they were being called upon to do stage by stage  made them physically ill and they had a commander   who actually had told them that they could leave  the service if they didn't want to continue with   their duties but they felt Duty bound not to lead  leave their comrades having to mop up the terrible   situation but it does a lovely job of detailing  out how your movement from normality to Absolute   perversity is a consequence of ten thousand micro  um what would you say micro violations of your own   conscience not all of the micro obviously so you  know you need to know about the vengefulness you   need to know about the kick of sadism that's that  novelty kick that produces a dopaminergic kick   that heightens sexual satisfaction and so there's  an there's an element of sadistic misery that can   add novelty to sex that's particularly attractive  to people who are bitter and resentful because   they actually can't find any willing sexual  partners and so they're angry at the world   and shake their fist to God because of it and so  anyways that's a bit of the developmental course   of such of such a lovely descent into hell and and  the interesting thing about it is that people Brew   Day like you don't get to the point where you're  watching pornographic videos of children being   raped without hundreds or even thousands of hours  of increasingly demented voluntary fantasy and   that's that allowing the spirit of sin that would  otherwise crouch on your doorstep to enter your   house and have its way with you right it's like  a collaborative Venture with Satan himself that's   the most straightforward way of describing it and  so well so that's I don't know what you have to   say about that but I'll let you have at her I'll  say this that everything you're saying absolutely   he resonates with my anecdotal experiences dealing  with these people I look into their eyes and what   you're describing is what I see though I've never  been able to articulate it like you just have   so I appreciate being armed with with um with an  understanding that it will help me uh evangelize   more clearly to others about the dangers of  of over stimulation and overview support of   pornography and and shaking hands with the devil  so thank you for that that was very insightful   so I I spent a bit of time um not a lot but  a bit of time inside a maxim security prison   when I was a kid I worked with a very strange  psychologist that was there and one of the   things that really shocked me and I I think this  shocked me enough to change my whole life was   I I met these I met this one prisoner who was a  pretty non-descript looking character he took me   for a walk out in the yard away from a gym full  of like weight lifting Ax Murderer monsters and   rapists and we went for a walk out in the yard  and the psychologist called us back and told me   later in the office that this guy who's about  five two pretty non-pre-possessing guy had uh   made two policemen Neil in front of him begged  for their lives in reference to their families   and then shot them both in the back of the head  and and kicked them aside and the shocking thing   to me was you know you kind of think that if you  met pure evil it would it would have a monstrous   form and you know the thing that shocked me about  that was the non-descript nature of this guy you   know his his absolutely banal ordinariness  the fact that you could just walk past him   on the street you'd never know he wasn't some  monster you know the Monstrous character of   Satan in your imagination is you know a figure  that's terrifying to behold instead of someone   normal you know what I mean normally in that  cringing sense these people that you've interacted   with like what's your what's your reaction to them  when you talk to them the pedophiles when you talk   to them and when you arrest them my experience  is very similar to what you just described very   nondescript people of all walks of life we've  we've we've arrested and I've interrogated   um Educators uh lawyers law enforcement clergyman  um and and uh sitting across from them there's but   with no apparent physicality that would tell you  who they are but I will say this when they start   talking and I look into their eyes that's when  I can I sense something that that really scares   the hell out of me um and the way they talk  about children when they get there and it's   it's something that they've been able to normalize  and they're speaking to me about children almost   like they're talking about you know the weather or  you know talking about buying and selling children   like you talk about buying and selling computer  parts or an automobile or something and that's   where I thought you something has taken over  you something non-human has made you less human   um and I've never been able to figure it  out uh only that it creeps me out and and   um and I usually end up getting them to confess  because they have brought themselves to a place   where they think they're okay they think that  it's somehow normal I don't know if that makes   sense how do they do Dr Peterson well well the  the degree of rationalization that has to with   each with each step forward in the progress of  the fantasy there has to be a step forward in the   self-deception with regards to self-description  right so imagine that you're you're attempting to   cling to a sense of yourself at least as normal  but even maybe as a moral agent I mean the the   more forthright pedophiles claim that they're  only allowing children to express their true   sexual desires and that what they're actually  doing is forming the best relationship with the   children that they've ever had now of course  there's part of them that knows that that's   an absolutely bloody screaming hellish lie but  you get to that lie like I said with a thousand   micro lies right and you're modifying your  self-conception along the way I mean have you   had these people justify themselves to you and  if so by what means do they attempt to do that   so one person that comes to mind absolutely the  answer is yes and one person that comes to mind is   the person depicted in the film oshensky uh this  person had written uh articles self-published of   course he had a book that he actually sold  on Amazon and his understanding or his his   justification was that the puritanical Society  of this country has crushed the true uh and and   and beautiful and righteous uh sexual experience  uh which the most natural would be between a man   and a child a prepubescent child a prepubescent  child is is is the is the most beautiful form of   humanity and um and why why take that away from a  child's children would be well uh conditioned to   to to confront the challenges of life if only they  could experience orgasmic pleasure even in their   prepubescence um this is how they talk right right  and right yeah well that you saw because of that   there was attempts made in the 1970s by French  intellectuals surprise surprise to have the age of   consent reduce radically and that was always the  rationale it was an extension of the patriarchal   oppression theory in some sense right that all  sexual expression is essentially pure and good   in its most fundamental form and it's all warped  by social pressure and if we were just allowed to   express ourselves in every manner that we saw fit  that everyone would be free and we wouldn't suffer   any more from the constraints of of tyrannical  Society right and it's just convenient for the   bloody pedophiles that that happens to justify  them doing whatever they the hell they want to   children who are obviously too young to consent  right so he is a good example I forgot about that   in the book Jim let me ask you so now you didn't  have to go through the same things that Tim did   and you obviously weren't subject to the same  kind of exposure but you had to play this role   and you had to act out in your imagination  the darkness that characterized the people   who played your enemies let's say on the screen  what were the consequences for you of having to   delve even on the fictional landscape into this  entire uh what would you say underworld domain   well let's um start with your story  initially when you brought up Cain and Abel   um in my years of working with agents like  Tim and I actually worked with other agents   because Tim was very busy doing Missions at the  time and I got to go in to a lot of his world I   mean those are the guys that I play so I don't  imitate other actors I go and meet these guys   and really learn and study what they do Cain  and Abel for example able is doing good things   for God how would Cain hurt God by killing Abel  by wounding him when I go and play for example   a serial killer or a man that you mentioned  earlier Ted Bundy who my friend uh broke that   case and found out who he was Mike tando so  you're the Beast that comes in you he he he   um comes in and he um deceives you and and  starts with the ego and the whole thing   and then eventually the turn is is how that you're  eventually not fair on non-servient uh becomes   um one who how can I wound God the most by killing  the most innocent child and it wounds God in the   greatest way when you take these innocent children  who've done nothing and have no sin and these guys   um uh um have the attitude which you were  mentioning earlier all the cutting of the corners   and whatnot and ultimately they um can kill the  most innocent and effectively wounds God's heart   the most um I spent a great deal time I did this  movie uh Deja Vu and I played it uh Unabomber and   I was on the phone with um um a friend a friend  of mine who broke the case and uh on Ted Bundy   and I talked to him a lot about uh serial killers  and then um I got to look at the um with the FBI   and the ATF gave me uh through Jerry Bruckheimer  and Tony Scott I got all these videos to look at   and the the um we I was looking at unabomers  uh guys that um blow things up and um an actual   serial killers but it was written more like a Ted  Bundy um and not a a man who is writing Destiny   and all of these things that he'd exchanged his  life to take out um whoever they want to take   out and but the the but the voice was very  similar and so I don't go to Satan to play in this particular um Story I played this this  guy this um bomber and I don't go to the devil   to play the devil I think make many actors  make that mistake go to God to tell you who   the devil is that's what I do and it also gives  me a protection what's the difference what's the   difference Jim like because that also Bears  on how you protect yourself from such things   um the difference and are you saying um the  difference in the the difference is is that I   play the truth so if you go and play go to the  devil to play the devil the devil will deceive   you and put something up there that uh deceives  the public he'll always try to hide in the shadow   he'll always try because he doesn't like the light  even though he's called the light the Illuminator   um the Lucifer um and he tries to mimic God  he tries to be like God so there's always like   um if God has love and what we see is  love he creates lust he's always trying   to be like that it's like uh Kane trying  to rip off Abel cutting the corners and   um so committing to well there's a tendency even  in Milton's uh in in in Milton's Paradise Lost   there's been two readings of that forever and  one of them is that Milton's Satan is um an   anti-hero of the most profound sort really the  embodiment of evil and the other reading is that   um Milton Satan is a a disguised hero and  the Eternal what would you say the Eternal   rebel against established order and someone to  emulate in consequence and that Milton somehow   knew that and was coding that not precisely  secretly but subtly and I think that's a huge   mistake I mean I've familiarized myself with  Paradise Lost and I think that Milton was an   extraordinarily subtle writer in that he got  everything as right as anyone ever has but the   reason I'm bringing that up is because so this is  okay this is a complicated thing to untangle but   one of the things you see in Hollywood portrayals  of villains you saw this in the Silence of the   Lambs you see it frequently in Mafia portrayals  is that the villain is inadvertently or even   sometimes purposefully glorified and it's  partly because he's a rule breaker and and   has the attraction that goes along with that  but I also wonder too if it's it has something   to do with what you were describing is that  the writers and the actors find themselves   when they're trying to portray evil pulled  towards falseness in that representation as part   of the proclivity of evil to hide itself and the  danger in that is twofold and one is the danger   of deceiving the public as to the true nature of  evil because there's nothing heroic about it quite   the contrary and the second danger I wonder  about you know there's all this speculation   about Heath Ledger and the consequences that  for him of having played the Joker in such a   dark Manner and you know I don't know what to make  of that although I do think there is some danger   in having to Journey down a path of emulating  evil in order to represent it now you said that   you turned to God so to speak to protect yourself  against false representations of evil but also in   some ways to Shield yourself and it sounds to me  reminiscent of what Tim's uh superiors mentioned   to him when they said to him that his faith  might protect him from this question what was   okay go ahead man this is the best  interview I've ever had in my life I   love your line of questioning and um  getting to what what is real my job   uh is to give what I know to be absolutely certain  and real I hooked into Tim has a childlike quality   to him and I stay with that innocence and that and  don't take that innocence's weakness or uh and uh   so when I read the scripture I I feel  truth good evil and I find the good   and let that just pierce the darkness and it has  to pierce and I know what that light is and I know   that deception that when I start hearing about  for example in your life when you there's two   masters here one is from the evil Wicked side  but he comes in through your ego and the other   one is the light side that tells you might what  you might not want to hear but you ought to hear   and it's not manipulative it's truth so I I go to  that side then I pray then I go through it like   The Passion of the Christ I looked at the Shroud  of Turin and there were two men Christian Tinsley   and Keith vanderlin who are experts in makeup and  the first both of these men were agnostic and they   looked at the Shroud that Mel Gibson presented  to them and one particular way the way it is   uh through the negative however they were able to  show it you can see the track lines of Jesus you   can see the the the actual um bamboo sticks that  they used to to initially hit him and then you   see the cat of nine tails the track lines they  look like the Grand Canyon in your skin and it   shocked them now these guys look at everything  from decapitations murders and everything   prior to this I did a movie a long time ago in New  York and I was with homicide and I got to see the   contortion of a face when someone gets murdered  and it's hard to watch but when you start going   into this which is children there is something  that I can't even fathom even with the protection   of almighty God because it took me two years  to get over this two years in the a friend of   mine Debbie came into the room and at around three  o'clock in the middle of the night she I was in a   chair and she heard me just weeping now I would go  into these black holes and I have no idea I don't   remember it but this was all of the screaming  that I had to hear I didn't want to hear it but   I had to hear it and then I was able to transform  that into the movie that you just saw when I took   asked Alejandro monteverdi to move to our DP to  take it and show him my eyeball so you would see   a 20-foot eye to see what Tim goes through to rip  his heart out now it's not like uh this is what I   want to experience any more than I want to get on  a cross and have uh my heart broken I went through   hypothermia I had to have open heart surgery I was  electrocuted struck by lightning I understand the   the the necessity of what I was going to have  to go through could help bring people back to   God to wake them up and quite frankly more people  now Jordan are more afraid of the devil than they   are of God because they want a happy Jesus and  the problem is is that eventually Jordan we all   are going to die eventually that that is going  to happen but people the the power of the devil   deceives to say no no you're going to be around  for a long long time and and they never wake up   and eventually there's a judgment and then you  have to decide or God decides not how you want   to see yourself anymore but how God sees you and  how God sees you is who you really are and so   that's how I I chose to to go at this particular  case I had no choice but to go in and I hear the   screams in my heart I hear the screams because of  the agents that I got to work with got to show me   things and they one particular time he says are  you sure you want to go further but I was weeping   so hard I said this is what Tim goes through this  is what I got I got to see it in order to go into   there there to to take people to a level of will  you do something will you do something at some   point it ends for all of us and so the pain in my  heart is much better than the pain in the future   and if I have to see that to save my children to  motivate me to save my niece to tell my sister no   walking home at 13 years old from school is not a  good choice not a good choice my sister says to me   no I want my sister my daughter excuse me to have  the same kind of experience I have and I said no   not until this changes you need to understand  so and my sister is a good great mother but she   wasn't aware because the media that's supposed  to do a good job to tell the truth well they're   going into that direction which is let's kind of  twist it and change it and not talk about it or   the three letter agencies that aren't telling the  truth go ahead Jordan how has this changed you how   is how is experiencing that material and having  to play it out changed you I I I'd give my life   and a heartbeat changed me I'm less concerned  about myself than I am about hurting I I will tell   you this right now I would absolute

2023-07-05 13:53

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