The Fight Against Worldwide Child Slavery & the Sex Trade | Jim Caviezel and Tim Ballard | EP 372
this is the best interview I've ever had in my life I love your line of questioning and um getting to what what is real I hooked into Tim has a childlike quality to him and I stay with that innocence and that and don't take that innocence's weakness or uh and uh when I read the scripture I I feel truth good evil and I find the good and let that just Pierce The Darkness [Music] hello everyone watching and listening today I have the pleasure of speaking to two people someone you most likely know for his portrayal of Jesus of Nazareth in Passion of the Christ Jim Caviezel and also someone you should know if you don't already The Man Behind operation Underground Railroad Tim Ballard we discussed the new film The Sound of freedom wherein Mr cavizo plays Tim Bellard in the telling of his real life story detailing his fight against the increasingly worldwide and pervasive childhood sex trade the film The Sound of Freedom releases on July 4th so about a week and a half ago I got a text message from Tony Robbins uh suggesting that I watch a new film called the sound of freedom and I did that about four days ago with my wife Tammy and was quite struck by the movie and I decided to follow up on it it details out the efforts of one man Tim Bellard to investigate uh the a child sexual slave ring and to rescue the children that were associated with that but it also points to a broader social problem which is the spread of sexual and slave trafficking worldwide abetted by the gnat which is a great Avenue for Psychopathic criminals to pursue their darkest desires with very little risk of being caught especially on the multinational basis so I've decided to I to to reach out to Tim Bellard who is the um the man who who the movie is about and to Jim Caviezel who's the actor that plays him to talk about what all this signifies and so Tim let's start with you I mean the movie makes the case that there is a widely expanding network of slavery essentially making itself manifest worldwide concentrating in no small part on very young children who are being sold repeatedly to pedophilic Psychopaths to have at their will and of course can be sold repeatedly for that purpose and the movie makes the case that this is now an operation that's rivaling the drug trade in magnitude so you know it sounds like yet another right-wing conspiracy so please why don't you walk us through what you know and and and help me understand and everybody watching and listening exactly what you think is going on yeah thank you so much uh Jordan we're so grateful uh you take your time to do this with us so I spent 12 years as a special agent undercover operator with the Department of Homeland Security most of my time 90 of that time was spent investigating these cases child crimes child trafficking and in fact those numbers are correct uh that are being this these are Department of Labor U.N these are sources that um you know the the best we have that say that there's close to Six Million children or more who are forced into sex slavery labor slavery or organ harvesting and I can attest that I have been involved in in cases involving all three of those forms of slavery multiple times and is absolutely is a real thing um it's not even far far from home uh it's the United States is the number one consumer year after year of child rate material and oftentimes we we're close to number one in production um and it's a serious matter you know the case um the story and the sound of Freedom kicks off with the rescue of a little boy at the Port of Entry uh the southern border that's a real story a real boy um that I I was on that Port of Entry I was 10 years on the southern border so when you have 85 000 unaccompanied minors showing up in the last two years being let into the country without the sponsor being vetted DNA checked background checked um you know I called the economy of pedophilia at the United States where the demand 85 000 children thousands of them are under five years old are are LED into the country so we have we have a serious serious problem and uh it's it's not being addressed as it should be hopefully this film can do that have have what has been your experience with regard to so-called mainstream Media or Legacy media coverage how much attention has been paid to this and if not much why and if reasonably who and how well I think not not very much has been uh you know attention has been given by mainstream media oftentimes it's more innocent than cynical perhaps where it's just this is too dark I don't want to expose our audience to this horrific thing um you know we I I film we film our operations I mean I I'm going to post today another operation in in West Africa of a baby Factory I mean these are real cases where they've they've kidnapped women um as young as 13 year olds and children and they impregnate them they rape them and they make babies and they take these babies and sell them for their organs sell them for sex sell them for a Satanic ritual abuse like it's it's it does sound crazy that's why I film it our operations we film our operations so that we can show the world this is very real it's really happening um and I think if there's two million children forced into commercial sex which is this the most uh kind of credible statistic that we can find a lot of people are involved so there is a more cynical answer to your question which may be there's people that don't want this exposed the because they're involved in it so I'm going to harass you a bit here um from the Wikipedia page um there is some not that I'm particular particular fan of Wikipedia Pages uh depending on the circumstances but there are some criticisms of what you're doing and I thought we might as well um address them right off the bat bat because people who are watching are going to be look man if I was coming across this for the first time and in some ways I am I've got two choices in front of me don't I I can either presume that you've discovered something that's ongoing and of tremendous significance that's terribly dark or I can assume that the difficult work that you had done for a decade um genuinely addressing these problems has made you hypersensitive to a threat and willing to magnify it and it would be easier just to ignore you as a consequence now that would be the preferable um outcome to such an investigation wouldn't it so you can as as you said you can understand why people might want to avert their eyes from such a thing so I'm going to walk through these criticisms and maybe you could you know you can respond to them and we can get that out of the way before we go deeper into the film and and your your uh in your your uh your operations so so your group and this is Operation Underground Railroad and tell me if I get anything wrong here says it devours conspiracy theories though founder Tom Bellard was criticized for refusing to condemn the Q Anon conspiracy theory um I have no idea what the hell that means do you know what that's referring to yeah absolutely we um that's that's a lie in Wikipedia we have absolutely an rfaqs for years have have condemned the majority of of what we see um with conspiracy theories uh so I they like to attribute me to the Q Anon movement um there may be some truths in there but there's so many falsehoods on top of that so our FAQs refute that immediately um because it can it discredits the movement in fact I would go so far as to consider that maybe certain people who don't want this known are responsible for some of the conspiracy theories in order to discredit the movement um and uh they go too far they go too far in in their assessment of things but yeah we absolutely have just disavowed uh what's generally coming out of of Q Anon yeah well it says you know it's very vague on Wikipedia it says to condemn the Q Anon conspiracy theory well I know perfectly well that there are more than one conspiracy theories let's say on Q and on so I'm not even exactly sure what it's referring to what is there a particular conspiracy theory that um you were criticized for refusing to condemn do you have any more specific details about that I mean I I'm not sure what exactly they're talking about Pro they might be uh referring to the fact that there's something called adrenal Chrome where they take they're taking children's blood and devouring it and so forth uh and I've explained my experience with that and and I just did in West Africa and other places we've seen this in in several parts of the continent of Africa and it's very real it's very real This Witch doctory they take these children we they they take their organs they take their blood they they they drink it they take the genitalia of children and and hang it over the rooftop of their businesses thinking that the the dark Gods will bless them these are real things um and so I might say something like that and then they connect it to something uh that a q Anon person says about you know a celebrity who must be doing this too but there's no evidence to back that and they make they make a false connection there um and and so that's that's the only example I can think of okay got it well the next thing it says is that the the operation underground Railway fall mostly claimed that it had entered a partnership with American Airlines that was in 2022 so what do you what do you what do you have to say about that oh there's a great one so a PR firm uh who represented um us made a deal with American Airlines uh came to us and said shoot the video they're going to put this video on your uh we're gonna put there for this video on the airlines they shot the video of me I just get a call from our PR Company to put me in a studio I give a video that I think I'm talking to the passengers for one month uh on American Airlines apparently the deal fell through the PR Company didn't tell us that and our our marketing company our marketing team put out hey we're going to be on American Airlines the PR Company apologized we had we fired them they said we can't believe we didn't get the message to you and that was it and of course there's people that want so badly for us to be wrong or us to not do what we say we do so they exploited that I think that was a vice magazine very incredibly dishonest uh Journal uh I can't call him journalist us the vice magazine did they've done a series of hit pieces on this and I I encourage people I encourage people to read it readvice readvice because everything they say is so ridiculous and so dishonest right right yes well and I I do believe if I remember correctly the advice is also declared bankruptcy in the last few weeks and I can't imagine an organization more richly deserving there was a 2021 follow-up article from Vice but I don't think we're going to I'll just read part of it because it's so ridiculous conflating consensual sex work with sex trafficking yeah well that's exactly the kind of Weasley um what would you call it criticism that I'd expect from people who were trying to justify the sorts of behaviors that you are attempting to expose um then there's a 2021 article in slate criticizing a 2014 raid conducted by operation underground Railway in the Dominican Republic saying that it was likely to have traumatized the traffic children um Ann Gallagher an authority on human trafficking wrote in 2015 that our had an alarming lack of understanding about how sophisticated criminal trafficking networks must be approached and dismantled and called the work of our arrogant unethical and illegal so and have a way of that oh thank you I'm grateful for this opportunity so someone like Ann Gallagher who lives 3000 miles away from any operation we've ever done is not qualified to talk about what our operations she can't give any uh details she can't give any examples um the Slate article is a fun one to address I've addressed it several times um we um early on we brought a blogger down to do to to watch our operations we we invite people down but if Tony Robbins has been down um we invite politicians the Attorney General of Utah's coming our operations um if we're hiding something that's the last thing we would of course do so we bring this journalist this blogger I won't call her a journalist um and we thought she was a friend and she came and watched a legit legitimate operation happened in in Dominican Republic there were seven traffickers who showed up seven traffickers arrested there were um 20 plus uh people rescued nine of them were children you can't you can't sometimes you can't always uh control who shows up to the sting party the traffickers bring who they will but nine children uh showed up they were all liberated from the the the the the um you know the control of their captors um this blogger then wrote two glowing stories about it that she witnessed this she had very minimal exposure to the operation itself she she witnessed it some seven years later she decides to use it in my opinion to somehow increase her social media following as our foundation grew and she writes a story it's in slate now here's here's the key thing um nine children rescued and nine children had three years of Aftercare services in this operation provided by International Justice mission one of the top authorities in Aftercare and and fighting human trafficking um seven traffickers were not only arrested but all seven were convicted so she chose the wrong case to criticize now tellingly if if anyone's gonna write a story about that operation good bad or otherwise and they leave out the part that says seven traffickers were arrested and seven traffickers were convicted and nine children were liberated and had three years of Aftercare to heal them if you leave that part out either you are extremely incompetent as a researcher and writer or you're a liar either way the story has zero credibility on that fact alone that you because she doesn't even report on those two on those two essential elements all right well we've hypothetically dispensed with Vice which of course is a yeah well it's pretty funny that that's what they named their organization as far as I'm concerned and we'll leave the Slate issue aside Jim let me ask you a couple of questions if you don't mind do you want to first of all tell people um about your involvement with Angel Studios a little bit about your career and why this particular movie sound of Freedom it's it it's opening what in early July is it July when does it come out it comes out uh July 4th week so next week next week it's it's it's out in theaters uh Nationwide so so let me turn to Jim Jim can you hear me yes yes all right so yeah do you want to detail out your your association with Angel Studios tell everybody first who Angel studios are what they've done and I've watched a lot of the chosen by the way which I thought was extremely high quality um do you tell us about the studio tell us about your involvement with them about your career and then about your attraction to this particular movie well let's start with the movie first um I have three uh adopted children from China I became aware of the dangers that go on um with children around the world and through that process um then I became aware of Tim Ballard and coincidentally then my friend Eduardo verastigi brought me this script because many of the actors that they had offered it to didn't want to get involved in this particular project I read the script I love the movie Taken and I thought this is like taken but with a much bigger heart then Tim Ballard came to the meeting he had seen two films that I did one was called The Count of Monte Cristo and then the other one was The Passion of the Christ and he felt that I'd be the right guy to play him Angel Studios I had nothing no connection to them until a few months ago when they wanted to do this movie and they wanted their idea was to sell 2 million tickets for these two million trafficked children so why why is it that a number of actors why in your estimation did a number of actors turn down the opportunity to play the role what and and and why and why did you decide to forego that risk and to and to climb aboard I foregoed the risk because when you have uh three children that you loved when you'd give your life for it kind of connects into Tim Ballard and Tim did this for this little girl and the children that he saves it's something uh is a greater purpose that even your career uh you know like I I went through this with Mel Gibson when we did the passion that my career was the last thing I thought of what I thought about was the God I love and I put this in how I look at it is is that this God that I love it he loves me and he deserved to be loved back and so I I would be nothing without him he gave me my purpose and this life so um the the Tim Ballard I was very fortunate that he had seen those um films and um when I looked at and I think Tim made this comparison Schindler's List was a very uh powerful weapon but it came 50 years too late this film is now this is exposing it now during that time and I believe that is probably why it's easier to get an OCTA to do a movie 50 years later there's no controversy it's over but the the individuals imagine if Rwanda if that story had been made that movie had been made during that time or that they could see it you know it you you have to look at these situations and understand that um good people sit back and do nothing and allow this evil to occur there's got to be people that stand up in the time that it occurs and that's what drew me to the whole story in the first place and do you do you how how do you feel about the movie now you've seen the movie in its entirety it's about to be released uh it's a fully fledged high quality production I was particularly impressed by the cinematography um it it's also extraordinarily well edited the acting um I don't want to flatter you but the acting is extremely high quality it's very realistic movie um how how do you how how do you feel about your involvement now that everything is done and and how do you feel about the what would you say the production capacity of Angel Studios which is a relatively you know it's a relatively new a relative newcomer on the on the mass entertainment block when I was sitting next in Tim Ballard and he leaned over and he started to weep uh heavily I knew I did my job so do you want to run us briefly through I don't want to give away the entire plot because that would obviously be pointless but do you want to just run this briefly through Jim the the the the plot of the movie and then I'll turn to Tim and fill in some of the background details of his life and so I play Tim Ballard he's a Homeland Security he sets up these um uh sting operations to take down these very very bad men uh to save traffic children and one particular case one of the traffickers that he takes down earned slipachinski uh who's he he rescues this boy and the little boy turns to him and says will you save my sister and Tim goes back gets the direction from above and from his wife and goes back and he sells everything to find this little girl so what I liked about the script so I've noticed that one of the most effective ways of communicating complex ideas effectively is to particularize the problem and so what happens in this movie is that the broad problem of sexual of of slavery and human trafficking and the somewhat narrower problem of sexual trafficking of children is zeroed uh is is what focused on a particular case and so that gives the movie a very powerful narrative underpinning right because when our problem is particularized and you can see how it affects actual specific people's lives it becomes much more realistic and much more palpable and I thought the movie did a good job of that uh Tim do you want to walk everybody listening through let's go back into the details of your life now you worked for this you you worked we worked for the Special Forces per se and who who are you working for before you decided to forego your career and to pursue this the case that we're describing so I worked for 12 years as a special agent and undercover undercover operator for the Department of Homeland Security the investigative division called Homeland Security investigations 10 of those years were spent on the border uh tracking child traffickers people who would exploit children with child exploitation material so I really learned a lot in 2006 the laws changed in the United States and for the first time U.S agents were permitted and encouraged to go overseas and find children who Americans were abusing and we could now hold those Americans accountable as if they had committed that crime on U.S soil that's that's what really changed my life because I started I speak Spanish fluently and they sent me overseas South of the Border that's when my eyes opened up and I started seeing the children that I used to only see mostly on the on the pornography on the child expectation material cases um but it was tormenting me uh the US government unwittingly was because if I couldn't find that connection back to the United States States the American kid or the American pedophile I had to come home but the problem is I've already been exposed to the children I've already been exposed to the problem and oftentimes have made myself debate and in 2012 I had enough on this case I kind of went more I went further than otherwise I probably should have the movie didn't have time to tell you that there was another case in Haiti at the same time that I was working uh thinking there was a U.S Nexus and
I was told in both instances to come home and you couldn't work these cases and that's when I had a very consequential conversation with my wife and I said if I stay here if I do this operation with or without my badge it doesn't matter at this point I I'm I can do the work we will save kids um and um but I I have to lose my job and we have six children and this is this is a moral dilemma like I've never faced in my life and I was hoping my wife would have responded with get your ass home you can't you can't abandon us you know first of all you're gonna die without the top cover of the US government if you continue this and who's going to pay the bills and feed the feed the kids she didn't say that she said to me you have to quit your job it was that easy for her um it became spiritual for her even she felt a calling and a responsibility that she might have to reckon with one day when she meets her maker and I knew that she felt that way when she told me this in the crucial moment of decision about two days before I ended up turning my badge and gun over and and went private she said to me I will not let you jeopardize my salvation by not doing this and when she said those words and I knew she meant those words that changed everything for me and we jumped into really just an irrational Act of service I might call it because it wasn't rational in many in many ways but ultimately it ended in the operation UC depicted in the film which shows 54 children uh some uh some adult young young adult women were in that group as well rescued on that island but what the movie doesn't uh have the time to report is that in actuality was 120 um there was two other locations being taken down at the same time and there's a documentary that's going to follow uh in in the wake of sound of Freedom called triple take Angel Studios will put it out uh documenting the entire story and so in the end it was successful and we were able to build upon that success and I founded operation Underground Railroad I run another Foundation that was founded by Glenn Beck called the Nazarene fund and we're doing these kind of operations all over the world today so how let's go back in time to before you worked as a security agent for the homelands homeless or an agent for the homeland security investigations unit how did you how were you trained to do that like what was your background before you became employed as an agent and what was it about you that made you capable of engaging in this sort of operation so I I I got a graduate degree in um International politics and I always wanted to be in federal law enforcement my first job was CIA I was there doing 911 um working in the operations center in the wake of 9 11. I found out that I studied terrorism and weapons of mass destruction uh that was the the actually the degree I got at the Monterey Institute of international studies um and so um it was an easy recruit into the CIA because you know 911 had just happened when I found out that one of the terrorists Muhammad attah had staged his attack from Mexicali Mexico across the border and I speak Spanish I wanted to go fight terrorism on the southern border so I ended up jumping on the ship from CIA and I joined the newly created Homeland Security Department and it became a special agent for six months I was tracking those kind of movements uh you know not not human trafficking or child exploitation but money guns terrorism six months into that Endeavor I was called into the office of a supervisor and they asked me if I would please forgo everything that I wanted to do with my career and help them start a child crimes unit I do not know why they asked me uh one thing he did say to me was you're a young agent but you're a person of faith and we know that about you and that's that's a requirement or you're you're your soul will be crushed the Bible is a root of wisdom inspiration and spiritual nourishment the Halo app empowers you to explore the Bible's profound teachings and to effortlessly incorporate them into your daily life a great place to start while you deepen your understanding of the Bible is to check out father Mike schmitz's Bible in a year available on the hollow app exclusively for brief daily readings and Reflections here you can dive into an extensive library of Bible reading plans accompanied by insightful Reflections and audio guided meditations whether you're a seasoned Bible reader or just starting your journey hallow provides a platform for you to engage with scripture like never before studying the Bible's literary Brilliance has influenced countless writers poets and artists throughout history by studying the Bible yourself you'll gain a deeper appreciation for the power of Storytelling symbolism and metaphor enriching your understanding of literature across different genres the Hallow app also helps you connect with a community of like-minded individuals sharing experiences insights and encouragement along the path to spiritual growth download the app for free at hallow.com Jordan you can set reminders and track your progress along the way enrich your education and nurture your mind and soul today download the Hallow app at hallow.com Jordan that's hallow.com Jordan for an exclusive free month free trial of all six thousand plus prayers and meditations I would like you if you would to tell us to the degree that you can what you were typically dealing with when you started when you started working for the child sex crimes unit let us know what you saw let us know what you what that did to you because that sort of thing that changes people's conceptions of humanity per se let's say the nature of the cosmos and what it means to be human right I mean when you're when you're in contact with people who are capable of that level of Darkness you start to understand something about the nature of the human soul that you can't understand any other way and that can be a I mean that's the sort of thing that gives people post traumatic stress disorder when they're soldiers so and and now you said also your supervisors had an inkling that you might be protected against that at least to some degree because of your faith so let's walk through what you learned and encountered first what what did you see when you were working as part of this child sex crimes unit what I saw was so shocking Jordan uh I thought child sex crimes would be 15 year olds 16 year olds uh my brain couldn't comprehend something more evil than abusing that age the very first case I worked in 2002 I believe I was given a bunch of VHS videos some hard drives to look at that had been seized in a warrant the very first image I saw um were um there were three uh three little boys ah that were probably seven five and three and they looked uh like they looked like my children they had you know they had blonde blonde eye blonde hair blue eyes and they were being just raped raped these three little boys by this pedophile and I was so shocked I fell to my knees I dry heaved thinking I was going to throw up into the waste basket I jumped into my car I drove to my children's School my three oldest kids I checked them out I still remember in my mind I can still see dentist dentist appointment I wrote and I grabbed them I took them home and just sobbed on the floor my wife came in and I just I wouldn't let the kids go just holding them shaking um that was my very first experience uh you talked about PTSD I absolutely deal with PTSD to this day um I I took too long to actually deal with it uh that's another story um and I thought I can't I can't do this I can't do this um I started getting help immediately uh because I didn't want to quit and uh that that's that's what this is that's what this is and those kind of videos have increased over the last couple years by five thousand percent yeah well in in Canada um we just had a report from an organization called the Western Standard that one million child sexual exploitation photos and videos have been identified in an Alberta child porn investigation one million photos eight arrests made okay so that's some indication of the widespread nature of the problem now you said that when you first encountered this material it made you physically ill and also terrified for the safety of your children but then also it necessitated you seeking um health I suppose or Aid I mean I've worked with people who've had post-traumatic stress disorder generally what happens is that tragedy is not enough to give someone post-traumatic stress disorder even if it's rather severe it has to be a combination of tragedy and malevolence and the real trauma comes as a consequence of contact with evil with malevolence and what people generally have to do in order to recover from that is to develop a rather profound philosophy of evil and you know a religious faith in in its most fundamental Essence is a philosophy of Good and Evil it it does detail out the Heart of Darkness among human beings point out to people this is particularly although you not not uniquely true of the Christian tradition but particularly true that that capacity for evil lurks in the heart of everyone and that are fundamental moral obligation as we Soldier and here on Earth is to overcome that proclivity within and also to stand up against it in the external world and so you said you received some Aid after you had been exposed to this first set of videos um what what is it about the way you looked at the world that had to change in order for you to adapt to what you were encountering well I had to come to grips with the the an idea that I had never been confronted with before that there are people and not a few but millions of people only millions of of pedophiles could justify a demand of millions of child exploitation uh material videos and so forth uh the first person you see arrested in the movie is a real person named ursulchinski in sound of Freedom he had over 2 million pieces of child rape material in his house so um to to be confronted with the reality that there are people on this planet and like like I said not a few but but Millions who want to indulge in watching five-year-old children be raped and sexually assaulted in ways that and I'm sorry to be so raw but I feel comfortable with you Dr Peterson but uh to to to watch children's bodies actually break in the act of sexual assault acts that your mind couldn't conjure up if you tried to conjure it up and that it's real that is so shocking to the system um it changes your life forever I I tell people if I feel like I've had a million holes burned into my brain because I've watched thousands of hours of that kind of material not only not only watch it and I love the scene that Jim depicts where he's it's that's very real I I break I can't watch I can't watch the movie but the movie's very good the movie doesn't show any of this by the way it doesn't show anything like this I don't want people to run away and be scared but you see the scene where the the camera flashes um a close-up into Jim's eyes and that's that was me for for 10 years not only watching but writing writing it in details for the court to see for the prosecutors to see and and raising children at the same time that are the very same age and fortunately or unfortunately for me I have now I have nine children that at the time I I left the government at six and so I can always identify the age of a child with one of my own children and my mind was almost automatically doing is I would superimpose my own children's faces and persons onto these children and that's that led to um that led to the PTSD I'll be honest um and almost a paranoia about what would happen to my children and watching my children and I've come a long ways and and I'm I'm able to deal with it but I I I I was determined never to quit and so I just sought more help and I I won't quit so okay so Tim I'm I'm gonna walk you through what I know about how people turn into the sort of pedophile that you find so you and everyone else I suppose or virtually everyone else finds so mysterious so I'm going to refer first to the story of Cain and Abel because it actually puts its finger on the process in a stunning manner so what happens in that story is that two different Pathways to adaptation are detailed out and they become the Cardinal Pathways of adaptation that characterize the whole human race immersed as it is from that point onward in history instead of in the Garden of Eden and one is the pathway of Cain and the other is the pathway of Abel now Abel makes high quality sacrifices he's all in right he puts himself on the line and he does the real thing and as a consequence God finds God uh finds he finds favor with God and His sacrifices are rewarded he does well and everyone loves him and he thrives and Cain his sacrifices are not of the same quality he tries to cut the corners and to and to pull the wool over his eyes and and God's eyes and everyone else's eyes and as a consequence his sacrifices are rejected and instead of clueing the hell in and waking up and taking responsibility for his failure he decides that he's going to call out God for creating a cosmos that's cosmically unfair and unjust and the evidence for that is Kane's failure and Abel's success and so he has a little chat with God and he basically calls him out and says you know I'm breaking myself in half here and nothing's going my way and Abel gets everything he wants and you know how dare you make a cosmos so radically unjust and improper and why don't you just straighten yourself out and God says if you did well you would be rewarded for it and you should look to yourself and then he says something even worse and this is very subtle because um it's complicated to understand it unless you look at multiple translations or potentially the original Hebrew which I can't read but I read the multiple translations God says to Cain the spirit of sin crouches at your doorstep like a sexually aroused predatory animal and you have invited it in to have its way with you and so now if you study the development of the fantasies of very very dark people you see that they brewed and fantasize in isolation for years and the fantasies get darker and darker and darker so they're bitter and resentful to begin with and then they start fantasizing about well what they would want that can take a sexual end or it can take a very violent and or it can take both and what they're really after is the ultimate in Revenge and on the sexual front they find a kick in extending the what would you call it unacceptability of the fantasy one stage at a time um the the famous and extremely attractive sexual serial killer what was his name he's a famous photograph of him like this very attractive man do you remember his dad Bundy Ted Bundy Ted Bundy detailed out exactly how his fantasies progressed as he became more and more involved with pornography and what happens in some sense is that these people who are nursing these terrible fantasies want to stay on the edge of novelty and so their fantasies get darker and darker and darker as they progress down that road and so after a thousand such micro progressions they end up in exactly the sort of pit that you're describing and some of that is pure sexual kick because of the novelty and but it's got this sadistic and perverse uh vengeful twist and you could think about it this way you know I think it says in the gospels that you know it would be better that that a most Millstone was hung around your neck and that you were cast into the abyss than to do harm to any of God God's children let's say and the that's actually where the perverse Delight comes because the most egregious possible sin let's say is the violent sexual abuse of the most innocent possible person and the perverse novelty kick is highest at exactly that point and then that just goes from bad to worse and there's a thousand or even ten thousand micro decisions that go along with that there's also a great book called Ordinary men this is well worth reading although it's a bloody catastrophe to read I'll tell you it details out how a group of German policemen who were moved to Poland during World War II were transformed from ordinary middle class working class or sorry ordinary working class men um old enough to not have been raised under the Nazi regime by the way and so not propagandized into a kind of mindless obedience how they went from being perfectly ordinary policemen to the sort of people who could take naked pregnant women out into the middle of the field and shoot them in the back of the head and it isn't like they had an easy time with that some of them reported the same sort of thing that you reported when you first watched that video they would they what they were being called upon to do stage by stage made them physically ill and they had a commander who actually had told them that they could leave the service if they didn't want to continue with their duties but they felt Duty bound not to lead leave their comrades having to mop up the terrible situation but it does a lovely job of detailing out how your movement from normality to Absolute perversity is a consequence of ten thousand micro um what would you say micro violations of your own conscience not all of the micro obviously so you know you need to know about the vengefulness you need to know about the kick of sadism that's that novelty kick that produces a dopaminergic kick that heightens sexual satisfaction and so there's an there's an element of sadistic misery that can add novelty to sex that's particularly attractive to people who are bitter and resentful because they actually can't find any willing sexual partners and so they're angry at the world and shake their fist to God because of it and so anyways that's a bit of the developmental course of such of such a lovely descent into hell and and the interesting thing about it is that people Brew Day like you don't get to the point where you're watching pornographic videos of children being raped without hundreds or even thousands of hours of increasingly demented voluntary fantasy and that's that allowing the spirit of sin that would otherwise crouch on your doorstep to enter your house and have its way with you right it's like a collaborative Venture with Satan himself that's the most straightforward way of describing it and so well so that's I don't know what you have to say about that but I'll let you have at her I'll say this that everything you're saying absolutely he resonates with my anecdotal experiences dealing with these people I look into their eyes and what you're describing is what I see though I've never been able to articulate it like you just have so I appreciate being armed with with um with an understanding that it will help me uh evangelize more clearly to others about the dangers of of over stimulation and overview support of pornography and and shaking hands with the devil so thank you for that that was very insightful so I I spent a bit of time um not a lot but a bit of time inside a maxim security prison when I was a kid I worked with a very strange psychologist that was there and one of the things that really shocked me and I I think this shocked me enough to change my whole life was I I met these I met this one prisoner who was a pretty non-descript looking character he took me for a walk out in the yard away from a gym full of like weight lifting Ax Murderer monsters and rapists and we went for a walk out in the yard and the psychologist called us back and told me later in the office that this guy who's about five two pretty non-pre-possessing guy had uh made two policemen Neil in front of him begged for their lives in reference to their families and then shot them both in the back of the head and and kicked them aside and the shocking thing to me was you know you kind of think that if you met pure evil it would it would have a monstrous form and you know the thing that shocked me about that was the non-descript nature of this guy you know his his absolutely banal ordinariness the fact that you could just walk past him on the street you'd never know he wasn't some monster you know the Monstrous character of Satan in your imagination is you know a figure that's terrifying to behold instead of someone normal you know what I mean normally in that cringing sense these people that you've interacted with like what's your what's your reaction to them when you talk to them the pedophiles when you talk to them and when you arrest them my experience is very similar to what you just described very nondescript people of all walks of life we've we've we've arrested and I've interrogated um Educators uh lawyers law enforcement clergyman um and and uh sitting across from them there's but with no apparent physicality that would tell you who they are but I will say this when they start talking and I look into their eyes that's when I can I sense something that that really scares the hell out of me um and the way they talk about children when they get there and it's it's something that they've been able to normalize and they're speaking to me about children almost like they're talking about you know the weather or you know talking about buying and selling children like you talk about buying and selling computer parts or an automobile or something and that's where I thought you something has taken over you something non-human has made you less human um and I've never been able to figure it out uh only that it creeps me out and and um and I usually end up getting them to confess because they have brought themselves to a place where they think they're okay they think that it's somehow normal I don't know if that makes sense how do they do Dr Peterson well well the the degree of rationalization that has to with each with each step forward in the progress of the fantasy there has to be a step forward in the self-deception with regards to self-description right so imagine that you're you're attempting to cling to a sense of yourself at least as normal but even maybe as a moral agent I mean the the more forthright pedophiles claim that they're only allowing children to express their true sexual desires and that what they're actually doing is forming the best relationship with the children that they've ever had now of course there's part of them that knows that that's an absolutely bloody screaming hellish lie but you get to that lie like I said with a thousand micro lies right and you're modifying your self-conception along the way I mean have you had these people justify themselves to you and if so by what means do they attempt to do that so one person that comes to mind absolutely the answer is yes and one person that comes to mind is the person depicted in the film oshensky uh this person had written uh articles self-published of course he had a book that he actually sold on Amazon and his understanding or his his justification was that the puritanical Society of this country has crushed the true uh and and and beautiful and righteous uh sexual experience uh which the most natural would be between a man and a child a prepubescent child a prepubescent child is is is the is the most beautiful form of humanity and um and why why take that away from a child's children would be well uh conditioned to to to confront the challenges of life if only they could experience orgasmic pleasure even in their prepubescence um this is how they talk right right and right yeah well that you saw because of that there was attempts made in the 1970s by French intellectuals surprise surprise to have the age of consent reduce radically and that was always the rationale it was an extension of the patriarchal oppression theory in some sense right that all sexual expression is essentially pure and good in its most fundamental form and it's all warped by social pressure and if we were just allowed to express ourselves in every manner that we saw fit that everyone would be free and we wouldn't suffer any more from the constraints of of tyrannical Society right and it's just convenient for the bloody pedophiles that that happens to justify them doing whatever they the hell they want to children who are obviously too young to consent right so he is a good example I forgot about that in the book Jim let me ask you so now you didn't have to go through the same things that Tim did and you obviously weren't subject to the same kind of exposure but you had to play this role and you had to act out in your imagination the darkness that characterized the people who played your enemies let's say on the screen what were the consequences for you of having to delve even on the fictional landscape into this entire uh what would you say underworld domain well let's um start with your story initially when you brought up Cain and Abel um in my years of working with agents like Tim and I actually worked with other agents because Tim was very busy doing Missions at the time and I got to go in to a lot of his world I mean those are the guys that I play so I don't imitate other actors I go and meet these guys and really learn and study what they do Cain and Abel for example able is doing good things for God how would Cain hurt God by killing Abel by wounding him when I go and play for example a serial killer or a man that you mentioned earlier Ted Bundy who my friend uh broke that case and found out who he was Mike tando so you're the Beast that comes in you he he he um comes in and he um deceives you and and starts with the ego and the whole thing and then eventually the turn is is how that you're eventually not fair on non-servient uh becomes um one who how can I wound God the most by killing the most innocent child and it wounds God in the greatest way when you take these innocent children who've done nothing and have no sin and these guys um uh um have the attitude which you were mentioning earlier all the cutting of the corners and whatnot and ultimately they um can kill the most innocent and effectively wounds God's heart the most um I spent a great deal time I did this movie uh Deja Vu and I played it uh Unabomber and I was on the phone with um um a friend a friend of mine who broke the case and uh on Ted Bundy and I talked to him a lot about uh serial killers and then um I got to look at the um with the FBI and the ATF gave me uh through Jerry Bruckheimer and Tony Scott I got all these videos to look at and the the um we I was looking at unabomers uh guys that um blow things up and um an actual serial killers but it was written more like a Ted Bundy um and not a a man who is writing Destiny and all of these things that he'd exchanged his life to take out um whoever they want to take out and but the the but the voice was very similar and so I don't go to Satan to play in this particular um Story I played this this guy this um bomber and I don't go to the devil to play the devil I think make many actors make that mistake go to God to tell you who the devil is that's what I do and it also gives me a protection what's the difference what's the difference Jim like because that also Bears on how you protect yourself from such things um the difference and are you saying um the difference in the the difference is is that I play the truth so if you go and play go to the devil to play the devil the devil will deceive you and put something up there that uh deceives the public he'll always try to hide in the shadow he'll always try because he doesn't like the light even though he's called the light the Illuminator um the Lucifer um and he tries to mimic God he tries to be like God so there's always like um if God has love and what we see is love he creates lust he's always trying to be like that it's like uh Kane trying to rip off Abel cutting the corners and um so committing to well there's a tendency even in Milton's uh in in in Milton's Paradise Lost there's been two readings of that forever and one of them is that Milton's Satan is um an anti-hero of the most profound sort really the embodiment of evil and the other reading is that um Milton Satan is a a disguised hero and the Eternal what would you say the Eternal rebel against established order and someone to emulate in consequence and that Milton somehow knew that and was coding that not precisely secretly but subtly and I think that's a huge mistake I mean I've familiarized myself with Paradise Lost and I think that Milton was an extraordinarily subtle writer in that he got everything as right as anyone ever has but the reason I'm bringing that up is because so this is okay this is a complicated thing to untangle but one of the things you see in Hollywood portrayals of villains you saw this in the Silence of the Lambs you see it frequently in Mafia portrayals is that the villain is inadvertently or even sometimes purposefully glorified and it's partly because he's a rule breaker and and has the attraction that goes along with that but I also wonder too if it's it has something to do with what you were describing is that the writers and the actors find themselves when they're trying to portray evil pulled towards falseness in that representation as part of the proclivity of evil to hide itself and the danger in that is twofold and one is the danger of deceiving the public as to the true nature of evil because there's nothing heroic about it quite the contrary and the second danger I wonder about you know there's all this speculation about Heath Ledger and the consequences that for him of having played the Joker in such a dark Manner and you know I don't know what to make of that although I do think there is some danger in having to Journey down a path of emulating evil in order to represent it now you said that you turned to God so to speak to protect yourself against false representations of evil but also in some ways to Shield yourself and it sounds to me reminiscent of what Tim's uh superiors mentioned to him when they said to him that his faith might protect him from this question what was okay go ahead man this is the best interview I've ever had in my life I love your line of questioning and um getting to what what is real my job uh is to give what I know to be absolutely certain and real I hooked into Tim has a childlike quality to him and I stay with that innocence and that and don't take that innocence's weakness or uh and uh so when I read the scripture I I feel truth good evil and I find the good and let that just pierce the darkness and it has to pierce and I know what that light is and I know that deception that when I start hearing about for example in your life when you there's two masters here one is from the evil Wicked side but he comes in through your ego and the other one is the light side that tells you might what you might not want to hear but you ought to hear and it's not manipulative it's truth so I I go to that side then I pray then I go through it like The Passion of the Christ I looked at the Shroud of Turin and there were two men Christian Tinsley and Keith vanderlin who are experts in makeup and the first both of these men were agnostic and they looked at the Shroud that Mel Gibson presented to them and one particular way the way it is uh through the negative however they were able to show it you can see the track lines of Jesus you can see the the the actual um bamboo sticks that they used to to initially hit him and then you see the cat of nine tails the track lines they look like the Grand Canyon in your skin and it shocked them now these guys look at everything from decapitations murders and everything prior to this I did a movie a long time ago in New York and I was with homicide and I got to see the contortion of a face when someone gets murdered and it's hard to watch but when you start going into this which is children there is something that I can't even fathom even with the protection of almighty God because it took me two years to get over this two years in the a friend of mine Debbie came into the room and at around three o'clock in the middle of the night she I was in a chair and she heard me just weeping now I would go into these black holes and I have no idea I don't remember it but this was all of the screaming that I had to hear I didn't want to hear it but I had to hear it and then I was able to transform that into the movie that you just saw when I took asked Alejandro monteverdi to move to our DP to take it and show him my eyeball so you would see a 20-foot eye to see what Tim goes through to rip his heart out now it's not like uh this is what I want to experience any more than I want to get on a cross and have uh my heart broken I went through hypothermia I had to have open heart surgery I was electrocuted struck by lightning I understand the the the necessity of what I was going to have to go through could help bring people back to God to wake them up and quite frankly more people now Jordan are more afraid of the devil than they are of God because they want a happy Jesus and the problem is is that eventually Jordan we all are going to die eventually that that is going to happen but people the the power of the devil deceives to say no no you're going to be around for a long long time and and they never wake up and eventually there's a judgment and then you have to decide or God decides not how you want to see yourself anymore but how God sees you and how God sees you is who you really are and so that's how I I chose to to go at this particular case I had no choice but to go in and I hear the screams in my heart I hear the screams because of the agents that I got to work with got to show me things and they one particular time he says are you sure you want to go further but I was weeping so hard I said this is what Tim goes through this is what I got I got to see it in order to go into there there to to take people to a level of will you do something will you do something at some point it ends for all of us and so the pain in my heart is much better than the pain in the future and if I have to see that to save my children to motivate me to save my niece to tell my sister no walking home at 13 years old from school is not a good choice not a good choice my sister says to me no I want my sister my daughter excuse me to have the same kind of experience I have and I said no not until this changes you need to understand so and my sister is a good great mother but she wasn't aware because the media that's supposed to do a good job to tell the truth well they're going into that direction which is let's kind of twist it and change it and not talk about it or the three letter agencies that aren't telling the truth go ahead Jordan how has this changed you how is how is experiencing that material and having to play it out changed you I I I'd give my life and a heartbeat changed me I'm less concerned about myself than I am about hurting I I will tell you this right now I would absolute
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