S3 Ep2 | Digging for The Upside Down: technology and nature (Guests: Jack Reed and Emily Wormald)
um my dad's on Safari in Africa and he sends a photograph through and Harry my son said I said look at the trees they look really African don't they went yeah they're acacia trees and I said brilliant you know we have them on Minecraft [Music] you're wasting [Music] ramblings from Beyond the classroom with Marie and Jody so this week we're discussing outdoor education and specifically how this can be enhanced by mobile phones which is not something you might think of as a naturally symbiotic relationship no we're joined by Jack Reed a PhD candidate at the University of Edinburgh his research explores mobile technologies and social media in residential outdoor education at the Outward Bound Trust Jack is interested in young people's experiences of education and how these experiences are filtered through online connected spaces and how these networked environments inform contemporary youth cultures so here with Jack we also have Emily wormald Emily works for the Outward Bound trust she started out as an instructor taking young people out of the Comfort zones and challenging them to go beyond in the mountains and the lakes of the Lake District she continues that work as the trust's northern education account manager working alongside schools colleges and youth groups helping them to organize their residentials welcome Jack and Emily hello yeah I was fantastic it's nice to see you too yes absolutely pleasure to have you um Emily can you tell us a bit about our Outward Bound yeah so out of bounds and educational charity working with young people to offer adventure and learning in the wild we were founded in 1941 so kind of in the second world war um focusing on training up young seamen and the skills that they need to needed to survive kind of harsh conditions at Sea teaching them comfort food and tenacity and perseverance um obviously we've come a long way since 1941 but the principles still remain yeah so we give young people the opportunities to develop skills that will set them up for success in their lives and Inspire them to believe that they're capable of more than they think that they ever thought possible and it's all founded on Kurt Hahn's principle of principles getting young people to believe they're capable of more than they think so we have six centers around the UK um in the highlands of Scotland Lake District and snowdonia and our courses center learning through Adventure taking young people's into the mountains onto the water and developing things like confidence resilience self-belief and it sets them up with the skills to that they need to tackle the real world um head-on believing in themselves um Jack how did your research with Outward Bound come about yeah so it came about quite a long time ago now or at least it feels that way I first came across the PHD in 2019 it was an advertised PhD so it's a collaborative PhD between the Atwood band trust and between the University of Edinburgh so from the very outset the topic has been set really and that topic was always to explore how young people's experiences of Outward Bound in these modern times are influenced by mobile technologies but also by things like social media and and so on so it was a kind of a designed PhD I suppose which has been really nice so I was able to kind of come in I started in October 2020 um just as we were about to go into another lockdown um and and yeah I spent 12 months designing the research and working very closely with senior leaders and instructors within Outward Bound itself and created or designed a kind of research approach that I think well first of all was incredibly exciting I spent um quite a few weeks at different outward band centers climbing mountains canoeing across lakes and and yes it was it was fantastic and I'm now at the stage where I'm trying to write a thesis um so I've got all of my data I've done the analysis and so so yeah kind of at the stage this exciting stage of being able to come and talk to people like yourselves about what I've discussed and um and what I found so see yeah that's kind of the journey so far it sounds really interesting [Music] so as usual we have some comments from listeners on this topic so we're going to go to the first one which is from a year six teacher we always run a residential Outward Bound trip in year six it's a great opportunity for children to take risks and move outside of their comfort zones a lot of the risks that young people take nowadays are not necessarily physical so being willing to become braver and more resilient through physical tasks is a great way to prepare them for the transition to secondary so what kind of are the benefits from your guy's point of view about outdoor education for young people why is it so important so um one of the brilliant things about Outward Bound is that we've got kind of a designated in-house evaluation team which means that we have all these wonderful things happening in the mountains and on the Lakes but also a team that sit there and and evaluate the courses so we get young people involved kind of pre and post course or we have projects longer term of um get getting in touch with schools and teachers and young people so they don't just turn up do it and go home yeah yeah so it's kind of that full yeah picture and obviously for us it means that we have a really good understanding about what works for our courses and and how the the courses impact young people in on a long-term basis um and obviously that really helps with funding and everything else so definitely in terms of Outward Bound um our latest report um showed that our courses are really successful at enabling young people to develop confidence and social skills and helping them to reconnect with their peers and interact and know how to speak with one another and work together again post covered um obviously for the couple of years of covert they didn't they didn't work with them yeah with their peers they didn't work in teams um so we know that kind of outdoor education is really important for that and it off it gives them the opportunity to learn about resilience and tackling that fear of failure so they're trying things and activities and new things um and look and in a really safe environment where if they fail if they can't get to the top of that mountain or they forget their gloves or um get a bit cold and hungry then it is a obviously wild challenging but also a really safe environment to fail because then they'll work with their team to come back to it and think right how can we improve on that tomorrow when we're going out again and doing this other activity yeah um and then that we know that that really helps when they're back in school they've they've had practice of trying something difficult um having challenges along the way and then getting to the end of it and seeing what they've achieved and then we know that that really helps them when they're facing kind of um we talk about uh real mountains and in the Lake District and yeah snowdonia they're standing at the bottom of this massive Mountain looking up at it with their big heavy backpack thinking how on Earth yeah and at the end they look back and they look down from the top and think of all these things that they've done that help themselves and their peers and their friends to get to the top of that mountain and then we transfer that back to life back at school what the metaphorical amounts they're gonna face when they're back [Music] people are so Keen to get outdoors more since covid like I know I run the local Junior Rowing Club and our numbers have gone from 2 to 32 since covid like it's just because people are so Keen to be outside and doing stuff and yeah I think it really ties in with that kind of mental um well-being and mental health as well there's such an agenda of getting young people outside and challenging themselves or see trying new things and that's such a well it was something that was completely lacking for two years right yeah and then absolutely and I think there's probably something in in there as well around actually connecting to Nature as well you know in in school environments we know that that outdoor play spaces are being sort of drastically reduced actually on school campuses and so having the opportunity to come out and experience nature in yeah like in the Lake District or in the highlands of Scotland um I think that's really important especially given you know we are in a climate and ecological crisis and I think that having that direct connection and being able to sort of generate your senses and feel and touch and smell nature that's I think that that's that connection is really important um but I think the outdoors is also a fantastic way of bringing learning to life um I haven't come across a topic that you can't teach Outdoors whether it be history or geography or science you know all sorts of different um yeah Fields can be educated through the outdoors um and so I think certainly when it comes to organizations like Outward Bound but also just educating outside more broadly it absolutely just brings learning to life isn't it which I think is really important yes it's just nice to breed the fresh air sometimes isn't it yeah absolutely uh I have another comment from a listener to share with you this one it's from a parent to a student who's just returned from an outdoor residential uh my daughter recently went on an activity residential with her school she wasn't allowed to take her phone which she was quite nervous about but with hindsight it was by far the best thing she had a fantastic time and the lack of communication with Harry meant that she could really throw herself into all the activities the whole experience has really grown her confidence so Jack traditionally schools have tried to keep mobile technologies both out of the classroom and away from residential trips do you think they're fighting a losing battle but is this a battle they need to have hmm that's an interesting question isn't it and I mean I can only speak from my experience in the outdoors which you know is very different I'm sure to having 30 young people in the classroom or trying to go on Tick Tock I'm sure that that must be very different um but I am really interested in in this idea of It kind of being a battle um and certainly some of the data that I've generated has actually kind of looked at ways that mobile technologies and social media and broader spaces like gaming on Minecraft or Netflix for instance are actually generating an opportunity for young people to to talk about some of this stuff um so I do have a couple of examples um from my um engagement with young people the first was in every National Park in Northwestern Wales and it was a super hot day and we were out we were going camping we were going to go and climb a mountain and we decided that we were going to Camp just below the the summit overnight and then go and try and sunrise in the morning which was amazing it really was um but on the way there we walked through a huge Forest called the Diffie Forest um and for most of the young people who were there this was the first time they'd seen this kind of environment you know it was it really was incredible you know the sun was coming through the trees it was it was yeah it was idyllic um and we paused for a water break and the young people all of a sudden started collecting some sticks and were digging a hole over to the side of one of the tracks and so I thought hmm with my sort of researcher hat on I thought well this is this there must be something going on here so I went over and just asked a few questions and as it turns out they were digging for what they called the upside down now I'm not sure if you've come across the upside down yeah um from stranger things so for any listeners who don't know what stranger things is um it's a Netflix series I think there's um four series now and there's a fifth in production where there's a kind of physical Dimension that you would typically call normal life and an alternate Dimension that's beneath your feet that you can dig for um and beneath your feet is where all the bad things happen and so on would highly recommend watching um it's brilliant yeah it really is um yeah it is scary it is scary um but for the young people this was informing their imagination and informing the ways that they were engaging with nature and so initially I thought it was quite jovial quite amusing but it actually was quite serious um you know for these young people this was the first time like I said that they were in this environment and so there was a hint that the upside down could have been beneath their feet um and there is a character at the end of I think it's series three and I won't do any spoiler alerts just in case anybody wants to listen um who who dies in in the series and there was a call around digging for this person to see if they could find them and so like I say there was an element of realism there which is very interesting um and then the second one was actually around Minecraft um so the game Minecraft where you can kind of builds environments and build a house and so on I'm sure most people are familiar with that but I saw um in the Lake District actually we were canoeing across all's water and we were waiting for one of the Steamers that goes up and down in the summer to dock so we were sitting out in the middle of the lake it was a beautiful day and the instructor was describing some of the trees that they that we could see on the on the bank of of olds water and instead of it being an oak tree or an Elm or or whatever it might be the young people straight away related that to Minecraft and about how actually this was something that they could build a house with or something that was a fantastic building block for something else um and so so yeah I guess that idea of it being a battle or it's it maybe overlooks some of the Nuance that I was seeing that's right in terms of the ways that young people are engaging in these online environments certainly learning in these online environments and then applying that almost I suppose a sense making Baseline to interpret what they were seeing and thinking and feeling so so yeah that's kind of what I saw um but what I also saw was actually outward band kind of constructing purposeful phone free time yeah as a challenge and it's something that was part of the Outward Bound experience and very often young people were actually really Keen to do that and to experience often for the first time 24 hours without their phone yeah and there was of course a few people who were concerned about that but again it was about pushing that that idea of being comfortable and trying to see what actually what life might be like without a mobile phone um and so kind of flipping it on its head as well um interestingly with the Netflix example the young people didn't have their phones there so even though their phones weren't present um it was still that kind of online space informing their experience yeah yeah and it's so interesting that these pupils and students do not have the experience of not having a mobile phone because like if you're as old as I am I remember life before the internet so you know but they genuinely they don't obviously so it's so interesting isn't it I was born in in 1995 so almost at the the turn of this guy into the age um and I did have a phone free Early Childhood um but not so much towards the end of my childhood certainly um and that's something that I saw actually coming through quite strongly attacked with band was was young people really having a thirst to connect and connect with home um and friends and one thing that came out quite prominently was Snapchat streaks and needing to maintain history to maintain the streak um and that was a real source of anxiety for some young people actually was the fear of of kind of losing that streak um and so so yeah that kind of 24-hour period I guess that was one I was sort of referring to when some young people were maybe a little bit unsure was actually needing to walk them through quite quite carefully actually this is what's going to happen this is why it's maybe beneficial but critically you will get yourself back at the end and you will be able to speak with your parents tonight and that element of comfort and safety was being sought through yeah yeah um and I think post covid as well where we know that young people have spent a lot more time at home and so on um you know very often the young people I was engaging with it was the first time maybe ever that they had left their local town but certainly post-covered um and and so it was a big step to get on the bus on a Monday morning and go away for five days and yeah absolutely facilitated into that sort of sense of safety I suppose it's a totally different world that we're growing up in now compared to even yeah yeah I was when it wasn't that long ago yeah it changed so much yeah and I think we need to understand that when we're educating young people that this is the world they are used to and so not to maybe not to demonize the technology but just use it and then also have periods of time when they don't have it so they can see what it's like to know I think that's really good [Music] it's your own time you're wasting so why not stick the kettle on put your feet up and have a Cuppa ah Bliss okay so let's just come to our final audience comment which shakes a little bit of a different tack so here it is when I was in year nine about 30 years ago we were all sent on a week-long trip which involved hiking canoeing abseiling and all sorts of other adventurous activities I should have been really excited but basically I just remember being terrified because I had my period the toilets were awful the showers were communal which is painfully embarrassing when you're a pubescent girl well I think that outdoor activities are great for team building and personal growth I think when you are a teenager appropriate facilities are an important part of the mix which often gets ignored that's from a media studies teacher mm-hmm so Emily many students will have fears about going away or residentials for all sorts of reasons do you think kind of allowing access to mobiles can help to alleviate these fears do you think there's other stuff we can do yeah I think it's a really interesting one and Jack's touched on it about how kind of mobile phones can be kind of a portable comfort zone for you yeah but I think one of the my favorite and I think one of the most powerful parts of an outer bound course is that on the first day of the course it's really almost all courses start in our very traditional way of going for a jogging bit and they sometimes very much kind of Applause sometimes they're a longer run um but it's thinking about getting young people immersed in the wilderness and in kind of the mindset of this being a learning opportunity as quickly as possible and so it's really common that on a Monday of a start of a course you'll see all these little groups of students down on the the Lakeshore or the lockshaw um in their circle of their team and talking about company zones and often that will get drawn out on this in the sand or with the Rope on the on the beach and really thinking about kind of what's inside your comfort zones the world that you're familiar with the things you know and you do daily that um that you're comfortable doing yeah and then the things that will come this week that might be in that stretch Zone and the stretch zones are really important place to go to because yeah Learning Happens um that's new things but actually to step into that stretch Zone will feel like a stretch and then there's the Panic Zone beyond that and actually really emphasizing to Stu to the young people that some things will be within their comfort zone if someone's been in Scouts all their life then walking up a mountain or yeah their parents to the Lake District than being on a way for five days in the late District might actually already be within yeah Comfort Zone but for others and it sounds like this kind of person that's submitted in this kind of comment actually just being away from her home in a new environment yeah in kind of a world that they're not used to is going to be comfort zone and that's great but how can we support people within that and it starts a really nice conversation of how can the team around that those people come together to um to build confidence of everyone to support people to encourage them where it's needed and I mean yeah kind of our instructors are so brilliant at facilitating that and then it kind of progresses on that everyone kind of goes into the lake to some amount that they're kind of stretched by so for some people that might just be putting their toes in or going to their ankles other people might be jumping in off the jetty and that's fine that for different people um that level of challenge is going to be different and challenging for each individual personally um but I think it's really important that as Leaders as a as a trust we yeah we really think about how young people feel coming to our Center and how we can put things in place to make them feel safe and it's that hierarchy of course isn't it no learning is going to happen in a positive way that we want it to unless people are yeah fed and watered and feel safe and comfortable in the environment they're in so it's definitely um something we obviously yeah focus on so much of making people feel safe and comfortable in the situation they are in so that they can take those steps just to go back to The Jug and dip is that all year round because we're turning up October and it is cold yeah and and that's the thing it's it's a very traditional thing obviously it started um back in in Wales when we were talking about kind of um people on on boats surviving that cold water but now it's very much a really immersive experience where they have to come together and cheer each other on and yeah and in January when it's snowing outside and they're standing at the shore of the lake it feels it's Madness isn't it are we really gonna do this everyone do a little bit of kind of challenging themselves it just sets at home amazingly for the next five days yeah in January I see photos often or I I'm hop down to see one of my customers at the lake and you see pictures of people jumping in on in January and young people are mad they're yeah stronger than adults I was gonna say when we went in October my feet came off the ground therefore I turned it piece well that was my rule I think that's fair enough yeah as um as part of my research I I took part in three different jogging dips um at the three different centers and it was just incredible actually I mean so I did go into all's water um this was in May so maybe a little bit warmer than October I'm not sure but it was still it was still Baltic I thought at least um and there was a young person in the group who was really nervous actually about going into the water um and so we kind of as a team came around and and just sort of walked this young person through it and eventually he was able to come up to his knees um and his confidence was you know increasing a little bit and then all of a sudden it was up to his hips and after about five minutes he managed to submerge his face which was just amazing and the power of that experience for that young person was wait yeah you just almost can't put it into words really sort of seeing the transformation even just through one activity and I got speaking with him afterwards um just to say how fantastic that was and he said and this will be in my thesis he said um I saw an influencer do it and so I felt like I could do it and so he was telling this story of how before he came to Outward Bound he was looking at some of the activities that are likely to be taking place and he went on YouTube and he was looking at some of these experiences and so it was that foundational experiences of experience of seeing the influencer that was one of the contributing factors to make him think you know what I can do this so yeah it was really nice because we recorded a podcast a while ago um that had was talking about influences and kind of such a negative way um and kind of how they can be such a negative influence so it's good to kind of know that there's a absolute positive influence out there as well and kind of yeah and all sorts obviously it's just such a nice location talking about this is making me feel really jealous yeah but and it can be a really like a really powerful for it like framed to the start of the course as well so at lochiela us Center in the Scottish Highlands you're there in in the sea lock so it's salty it's obviously very different environment to lots of young people are used to but then also you can see Ben Nevis you can see all these massive mountains around you and you can stand there and like right actually we're gonna we're gonna climb over there this week we're gonna canoe from here down to here we might Camp over there and it can be a really amazing like foundational point for the week and then it all Builds on that so remember that time where we cheered on um each other to go a little bit further into the into the water and it builds on the week and frames and they're learning it sounds amazing do some hard things that might make them a bit uncomfortable and cold yeah but actually we're going to cheer each other on we're going to try something new and at the end of the day we'll be back in the showers nice and warm in a bit yeah then you'll feel amazing because you've done it I think it was on ellswortha and there was just this really cool Cliff you could jump off and it was really it wasn't even a cliff it wasn't that high but it was just so much fun and like the difference between my sister and I kind of and my brother-in-law was amazing because I had no problems doing it my sister it took herself some persuading and there's no way that my brother-in-law was even gonna think about doing it it was hilarious I think one of my favorite like moments when I was instructing with that on that Monday trying to have a jog and dip and young people being terrified of this water it's such an unfamiliar environment for young people that aren't used to swimming kind of chlorinated swimming pool yeah and so actually you have that major challenge at the beginning of the week but then by the Friday they're really up for that challenge so they've grown that comfort zone and so it's quite um you'll see often on a Friday afternoon a Friday morning sorry um in The Lakes um young people doing a dog and dip again or progressing it and going on a power boat to probably those same Clips yeah over to kale Park the other side of the lake and you can um yeah you can climb up on onto a small Edge and you know the biggest jumps are meter in half like it I stand at the top of it and feel yeah no it's bigger than that this one I wonder what an amazing experience to go that's all kind of learning at the beginning of the week to being putting your toes in you need yeah finding that challenging but by the end you're there wetsuited up with helmets yes it's easy to see it isn't it happening in front of your right when so much of learning in the classroom is more difficult to pin down sometimes yeah yeah I was also interested in in the feedback that you read out there Marie around the kind of facilities associated with outdoor education and I think was it 30 years ago that your listener had their experience um around kind of being on her periods and the kind of normal showers and these kinds of things and actually that's in terms of outdoor education in in the present day that's absolutely isn't the case in terms of you know those facilities are fundamentally different but also I was really interested in kind of thinking a little bit when I saw that comment and when I heard it just then around kind of normalizing some of these conversations around periods and these kinds of things and I think that actually Atwood band is an opportunity if young people are kind of keen to pursue that and if teachers are Keen to pursue that to to actually normalize this and to know that you can wear a wetsuit on your period and these connect to us so also around having those kinds of conversations and there's another PhD candidate at the University of Edinburgh her name is Morgan Luddington who is looking at female experiences in the outdoors especially around periods and so there is a kind of Research Foundation being built there as well which is amazing so so yeah I thought I'd just quickly mentioned that so this is a question for both of you what advice would you give to teachers planning residential or activity trips and how can they incorporate mobile technologies into their planning to benefit the students yeah I I can maybe start off with on that one so something that I saw um kind of coming through quite prominently was actually the role of parents in all of this um and young people feeling like they need to keep in touch with parents um first of all because of what we've already discussed around it's kind of feelings safe and comfortable but I also saw some young people feeling a little bit of pressure to get in touch with parents especially when phones were being left at home or left at the center rather for extended periods of time so one of the the kind of pieces of pieces of advice that I would have for any teacher thinking about doing this would be to bring parents along from the very outset and explain to them that actually there's going to be times where your young person isn't going to be contractable but I can guarantee you that they are absolutely safe um and and I think actually kind of heading that for the past quite early is quite important um and and it is I mean naturally apparent is going to be concerned about their young person going away for that period of time yeah but it's also a young person is going there to learn um and what I saw at least was that some young people did feel a little bit of pressure to be like oh my goodness I need to contact my mum I need to speak to my dad tonight um otherwise they'll worry about me so there was a little bit there um and also what I did see and I have seen work quite well is Teachers posting on social media during the residential trip so being on Twitter and saying you know day three updates and there's lots of photos and all these kinds of things um which is actually really nice actually in terms of when you get back to the school to then be able to show this to the young people look what we were doing last week do you remember this was day three and to kind of use that as a method of enhancing that transfer of learning and that development of memory and I think that's where photograph and kind of taking a waterproof camera or something like that can be really helpful so so yeah the kind of parenting thing certainly um and then also sharing on on social media I think is is two ways that yeah that kind of stuff and definitely kind of I think we find kind of working with all these different in schools across the country the better prepared the young people are for kind of what to expect but also knowing that this residential is going to be a learning opportunity it's not just a holiday where it's going to be easy all the time and the more that they're prepared the more they get from it and it's um schools that can um make it part of kind of a longer term investment of kind of this this happens at this key time in year eight and we're going to build up to it and afterwards we're going to really utilize that learning and the more of that that happens obviously within challenges of fitting everything into the curriculum yeah but it works it then isn't just a standalone five-day experience and it's um it is definitely a challenge of how you can transfer that learning back into the young people's real world but the more you can do that the um then the young people will remember to experience but going forward um and remember those skills that they drew upon to get together that mountain or when they were scared when they were standing um at the bottom of a clip Cliff face having to rely on their friends to kind of belay them up and keep them safe um and there's just there's loads of brilliant resources that people can draw upon to kind of set up that learning and reuse it back um when they get back into school but it definitely is kind of the more that can be done the longer lasting effects um and it's yeah it is a challenge to get it right for sure thank you it's your own time you're wasting ramblings from Beyond the classroom with Marie and Jody there's not a lot they don't know about teaching [Music] we like to finish with two stars no wish which if you don't know a star is positive idea or experience on this episode and a wish is a wish we all know what wishes are um does anyone have a star they'd like to start with um I think my star was definitely I find it so fascinating hearing about what Jack found on the courses and actually just totally coming from such a different lens to what I saw when I was instructing um and the link to kind of stranger things in Minecraft just because yeah the young people's real world that they're so it they see it as such a real thing it is fascinating um yeah lovely nice yeah and I think I think mine was was kind of maybe a bit bit broader but kind of maybe building on Emily's piece there a little bit around young people actually bringing this set of knowledge to the outdoors is is actually outdoor education as a method of broadening young people's Horizons yeah very often especially with the Minecraft and Netflix references it was like oh my goodness these these environments actually exist I can't believe this um and we were we were canoeing funnily enough across all's water I feel like we've discussed because heaven yeah exactly and with a canoeing across and this this young person almost under his breath there was nobody listening but I was sitting next to him and he was looking out at the environment and he just said I can't believe I'm here I can't believe what I'm seeing and it wasn't for the benefit of anybody else but it was just just for him um and I think really that's that would be the star point that I would take away is actually yeah just the power of educating in these [Music] do you have a wish for outdoor education why the government should fund outdoor education for every young person right absolutely and we're seeing it in Wales and Scotland um we're seeing that on the agenda and hopefully yeah same in England as well um because yeah we know the power of outside yeah well when when I was thinking about this earlier I did write down residential experiences to be compulsory for all young people in the UK that was what I wrote down and I did do a little bit of searching actually around what's happening in Scotland and Wales and there's lots of exciting things um so in Scotland they're currently looking at a residential outdoor education bill which has been consulted on and I think they had 535 responses of which over 95 indicated they wanted residential outdoor education to be compulsory in Scotland and in Wales they're currently Consulting on an outdoor education bill as well looking at making residential outdoor education compulsory so yeah it's a wish but it's also absolutely somewhere it's happening hopefully fingers crossed yes so thank you very much for listening and thank you to our two guests don't forget to like follow And subscribe and if you have any comments you wish to send to us please send them to beyondmailbag twinkle dot Co dot UK you're the expert laughs this podcast is proudly produced by Beyond please bear in mind the views and opinions expressed are those of individuals and may not represent those of beyond all twinkle
2023-05-28 13:53
