How Should The Church Embrace New Technologies? — Good Faith Debates

How Should The Church Embrace New Technologies? — Good Faith Debates

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foreign [Music]   Welcome to TCG's good faith debates the good faith  debates are a series of conversations where   we bring together people to have conversations  about contemporary issues of life and culture   sometimes issues that are confusing challenging  even divisive in hopes that you will learn a   little bit about the issues and how to how to  engage in them my name is Jim Davis I'm pastor   of Orlando Grace Church and it's my privilege to  be able to moderate these debates the topic for   today is technology technology is changing at a  rate faster than we've ever seen before and the   question should the church be quick or slow to  embrace these new technologies so with me today   I have Patrick Miller who is Pastor podcaster and  author of Truth over tribe and I have Jay Kim who   comes to us from Silicon Valley also pastor and  author of analog Christian and analog church thank   you both for joining us today great to be here  yeah thanks for having us well we'll start with   you Patrick what is your perspective on this issue  well my first perspective is that Jay is going to   have to use stone tablets for the entire evening  since he's defending the other side I know in all   seriousness it's great to be here because Jay  and I have actually become friends out of this   and we've had some fantastic conversations on the  topic and so I'm going to start with a story that   might sound like I'm defending the other position  I promise I'm not I was about three years ago a   couple comes into my office older couple and the  wife is crying and the husband puts his arm around   her and he's telling her it's going to be okay but  he's wrong she's not going to be okay because she   just lost her mom but not to death to Facebook  three years before that she got her mom onto   Facebook she goes from being Facebook illiterate  to a Facebook junkie she goes from being a great   grandma he's liking all the photos of her great  grandkids to liking all Q Anon photos and all Q   Anon posts she goes from being a Godly woman who  told her daughter you know love your enemies kill   them with kindness to saying no the world's about  to end we've got to fight the culture war and all   this happens in a very short period of time and  sharing she tried multiple times to reach out to   her mom to help her see what was going on but she  couldn't get her back and she's crying on my couch   she's saying I lost my mom to Facebook and when  that happened I kept asking how did we get here   how did this happen and to answer that question  we've got to roll back the clock about five years   ago five years ago inside of countries like Iran  China and Russia there were foreign Nationals   that were propping up American Facebook pages  and Facebook groups and 2021 MIT report found   out that it got so bad that 19 of the top 20  Christian Facebook pages were run by Foreign   troll Farms they were specifically targeting  Christians the largest one of these groups had 75   million Christians inside of it and the strategy  of these groups was pretty straightforward 9 out   of 10 posts were you know totally milk toast  you know kind of Evangelical type stuff right   it's just curse of e Bible verses over Mountain  Landscapes a few CS Lewis all the stuff that   you'd expect but then there was that one out of  ten the misinformation the disinformation the   conspiracy theories and because they're looking  at this group and saying oh my gosh there's 75   million other Christians on here I should trust  this obviously it's credible but it's not it's a   foreign run troll farm and so these groups they  were able to take people captive and it made me   ask the question why were they targeting  Christians I mean you can Target a lot of   different people and the answer is actually really  simple they wanted a large demographic that had   a dearth of content because they knew they could  if they could give them contact they could engage   with them they could destabilize democracy in our  country and that's why they targeted Christians   which should make us ask another question which  is why was there such a dearth of content we have   to go back another five to ten years to the  time period when Facebook YouTube Twitter and   Instagram were all spooling up and if you look  at what Christian leaders and Christian pastors   were saying at the time for the most part the  message was either this stuff is a fad and I can   ignore it or on the other hand it was the steps  of distraction and it would be Noble to ignore it   so as a result that's exactly what Christians did  in other words here's the tragedy we created a   vacuum that the trolls that the foreign trolls  came and filled up and then they took millions   and millions of Christians captive to quote the  Apostle Paul with false and empty philosophy   and then those people uh in the long run in  some senses lost the heart of their faith   75 million people in that single group remember  19 out of 20 and those people are people like   Sherry's mom and that's how we got there  and so when I think about that it makes me   realize that right now in the church we aren't  just two steps behind we're ten steps behind   we we are in a rough spot you know the Apostle  Paul told Timothy that we need to be prepared to   preach the word in season and out of season but  we were not prepared for this season this little   device in all of our pockets uh it is the most  powerful discipleship tool ever invented or at   least in the last 500 years since the printing  press it forms people it shapes people and the   idolatrous systems and powers of the world they're  happy to utilize it but here we are 15 years after   its invention debating should we and it's not just  that American Christians and Americans in general   they are living in that digital Babylon but  where's the church where are the Christians why is   there such a dearth of Engagement and content and  so I think right now we're facing maybe the most   profound missional moment missional question of  Our Generation and perhaps again of the last 500   years which is how can we to misquote acts 13 36  how can we be faithful in our digital generation   how can we be faithful in this particular moment  you know does does the spirit only work on analog   Networks or does the Great Commission have  a little asterisk after it you know Make   Disciples of all the nations but don't do it on  the internet because we know what happens there   these are the questions you have to face Maybe  most fundamentally is a question can the Holy   Spirit subvert this technology now I want to make  a few really quick caveats so people know what I'm   not saying the first caveat is this digital can  never replace the vital in-person work of the   church on this I think we have tremendous levels  of agreement it cannot replace it but I do think   that digital technology can enhance what happens  inside of the church and some very profound and   tremendous ways the second thing I would say is  this a lot of people in my Camp they like to say   that technology is neutral it's just a tool you  know you can do whatever you want to do with it   I vehemently disagree with that technology is  not neutral the internet is not neutral and   in particular social media is not neutral these  were designed with a purpose with a goal in mind   and they didn't have our best interest in mind  when they designed them so when we're talking   about this technology we have to talk about can  it be subverted because it's not designed to do   things for our good and I think that the answer  to that question is yes I think we look throughout   Christian history we can get a really clear eye  to answer we can see multiple forms of non-neutral   technology that the Spirit came in and transformed  and the fundamental thing that I would say here is   not that these are all the same things as digital  technology but there's some examples so I'll just   give a few really quickly number one would be  roads the Romans they they created the world's   largest network of roads with one very non-neutral  purpose they wanted to efficiently move their   violent Imperial War Machine wherever they wanted  it to go Paul subverted that technology he used   it to plant churches and to spread the letters  that eventually became the New Testament another   example may be more modern is the printing  press when the printing press was invented   it was largely used to create gossip pamphlets  and spread conspiracy theories so sounds like   something else I've heard of but moving forward  what happened the reformers they subverted it by   printing vernacular translation to the Bible and  spreading them across Europe it was a non-neutral   technology but again we saw the Spirit do his work  another one would be radio the early days of the   radio were incredibly bad one of the most popular  speakers was Father Charles Coughlin who used it   to promote pro-nazi profascist anti-semitic  commentary for over a decade but Billy Graham   saw the potential and he subverted the technology  using it to call people to repent and believe in   the gospel across the country and so I realized  that these new technologies the internet social   media and whatever comes after it they're not  the same as those things and yet I really firmly   believe that the spirit can work to subvert  those Technologies and that he's going to work   as he's always done through people who see the  possibilities and are willing to work out in the   end how we can do these things together and so I  realize we have to ask some important questions   about how we should engage we've we've counted  the cost of engagement we've been counting the   cost of engagement for 15 years I just wonder  if we've counted the cost of disengagement   and I wonder if the cost is Sherry's mom and  I wonder if the cost is millions of Christians   across our country who are being fed false  information I wonder if the cost is billions of   people across the world who could be reached for  the gospel if we would use this technology if we   would harness it for good I think if we did that  and we did it to the glory of God and if we found   people who were ethically sound theologically  informed practitioners of digital Ministry we   could see some real amazing transformation not  just in our country but across the globe thank   you Patrick Jay what's your perspective yeah well  first I'll say You know despite our differences   um I love that we're talking about this I think  we agree all of us probably agree in just the   pervasiveness and the ubiquity of digital  technology it's here it's not going away so   we have to address the topic a couple of thoughts  come to mind for me first I I want to make clear   I'm not anti-technology I'm not anti-digital  technology in in the same way that I'm not an   anti-car I am for a car driving children safely to  school in the morning I am against a car driving   60 miles down a little neighborhood street where  kids are playing right so I'm not for or against   I think again much like a car you know there's a  reason why I wouldn't let my seven-year-old drive   a car it doesn't necessarily mean that she'll  never drive a car in fact the hope is someday she   will drive a car but there's a very good reason  why she doesn't drive one now there is a potential   danger that's latent within the technology  that she is not prepared for or ready for so   that's the first thing I'm not anti-technology  but I do think that engaging technology and in   particular new technologies digital Technologies  with as much care and thoughtfulness and caution   in some cases is just so vitally important  again for a number of reasons one that Patrick   has already mentioned that they are non-neutral  Technologies they have an intention and a design   um they and they pose I think a really fascinating  complexity in that you know unlike cars you get   into a car because you have an intention to  get from point A to point B unlike a hammer you   only pick up a hammer when you're going to nail  something unlike those other tools uh digital   Technologies again have a ubiquity a pervasiveness  to them in that they are constant everywhere all   the time and in any moment of boredom we find  ourselves leaning in there is a sort of inherent   um addiction an addictional uh an addictive  property to them and so that leads us to the   question you know should churches be fast or slow  to lean into and embrace new technology and I want   to say the first thing I think is there there  is an inherent fear baked into going too slow   particularly in a culture that is as progress  oriented and speed oriented fast-moving is ours   falling behind is akin to falling off a cliff you  know this sort of descent spiral into irrelevance   and I think a lot of churches and church leaders  fear that and then the Assumption conversely the   assumption is well if we can quickly and  innovatively lean into new technologies   then we can get ahead we can go fast we can  go first and that'll put us ahead but I would   actually argue that we have already evidence to  the contrary LifeWay research noted that by April   of 2020 a month into the pandemic basically every  Church in America 97 percent had an online service   up and running and then Barna researched just a  few months later in the summer of 2020 just three   or four months into the pandemic found that um the  most digitally native amongst us Millennials and   gen Z who had gone to church prior to the pandemic  they were leaving the church and disengaging from   online church at the the highest rate and so  those who are most comfortable with digital   were the ones that were watching and engaging  online the least so I I would actually suggest   that as the church has rushed headlong into new  technologies whatever is sort of at our disposal   the results have been mixed at best and I would  say disastrous at worst overall Church engagement   has declined congregations you know Sherry's mom  fracturing over online content has increased and   the public witness of the church I would argue has  suffered because of those things and some would   suggest I think Patrick would suggest that it's  because the church is not innovating enough right   and this line of thinking proposes that mere  presence online is not enough that we have to   begin going first we have to lead the way we have  to innovate and subvert these new technologies   and I I would admit that there is some Redemptive  potential in this line of thinking but I do think   that there's an inherent problem in that it does  not adequately take into account what we've both   mentioned already the inherent design of these new  technologies so as one example social media which   is a it's a prime example because it again it's  huge it's significant social media is designed   for many things but one thing it's designed for  is scale right it's designed for reach the power   of social media in part is that you can tweet  or post one thing and with that one thing you   have the potential to achieve scale at a rate  that no other technology would have allowed any   individual in years prior and so this is why  so many of us are addicted to the sort of slot   slot machine pull of the refresh lever because  essentially we want to see the promise of scale   and reach fulfilled and so we pull that lever  how many likes how many retweets how many shares   scale and reach I would suggest are about being  noticed by as many as possible as near or as far   as possible and this is actually a wonderful  approach I think when it comes to content and   content is important right christ-centered gospel  saturated content is necessary vitally important   but I would argue while content can Inspire and  inform content alone cannot transform it cannot   transform Sherry's mother it cannot transform the  people at my church whom I love and serve and of   course it is God alone and his goodness and his  grace who can truly transform a life through the   regenerative work of his Spirit but I think most  often God chooses to do that transformational   work through the medium of real human beings and  so in other words I think the most effective way   to reach an unbelieving and hurting world is  not scale but what I would call symmetry right   individual Christians and Collective Church  communities aligning their energies together   toward a handful of those within the ripple effect  of their life family friends co-workers local   towns neighborhoods you know workplaces schools  Etc and leaning into those lives as personally and   as intimately as possible now I would say that  symmetry is not about reach it's about Rapport   it's about relationship it doesn't focus on being  noticed by as many as far as possible and instead   I think symmetry helps us to notice as many as  possible within our proximity and to be sure this   is slow work it's far slower than social media  it's far slower than scale it's it's certainly   much slower than the ability to get one piece of  content out there to the masses it doesn't work   that way but when the church grabs hold too  quickly of new technologies thinking only of   potential possibilities and missed opportunities  I believe the church leaves herself susceptible in   two key ways first embracing new technology too  fast I think leaves the church susceptible to   being subsumed Again by the overwhelming power  and design of the technology itself sabotaging   even our best efforts toward Redemptive subversion  we've seen this in recent years as churches rushed   to social media in the wake of a variety of  cultural moments making statements too quickly   taking sides and they were all in in good faith  attempts to represent Jesus but often we saw them   fail miserably and unnecessarily alienate entire  segments of our congregations because of a lack of   nuance and faltering back to square one and two I  think the other danger is and maybe most important   is that embracing new technology leaves the church  susceptible to losing sight of the very real thing   in our midst not potential or possibilities out  there but the seemingly mundane and ordinary   gift of proximity right here yeah we are to take  the gospel to the ends of the Earth but that   Journey always begins in Jerusalem or in Silicon  Valley or in Missouri or in Florida wherever it   might be wherever we are and so I think that one  of the dangers of new technology is that it has   a tendency to constantly shift our gaze always  toward the distant Horizons where real people   feel and look like an easily reachable mass and  when our gaze fixes on the when it fixates on   the horizons I think again we are susceptible to  losing the gift of proximity and the invitation   to build rapport and relationship with those  right here in our midst Jesus says in John   15 right abide in me and I in you in a branch  cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in   the vine neither can you unless you you abide in  me this is gardening language right gardening is   slow and it's steady it's often boring it's often  unspectacular and it certainly is not about going   first nor is it about going fast in fact it is  in many ways the antithesis of speed gardening   requires patience it's mostly watching and waiting  but there is no other way to Bear healthy fruit   you can't microwave an orange and so it is with  the church and for me I think in recent years   I have found immense confidence and comfort in  contemplating the long slow steady Arc of God's   unfolding history that in his sovereignty and his  faithfulness he has led his church through Wars   and famines and pandemics before he has gently  and effectively LED his church through countless   cultural shifts and technological advancements  and that has not and will never change and my   belief is that under his care even when we go slow  we're never behind thank you Jay I appreciate it   my question my first question is going to be for  you Patrick obviously here there is a caution   from being on the Forefront of Technology when you  consider how untested these new technologies are   you know you've said that we're 10 steps behind  is there value sometimes when you consider how   untested the Technologies are and unknown and  how we've not discipled our people into these   Technologies is their values sometimes to being  10 steps behind yeah I well I would say maybe not   10 steps behind but I think there is some value to  being a little bit behind in fact when it comes to   digital technology in general the the Pioneer  rarely wins who here uses Yahoo to search who   here's favorite social media is MySpace being the  first really no longer on AOL Instant Messenger   yeah yeah you've got mail you know that kind of  proves the point though the goal for the church   is not to be a technologist our goal is not to  be pioneers of new technology I think my fear and   it's interesting because obviously Jay you're  coming from Silicon Valley so you're actually   surrounded by tech people I live in Missouri  I live in Missouri so I'm never around those   kinds of people and so so you know our context  might shape some of our perception with this   but as I look at the church right now we are  not wobbling on the precipice of the future   we're tripping backwards over our own feet into  the past and so I'm not saying let's get up to   Step One or even step two I'm okay with step three  four or five the stuff that we're doing on our   team as practitioners of this kind of ministry is  not really exciting it's very it's very basic down   down the pipe uh marketing that really you could  read any book and find out a little bit about and   yet we're still light years ahead of most churches  we're so light years ahead of most Christian   content creators and the heart again behind this  is that what we've seen is that when we utilize   these very simple very inexpensive tools there are  enormous results in just the last year we've been   trying to reach the church people which is the  quickest growing group of people walking away from   the church and it's a massive massive problem you  know that and we we thought how do we get these   people back and so with a very small advertising  budget and with a very simple strategy we started   using email devotionals and we created Target  audiences to go after those people and what we   discovered was that about 10 percent of the people  that we were able to reach online would end up in   a real in-person Church context within the next  year that 10 of those people were going to come   and so this year we're on target for bringing  about a thousand new people who were de-churched   back into churches and that kind of highlights  the point this is where I'm saying enhancement   is the name of the game it's not replacement we  talk about live streams live streams are a form   of replacement what does the live stream do it's a  broadcast of what's happening on a stage or inside   of a church and it's trying to replace what's  happening there I don't want to replace it we   don't actually do much with live streaming to  be honest what we want to do is enhance what we   already have and bring people into the church  using the technology that we have so I see it   as a Synergy between the two not not picking  between one or the other that's really helpful   so Jay you made the comment content alone  cannot transform yet you you write articles   for TGC you're here debating something that  will be delivered um through through technology   do you believe I mean you must believe that  your efforts here can can contribute here do you   believe that by the holy spirit's activity that I  mean your efforts can be used to transform lives   through technology or is there a contradiction  there sure yeah I mean yeah content is important   I want to make that clear what I am not saying  is that content doesn't matter just show up to   a building do life with another human being and  everything will be well that's not what I'm saying   I would also say you know analog embodied  presence is not the answer to everything we   didn't always have digital this is like maybe a  25 30 year old phenomenon for us the church had   many problems long before the internet so it's  not like analog showing up it solves everything   um content is is vitally important I think the  only thing the argument I'm trying to make is   that content alone is incomplete I think that  content at its best can Inspire it certainly   can inform and and inspiration and information  no right knowledge all of those things matter   a great deal but I think the Christian Life  is a life cult that needs to be lit lived you   know it's an embodied life it's not knowing the  right things it's living in alignment with right   knowledge and I think if we over emphasize  content content content that's all you need   let's get into these spaces and let's overwhelm  bad content with good gospel-centered content   again I'm not saying that's unimportant like  you've said I participate in that endeavor and   I believe in it that's why I do but I believe  it's one step in the direction of a transformed   life it really does require and I think this is  where Patrick and I both diverge and maybe have   some agreement the goal you know the end of  the line is to is to make sure that followers   of Jesus encounter the Risen Christ within  the context of other human beings who are   um attempting at least to follow Jesus and Live  Like Jesus in no ways do you feel like that's   in line with what you were just saying this is  what we always end up laughing about is we end   up agreeing in the end because I would she's going  to the same destination you you might be talking   about getting there different ways but but that  sounds very similar to what you're saying about   replacement yeah I mean as a pastor the thing that  I see change people's lives is of course content   and it's also Community you need both of them and  one without the other really does the trick and   again that's why it's so key for us to say that  the goal is not to replace Community or to replace   analog connection it's to supplement it this was  a few years ago Home Depot hired a new CEO they   bring him in and he says I'm going to be all about  online and so the project he takes on is changing   their website so it'll bring more traffic onto the  website and everybody's freaking out we're going   to end up hiring you know firing all these people  who are in our stores you're not building any new   stores this is going to be terrible for the brand  well what he did was he worked really hard to make   sure that everything they did on the internet  brought people into the store you could if you   had a return you could return it at the store if  you wanted to pick it up same day you could go   pick it up same day at the store he he multiplied  foot traffic inside of the building tremendously   during this period and it was because he was  using the internet to get people in side of the   four doors of their Home Depot stores and that's  again how I want to see the the internet right   now is do we have a way to use the technology  that we have to get people inside of community   and inside search especially in an increasingly  post post-christian culture where people have   to take a lot of steps before they ever show up  inside those doors to begin with so what are some   ways that you see the church misusing technology  right now well I I think there's countless ways uh   here's what happens in a lot of churches they go  out they read the best marketing books out there   and they just baptize it and they just they they  just recreate what they see there so for example   there's a guy named Gary vaynerchuk or garyvee  he's a very famous marketer and his approach is   essentially how to create a celebrity you know and  so I see people coming to the church and they take   his approach and now their goal is to turn their  Pastor into a celebrity well that's not promoting   Jesus and again it by the way almost entirely  focuses around the live stream the replacement   of the in person with the with the digital thing  and so that's an example of if your goal on social   media is to turn your pastor into a celebrity  that's incredibly problematic but the reality is   that the threat is not how the church is using it  it's how other people are using it and how that's   shaping people inside the church because we just  aren't using it very much all right so you bring   up a really good point we're not looking to make  our pastors celebrities hopefully but Jay you said   um you talked about the risk of the potential out  there distracting us from the mundane ordinary   calling of proximity right here so as a pastor  my primary focus is Orlando Grace Church as   pastors we have a primary focus outside of our  family and our own faith so but we now have all   these other opportunities to engage with our  own church and the broader community Through   podcasting or YouTube or whatever it is what  are some warning signs that a pastor is Maybe   tilting into a bad area when we may be  forgetting our primary focus that we're called to   that's a great question I think any time the word  brand is involved in anything with the kingdom of   God you've created competing values and it's  not necessarily even that you use the word I   think if anything sort of smells of brand and  brand building and establishing brand I think   that's a key warning sign and and I think this  is where Patrick and I actually diverge and maybe   it's because I cannot see yet but it is difficult  for me to imagine that um you know success and in   particular measurable metric success on social  media for example can be achieved without some   form of brand building now I say this in some  ways is self-indictment right I some of my work   is semi-public so you could make the argument well  Jay you've written this article for that you're on   this video right that the are you building a brand  so yeah I mean I will readily admit I live within   the tension of that but I love what you said Jim  I try to to think of myself and sort of Center my   myself on that reality I think we were talking  before we started filming that primarily I see   myself as a follower of Jesus as a husband and  a father and a local church pastor who's called   to love and serve the people within my proximity  now because of the digital realities in which we   live certainly we have some digital expressions of  our church and we have variety of reasons for that   um but but I just I try to be really careful  about brand building again not to say I do it   perfectly but but that's where for me I think  leaning too hard too fast into digital into new   technologies at our disposal I'm just not sure  that the human heart and I'm growing increasingly   sure that the human heart is not conditioned  for the platforms that are at our disposal and   what they offer us I just even even the most  faithful amongst us I think um yeah the reach   and the scale that they offer us we just leave  ourselves really vulnerable I think well there   are sadly many stories to support yeah that's  right what you're saying in just the past 10 years   so Patrick you said that the internet cannot  replace the vital in-person localized functions   of the church can you be more specific about what  those functions are oh yeah I mean I I find that   tremendously easy you cannot watch a live stream  and tell me you're having the same experience as   standing shoulder to shoulder with someone now I  want live streams we have shut-ins and people at   pla they cannot access our services if we don't  put it online there are people who come to our   church who've never walked inside a church they're  terrified of doing it and so they just want to see   what's happening on a screen before they come  in for all those reasons I love it you know if   you're on vacation you want to watch church I mean  there's worse things you could do on vacation than   watch Church however watching church is not the  same thing as worshiping alongside other people   hearing their voices together now again I I want  to be cautious though because the minute you walk   into the most traditional Church in Birmingham the  minute you walk in that church you are surrounded   by radical technology we don't think about it  that way but once upon a time people didn't sit   on pews Once Upon a Time creatures weren't up  in pulpits Once Upon a Time they didn't have   hymnals they knew the songs and so their eyes  were up they weren't down inside of the book   they weren't sitting down they were standing up to  hear they didn't have sound amplification when you   started thinking about the radical Technologies  they're right inside those cars that are outside   you just have to walk to your church and now  you can drive wherever you want to and so we   have all these other analog Technologies there's  air conditioning I mean yeah that I don't want to   get rid of that all of these Technologies are  present in every single church and I only say   that to say look when you're watching it on a  screen something very different is happening   I want to acknowledge that and yet I don't want  to be overly skeptical or or pretend as though   what we see as being non-technological today it  was technological 100 years ago 150 years ago or   whenever those things were introduced so you do  have a live stream at your church yes I have a   good deal and you are discipling people to tell  them this is a lesser experience well you know   so I actually really hesitate to start telling  people that it's a lesser experience and here   would be the reason why for that person again who  is because you kind of just did say that well I'm   saying it here right so if I'm talking to a friend  of mine who has been going to the church for 10   years and he's telling me hey you know I'm done  going in person I love watching in my pajamas I'd   say hey that's that's great I'm sure it's awesome  watching your pajamas you need to come to church   but if I'm talking to a college student who's  never come to a church before and he tells me have   been watching your church on live stream for the  last month I don't go hey you know that's great   you really need to cut that out because that's not  the real thing you know or if I'm talking to the   shut-in who literally can't come I'm not going  to say to them and so we're cautious up front   because we want to have a space for process but  again we have designed our entire technological   apparatus to get people inside the doors what  we do in our newsletters on our blogs on social   media we have shown time and again that is  that is the top lead generators the thing   that's bringing most people to our in-person  events and so again we've designed a structure   we've subverted the structure of what's Happening  social media we designed it to bring people in   person and and we've seen it work and so because  it's working as we're seeing people show up we   feel confident that we don't necessarily have  to broadcast don't just watch the live stream   do you think it would be different for the church  that did everything same philosophies but decided   instead of live stream we're going to record  Put it on the next day with all the same values   uh you know that's an interesting question I mean  there's there's nothing different for the person   who's watching it except for when they can watch  it and again because I think people want to be a   part of church on Sunday morning again I think  of the challenge of thinking of the people who   wouldn't realize I can watch Church afterwards uh  for all those reasons I would want to keep it on   on Sunday mornings uh and again I think there's  perfectly good reasons for some people to shut   off the live stream but I don't want to live in  a city where there's no church with a live stream   how does that land with you live the  live stream Centric conversation yeah   you know our church has a live stream which I take  a lot of flack for you know like oh the analog   Church guy has a live stream that was a a pandemic  and post-pandemic decision we made um I heard   another church leader recently say uh the live  stream or the online service whatever you want to   call it has become the new lobby of the church and  that is the primary and and really internally at   least the only reason we've kept our live stream  is that as we've tracked it and we have tracked it   um new people who actually walk through our doors  and show up in person they will say on average   that they have watched the services online between  three and five times before they ever show up   so we we've discovered okay not having an online  service or streaming the service in some form or   fashion would be akin to essentially destroying  our lobby and going parking lot right through   the doors into our Sanctuary which would be  an incredibly jarring experience for a brand   new person and it doesn't know where they  drop off their kids and all those sorts of   things so we've kept our live stream service  but I will say we talk about it almost all the   time for the same reason the concern that we  also again we've measured this as well through   some some data we've collected from directly  from our people it is we we believe that it's   um it's having a formational effect on our people  and we do not know yet how to parse the two out to   be able to communicate to those who are not yet  with us and not yet comfortable being with us in   person this is for you and then to communicate to  those who are in their pajamas because it's just   far more convenient to sort of have church on  in the background while you make pancakes on   the on Sunday morning and then get ready for the  football game or something we want to be able to   communicate to them this is this is almost nothing  what you're doing is almost nothing there's a   reason some Churches call It On Demand that's  right that's right it's like Netflix you know   and you think about your Netflix queue you've got  400 different shows and movies and you watch two   minutes of the first one it's kind of boring and  you move on to the next and off it goes from from   the queue well that has a formational effect  we begin to think about church as content you   know and we the way we think about content in the  digital age now is that there is and always should   be an endless stream of options nobody nobody gets  Netflix because they have two shows they get it   because they have two million shows or whatever  the number might be and I think that that's of   deep concern to me so we're still navigating  those Waters and trying to figure it out   well in your defense we're not talking about  Cutting Edge technology and live streaming this is   something the church has been using and wrestling  with for 15 really some since the mid 90s if they   had the capabilities yeah the money so you're it's  not inconsistent with the argument you've been   making I am curious I thought his Roman Rhodes  analogy was really compelling so was the printing   press but the Roman roads stuck with me how did  that land with you it is a compelling argument I   will say um you know social commentators social  scientists Jonathan hate is one of them have re   written recently and compellingly in my view  as as I've seen it the difference between new   technologies in the digital age and previous  Technologies like Automobiles and Roads and the   printing press and such even television and radio  is that digital Technologies change so rapidly   that it does not give us the necessary time to  assess its full impact on culture and society   and I think that is the danger this would be akin  to if in transportation technology we went from   horseback riding to you know a car to the Tesla  within a matter of 12 years we just would not know   how as a culture and Society we need to adequately  you know consider all of the effects all of the   impacts we just wouldn't have the time and so I  think that's the concern that that the parallels   sort of are inadequate in my mind because of  the speed and the the rate which is why for me   my argument is not to become a Luddite run away  from technology again I'm not anti-technology   the argument is to go slow that it's okay  to go slow we need to create the necessary   space between us and the technology happening  all of the chaos sort of happening before us we   need enough space so that we can see the long  Arc of Technology story in the digital age so   that we can have again as God by his spirit moves  in us and gives us eyes to see sort of all of the   impact that that's unfolding how does that land  with you what are your thoughts I I will actually   agree with a lot of what you said and again my  point is not that we should be uh first movers or   that we should be you know right on the precipice  of whatever is coming next uh my point is that we   need to uh if you think about the digital world  as an infected body politic it needs antibiotics   you have to do something to solve the problem  and again this goes back to Sherry's mom but   we are on the precipice right now of artificial  intelligence that's going to radically change the   face of how information works we are really one  generation away and generations as you just said   are becoming very very short so we're probably  talking two years from the ability for someone   to take a story write it into a text box press  enter and then the AI produces 300 different   news stories based on what you put in there that  look very credible that can be spread across 300   different websites by these same troll Farms that  have been talking about and so determining what's   true and what's not true is really difficult we  are currently at the point where I can type into   text box something that I want to see on a video  and all of a sudden it's there so artificial   intelligence as it's changing things it's going  to make our ability to discern what's true what's   not true all the more difficult and so the mission  I think pastors have to have is they have to now   be talking to Christians about hey one don't live  your whole life online I think it's an incredibly   important message but two the life you live online  you have to live intentionally but if I'm going to   tell you to live your online life intentionally  I better be giving you the stuff you need   to live that intentional life I think about  churches at a church called Quorum Deo that   does a midweek podcast where they discuss what  happened inside of the sermon that's just for   their people at their church it's a wonderful way  it's just like in the old days when a pastor could   walk around the town and visit with everyone and  see how they were doing if we can create podcasts   and content that they can actually go and engage  with and choose to trust over the fake stuff over   the news pundits over all of the trash that's  constantly coming into their feet if we give   them the good stuff there's actually a chance that  we not only will be discipling throughout the week   but that they won't be discipled by all this other  things I'm just maybe I'm a overly realistic or or   too pessimistic I don't I think if our goal is  let's really get people off the internet more   I mean I just want to say good luck I mean good  luck to myself let's get them off the internet   more yes let's try but let's also give them  what they need to be healthy on the internet   so Patrick one more for you Jay uh mentioned  that quick adoption of technology has harmed the   church's witness in some cases and certainly we've  seen Reckless usage of social media by Christians   and how that has harmed Witnesses in certain  ways how do you respond to this is the missional   potential of Technology greater than the possible  reputational risk well I suppose it depends who's   behind the keyboard if we're going to be honest I  I agree there are Christians who are doing great   harm the way these non-neutral Technologies are  designed right now is is the the companies want   to keep you on their platforms and the way they do  that is by giving you emotionally engaging content   in particular outrageous content content that  causes anger and that means that the algorithm is   going to prioritize content that's extreme and so  what's happened right now is that the Christians   who are causing the most harm they actually don't  know how to use the internet they just have a nice   algorithm that's highlighting their stuff it's  lifting it up to the surface where everybody   should be able to see but they don't know what  they're doing they're just being outrageous and   of course yes that causes that causes harm to to  to the church it causes harm to Jesus reputation   and our community but that's why it's so key right  now if we who are not living in those extremes but   want to be thoughtful when some charitable  kind have a different face on the internet   if we can figure out how to use those algorithms  as they stand right now and get our content in   front of people instead of that content when these  algorithms change and they are constantly changing   and the day will come when the outrageous  stuff gets pushed down in fact that's where   everything is headed at the moment the people  who have figured out how to give good content   in the existing system they'll be elevated up to  the top and again the goal here is not creating   celebrities I think or I pray what's going to  happen is is tens of thousands of very small scale   platforms reaching broadly their local communities  using the internet and again we're already seeing   some of the stuff begin to pick up so yes there  are risks yes the algorithm takes those worst   people and brings them up but no I I don't think  that that outweighs the need to figure out how to   work in this new environment hey I've talked to  a lot of pastors who have in 2020 and 2021 had to   take the biblical peacemaking discipleship skills  that they had been teaching in normal life and   begin to say oh we've got to apply this to social  media use because we have people getting in fights   publicly inside the church about all kinds of  things these days I read an article in the Orlando   Sentinel last year that said the average attention  span for an American adult has dropped from 12   seconds in the year 2000 to 8 seconds today making  officially making our attention span lower than   that of a goldfish nine seconds which if you watch  Ted lasso might be interesting to you this lower   attention span is directly linked according to  this article to the rise of devices in our hands   so if that is the context that we live  in what implications that does that have   on discipleship do we need to adjust to that  new reality or do we need to push back on it   can I say yes all of the above I I think I think  we do need to push back on it and one way we push   back on it by the way is by creating substantive  long-form content that people can engage with if   you want people to have longer attention spans  you're going to have to give them some stuff   that's has a longer attention span required on the  other side I think we're already adjusting to it   short form content is the King on Instagram it's  a king on Tick Tock it's the King on YouTube and   you're seeing more and more Christians adjust to  that reality now on one level we might say how in   the world can you make the gospel that that small  that short and most these videos are longer than   eight seconds and yet I see the other potential  there are a lot of Christian tick talkers who   are doing some amazing things I I just met a guy  the other day who had no connection to church no   connection to Christianity but he watched  this Christian tick tocker and he liked it   and the algorithm is it's designed to take you  down whatever Rabbit Hole you want it gave him   another Christian video and then another and then  another and another and within four months he's at   a PCA church this guy never thought about Jesus  before now I'm sitting there thinking praise God   those Christian tick-tockers were on there to  take him down that rabbit hole because if they   weren't he'd be going to a very dark place so yes  let's do long form yes let's try to help people   extend their attention spans and yes let's do the  short form stuff too if that's where they're at I   mean where would the Apostle Paul be I I I don't  know if we'd be on Tick Tock it's kind of hard   to imagine but I kind of Wonder you know the the  tick tock to the Romans what would that be like   you could ask him one day I'll ask him one day I  think he would be there though communicating and   reaching people in the digital Babylon he would  figure out a way to share the gospel with them   on their areopagus even though it's something  that we might feel really uncomfortable with   do you have any response or agreement disagreement  to that yeah I mean I think the design of   social media platforms like Tick Tock  and increasingly so where Instagram and   YouTube and Facebook where they're headed it is  getting shorter and shorter the attention span is   decreasing and I find that really problematic and  I'm you know Patrick you said something earlier   that that I found really interesting that  if something is sick you need an antibody I   think where what we diverge is I I'm I'm sort of  interested in why we're sick there and is there   the possibility that we can live in a place where  we're not as sick just not exist in so again not   a Luddite I'm not you know under the guise of  everyone's going to throw at their their phones   and not have the internet or anything like that  I just think that you know our sort of content   information diet needs to change our consumption  needs to change the other problem with that is I   think the way these platforms are designed  mind the lines between Creator and consumer   get really blurred I think that's why it feels so  social in some ways there is always the constant   possibility I could also be a Creator and I think  in some ways that can inherently pull out of us   um you know really ungodly nature that that  just is going to work against our formation   into Christ's likeness so yeah I think you know  would Paul be on Tick Tock maybe he would but   he certainly could not pen Romans on Tick Tock  you know there wouldn't be enough time and there   isn't enough space for the necessary Nuance in the  breadth so you talked about the fact that you know   people who are you know in your Camp here they're  going to feel left behind there's going to be a   fear of missing out there just will be so what  do you do to Pastor your people through that fomo   and let them feel okay in that yeah I think the  first thing I would say is relevance matters less   than you think it does what matters more and what  matters most in pastoral Ministry whether you're   actually a pastor at a church and now serving on  staff or not just as you as a follower of Jesus   Pastor people Rapport and relationship at the end  of the day is what really matters you know when um   someone's husband is dying they're not going to go  to YouTube to look for a video to encourage them   they're going to call the person they know the  person that can show up at the hospital you know   you can't share a meal on Tick Tock no matter how  much you try so that's what I would say you know   you are where you are for a particular reason God  has given you the gift of your proximity and the   calling primary calling is to serve that proximity  and the people within your midst really well   Patrick you brought up AI so AI is quickly is  a quickly developing technology what are the   principal principles we need to have we need to  sort out to have in place in order to navigate   questions about how much AI can justifiably  provide help in pastoral work writing the   sermons doing the research care coordination  communication because of the story you just told   about one use of AI could you know you write up  something and put your theology out there and say   what kind of book you want to preach through and  all of a sudden all the sermons are printed for   the year yeah I mean it's actually quite feasible  to imagine someone typing in uh write a sermon on   Romans 12 1-2 and the style of Jake ham and all  of a sudden it's read Jenkins books and it just   wrote you the Jacob sermon that you wanted to  preach of course those are interesting ethical   questions that we're going to have to explore it's  not plagiarism it's also not actually your work   and there's a long history by the way in past  fostering of people using you know prefabbed   outlines this has become a debate even right now  a bunch you know what what what what qualifies as   a as a sermon that's done in the right way the  wrong way so you know I don't know if I have   any principles at this point what I would probably  change the question to saying the threat of AI is   not you know what happens when you're whoever does  your your images starts you know using artificial   intelligence to create video it's like that's an  interesting question can you put those videos on   your screen is that somehow wrong I don't know  I think the far more important question is how   are we creating the antibodies inside of the  people in our churches to be able to identify the   misinformation and disinformation that's going  to be created by this artificial intelligence   and maybe of equal importance is realizing that  artificial intelligence isn't in the future when   we talk about the algorithm we're talking about AI  these are neural networks they are machine nodes   that are that are studying you that are creating a  model of you so they can sell you to companies so   they can sell you goods and so they can prep you  to buy those goods we like to think that we're not   not you know fifth graders who wouldn't would be  able to resist if someone was nipulating us but   we can't the AI is already at work manipulating  how we think and what we do and so that's this   is why I say it's so critical both for Christians  to create content that can be engaged with online   but also for Christians to understand how those  algorithms are working and use them for good   I I again I've seen tremendous story tremendous  things happen of people's lives being transformed   by Christians who use those algorithms to reach  people who were far from God to reach people who   are de-churched to reach people in different  countries I mean right now the Iranian church   is exploding and the crazy thing is if you talk to  someone in Iran who's become a Christian you say   hey who discipled you there's a high chance they  got discipled on Zoom that's how it's happening   and if you want to find out how they heard about  Jesus again it's happening through a lot of this   technology and so that's why for me it's like  yeah we can talk about how is AI going to affect   what's happening inside the church doors the far  more important question is not what's happening   in the church what's happening outside the  church because guess what that's where most   of our people spend their lives and their days  if we aren't there and if we don't know how to   use it we've given up so Jay you talked about  the danger of embrace racing technology too   fast Patrick you said that we're not in danger of  doing this because we're so far behind so I just   I I want I sat yesterday and I just I wanted  to make a list of really how much has changed   in 20 years just just to really just flush it  out myself and I'd love for you to hear y'all   do two things as we finish I'd love to hear just  how you process the church going through such   big changes so more a heart level not necessarily  picking apart each each of these and then second   I'd like you to tell me what's next on the horizon  do you think for the church to have to battle   so in the last 20 years the world of Bible  distribution has fundamentally changed with Bible   apps and smartphones words of songs are mostly  on screens now and hymnals are disappearing every   church has a website explaining who they are and  what they believe people can click a map on that   site and know where to go and how long it'll take  the world has access to both great and heretical   teaching in a way that it never has before through  podcast apps to YouTube in the palm of our hands a   skilled Communicator preacher can now be made into  a live hologram and preach in dozens of places   at the same time maybe never even seen the people  they Pastor giving has gone mostly online zoom and   other sites now allow instantaneous communication  with missionaries to your Iran Point missionaries   now get to talk with family and friends back  home mobile kid check-in and training cell phones   Facebook and text messaging has made a pastor  available at all times I can't imagine being   a pastor before a cell phone through websites  like take them in a meal we can now organize   in minutes ways to provide for families in need  that would have taken hours or days 20 years ago   through online curators social media and podcast  pastors with any visibility at all experience more   scrutiny than they ever have before social media  algorithms are targeting our people with extreme   views of church and culture through those same  mediums abusive leaders are exposed more than   ever before the church can now stay in touch  during a pandemic people can now stay at home   and worship without being connected to anyone  we've talked about that Seminary education which   we haven't touched on is now globally available  and accessible seminar

2023-03-17 00:26

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