Fireside Chat with the Xperts: Mike Konrad from Aqueous Technologies.

Fireside Chat with the Xperts: Mike Konrad from Aqueous Technologies.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome everybody, to another Fireside Chat with the Xperts. Here again, with Dr. Bill Cardoso. We have a special guest with us today. Mike Konrad with Aqueous Technologies.

Welcome Mike. - Thank you, good to be here. - Yeah, good to have you. We're big fans of your podcast, so, I'm very happy to have you, have you on with us. - Well thanks. - So, maybe you can give a quick introduction of yourself, your technology and your company, what you guys do.

- Sure, well again, Mike Konrad, I founded a company called Aqueous Technologies, in 1992. We build cleaning equipment for the electronic industry. Basically post reflow cleaning of circuit boards, flux removal, other contaminant species removal, stencil cleaning, ionic contamination testing, anything to do with that. We're a pretty narrow-focus, we're not a very broad company.

We offer cleaning and cleanliness testing. That's pretty much our core competency. I started in the, in this cleaning industry, in 1985. And, that's very sweet Bill. That was, kissing your kids to go off to school.

- Yeah, she went to the dentist. - Oh, that's sweet. - So came to say goodbye. - That's sweet. Make me miss my grandchildren. (chuckles) So, when I started this industry in 1985, and worked for a company, developed their cleaning line. They were a soldering company, soldering equipment company.

And I worked to develop a line of cleaners, because the rumor was, that cleaning was gonna, become more required. Turned out to be the opposite (laughs), so much for my prediction skills. But, there was a treaty, in 1989 called the Montreal Protocol. And that treaty would, would ban the solvents that were gonna be used.

1,1,1-Trichloromethane, free on TMS, that were being used to clean circuit boards, and it would be a ten-year phase out. Because of the CFC issue and ozone depletion, and all of that a big environmental treaty. And my thought was, "We need to get into the water-based cleaning, the aqueous-based cleaning side." 'Cause the solvents are all going away, which was true.

However, necessity being the mother of invention. No-clean flux was introduced. So, instead of everyone switching over to aqueous, to water-based, a lot of the industries switched over to not cleaning at all.

And so our business back in those days, was mainly to military and medical and space, and, you know, high realm manufacturers. Because they clean regardless, they don't buy into the no clean concept. So, you know, as soon as we started the business, three quarters of our potential customer base kind of went away. And but over the course of the last 30 years or so, cleaning has kind of come back into vogue.

Because of things like miniaturization, boards are getting very small. The space between conductors is, is microscopically small. And, it turns out that the smaller the gap, between the cathode and anode. Between the conductors of a board, the less tolerance for residue, between those places. That, that if you want to put things close together that gap has to be cleaner, than if you have them farther apart.

So, we cleaning has come back into vogue again, and we're rocking. And I'm sure every other cleaning equipment company and cleaning chemical company, is rocking right now too. As of all of the things that I've mentioned. And then IOT is a big friend of ours because, you know, internet of things.

We're putting electronics into things that we've never had them in before. And then dragging them outside with us, and harsh environments are really good for the cleaning business too. - Yeah.

- Because the harsher the environment, the more it reacts with any residues that are left on the board so. Anyway, a very long answer to your short question. That's what we do at Aqueous. - That's what we specialize in here.

(crosstalk) - Trick questions? - The whole half an hour on one question, (men laughing) Yeah. - Bill and I worked together on the SMTA board. So, I think we are aware of each other's propensity to... (laughing) - Exactly.

- Keep talking. This is a three hour show, right? - This' a three hour show. Well, this is part one of, you know, I think we're starting series, you know. - There you go.

- Let's pitch to Netflix, maybe they'll pick it up. - There you go. - And might as well. - But like the, like, like my, you know, talking yours, actually interesting. You, I'm very, you know, I'm fascinated by entrepreneurial stories, right. And you have a very interesting story of how that spark happened, right.

To start Aqueous. Because it's a special feeling, right? To start something from nothing basically, right? So my spark, your mind and then developed to what's today, the clean equipment company in the world, right. which is Aqueous share with us that, the feeling, right? When you said this is yes, I'm gonna start my own company. Turn my own path to where you are now, right. Sitting and being the key player in this, in this market. - Well, yeah, I've had a lot of time to reflect on that.

And I enjoy speaking to college students on the same subject. I think you have done that too. In fact, I was invited to Dartmouth college last year, to talk to their graduating engineers.

And I love talking to them because they're, they accept everything, they're there everything's possible. Right, they we get jaded over the years like we do. But back in 1985, I said, I was working for that soldering equipment company. I developed their line of cleaners for them. And I had a conversation with them.

I said, "We really need to get into cleaning." And they went, "Nah, no, we don't need to be in cleaning, we're soldering equipment company.". And I, I'm pounding the drums and I'm having this little tantrum.

I'm like, "We really need to get into cleaning." And they said, "No, they're not interested." So finally, I made a deal with them. I said, "Okay, I feel so strongly about it."

"I'll develop the equipment on my time." And I'm kind of clever, you know, I'm not, I'm not all that clever. But I'm clever enough to get it started.

And I know some clever people, and we can collaborate. So long story short, I, I, I put a machine together. We brought it to them and, we agreed that we would set up the side company, and build the equipment at night, sell it by day. - Wow. So, it was my equipment, kind of licensed to my employer. And, that was a great idea, except, I was not as good at building equipment as I was designing it and selling it.

So, it, it became pretty apparent with long lead times that, you know, I'm not in the manufacturing business. So, I sold the equipment. I sold all the rights to it, to my employer, for basically my costs. Can't say I was a great business person back then but I sold it for my cost. And I was just happy 'cause I thought naively that, now my employer is gonna be more successful. So, I'll be more successful.

- Yeah. And then, and it was a, it was a big success. We, we were selling tons of these machines. And I had this, I was in my thirties, and I had this naive perception that I'm, I'm a bad-ass now, you know. I'm, I saved the company.

And it was me, me, me, me, me. And, and I thought that the next time we had a product development meeting, that I would, you know, be carried in on a chariot. - Yeah.

- Be fed grapes and fanned with you know, all that hail Mike thing. - Hail to the Master. - Exactly, exactly. So, they said, you know, "Mike, what do you think we should build, you know over the next few years?" And I came up with another cleaner idea. This one was going to be closed loop, no drain. And, and they went, "Eh," and then someone else came up with a dorky idea.

And they went what the dorky idea, in my mind. They went with the dorky idea, like I was pissed off. I was just, absolutely furious and, and offended.

And, you know, and, and then I started thinking, "Well, wait a minute." "If this is such a good idea, why am, why do I want someone else to pay for it?" This is such a good idea, I should do it. And, and I had a talk with my wife and, a look through our bank account, which wasn't good.

And I thought, "Okay, well, if it's, if it's really a good idea, if I really believe it." "I'll find a way to do it." So I, I wrote a business plan, and took it to a bank. And naively thought that, because I have a business plan, they would listen to me.

And they were kind enough to listen to me, and then send me a rejection letter. As did the next bank, and the next bank, and the next bank. - You're kidding, they didn't just give you a stash of money? After you showed them your amazing business plan? - Expecting them to fill it up.

Right, but they, .yeah I left empty, empty handed. So, - That's insane. - At some point, you know, I raised the money. You know, credit cards and family and, and lots of promises and, and gave my notice. And said, "Okay, I'm ready to do it myself.". And, two months later, after I signed a lease on a building and we were developing the first machine I got sued, by them, by my former employer. - Of course.

- And it turns out they didn't like the idea that I was going to leave and compete. So they sued me, and we went to trial and, we won on everything. And even were awarded some of our attorney's fees back, which we never got. But anyway, and that was the beginning.

And then I started, now I look back and I'm like, what are the skills that an entrepreneur has? What are the attributes of an entrepreneur? And one of the attributes is, a very terrible sense of risk. - Yeah. (laughs) - Everyone would look, you know, a hundred people will look at this and go, "Nope, nope, that's nope." "Not gonna do it." And an entrepreneur will look at it and go, "Well, there's a one in a thousand chance it could work."

"Let's do it." Right? - One in a thousand. It's not zero, right.

- It's one in a thousand, - Not bad. - There's one there, right? Someone's gotta win right? It's like the lottery, somebody wins. So, I think we have a terrible sense of risk.

And, and, but those skills that are absolutely required to start a company. Absolutely required. A lousy assessment of risk and, and, and kind of a tunnel vision and passion, and all those things.

Without those, you can't really start a company. And you know that Bill, 'Cause you've, you've done the same thing. You've on, you're on the same path. - Yeah. - And, but those same skills though, if you don't modify those skills, will kill your company. - Exactly.

- Because you can only sit at a, you can only sit at the, at the poker table in Vegas. For so many hands before statistically, you're gonna lose. You know like Kenny Rogers, you gotta know when to fold.

You gotta know, you know, and I think those skills help you, but they will kill you. And to me, you're a motor head Bill. So, you know, every once in a while. If I don't run my old 68 Mustang for a while, I have to throw a little starter fluid, you know, down the carburetor.

And then run, run and turn it on real quick, and, and start it. I think the skills that entrepreneurs have are like starter fluid. - Yeah. - You can start a car on starter fluid, but if you run it on starter fluid, you burn the valves. You know, everything will just kind of blow up. So, that's the, I think that's the path I ended up ultimately on.

Is realizing that my start-up skills, are not my sustainability skills. And they're good for start and growth, but they're not good. They're good to get you off the line, but they're not good to sustain you. So, it's been a journey of learning new skills. Learning how to manage risk, learning you know.

It's all risk, no guts no glory when you start a company. But if you keep that up, you're going to lose that company. - Yeah, it's... - Companies fail.

- Exactly. It's, it's a good point. It's not, you know some people say that entrepreneurs are, a risk adverse. And I never liked that concept, or I'm not a risk adverse, but they like risk right.

They're not risk adverse. And I don't think it's lack of, of, of, you know, it's not the fact that we're not risk adverse. We just ignore it. Right? We just, you look at the risk and you say "You know what, we'll figure a way out." And I think you've, you've done a phenomenal job growing Aqueous.

By understanding your visionary position in the company, right? The guy who, who sees the, you know, beyond the horizon. And I mean, in, in, in with that, you know, you have an amazing operator, you know John. Joel Hall, who's, who's been doing a phenomenal job. Which, and then I'd really love how you've been growing that educational component, right. For Aqueous, and you know, much like we do. I mean, you, we don't sell by, you know saying how amazing our wares are, but educate people.

And like you said before, you hope that an educated, educated person, makes an educated decision. You know and hopefully it's going to be our products. But I mean, you have an amazing podcast, you know, Reliability Matters. I just saw over 11,000 downloads. I had no idea you had such a big family. So, congratulations.

(laughter) - I didn't either. That's a little scary. you know, when I started... (cross talk) - Reliability Matters, what is that about? And how long have you been doing that? - Yeah, I started a couple of years ago. I enjoy playing with new platforms.

Usually, before they're quite ready for prime time. Like we started doing webinars more than 10 years ago. You know, back when it was I'll go to meeting and, and. - Yeah. - Webex.

- Yeah, I mean, they were terrible. Some still are, but terrible. - Yeah. - And you know, you would drop off halfway through. You couldn't tell how many people were watching, in the early days. You talking into the blind basically.

Had no idea if there was anyone on the other side, which is a whole skill set. That you know, you're, you're aware of that. When you're talking, when you're looking into a camera and you're not looking into someone's face.

It, you have no visual cues and things like that. So, it's a whole different skillset to learn. - But to be fair Mike, even when I do live talks, I don't have anyone to talk to. So it's, I've been used to that for a long time.

(laughter) - Right, exactly. Well that's, yeah. We all talk to ourselves at some point right? But the, the idea of the podcast came to me because I started listening to podcasts. I'm like, "I love this technology.",

because you can listen to it in the car. You can listen to it on a treadmill, not that I'm ever on a treadmill. And, and you can start and stop. It's, it's very convenient. So I thought, "Well, you know, I'll try it.". And I went on YouTube, and took some lessons.

You know, some, some twelve-year-olds on YouTube taught me how to do certain technical things and bought a microphone and a few little things and, and called up an old friend of mine. Bob Willis, who's pretty well known consultant in our industry. - Oh yeah. - And I said, "Okay, I'll, I'll start with him." 'Cause he's well, he's better known than I am. And I'll interview him.

And he, he was kind enough to say, okay. You know, I had absolutely zero audience, 'cause I'd never recorded a show before. And, I recorded about an hour long show, with him and then spent days editing it.

To make it sound perfect and, and launched it. You know, we had one or two subscribers, and a couple of downloads, and then came up with the next one. And I thought that we were going to do it every two weeks. I made a commitment to do it on the second and fourth Tuesday of every month, that forced me to - Yeah. - Keep it going. - Yeah. - And I went through my, you know, digital Rolodex of contacts.

I've been in the industry a long time, as you have. And I thought, "Well I'll, I'll burn through, my list of friends and (indistinct) on to me" "And once I run out of my, kind of organic friends, then I'll call it a day." "I'll move on to whatever is next." And that was, that was about 70 episodes ago. - That's incredible. - So, it keeps going.

And now, you know, like you said, we just passed our 11th download, which just, just completely astonishes me. And, and I, you know, it's not me. I, I'm a good host, not because I'm a good host. I'm a good host because I'm rather ignorant on certain subjects.

And because I'm talking to subject matter experts, like you, you were a guest on my show. - Yes I was. - I don't know much about x-raying right. So, but you do, but I'm really curious about certain things. I love to find out how things work.

I'm a very curious person, always have been. When I was a kid, I used to get into trouble, because I would take my parents' appliances apart. The clock radio and, and whatever the blender.

And I would try and figure out how it worked. The reason I got in trouble, is I didn't really have a desire to put it back together, at least completely. So, - Yeah.

- My parents would always get mad because there'd be these things all in various states of, - Well, now a days appliances, right Mike, they always have more pieces they actually need to work, right? So, when you put it back together you're left over with like five screws, pieces that... - One of my, one of my favorite things, and this is what, where I really got in trouble. I would take a transistor radio, you know little nine volt battery. And then I, I would take a pair of snippers and snip off a component.

And to my shock, it still worked. I'm like, " We'll that was a wasted component.". Why did they put that in there? And then I'd keep snipping wires or, or leads until it stopped working. And I could snip five or, things off it. And it would still work. Now, you know, who knows, maybe noise filters and tenant gains.

You know whatever, whatever they were for. They, they had a purpose I'm sure. But to me, I'm like, "This isn't a waste of time.",

I could build a radio with half the components. - That's awesome. - Hence I got in trouble. But anyway, that, that curious mindset allows me to really learn about other subjects.

So, I talk about reflow with reflow experts. And DFM with failure analysis experts, and, and x-ray with x-ray experts like yourself. And profiling, whatever topic we're on that has anything to do with reliability of circuit assemblies.

I get to ask questions and, and it's a lot better than snipping off components. Right? I can just ask questions in a non-destructive way. - Yeah, so Mike, I just got a notice here from our producer. We don't have one. But anyway, he said a 10 000 for those downloads were from the x-ray episode, just so you know.

- I'll, I'll bet they were. I'll bet they were. I, I could look, but I, I let me look. Oh yes, you're right. - Exactly, exactly.

Now... - We should just have every, you should, we should just have you on the show for every episode, right? - Exactly. Yeah, that'll be a good way to stay at 11,000 episodes for awhile. Downloads. (Mike laughs) Now, so you, you are a forward looking guy, right? You, you try this platforms before, you know, they become commonplace, right.

You're doing podcasts before people knew, you know, industry right. They knew what podcasts were. - Within the industry anyway.

Yeah. I like the industry, yeah. I like to. - within the industry yeah. - I like to do things that other people aren't doing. - We, you know, with COVID and, and you know, shutdowns.

And you know, this 13 month long March that we've had. A lot of, there's been a lot of digital presence and a lot of stuff out there. So what's next, right? What's, what's, what's the next way to interact with people? To, to connect.

To, to have those conversations. What are you doing now, that nobody else is? - Well in the big world, - Yeah. - We're not doing anything that no one else is, because, you know, podcasts and virtual meetings, and virtual events are all pretty common now. Within our industry, we're still a little bit unique. It's ironic. I'm sure this irony has landed on you too.

That, for an industry that, that basically creates the future. We, much of our industry is still in the past. You know, in terms of how we, how we function, right.

We, we function archaically, in a, to produce things that are very futuristic, and high tech. But, we do it sometimes in a low-tech way. In terms of how we communicate. And that, that I think is part of the aging of our industry.

You know, a lot of people in our industry are, you know they call it the silver tsunami. You know, they'll soon be leaving the industry. They'll soon be retiring out. And for the longest time there it wasn't a lot of young blood like David and, and, and you.

You know coming into the industry. It was all, you know, it was all old guys and gals. And, and now we're seeing a lot of young blood coming into the industry. And, I think that will change the way we communicate as well. I think that'll the tech side of that will catch up. Clearly, you guys are doing this so, you know and other companies are starting to do it.

I don't know. I don't know what's going to be next. I do know that, I do believe that because of the pandemic, it normalized virtual communication. Much more, for the masses. Those of us that have been doing it for years, really didn't have a change. In fact, we had an advantage, 'cause we were ready to go.

- Yeah. - We didn't have a learning curve. But I think now that we can communicate, pretty effectively with customers. We can do virtual demonstrations, rather than live demonstrations. And they're not too far off, you know, the value. I think once the pandemic is over, many people will still be working from home.

And many people will still be doing virtual meetings. Because I think companies have, have started to enjoy the savings, - Yeah. - And the higher profits associated with not putting people on airplanes for stupid reasons. And, and not flying in to look at something when you can look at it on a screen with, you know, high-def cameras. And you know, good sound and good lighting, you know, it's, it's not a hundred percent of the experience. It's maybe 60% of the experience, but it's 0% of the costs so.

- Well, and then you, then get to have dinner with your family afterwards, right. So, that, that has some value right. - Right. You know, and, and you know, one of the side effects of the shutdown has been my grandkids, I have two grandkids.

They, they go to school. They always get sick at certain times a year. And then they share it with their grandparents, with my wife and I. And, and then, you know, we all go through this you know, germy, little kids, get everybody sick. Nobody's been sick for a year, - Yeah. - Because they're not, you know, for the longest time they weren't in school, they're in school now.

But they, no one's been sick for a year. And, and me traveling on airplanes, I, I used, I'm a road warrior right. I travel all the time and, and I'm, I don't get that. I don't get sick very often, but when I do, it's always after a flight, you know. - Yeah. - And you know, now,

now I, I don't have to sit in a germ filled aluminum tube, and, - Yeah. - And get sick. You know, I can, I can just look at a teleprompter and look at a monitor. And here we are, - How old are your grandkids? - Six and nine.

- Oh, great ages. That's, that's awesome. That's the best time. So, what would you tell them? Right, going back to Mike Konrad, a 20, you know, 22 year old, Mike Konrad.

What would you tell yourself, what would you tell your grandkids to, invest, to start a business, to do right now, knowing what you know. - Well, you know, I think if I gave a young me, advice of what I know now. I wouldn't have started a business.

Not because I regret it, at all. But the advice I would give, would be counter productive to starting the business. There almost needs to be this level of naivety. - Yeah. - Naivety is a skill in, in, in terms of starting a business because of you're aware of the risks.

And let's face it, the, small business administration says that, that 75% of all new businesses fail in 10 years. 75%. - That's a lot. - Now, now if you go to Vegas. - Yeah.

- And play roulette, it's very close to 50, 50. It's like 51, 49. It's actually a little better than that. So, even in Vegas, the worst odds are 50/50, right? - Yeah.

- And, if you go into business, there's a 75% statistical chance, that you're not going to make it. - Yeah. - And, look at what we do in business. We, we invest personally. Or we are responsible personally for, you know maybe a million or two dollars. You know, between inventory and accounts payable, and tax liabilities and, and, and and guarantees, that we've made on the lease for the building.

At any given time, any small business, you might be on the hook for a million dollars. And, if you net 10 grand at the end of the year, net. - Yeah. - Pay taxes on 10 grand, you think that's a success.

Now, imagine if you went to Las Vegas and you sat at a table, and you put a million dollar bet down. For the chance to win 10 grand, but there's a 75% chance you're gonna lose. You would never, - Never do it. - Ever sit at that table.

It's horrible. - Yeah. - The, the, the return is too low. So, I think, if we told that if, if 60 year old Mike Konrad, told 22 year Mike Mike Konrad, these are the odds. You know, particularly in your first few years, 22 year old, wouldn't do it. So there's, there's an advantage in not knowing what you don't know.

And, and the, like I said earlier, the skills that are required. I wouldn't call them really skills, there more like attributes. So, the attributes that are required to start a business, is this tenacity, is this, the ignoring of the risk. It's just the, the passion.

It's, it's everything that the blood, sweat and tears, that get a business going and keep it going. And hopefully, you're smarter enough. This is the advice I would give, realize that once you start a business and you get your first little taste of success, that's when you need to start changing. Because those skills that got you there, are gonna, are gonna be your demise. If, lead to your demise, if you don't change. So I, what I thought was, you know.

We've all gone through the stage. I don't know about you Bill, but I went through a stage where I was, starting to get a little bit of success. And I'm like, "Oh man, I'm the smartest man on the planet."

I, I did it. We're there. I can start cruising now, I can take my foot off the pedal. I don't have to look in the rear view mirror anymore. And you know, that's when you realize that business is like a video game. You just sit, you just pass level one.

Now you're in level two, and level two has more monsters, more trap doors. You start losing lives, you know. This whole thing, Jumanji kind of thing, right? - Yeah. - Everything gets harder.

- Yeah but the rules keep changing as well, right? The rules are not always the same. - Oh, they change every year. - Every level, there's new rules.

- Exactly. - And there's new ways to get you right? So, and that's when you realize, I think that, that business is not about starting. That's hard, but it's really about sustaining. And, and the other thing I would teach my younger self. Maybe not at 22, but maybe I'd hold this advice in a time capsule and tell him to open it in 10 years.

Is the concept of growth. I was led to believe, that you need to grow to survive. Grow, grow, grow, more sales, more sales, more sales. Well, you know, if you push your people for more sales, they're going to get more sales.

But they're not going to be profitable sales. And he's gonna bring in sales to keep, keep you happy. - Exactly. - And, and I think, you know, at some point we realize that, growth is not always good. You know, choosing your customer. Buying your customer, having your customer choose you.

By you, is really the way to do it. And sometimes the most profitable word in sales is no. - No. - We're not going to take that order.

And, and so, I think there has to be a really good partnership, between the customer and, and the supplier. It's not just a conquest thing. In the early days, it's a conquest thing. Yeah., we got that order. Now let's get the other one. And, and sometimes the most savvy thing that we can do, is let that customer go to your competitor.

- Yeah. - Because it's like a Trojan horse. - They'll destroy them instead of destroying you.

(Bill laughs) That's the wrong customer right. - Yeah. - So, I mean, but I don't, I think you have to learn that in the right timing. I think there's a sequence for learning those things. And if you have all that knowledge too soon, you'll never start. So it's, it's a, I'd liken it to the shifting of a transmission.

A manual transmission, you know, you can't start in fifth gear. - No. - Start in first, but you can't go fast in first. - Right.

So, you start in first. Which is just really high, high torque, high leverage. And then you shift in the second, and then you shift into third. And a lot of businesses fail, 75% of all businesses fail in 10 years, because they never get out of first or second gear.

- Yeah. - And, or they and start in fifth gear. And they need that high torque, you know, first gear.

So it's, - Before you get the clutch, right. - I'm trying to use as many automotive analogies as I can, because I know you're very into cars. - No, I get, yeah. What if we got to the clutch, right. And you go from first to second, in a very truncated and sometimes you kill the car right so.

- Yeah, yeah, exactly. - I love that analogy. - So. - Works really well. - It's a sequence to start a business.

It's a sequence. And, and every sequence works, at the right time. It doesn't work in another time.

- Exactly. - I think that's what I've learned. - Okay. Well, we are out of time so.

- Speaking of. - Yeah. - Yeah - Speaking of, exactly. I think we're over one question, David. I think we did great today. - Yeah, I think we got like two or three in there.

- Mike yeah, Mike, thanks so much, man. This is, this was awesome. We really appreciate it.

- Oh my pleasure, thanks. I've, I've, I've watched your fireside chat. And of course, you know, I, I am prepared to - (Bill laughs) Look at that. - Have a fire next to me. I was going to have this on the whole time, but I just thought it was moderately creepy.

(men laugh) It's li^ke an old man in a dark house, - Fire hazard. - Middle of a seance or something, so I'm glad I didn't stay with it. - And for you guys listening, check Reliability Matters. Really, really cool podcast from Mike, a lot of good stuff there. Download it and put in your iTunes and whatever you're listening to a podcast right.

- Yeah. - To get the new stuff. - And look up the Bill Cardoso episode. That'll really push us over to the next 11,000 so. - If you want to fall asleep or, you know it's a good for, you know, do sleepless nights.

Thanks so much, Mike. - All right, thank you, Mike. - Thank you. - Great to have you on.

- Thank you, good here guys. - Talk to y'all again soon. Bye.

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2021-04-01 04:22

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