Ep. 57 Chris Aguas, Founder & CEO, CoreChain Technologies
Welcome to Pitch It the FinTech Startups Podcast. One founder, one startup, one investor at a time. I'm your host, Todd Anderson, Chief Content Officer, FinTech Nexus. And Episode 57 I talk with Chris Aguas, of course, CoreChain Technologies.
is the only network built for scale and security on enterprise blockchain to streamline the exchange of B2B payments, transaction data and funds. You know, the B2B payments space overall, especially here in the U.S., is still very much using paper checks. In fact, Chris told me that 60% of the payments are done via paper checks. Chris and I discussed some of the issues behind B2B payments why moving to a blockchain based system will unlock more value for companies and B2B payments networks. We also discussed current market conditions and crypto fears that companies have when moving to or at least considering moving to a blockchain based payments network. Misconceptions around blockchain based technology, raising capital and a whole lot more.
I hope you all enjoy the show now. Without further ado, Chris Agnes. Of course, CoreChain Technologies and welcome to the podcast.
Chris, how are you? Hey, Todd, thank you very much. I am doing very, very well this afternoon. How about yourself? I'm doing well. So, you know, I like to start if you can give the audience and the listeners a bit of a background, you know, where have you been and what brought you to the idea of starting core chain? Absolutely. Absolutely.
So I have been a fintech entrepreneur and entrepreneurialism for the better part of the last 20 years. And during that time, I've had the good fortune to work in companies ranging from early stage startups when I've been where I've been a principal to later stage venture and private equity backed companies all the way up to the biggest players in the space spent eight years combined, first at Visa, then at MasterCard. But throughout my my tenure in the space, I've been really focused on the problems of business to business payments. And so in a lot of ways, my career over the last 20 years has been marked by what I'll characterize as the war on checks, where we, as the payments industry, are looking to displace the paper that still dominates on the business to business side, at least here in North America. And, you know, this is really a big problem as a payments industry.
I think we've done a great job over the last 20 years of taking the paper out of consumer payments. So if you're a consumer making a payment to your landscape or you have applications like Zelle and Venmo, if you're making a payment to your mortgage holder or your utility company, your online banking from your bank, and of course, if you're making a payment at the point of sale, you have your payment card. When was the last time you saw somebody write a check at the supermarket? Couldn't tell you. But on the business, the business side checks, believe it or not, are still the dominant form of payment settlement, particularly for small and even midsize companies. 60 plus percent of B2B payments in these sectors are still being settled by check. So this is something I've been going after my entire career and like I said, had the good fortune to have a wide variety of experiences with a number of different companies in the space.
But then in 2016, after I sold my last company, I started learning about distributed ledger technology, which of course is the foundation of what we call today blockchain. And literally the minute that I saw it, it occurred to me this is a technology that I think I can leverage to finally solve the problems in B2B payments in North America and get rid of PayPal. So to make a long story, short course chain is the outgrowth of my career in B2B payments and my discovery of blockchain technology and our efforts to merge the two to finally transform that space.
Now, if you before we get into, you know, kind of your core customers and a little bit more about coaching, a little bit more about you, have you always been on the path to be an entrepreneur? Was it, you know, something that I know you said you mentioned you sold your last company, but is it something that you've always had this passion about and that you'll always eventually get back to it, even after your time at both Visa and MasterCard? Or was it, you know, you kind of saw problems along the way and thought, no. One solving these. I'm going to I'm going to start some ventures myself. You know, it's interesting.
I think that, honestly, I come by my entrepreneurial DNA a by nature I have on both my mom and my dad's family side a long history of entrepreneurship. You know, my dad was a World War Two veteran. He was quite a bit older. But he, despite having never even graduated from high school, managed to live the American dream and carve out a very successful series of businesses when before I was born and then I was growing up. But allowed us to have that classic American dream middle class lifestyle.
And he did it through entrepreneurship. And on my mom's side of the family, my grandfather and my uncles have very similar stories to tell around building a middle class existence in America through entrepreneurship. So I literally started my first business when I was 13. My customer was my dad, perhaps not surprisingly, but that was an early outsource data processing business. And so, you know, beginning there, I've been undertaking entrepreneurial endeavors with some occasional stock through big companies.
I worked for General Mills, for example, and General Motors use aircraft in addition to Visa and MasterCard. I always seem to turn back towards the entrepreneurial opportunities because that's where I find you can solve really exciting problems. But tell us tell us a little bit more about coaching. You know, exactly what you guys do who the target customer is.
And while answering that, how did you come to the the name core team? That's a great question. In fact, I'll take the second 1/1 because I think I'll lend some insight into into how we go to market. So in banking generally, there's the notion of your central data processing environment. You know, the system that tracks accounts and transactions and account balances colloquially in the industry that's known as the core processing system. So this notion of core sitting at the center of banking and payments is a well-known term in the industry. And of course, as I said, since 2016, I've been absolutely fascinated by the notion that distributed ledger blockchain technology will let us tackle business to business payments in a new and different way.
So for chain is really the combination of that notion of poor processing with the addition of blockchain technology on top of it. So what we do today, we are a B2B to be your business to business, to business player. We power payments and financing, not for buyers and suppliers that are using our platform directly, but instead we go to market through channel partners, which are marketplaces, software platforms, ERP systems that have already established large networks of buyers and suppliers that are using their platform for some portion of the Commerce transaction lifecycle. And they want to add payments and financing capabilities to that platform without having to become payments and financing companies themselves.
So we essentially make our B2B payments and financing capabilities available to existing players with lots of buyers and suppliers so that they can go to market in those spaces without having to build all the infrastructure in the business, scratch. So I'd like to start, you know, digging into obviously a little bit more about core chain, but start from a place of kind of what's going on in the current market. Obviously, there's been a lot of chaos and bad news coming out of the crypto and blockchain space, some of it or a lot of it, I'd say you can probably lead back to bad decisions, not necessarily technology based ones, but more. People. People led decisions that have used the technology, you know.
So I don't think it's a technology issue, but it does give the impression that there is an issue with the technology, or at least that's the outside looking in as someone in the space. How does the current market impact, you know, greater adoption of what you guys are looking to build then and other companies that are in this space? And what does that mean to kind of this overall path to moving to a more blockchain based financial system, which is has shown to be cheaper, more transparent, faster than what we're currently in. But then you have this market turmoil that kind of throws it for a loop. And this is kind of a handful of times it's happened now. Yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. We obviously are big believers in the underlying technology of blockchain and distributed ledger, but the extent to which we feel like we should include that in our story to customers and partners has varied significantly over the last three years. In fact, just recently, our our leadership team has been having the conversation again, whether emphasizing the blockchain basis of our technology is helpful or hurtful in the current environment because you're right there, there certainly is a lot of turbulence, there's a lot of misunderstanding. And, you know, while it's certainly unfortunate to see that a lot of folks have lost in some cases very considerable sums speculating in the crypto markets, we honestly do believe that some of this turbulence is necessary for us to progress with this technology as an industry and get us to the point where widespread adoption can take place for using blockchain based mechanisms for value settlement and payments. You know, again, it's very unfortunate for folks that have taken losses in the crypto space, but the upside of that for us now is we have increased attention certainly within the G-7, among financial and monetary regulatory authorities, that blockchain represents a very promising technology, or at least a technology that's worthy of evaluation. Even here in the United States, we've had the White House come out with policy pronouncements around the possibilities for the future of blockchain.
We've had the Federal Reserve really for the very first time, commit to taking a serious look at the underlying power and capabilities of these technologies. And, of course, there's been much broader discussion among regulatory authorities around how to appropriately manage risk in the digital asset space. So we do think that that's a good thing. We ultimately think that, you know, where blockchain based assets and digital assets, tokens and currencies really start to take off is, once we have more clarity in the regulatory environment and some degree of regulation, we don't believe in a wild West scenario where completely unregulated and ungoverned assets can legitimately be used for commerce, at least among businesses know on the consumer side, there may be speculators, folks like that. Businesses have fiduciary responsibilities to their stakeholders, their customers, suppliers and employees around adopting sound financial practices.
They're not going to adopt, certainly at scale, a financial mechanism that doesn't have a corresponding degree of finality and certainty around it from both a regulatory and usage perspective. I.e., Can I use this product to settle value and have it work the way I want it to without any legal or other surprises and also some degree of stability in the currency itself.
You know, if you look back to the the Latin American debt crisis, back when hyperinflation was taking place in South America, the ability to use those currencies at that time because they were so volatile to settle B2B payments was a big problem. You can't have that kind of volatility in a mechanism you're trying to use for value settlement. So kind of a long way of saying a lot of pain. Now, this is kind of the second phase of the Gartner hype cycle. If you look at Gartner's interpretation for how technologies evolve, typically have an emerging technology and there's a big explosion of interest. Lots of good things happened during those early days, but lots of bad things happen.
There's usually an explosion and then an implosion, and then the process repeats itself with maybe a second wave of hype and a second wave of explosion and then implosion. But then by the time you get past that second explosion, which is where I think we are in the evolution now, this is where you start to see the serious uses of the technology emerge and where it starts to become mainstream. So that's where we think we are in the evolution of blockchain and crypto and digital assets. We think in 3 to 5 years we're on a path now where these are going to be very significant means of value exchange certainly in the business, the business world and likely in the consumer world as well.
Oh, how complicated is it to move from? You know, as you said, 60% check based to, you know, a blockchain based B2B payments system. You know, is it are we talking if I want to you know, if I have a network, like you said, of buyers and sellers that I want to move in this direction, how complicated would it be to set up? How long would it be to set up? You know how much you learn. I'm of a learning curve. Would that network have to to take on what would it look like to if I were to come to you? I have this network of buyers and sellers now that what would that process look like? That's a great question. So we think one of the keys to adoption of electronic payments in general and certainly blockchain based electronic payments is to make the entire process for both buyers and suppliers easy button, easy.
If there's a lot of business process change that's required, if there's development that's required, a project team has to be spun out in order to make a migration from one form of payment to another. You're just less and less likely, particularly with the mid-sized companies, we think our sweet spot to engage them. So instead what we do is we go with our partners to the surfaces and the experiences where their buyers and suppliers are already interacting with each other. And we embed our blockchain based payments and financing capabilities literally on the same screens that they're already interacting with.
And because our partner is typically the system of record or attached to the system of record, we can get the data that we need from them to deliver payments functionality. So we like to use the phrase easy button, easy after the staples, easy button. We think if we can deliver on onboarding process that is literally seamless. That's really not more than the matter of selecting some buttons or selecting some options in surfaces that you're already working with. With our partners that we can drive that adoption. And how long say, if I wanted to know, how long will it take? I mean, is this a matter of a few weeks? A few months? You know, what would it look like if I.
All right, I'm going to I made the decision. I'm going with cord chain. You guys are going to help me make this transition.
How long before we can start accepting payments? So that's a great question. So we have literally process on our platform today about 1.2 billion in B2B payment transactions since we started. And I'll tell you, the first one for the first buyer of our first channel partner definitely took a while, but we've gotten the process down. Now, having repeated that process again and again and again, where for a buyer and their supplier set to leverage our platform, we can start and have them up and running and processing transactions in time span of about 3 to 4 weeks. Now that's pretty fast.
What it's all based on the fact that we're going to where the customers already are and equally importantly, where their data already is, because one of the challenges in implementing new systems in general is getting access to the right data elements and being able to manipulate them. Because we go with our partners that are already storing that data. We have a huge step up in the implementation process. That's how we can make it simpler. What are some of the, I guess, missed conceptions you might hear or questions that you get if you hear from those that are looking to kind of move in this direction, you know, are you know, is is this safe? Is this, you know, should I be moving in this? What about volatility? I mean, is it these types of questions? What are the things that that people are asking you? Especially because I do find when talking to entrepreneurs and even various market participants, there's there's still a decent size education gap.
Some places it's it's small and it's it's, you know, kind of in the minutia of some of this stuff. And sometimes it's just very, very basic that people just completely miss misfire or miss the point of of maybe moving in this type of direction. What are some of the common things that you hear? You know, probably the biggest misconception that we run across is the notion that blockchain technology in general and crypto are one in the same and the same thing. And that really couldn't be further from the truth.
Crypto and digital assets are one utilization of blockchain technology, but the actual class of technology itself is much, much broader, kind of like and not different from the fact that the World Wide Web that we are talking via today on this podcast is one use, quote unquote, the Internet. But the Internet works in lots of different ways outside of the world wide Web. The same is true with blockchain technology. There's a lot more to it than just using it for crypto and digital assets, and that's actually how we use it today. So today the vast majority of our funds movement and exchange, we're not yet using digital assets because the B2B markets simply are not ready for them.
Instead, we're using blockchain technology for really three things. One is we're building a what I'll call a network topology. Essentially, we're embedding a one of our blockchain network nodes inside each of our channel partners to provide them services.
And then we're stitching those nodes together in a network of networks. That type of a network of networks topology is really hard to build using traditional and new technologies. You can do it. These, said MasterCard, for example, had done it, but it's really hard to build and even harder to maintain. Yeah, but blockchain technology inherently is a network based topology.
So what that means is it's much more adept at being deployed in that network of networks style than linear technologies. So that gives us a huge advantage upfront from an ease of development and maintenance standpoint. The second thing is the security aspect. So payments fraud, particularly on the business to business side, is one of the fastest growing categories of white collar crime in the U.S.
In fact, according to the FBI, B2B payments fraud is the fastest growing category of white collar crime. And the number one way that criminals are misdirecting or capturing funds fraudulently in business to business payments is by artificially manipulating account credentials. The routing numbers and account numbers that we're all accustomed to when we set up, even on the consumer side, say a payment for direct, direct debit or paycheck for direct.
So bad actors are manipulating those numbers, causing funds to be misdirected. And because there's so much latency in the system, by the time the fraud is ultimately uncovered, the underlying funds are long gone. But one of the beautiful things about blockchain technology is that it's cryptographically secured and tamper evident. What this means is that I can effectively guarantee to the constituents using our exchange that the account credentials that we're directing funds to are the account credentials that the supplier originally gave us, or if they have been modified, you'll know it because the checks on smoke match. So there's really no other technology that allows us to give that degree of security and tamper evidence around potential bad actors. So that's the second way we use blockchain technology.
And then the third is ultimately for digital assets. We do see a world where digital assets are used for B2B financial exchanges as well as for capital raising for lending. But that adoption at scale really isn't going to happen for another 3 to 5 years until there's the regulatory and the regulatory and other clarity that I spoke about earlier. What are some of the the biggest impediment do you see? Is it the regulatory clarity? Is it some of the market happenings today that kind of maybe say, all right, I'm going to I'm going to go back to wait and see before I implement things. Is there something something else that might impede that 3 to 5 year timeline? You know, we think it's a combination of things.
One is simply the time cycle that we operate here in the United States. From a regulatory standpoint, these things tend to take at least a single digit handful of years to go from concept to some degree of maturity. And that's in fact, that's been happening in the blockchain space already for about five years. But we think it probably has a couple more to go.
And yes, going back to what I was commenting on earlier, the Gartner hype cycle, we're in an implosion. We've seen a dramatic decrease in the value of a wide basket of cryptocurrencies. We're starting to see that some of the players in the space may have been bad actors, and there is going to be there will be criminal law enforcement actions being taken to try and right some of that. That's going to take a few years to play out. And we think during that time, at least for businesses, the notion of blockchain is going to have a bad they don't leave a bad taste in people's mouths, at least for purposes of value exchange. So, you know, the best thing that we can do to encourage the adoption of this great technology is to actually encourage this necessary shakeout to happen as quickly as it can and also encourage that the regulatory bodies to move quickly and not sit on their hands in terms of figuring out how we're going to deal with digital assets in the United States.
From a legal standpoint. What's the the biggest thing that you've learned about your own company since launching? GOORJIAN Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, I talked earlier about the fact that I've been both an entrepreneur starting companies and an entrepreneur as an innovator within larger, more mature companies. My last scratch startup that where I started a company took a company from concept and built it up into a real business, was actually over 20 years ago.
And I was curious to see coming back into the space as a first time and 20 years entrepreneur in the technology space, how different or how similar the environment might be to what I experienced 20 years ago with my last scrap startup? And the interesting thing is really not that much about how you started. Company has changed the need to identify a compelling value prop that solves a real problem, the need to sell an ecosystem on that, whether it's my co-founders, customers, investors, and on that in order to build an interest group. And then, you know, building up an organization that can actually build and address that.
A lot of that process I found is very, very similar. Even though 20 years have passed to what I experienced before. But one thing that's very different is early stage capital access. So there are probably two orders of magnitude more just from a sheer number standpoint of potential capital sources for an early stage company like Fortune compared to what was available in the market 20 years ago. And certainly that's a good thing.
And we've taken we've done our best to take advantage of that since we started three years ago. The best piece of advice you've received since starting coaching? You know, I think the best piece of advice I've received is the notion that make sure you're solving a real problem, that you really, really, really understand. So you know, I think what that really says to me and, you know, it's true from my own experience, is that entrepreneurs are most successful when they deeply, deeply, deeply understand a problem that they lived themselves at all. Three of the companies that I've started from scratch, including courtship. That's been true for me. I think it's really difficult for somebody that doesn't have the real depth in a problem to find the magic solution to it, especially with so much competition in the market today.
So my advice to entrepreneurs and the advice I've received is pick a problem that you love and that you really, really understand and build a company around that. Tell us a little bit more about those around you and the team at Core Chain. Yeah. What types of people are on the team? What does the team makeup look like? Tell us a little bit more about those around you. Yeah, that's a great question.
So we're really, really fortunate that very shortly after I decided to start the company back in 2019, I was able to convince a handful of coconspirators to join me on the journey of trying to revolutionize B2B payments. So our chief technology officer, RJ Eric, was the first co-founder to join, and he joined literally when we started the company back in 2019. My second co-founder, Tom Rosemarie, joined a little bit later as our chief commercial officer, and since then we've gone on to grow that company to about 11 folks today. So we're still small, still early stage. The company is you know, it's really divided along two business lines.
We have our engineering team and then we have our business team with Tom leading our commerce. And then Maria Blodgett, who's our senior vice president of operations, who joined us a couple of years ago, leading the day to day operational side of the company. So we're a relatively tight knit group. One of the interesting things, though, is that since we started in the COVID era, at at the start of the COVID crisis, there were only a handful of folks in the company. RJ, myself and a couple of developers.
We've never been an on premise company. We have been a hybrid or really mainly remote company since we started. And it's been interesting to see.
I think we've done a pretty good job of building a cohesive culture as a company, even though we haven't had the opportunity to be physically located in the same place for an extended period of time. And that's been really, really interesting. And it also leads to a lot of questions now around what's the right way to go forward. We know we need to have some common space for people to come and spend some time together and brainstorm.
But does that evolve back into the, you know, five days a week in the office? Yeah, probably not. That's not really what anybody wants at any level, at least in our organization. So figuring out how we thread that needle and what's the right amount of time for us to spend in person since we are still a small core group versus what's productive for folks to be working from home like I am here today. That's one of the that's one of the big questions we have to answer going forward. But we do have a great group of committed folks who have signed on for the mission of making business to business payments easy, but an easy.
And to me, that's probably the most exciting aspect of the entire journey of core chain is building out and building up and pulling in a great group of people that are already doing some pretty amazing things. And also, you know, the culture thing also forces you to be a lot more intentional than than you might have been just living or working in an office with others. You know, there's there's constant thinking of, you know, I have to either write this down. There has to be a process in place. Someone can't just come over to my desk and watch me do something.
It's you know, there's a significant more intention to things than than there may be. There wasn't when we're all back in office as much. As we were sure.
So, you know, one of the things so we make heavy use of instant messaging. We are a microsoft platform company, so we use teams and zoom literally endlessly to stay in touch, not only with our external constituents, but internally as well. And we do something that I think is a little bit interesting. We have a daily stand up, not just of our engineering team, but of the entire company. We start at 10 a.m. Eastern time, which is good for us here on the East Coast for our partners and and teammates out in California.
It's an early day. It's an early day for them. Fortunately, they happen to be early risers, but the entire company gets on a daily stand up every workday and we just get together and talk and there's no formal agenda. But we share experiences. We talk about things that we're going to work on for the day.
And one of the most interesting things about that is that work groups tend to splinter off of that, you know, so I'll talk about a particular topic and someone will say, you know, I've been thinking about that, let's get into a separate channel after this and have a conversation. So we do we put some structure in place to try and facilitate the more spontaneous aspects that you would get if you were just sitting in the office together and you walk over to somebody and say, Hey, I was thinking about this. Let's let's get in front of a whiteboard. You mentioned earlier the one of the biggest differences 20 years ago to now was obviously the access to capital, significant more investors in the space, a lot more capital.
Obviously, some of that has pulled back the last 6 to 8 months. I think in many ways, early stage capital was probably more abundant than maybe late stage or mid-stage capital at this stage. But it's absolutely, you know. During in your IT, I think you guys have raised a little bit of money during that process. You know, was there something that investors probed or that investors asked that maybe you didn't think you know yourself and that you took away from it, that that was good. This could be super valuable to me.
How was that? You know, capital raising process and anything that you can tell, maybe a fellow entrepreneur that might be listening that you learned during the fundraising. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, just a little bit of background on us.
We've been through the formal fundraising process now a couple of times we raised one a quarter million dollar pre-seed round that we announced in August of this year excuse me, August of last year. And we just announced back in May the closing of our seed round. We raised another 4.2 million, so about 5.5 million raised across two rounds. Probably the one thing I would advise entrepreneurs and I know this is somewhat cliche, but it's absolutely true fundraising is an overwhelmingly work intensive activity. It is all consuming for and in the case of our company, it was all consuming for, you know, myself and our chief commercial officer, which you think on the one hand, okay, a couple of people are focused on that.
But then you think, okay, at the time we're seven people. So that means more than 25% of your available resources are focused on fundraising. So, you know, we had a great experience. We have for the most part had the same investor set in our pre-seed round and our seed round, both cases led by Loup Ventures out of Palo Alto. Great experience with them. I can't recommend them enough, but the process is still very, very time consuming.
So my advice to entrepreneurs that are undertaking the early stage funding process is plan on having to devote that level of resource. There's just no way around it if you want to get financing done successfully. And for me that was my biggest surprise. Tried to work around it found I just couldn't there are only 24 hours in a day and seven days in a week, so plan accordingly to devote a significant portion of your bandwidth to the fundraising process. But you know, I will say at the same time, there's a tremendous amount of learning that comes out of the fundraising process, you know, and we probably talk to in addition to our leads, we probably talk to a dozen dozen and a half other potential early stage investors for at least our recently concluded seed round. And the questions that you're forced to answer around strategy go to market use of funds are the intricacies of the revenue model.
They're all really, really educational and they force you to make sure that you really understand all the aspects of your business, or if you don't, to at least figure out what you don't know and be able to share candidly with your investors, Hey, we don't know A versus B on this particular aspect right now. We're not going to pretend that we do. Instead, what we'd like to do is partner with you. Get this. After we get this financing round done, let's figure out together how we solve this problem.
And answer is answer. Is it A or is it B? So we have just a few minutes left. I end these episodes a little bit lighter, a little fun. So do you have a favorite book and last book that you read? You know, it's interesting, haven't had since starting gorging really as much opportunity as I would have loved to devote to reading. But certainly the last volume that I've read, perhaps not surprisingly, is Steve Jobs by Walter Isaacson. Josh.
What do you do to kind of unwind, step away, take a few minutes to yourself? So very big into the outdoors. And we're fortunate here in the northeast to have a plethora of outdoor adventures for hiking, biking, camping, fishing, those sorts of things. I was a leader in Boy Scouts of America here in my hometown of western Connecticut for many, many years. So enjoying the outdoors and helping other folks, other scouts, other families to gain the benefit of spending time outdoors has been something that I've enjoyed, and I'm fortunate to be able to continue to enjoy it when I step away from my desk. Do you have a favorite sport or sport teams that you root for? Well, you know, we're kind of torn, I will be honest.
So having spent, you know, at this point the majority of my life in California, about half that was in the Bay Area. I'm still partial to the Bay Area team. So giants in the 40 niners. But I have to say that the East Coast teams, you know, particularly here locally, we have the Yankees and the Mets, not really the Giants and the Jets so much, probably more like the Yankees and the Mets definitely have some affinity. So I'd say at least here in our household, we kind of split affinity across a number of teams. Do you have a favorite vacation spot? I'd have to say it's Cape Cod, Massachusetts.
You know, the cape is just an incredibly beautiful area. It showcases some of the best of what nature has to offer. It's accessible from a hiking standpoint, from a biking standpoint. The Cape Cod rail trail is a fantastic biking experience. So I'm fortunate. I haven't been able to get up there in the last couple of years during COVID, but that is my all time favorite spot and I do hope to be able to get back there in coming months and years.
It is quite beautiful. I've been there before. And then final question. Biggest inspiration in life. I have to say that my biggest inspiration is really my family being able to demonstrate to my family and in particular my kids, both of whom are now post-college, being able to demonstrate for them some of that entrepreneurial DNA that they get from grandparents on both of their on both sides has really been an inspiration for me. And I'm proud to be able to share that aspect of myself with them and my immediate family. Well, Chris, I greatly appreciate you.
Give me a few minutes and coming on the show, if someone wants to find you, if they want to find caution, how do they do that? They just come visit us at our Web site at Fortune Dot Tech, and you can email me, Chris, at or Dot Tech. Chris, thank you very much for coming on the show, giving us a few minutes. Continued success for you and the team and hopefully we'll get you back some time in the future. Thanks so much. Good luck to you as well.