Empowering the Workforce: Insights from Michael Hui on Digital Training and Soft Skills

[Music] hello and welcome to Red's Business and Technology podcast I'm your host Jackson Barnes and I'm your co-host Brad Ferris I'm not a co-host Nigel hi today we're sitting down with the managing director of arowana Marco Huey Michael uh thanks for telling me on the show man yeah thank you for having me pleasure to be here all right let's set the scene on to what we're going to be speaking about today which has a bit about um what you've done the capital investment space and your journey and also the ICT training space but let's start with the background what did you do way before starting before what you do now yeah sure so I guess what was interesting is that uni I did it and law and so then went off and became a strange combination but went off and just became a very sort of normal lawyer Without Really applying much of my I.T skills and that's relevant as we sort of get towards the end point uh went into law always found the commercial side more interesting had grown up in family businesses uh and so enjoyed hearing about clients problems in that space But but less so dealing with the legal side of those I suppose and over time managed to find myself in a few more commercially focused positions and then ended up for a point in time running my own firm had a client arowana that I was doing some work with and after while they asked me to come on board help them out with a few things and then that sort of grew over time and I think it's been 12 years now that I've been at arawana and have sort of focused on a few different areas we for a while looked at some Venture Capital space but our more traditional mandate and what I focus on now is sort of lower mid-market Acquisitions and businesses that we can put together into platforms why did you make the jump from a law firm only Law Firm to Ohana why yeah um to be frank I just don't like dealing with the public and look client facing is is very difficult to have a lot of respect for people that can do that but if I was going to be solving problems ultimately I wanted to be solving I guess not my own problems but problems that were were part of the the organization that I was working for or contributing to cool mate do you want to dive a little bit deeper into Adventure code what you're doing with that yeah sure so adventureco is an investee company of arowana and it's a an education platform that we've grown over seven years now through a buy and build strategy primarily through Acquisitions so I think we've done now eight Acquisitions over seven years that started in 2016 uh in in June 2016 right through to now where we closed in acquisition in August and another in October in 2022 and so we've built a business now that is consisting of three divisions digital skills soft skills and future skills and mainly focused on the corporate training markets so B2B business but with an element of b2c as well all right well cool let's unpack that a little bit but um maybe we'll we'll start with uh if you want to introduce lumify which is formerly ddls anyone in the it space probably heard of them or done some training through them over the years I'd say from the listing I'm going to unpack who they are like size what they offer employees that kind of stuff yeah so so lumify is Australia's largest I.T training business and um the market for lumify is in Vendor certified training so we partner with people like Microsoft AWS Cisco all the sort of big technology vendors and framework vendors so when it comes to things like process itool prints two and things like that and we mainly cater towards I.T professionals so people looking to continue their progression through their career and to constantly upskill whether that's as they could gain more seniority in their position or you know new technology rolls out and you know their organization might be changing from on-prem to go to cloud or multi-cloud or whatever the case might be um yeah probably a lot of growth I'd say because we're saying the sure fair amount that it 20 years ago used to be very much you had one it guy who was across everything but these days it's getting so broad with you know cyber security Cloud networking app and endpoints and it's really hard for a small team to keep up and no doubt that means any a lot more training so surely it's a good future ahead there but do you want to start with I guess why I don't want to um bought lumify what what was the reason and why did you see that it's a good opportunity yeah I guess we saw a lot of strong Tailwinds as you just described in in the technology uh industry in the way that that was becoming more and more a part of just doing business and enabling businesses to grow and so you know the business when we acquired it had been part of a much larger systems integrator Dimension data and you know it was a small part of that very large business and so it wasn't really or didn't receive a lot of focus so we saw an opportunity to materially change and improve the way it operated but then also to move it towards writing some of these waves or Technologies they came through and so at that time this was about five years ago Cloud was really starting to you know Cloud a bit around for a while but we're really starting to gain acceptance and so um the business has always had a very close relationship with Microsoft but there was an opportunity then to expand that to AWS Google Cloud you know virtualization VMware people like that and keep keep growing that out okay uh I've got a lot of questions I wanted to unpack but um do you know much about you want to start first yeah so Michael obviously really respect the partnership and the friendship and you know everything we've worked together technology is something that you know is become ubiquitous in people's lives you've got unique skill setting that you've got legal and Technology um talk to us about you know what are the sort of the trends you see organizations with you know training technology due diligence you know we've um obviously worked together in a couple of DD projects but are you seeing any common trends that are leading towards why training and more internal upskilling is really really critical for the future yeah we all know and it's a it's a bit of a truism I suppose that the the pace of Technology change is just ever increasing uh and so therefore along with that comes a requirement to train people whether it's new people coming into an organization or them fundamentally changing something they're doing you know we see a lot of organizations have like been rolling out agile out or as I said moving still moving from on-prem to Cloud sounds remarkable but it's still happening and and the majority of of processing is still done on-prem right for most organizations around the world so we think that's got a way to run but now then you know all the talks multi-cloud private cloud and all this sort of stuff that's happening you guys would know much better than me so we've we've seen that wave in that way is continuing but then of late of course you don't need to be an expert to see everything about sort of cyber security risk that's then been going on uh and so the rise of cyber security as a training segment has just been remarkable over the last three to four years new vendors coming on basically into sort of a green field environment and so we've really had to build out a portfolio there and you talk about sort of specialization and you know some of these roles probably didn't exist two or three years ago right and you know I think the next one that's coming um is AI and the way that's affecting business and so yeah I think the importance is ever growing we see it in the businesses we own if I sort of go a little meta when we acquire a business you know we think the fundamental difference we can make at the sort of scale and size of businesses we buy is implementing that sort of digital transformation for the businesses and partnering with people such as yourself to help the business do that and the best example I can give is when we started acquiring education businesses we took a view that we wouldn't change any of the back end systems that they had in place because you know those projects can be a bit painful they're timely costly they never run on budget um but uh you know after a while we came to the view that we had all these sort of siled data with these archaic systems just because someone knew that system they didn't know how to use that system so we had no redundancy across the organization at all and to support all that was just becoming more and more difficult so we just ripped the Band-Aid off and said no no we're going to go to all common systems across the organization and we've got businesses that you know might have a revenue say four and a half million to businesses have Revenue 50 million within the group um so that sort of a have to be careful how we do that um but the way it's fundamentally changed our business is just remarkable and the data we can now get access to Big uses of things like power bi and the like um and the way in which you can then make decisions the way in which we can be more efficient in the way we run the business and then things we can build on top of that when new technology comes along we're not building on top of this really archaic thing that is going to be really difficult to support and really costly to build on top of so on that vein can I ask a question if there are three things you see is a common trait when you're looking for an opportunity to buy an asset or do some sort of deal what's three areas that you see business owners tend to be quite deficient in you know touch on Cyber Cloud all of that like bi what are the common Trends I think technology full stop so so quite often everyone's got an accounting system which is commonly zero so they're pretty set there and we ultimately move them to a more sort of sophisticated accounting system appropriate for the size of our business but accounting system is probably one they can they can take care of we've bought businesses with no CRM so you know see our each salesperson has a different system or a piece of paper or an Excel sheet or a word doc or a PowerPoint doc or a notepad doc you know so we've seen that so CRM is a big one you've got to be selling stuff to make money no erps or if they do you know very archaic erps and it can be hard because a lot of the systems that everyone hears about are really designed for larger Enterprises and they're very costly to roll out very costly to support um and then probably the third one is pretty much little to know thinking about the cyber security risk everyone sees it but no one really knows how to do it and you know basic basic stuff like multi-factor just non-existent sharing of passwords extremely common you know the old Excel dock with all the passwords saved in it pretty much every business we've bought has that yeah yeah not surprising we hear these and see these stories every day unfortunately it's really basic hygiene stuff yeah but you know you can't fault them they probably have a relationship with an MSP that probably just does the basic help desk stuff for them and they don't know what they don't know or might need and that MSP which wouldn't be red obviously but that MSP is not interested in really implementing any fundamental change in that business or advising them anything it's just sit back and hope they don't sort of move somewhere else I suppose well that's a big change that we're seeing everywhere and uh a lot of msps as you said pivot to just doing a help desk provider right get the monthly fee do the help desk that kind of thing and then cyber security that's like a whole nother too hard basket don't want to go there down the skill set don't want to employ subscript professionals which are so limited in Australia right so you know I think it's kind of getting to a point where almost a lot of businesses need a cyber security company of some kind engaged you know much larger like like we do here for our current managed customers and all having that as a service they provide but separate just for cyber security uh instead of relying on an internal I.T team I would just

focus on operations or an MSP who's got you know a couple staff focusing on keeping the lights on I agree so it is a worry right because everything you've just said is that you know you think about we want to do the best for our customers we want Australia to be such a great country and the economies to be strong but if you've got msps that are deficient in the fundamentals like cyber and then AI the waivers come in like what you're doing with lumify the training like that is essentially it's an essential service everyone has to embrace it to become better and uplift all of economies right the analogies in the law right in back in the day everyone just used to be a general lawyer everyone used to do everything things weren't overly complicated there was far far less legislation around you know you could just go and see a lawyer they can solve any of your problems or try to solve any of your problems it's no different now now that sort of all these technologies have proliferated all these new risks because with that new technology comes new risks you now need Specialists and so just like a law firm they'll have guys that work in commercial guys that work in corporate guys work in litigation some other firm will do the Crim stuff some other firm will do the wheels and Estates I think it's no different now in the I.T space so the flip side though I'm interested to get your opinion on this and what you see um we see a lot of on our end trying to educate Implement cyber security services and on the other side of the table people just don't have the appetite to spend the money and so communicating you know the risk reward um scenario has been I don't know is that fair to say a challenge and people don't know how to price it like okay well if I spend this amount of money what kind of protection do I get does that really cover me like where does it end almost so I don't know if you had some thoughts on that and some in some of your businesses like how you guys approach it it's it's hard I guess because you're selling something that doesn't really have an Roi yeah it's not a revenue generating thing it's just a cost it's a bit like insurance but everyone's happy to have insurance right and I think it'll just get to the point where they have to and certainly the customers that we sell into and lumify is primarily um selling into Enterprise and government their boards know that they have a duty uh to their shareholders to do this stuff and if not they'll when when they inevitably get hacked or inevitably there is an incident they'll be in the line of fire so so that comes down mandated from a board level and now we're seeing legislation right and it's the same reason that we see I guess a lot of forms of insurance it's either legislation or contractually obliged to have it if you want to be in business with other with other companies or with the government and so I think that will just inevitably become a part of a feature and a cost that everyone has to wear but yeah until then there's a bit of an education uh platform to do yeah it's uh definitely something that challenge that you guys can help with in yours what you provide around cyber security training because I think internal I.T teams are definitely struggling getting the right advice from external parties and also the right people internally to actually help when it comes to cyber security and I do like your analogy you had with law actually because it's so true that in it was just an I.T General she had a bunch of generals that was your your company or your department internally but now there's like product Engineers help desk Engineers Cloud Engineers cyber security analysts and that kind of thing so it is getting a similar kind of Specialists um yeah I mean when I did my I.T degree you could do four majors Information Systems Information Management which is not really even sort of it per se software engineering and network engineering that was it but I had one more AI which I actually did yeah oh really yeah yeah in 1995 man very forward thank you 1992 right I don't even know um all right so let's strip back to the training ICC training industry in Australia just get some scale there how many employees in lumify and how many competitors do you have because I have no idea yeah it's it's so one of the attractive parts of buying the lumify business five odd years ago was that it has consistently been Australia's largest for a long period of time okay um we have about 100 employees in Australia but we've you know also acquired a business in New Zealand uh that that is effectively the lumify of New Zealand is now lumify New Zealand uh but they had three or they have three campuses across New Zealand and then we've also gone into the Philippines as well where we have a campus in the Philippines okay and provide training there so it's um online and in person yeah so you know and I guess this is very sort of covert driven in some respect but pre-covered ninety percent of our training was done face to face and all of our training not all but 95 of our training is instructor-led training so there's a live instructor there uh not sort of self-paced online uh training so pre-covered ninety percent of that was fair face to face and 10 was virtual so you could dial into a zoom or a teams thing no matter where you were Kobe came along that switched around the other way and where it's starting to equalize out now is about 50 50 and we basically run hybrid sessions so there might be an instructor in our Brisbane campus delivering to two or three students there'll be a student in our Adelaide campus dialing into that and there'll be a person in Sydney at home or at work dialing into that as well and we're able to do that internationally now so someone in Philippines can dial into an Australia somewhere in New Zealand or vice versa however you want to set that sort of that's cool Matrix up was it Philippines organic or was that acquisition that was organic so we did a JV with a with a local partner up there so we've got 60 of that up there we've had Philippines can be a tough place to do business obviously covert came along typhoons we had a volcano you name it it's been it's been difficult earthquakes yeah but but um yeah really getting on track now and starting to see and it's just the commonalities we see between the markets and the ability to to say to a Philippine student well we may not be running that course in the Philippines this month but guess what there's one you can dial into in New Zealand there'll be a bit of a time difference to deal with but um you get the opportunity to do the course if you want to do it right now I want to pick your brain a little bit maybe in this for 50 years around internal I.T teams why do they find it hard to get time to do training because I get a lot of um feedback from it managers and cios saying yeah we want our guys to develop and build out our skill sets so we can do more stuff internally not rely on Partners so much and yada yada yada but it's very hard because they're trying to you know keep the lights on they've got products they need to do and you typically hard to get funding for stuff so what I guess you're going to Pig your way on that topic like why do you think they find it hard to do more IT training yeah I guess what's the alternative to taking the time to do that I mean they can do self-paced online stuff but but we know historically that doesn't have great completion sort of rates people drop out or they they don't really pay attention if you're if you're doing that at home at night after a full day's work and you've got a kid climbing on you and then things like that it's it's pretty tough to concentrate on that so we like to think that rather than try and do that and space that out over three four months or whatever it may be with you know questionable likelihood of completion how much of that sinks in versus take whatever it is three days four days five days carve that out go and do that uh in an instructor-led environment uh the benefits will actually sort of sink into that employee and that will come back to the business in terms of whatever technology you're dealing with new tech whether it's new technology and I think it attaches you know as part of an employee sort of proposition employment proposition that training piece is so important because if the employee is not getting that from where they are then they can go somewhere else to get that in the current environment where are you going to you know find another skilled employee that's not going to want the same thing anyway so what advice would you have to a CIO who's struggling to get their the rest of the management team buying on pulling some Engineers out of the field to essentially go and do training what advice would you have for them well I think the longer term benefit and it depends upon the nature of of the um of the training writer cyber security and there's a I think and I don't want to I'm not a sales guy right it's a pretty easy sell but I accept that that doesn't make it necessarily an easy decision for the business to invest that time and money into it but think of the risk you're you're mitigating by employing or training your guys in that area but then in other areas as well like the efficiencies that come with better use of the technology ultimately hit the p l uh and so there is an Roi attached to that training that can be established probably another one to add onto that would be that uh if you're using a third-party company just to do short projects all the time versus skill up your internal iot team it's going to be more cost effective in the long run but obviously you've got a lot of money out and time has put aside and I think that's what what I see is a lot of internal I.T teams are like yeah I would

love to do more training for Mike my guys but uh you know we can't because they're already on two projects and they get you know 20 tickets a day for example so but I want to be a little bit to cyber security which you mentioned the training courses that lumify provides what did that look like today versus five years ago around cyber security I would say we had practically no cyber security training five years ago really um I think one or two vendors at the most yeah right um but it wasn't that talked about it was still a fairly Niche area I'd argue within this sort of Technology space but of like we now have Australia's largest offering of vendors and courses um and everything through from sort of some of the um I guess end user cyber security training um that is not really for technical people it's more cyber security awareness training through to the the highest level of sort of technical stuff you can do and that's whether it's Technology based or sort of the Frameworks and you know we recently just went through our 27001 audit as well so we're now accredited ourselves so we're sort of I guess practicing what we preach as well around the importance of that what other training apart from cyber security is training up these days yeah so so the the ways are sort of cloud as I spoke of before and that and that that's just continued and um I think Microsoft dropped its earnings release yesterday and the continued growth they're getting in their Cloud division is just remarkable given it's not exactly coming off a low base it's still growing at such a high rate um cyber security obviously just just continuing to grow and as we've come off practically a non-existent base to go where we are today I think the next wave is going to be in Ai and I think um particularly if you look at Microsoft and their investment in open Ai and the way they're starting to was about why they're about to roll out some of those tools that are integrated into the Office 365 and the sort of tools that everyone already uses I I think that's the next big wave and we're ultimately the training we offer is authorized training so when Microsoft rolls those courses out will be will be first in line to start delivering those copilot courses will go nuts I think when it first comes absolutely yeah exactly uh Brett any questions you've got from Mark before Karen uh no thank you I just I did want to ask actually the current state of the AI courses you've got have you got any AI courses yeah we do that some of the more technical uh ones uh so Azure already has some um it's not my space at all but you know some elements on its platform and some courses that we already do offer but they've traditionally been um very Niche um and we run some some webinar sessions occasionally to brief people on what these are you know free just sort of lunch and learn sessions and usually you might get 20 30 people attending those the last one we ran on one of those courses got 300 people to attend uh which I think just shows the general growth in interest because now they realize that what's fine for the company to be talking at the front end all these things we're going to be doing whether it's chat GPT or co-pilot but somewhere along the line they're gonna have to support that at the back end as well so all their Engineers are gonna have to start looking at that as well so so yeah we we do have an existing offering and we've also just launched in our other business in the digital skills space called nexaq which is more end user apps training so things like Excel power bi were non-technical users we've just launched a chat GPT course there and right we were just getting constant requests from clients asking do we offer do we offer this course so we've developed our own course uh enrolling that it's actually just launched this week Brian Keane fantastic probably a power user I could probably come and help instruct don't pay him enough here we'll bring them on as a contract trainer how do you pro bono mate how does lumify um do that process of finding out what new courses they're going to bring out it's just from demand and what comes in or how or what vendors like Microsoft push out how does that work yeah so so we are primarily an authorized training partner so we're very focused and we think that gives the highest quality of training so if you've got the training content delivered from Microsoft via ours then naturally their best place to deliver or to provide that content on their own platform there are providers that do what's called sort of gray training out there where it's not authorized training and they may develop their own content in that so but we are therefore primarily vendor-led when a vendor launches a new course then that goes on our portfolio when there's a new technology area we go and seek out who are the key vendors in that space that we can partner with and it's just been a feature of the technology industry for decades that they have these sort of training ecosystems where they all have authorized training partners that they can trust and deliver and meet whatever their qualifying standards are to to deliver that occasionally there's just no vendor or you know take something like chat gbt there's no ecosystem around that so you have to develop your own content but primarily our focus is on on vendor authorized training as I said for Quality reasons yeah it makes sense I thought you'd have a really rigorous process on that because technology is always before right changes so much um I do have a question I'm curious and you may not be in this much of the detail but what does that look like are they giving like obviously you're going to have your Educators or instructors um and then we have course content creators I suppose on staff are they working with the vendors or is vendor do vendors have a a course outline that then you just tailor to your audience hat what does that look like it varies vendor to vendors some vendors will mandate you must use their content and only their content and so effectively we have a trainer that is just using slides and repack course outline not even repackaging it it's the slides that they've presented and they must be that's that's one of the terms of the the agreement other vendors will develop the framework then they'll license third parties maybe one maybe more than one to develop content so then you go to one of the licensed content providers and that's more in their process areas so you things like um uh prints two in areas like that I could be wrong they may do it differently but it tends to be more and the less the technology more the process Frameworks um and you'll license that from the content providers or you can try and develop your own but like we've said several times the technology changes so rapidly that the job of keeping that content up to date with whatever is happening in the underlying software or technology is really really difficult and you don't know quite often what's coming around the bend and so who's best place to do that the actual you know software provider or technology provider I mean if you can get them to provide the content that's kind of win-win really yeah and what's changed a lot in the industry was you know when everything used to be a software package that you got on floppy disk or CD yeah there'd only be different versions every what 12 18 months you might get a patch occasionally but it was probably to perhaps something that was broken not to really add a new feature and so courses didn't change until those versions changed and so it was fairly consistent Rhythm now I mean there are new versions dropping every week if not more frequently and a lot of these things right and so that that also means it's harder and harder to keep up to speed and so having that authorized content just makes it so much easier oh I'm just gonna just following on that so today uh so if you've got a say it's a software platform will they include in the course um like a student or a trial or a demo license if required generally not because the nature of the stuff we train is not end user so it's more uh you know for the Enterprise to roll out so yeah yeah I'm just like the way we train it is on Labs so the student gets access to larger simulated environment the gear in there yeah and it feels like they're operating on whatever it may be yeah but it's obviously just a simulated environment and that way that can set the challenge it can break something it can it can set the task for them to do and then assess whether they've done it rather than sort of live or a live environment that is a real environment but it's not set up for assessment or training so potentially if it's a hardware software then you you'd have equipment as well in in on the campuses yeah or we can simulate that through a lab provider yeah yeah cool well it helps separate run the also Ransom of the true vendors I know when we were with ddls you know 20 years ago you know Cisco if you weren't certified through ddls you can't actually sell this or service a Cisco equipment right so the cowboys that you know pretend they know how to use the Cisco iOS versus the ones that are fully certified it was actually a really good differentiator yeah exactly right and it's it's no different today uh in the sort of software piece would you rather have the Microsoft certificate whether you're working on Azure or would you have the College of whatever you've got a certificate College of YouTube yeah yeah exactly that's a good point I was just thinking that um those AI courses that you are planning on running I feel like you'd have to update them every two three weeks because the amount of AI tools [Music] maybe but uh that would just get rapidly changed because the amount of new AI tools you see in like that sales and marketing space alone just coming out all the time it's just nuts I don't know how you'd possibly keep up yeah and we've considered that in terms of our chat GPT course that we're realistic about how long we'll run off our own content until some of the content providers get up to speed and start issuing their content and that'll come with a cost obviously we have we've built the IP ourselves there's no licensing cost associated with that but we're willing to bear that cost to make sure it's relevant and up-to-date stuff yeah Michael changing he is for a second um something that's common theme in your life has been transformation right transforming businesses using technology the transformation tool you know transforming education energy I know you've played in that space a little bit can you tell us a little bit about you know what you've done in that energy transformation space yeah yeah sure um so one of the other investing companies of arowana is a business called Vivo power and Vivo power initially started very focused on the solar space and primarily in the US for various reasons primarily Trump the investment environment for solar became very difficult and so we pivoted the business so transformation one uh we pivoted the business into something else in that space and we identified an opportunity that there are a lot of hard to decarbonize sectors that were trying very hard to decarbonize and in the Australian context a very obvious one is it's sort of mining resources so um you know whether it's what they produce or how they dig it out of the ground and produce it it produces a lot of carbon emissions and they're big companies they have ESG goals and they're willing to spend the money to try and solve this problem but it's difficult and so we found this Dutch business that was doing EV conversions of of Utes basically and primarily Toyota Land Cruisers which is basically the standard de facto standard light vehicle used in the mining industry pretty much globally but definitely in Australia uh and you know from a Toyota perspective you know they've been slow I think it's you know fair to say very slow in terms of major car manufacturers to jump on board the electrification um wagon and they've been looking at hybrids and the like and they're not going to you know the Land Cruiser in terms of the Toyota offering is a very low volume seller compared to you know the Corolla or whatever maybe so the mass Passenger cars are obviously where they're going to be focusing uh their time and effort so we saw an opportunity in that space so we acquired that business in the Netherlands uh called Tembo and over the last few years we've been refining their product uh in terms of a conversion kit to convert Land Cruisers for two EVS to then use in these difficult sort of mining environments whether it be underground or above ground okay more transformational levels round trip to birdsville Towing and Caravan fuel bill was pretty high mate there you go although I don't know if there have been too many charge spots you can set some solar panels up and I'll sort you out yeah right Michael uh what's next for you mate you've obviously there's a there's a huge um I guess more opportunity with what you're doing with lumify and the other companies you're investing in uh we're obviously exciting happening in the future yeah well I think from an adventure code perspective we still see a long way to go uh in that business and um you know digital skills we had Australia's largest we own um New Zealand's largest uh there are always little things we can add on uh to that business but it's tough to start to find areas to grow there so yeah we did the Philippines a couple of years ago that's really starting to hit the stride now we think expansion southeast Asia in particular can make a lot of sense and we can bring a lot of strengths to those markets in terms of sort of how we do things um and also as that as that business grows and we cover different areas the offering to customers it grows as well and as I talked before about scheduling and things like that it just really helps we have an international schedule now when we bought that business we had a state-based schedule so if you're in Queensland you just looked at the courses that were available in Queensland and that was it then we went National now we've gone into National but outside of the digital space there's a any of the academic literature on the future of work talks about two types of skills you need digital skills which we've talked a lot about naturally um here today but the other one is soft skills and so they're the sort of human skills that aren't going to be readily replaced by chat GPT or Robotics and the like and they're going to be really important to ensure that the role you're in is not one of those roles that is vulnerable to being replaced and so we we have two businesses in the soft skill space of a business called ens which is a negotiation training business and we have a business called plain English Foundation which is a plain language Communication business we do a lot of work with government and big corporates in both those businesses and I think there's more work to be done not only in growing those businesses especially continuing to look at other opportunities in the soft skills space um where you know we think they're going to continue to grow in importance awesome appreciate you coming in we I think there's going to be a lot more growth in that space so I appreciate the interest here today thanks Michael thanks for having me thanks Jackson thanks mate thanks Mark the Titan of transformation I'll let others use that description [Music]

2023-09-01 00:08

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