Electric in the air with Sounds Air chairman Rhyan Wardman

hello and welcome to a another and it's been a little while eevees and beyond podcast and video if you're watching this on youtube we're kind of recording these things in both technologies these days now for the first one back we're actually not talking about an electric car which is probably shocking to a few of you but of course electric is important for a whole other range of transport you know in new zealand now we've got electric cars we've got electric buses we've got electric trains uh we've got an electric ferry that's just gone on the water but there's kind of one thing missing there and that is electric planes so our guest today is going to be one of the first operators of an electric commercial i guess passenger plane in new zealand there is a trainer already uh but i'm going to bring him into the room now it's uh ryan wardman the chairman and director of sounds here thanks for joining us ryan richard how are you ah fantastic fantastic how's level uh four going for you uh again we're back in our bedroom slash home offices uh working yeah yeah look i think it's um it feels different this time right uh this time round right um but indeed you know uh you know for the team of sounds there where uh we we hunker down and wait it out and uh and and do our burden and but we have full confidence that you know we'll come out of this uh reasonably soon and we can get back into the and back in the air and and uh service regional new zealand are you guys fully grounded at the moment are you still running some services actually uh two flights just uh went off about an hour ago one was to deliver some medical supplies to christchurch from blind to christchurch and the other one came across to wellington to do some uh uh turbo washes um but yeah essentially our our airline is grounded right right can you tell us a little about sound z to start i mean what's the history of the airline and and what kind of fleet do you currently have right so look uh sansa has been around for for a while it's uh it was founded 30 32 years ago by cliff merchant um and um and it's grown since then and initially we our services applied this cook straight so service from pickton to wellington is how it started uh and for quite a number of years uh that was the case and we flew um cessna caravans as the uh aircraft of choice uh and um and and again applying the cook straight and and that increase to blenheim to wellington and then also nelson to wellington um uh and then we saw an opportunity it was possibly about seven years ago uh where some of the other regional services were being vacated and we saw an opportunity to come in with a different type of aircraft and and service those sectors so our fleet now is four cessna caravans and six pc12s so this is the swiss made pilatus uh nine seater uh and uh we fly around 125 20 000 passengers a year and our route network extends from taupo in the north all the way down to wanaka in the south uh and and we have we have about nine nine sectors that we service so uh the company has grown um 82 staff uh and then we've also got a maintenance uh capability sound zero maintenance and there's another uh 20 odd staff in there so uh yeah the business has grown um considerably uh and and yeah we're very excited about what what comes next um yeah so i mean let's talk about this future electrification potential uh i mean let's not talk too much about the plane yet but i mean where did the idea come from and where did the process start for sounds here to start thinking about taking to the air in electric planes yeah so this this we've been we've been on the street for about two years now and uh and effectively came out when we started thinking about where we're going to be in five years time where we where would we want to be in ten years time um and as part of that that assessment we we also looked at the uh the technology uh around uh aviation uh and we very quickly realized that there was quite an evolution happening and i think it was a picture of the um aviation elise or alice uh that i saw uh that you know one sort of triggered this this this thought that okay you know things are developing here the the industry is moving on or the um aircraft propulsion systems are evolving uh and you know not only was i taken by the the futuristic look of it uh but also very excited about the different propulsion system that they were anticipating being battery electric um and then the probably the next uh image that we saw was of the magnex uh cessna caravan again under a battery electric that was doing some trial flights in in uh in seattle i think it was uh and and in our in our internal discussions okay well look there's an evolution happening and it's in the planes that we currently fly and so we ought to take note and understand this better um and and from there we also we then quickly understood that the early adopters of of this net this evolution uh in aviation were going to be the small regional operators such as ourselves and if it was going to be like ourselves then why isn't it us uh we have the we we have the the perfect network uh we're in a country where um you know by 2030 we're expected to be 100 renewable energy source you know we have a customer base that will want to fly responsibly and sustainably and and we you know we have a government who is uh has set uh our targets for the climate change uh so there was a lot of boxes that were ticked by you know not not only who we were but also where we were um and so that's that that started the journey because it's because we're somewhere away sadly from seeing you know 150 seat electric planes flying across the tasman aren't we but the technology is is surprisingly close for operations like your own yeah and i think uh look it it's one of a number of solutions right it's you know battery electric uh will be appropriate for up to a certain size of aircraft and for a certain range i don't know if we'll ever see a battery electric 150 seater however there are other zero emission propulsion systems out there there are being that are in development such as hydrogen fuel cell that that may well be more appropriate for for that larger aircraft and for those distances and indeed is likely to be uh and then of course in the interim there is biofuels and sustainable sustainable aviation fuels that are are also being looked at by other airlines so there are there are a number of options options out there the exciting thing is we're all hitting in a decarbonized uh um you know path and and that's what's very exciting now now you guys have have taken the step and essentially put in an order uh for a plane or committed to some some planes i believe and we're just gonna bring a photo up here on the screen of your future aircraft can you tell us a little bit about uh this aircraft it's a heart aviation plane yes so um heart aerospace uh in uh sweden uh this is their es19 so it's a 19 seater battery electric um and we started talking with uh with hard aerospace about about a year ago now uh and signed a letter of of intent or a letter of interest uh not only uh so not only does it have the zero emission you know requirement that we're looking for but it also was of a configuration that was particularly appropriate for our growth so one of the things i you know forgot to mention earlier is that we were also looking at what what was the next size aircraft that was going to be appropriate for our our operations uh going forward and really what we were looking for was a 19-seater aircraft and so you know when we when we came across uh what hard aerospace were doing we were you know not only excited about battery electric uh but also the 19-seater is an important consideration um and look it's it's a it's a really uh exciting uh um aircraft it's uh an exciting project uh we're really impressed with the team at hard aerospace uh uh they're very you know obviously very passionate and committed um and and and indeed what we understand the initial specifications or the first iteration that will uh is slated for uh production uh will have a range and a capability that will work very well within our operations put a video now just of the uh of the aircraft it's a it's a cool looking thing and and it's interesting i noticed from some uh some of the material i've been pulling down about it before this that you guys aren't the only one to choose it there's some some big names that have uh have committed to the the plane yeah look it's and it's really exciting isn't it yeah here it is there you know the united airlines uh in association or along along with uh mesa or messer uh have you know have selected this aircraft as being uh appropriate for their uh their ambitions as well or their uh short hop sectors uh and you know for us uh you know as a small regional operator sitting here in new zealand we were really excited and and and chucked for the team at hart aerospace but also very much encouraged that you know with united airlines behind them this aircraft's going to get made right it's uh yeah so yeah um exciting developments and and it's uh and it's not just united airlines um fener uh the national airline and finland have also uh made a commitment to or some commitment to heart aerospace we we understand so um again exciting and and just ensures that this is going to happen and i think they're quite there are quite a few um indications of people who want to take it i think they've got kind of well i just take the use you use the word orders but uh but uh requests for 200 units i think so far from various airlines that's quite a lot for uh for a first-time manufacturer so hart's built a lot of aircraft before well that's right and uh look i mean you know it's uh it's going to be a a challenge without a doubt but an exciting and exciting problem to have and i i suspect or my understanding is that high aerospace will be looking for a collaborative you know approach to to enabling or to ensuring these these aircraft do do get made i think the important thing here is that there's there's a good intent there's an ambition by a number of airlines ourselves included uh to to provide or to to enable um uh decarbonized uh transport solution and uh and we we expect our customers of the future to uh to expect it and we want to be able to supply it do you think it's interesting that it's a i guess a startup that has done this as opposed to an existing manufacturer of aircraft i mean we know as you mentioned before cessna has uh had a play with or done some research on electric aircraft but so far the heart and that this range seems to be the most successful as far as a demand level goes do you think that that specifically because it is a a clean sheet new thinking as opposed to something that's been adapted look i'm not sure um i i don't know uh the the answer to that what i do know or what i do i understand is that there are a lot of uh uh there's a lot of interest in this space it's uh uh and heart aerospace is one of many that are have embarked on this so um aviation uh uh founded out of israel it was one of the was uh one of the earliest and you know they're they're working with magnets and and developing their their own iteration uh zero albia who were another uk based outfit that we started talking to very early on at the same time as heart aerospace um they've got some exciting developments as well around the hydrogen fuel cells and looking at conversion kits and uh so uh there's there's quite a number that are out there and we and indeed we did a feasibility study uh as part of our uh i guess process or due diligence and and trying to understand what you know what what were the options out there available to us uh and yeah there is there is a fair few uh i look at i understand airbus are also looking at uh you know this technology and and and hydrogen propulsion systems um haringey energy and universal uh hydrogen are also doing this so i think there's there is a lot of effort a lot of focus and uh and and this is all this is all positive stuff so how many of you indicated you're going to take when do you expect them to arrive and i mean how long until perhaps the entire sounds air fleet has gone electric yeah so we're we're hoping that by uh by 2030 that we we would be able to convert uh our entire fleet or indeed uh adopt these new electric aircraft and then maybe look at converging new conversion kits on our existing fleet um but but look i mean there's quite a lot uh that has to be done between now and uh the you know the initial slated uh production and by 2026 and we you know we certainly appreciate that there's uh a lot of work to uh that still has to be done um our our ambition is that we want to be one of the early adopters um when exactly that happens we'll we'll work uh alongside uh these technology providers and uh and aircraft manufacturers to to you know to to make that happen one of the things that that does have to happen before that happens is infrastructure um and i will start this off with a with a another video i i showed you uh earlier i'll i'll throw that up now now this was one i spotted before it's a people at heart working on the engine and uh something i picked up on here and and the nerds out there will see it is that the motor well the power unit which has the battery within the nice cell i think is the aviation term just charges off a standard ccs charger that's an abb unit the same as i think what you'll find outside some audi dealers uh charging that so really interesting to see that they've worked within the existing parameters of of ev charging infrastructure every charging technology now if you guys started your discussions with i guess airports are probably going to be your landlords when it comes to these about uh how and and what will be available for charging yeah indeed so yeah like i said we you know we started with uh sort of journey two years ago and indeed one of the first that we talked to was wellington airport um and indeed all the conversations we've had since not only with wellington airport but mercury energy um marlborough lines uh vladimir putin helsinki they've all been very enthusiastic and there is definitely a desire to uh to enable uh this early adoption of of this technology um in what form or shape it takes is yet to be is yet to be seen um as you said you know that you know that earlier uh image there it was of a standard is that a 175 uh charger our understanding is that for an es19 we would need a one megawatt uh charger now of course that's for the entire aircraft and there's four nay cells um so the the configuration at an airport is still yet to be i guess determined or or clarified um but the encouraging thing for us is that the the airports are enthusiastic uh and and and engaging and as with the energy companies and as i mentioned uh mobile lines and and uh and mercury energy so between now and uh when the the aircraft is uh uh arrives you know we we've got a lot of work to do uh and we need to have those infrastructural solutions in place uh obviously before we can start the operation so um but i think as you mentioned you know the ferry that was recently launched you know the east west ferry um you know they they were they've got a solution in place right right on the uh waterfront of wellington so it you know it can certainly be done if there's a you know enough of a commitment yeah imagine you'll be watching that uh that roll out of that fury quite closely because it does very much align with the the requirements that your plane has well and and indeed the team behind that we we talked to them uh very early on on our journey as well and you know some of their learnings they've passed on and uh you know some some really good uh you know collaborative efforts there to to uh you know to to enable a similar uh thing to happen for aircraft as what's happened with the ferry now now heart have i don't think i've released particularly specific houses power numbers or battery size numbers uh but have you got any ideas of how long a charge will take for the aircraft yeah so our understanding is that it's 45 minute charge time uh and and i think that was an important consideration you know the way that uh an airline operates or indeed how an airport operates uh can't be uh considerably changed by this new technology so you know the 45 minute charge time is what we understand uh it to be uh to to be and and that will be absolutely fine for our operations you know there's plenty of time between um turn around uh we also understand that the aircraft will have a uh initial aircraft we'll have a 400 kilometer range uh so allowing for contingencies and alternates that's that works extremely well within the short hop sectors that we fly so again you know a tick for that um my understanding is that the the initial uh the first iteration of this aircraft will have a battery power density as it were of 300 megawatt um per kilogram and again 300 watt hours per kilogram i think is what you're after there oh big problem kilogram uh and that you know that's what gives it the 400 kilometer range um we understand that battery technology will improve over time and and that's likely to increase to 500 watt hours per kilogram uh by 2030 uh and then and in that iteration that that will give it a range that will cover all the sectors that we fly so again that's why we're looking at you know by 2030 that when the battery technology is to such a point where all our sectors can be flown we would then be looking for a full full electric fleet yeah yeah this all sounds expensive what's what's the project got a rough idea of a project cost of this i mean what's one of these plans worth and and uh how is this going to be funded uh well yeah i mean that's commercially commercially sensitive information but yeah i'm certainly not going to disclose that um look i think uh there is a lot of an interest in this um space there is a lot of an enthusiasm to decarbonize um transport um um funding for for this type of technology or the incorporation of technology we don't see as uh as a challenge and we we haven't anticipated um we haven't seen this as a problem uh today so um look we we we think if there's enough of a will and enough of support uh the funding uh will be fine um um but indeed what i can say about these electric aircraft is that the um acquisition costs were not too dissimilar to current you know what's currently available so uh they they are on par but what what what makes them very compelling and almost a no-brainer is the maintenance and operating costs um they are considerably lower and also the inherent simplicity of the electric motor as a as as compared to the gas turbine is also you know a massive consideration um an electric motor overhaul is every twenty thousand hours uh for a gas turbine that's every seven thousand hours the cost of a new gas turbine equivalent is about a million dollars where for the electric motor it's fifty thousand dollars likewise the overhaul costs you know the overhaul of a gas turbine is about a million and it's um you know about i think it's 10 000 for for the for the electric motor so there's just it it's such a compelling argument for in terms of um economics for the uh for the utilization or the engagement or embracing of of of electric or um electric uh motors yeah yeah yeah are you are you hoping the camp government will come to the party and assist with this uh this project as well i mean you're looking to them for any funding towards either the vehicle the aircraft or the infrastructure the government has been you know fairly prominent through their various funds and funding other electric transport options such as relatively small amounts assisted with assistance with the uh the ferry but uh assistance in trucking fleet rolls out and so on so forth is that something you'll be asking for or something you'll be uh hopping on one of your aircraft to wellington to to knock on some doors for um so at this stage uh no we haven't we're not we're not seeking government support but what the government through uh eco so the energy urgency and conservation authority where they have been really helpful is in terms of the feasibilities study that we undertake so they co-funded that feasibility study there are more studies that need to happen or more assessments that need to happen in terms of you know small regional airport conversions from what they currently do to to electric or hydrogen or a combination um and in terms of upskilling and training uh that there's a there's an opportunity there through uh robinson research institute and massey school of aviation and again that could be a study or an assessment that could be supported by uh by government to to to fully understand and unlock that that potential um another area where i think you know government support is going to be very important in terms of the civil aviation authority and ensuring that they are resourced enough to be able to be proactive in this evolution of aviation and around the regulatory environment and the certification of these new type of aircraft it would be unfortunate if you know the infrastructure was put in place the aircraft was brought in and then only then did the certification process only start then but uh so we would like we would like uh government's um um involvement through the caa and the ministry of transport uh to to to a proactive engagement yeah yeah is there much of a difference for the pilot in flying one of these or is it you know what's the what's the learning curve expected to be like shifting from a a an equivalent 19-seat uh avgas or jet fuel powered aircraft through to one of these electric powered ones yeah look i uh i would imagine there's a there's there is a bit of retraining that's going to be required um so one consider the to consider the weight uh a conventional aircraft uh gets lighter as it travels from point a to point b as it can you know utilizes the fuel a battery electric is a stays the same weight uh so indeed uh the take-off and landing characteristics are going to be different with a with a battery electric as opposed to um conventional um understanding the energy source is different from you know you from fuel as opposed to battery so you know good appreciation of that and understanding of of the the uh that that energy source is a consideration um so look you know there is no doubt that this new type of aircraft will will require you know pilots to understand that the subtle differences we'll move on i think next to what the customers can expect and we'll we'll play this video now and i think this is a really telling one to the whole project and that's the engine doing a a run up and and for those on the podcast it can be great because you better hear it doesn't matter if you can't see it so we'll pop this up now uh but essentially what we're looking at is is the engine um and in a minute they're going to wheel it outside onto a onto a test rig and uh and fire it up and um it sounds like that noise in the background at the moment it's just someone on power that's full power now i think it's just not particularly noisy is it just a just a giant bathroom fan yeah i mean extraordinary that's amazing so i mean even passengers are like i imagine so sorry richard you just cut out there so what what what difference does that that lower sound footprint of the aircraft make i mean that's going to be a less texting uh experience i guess for the crew and and the passengers because some of those smaller aircraft could be rather noisy yeah indeed and i think um well look i mean this is what's the what's exciting isn't it the the passenger experience we're anticipating to be very different and and i think it will become a little bit like when you get into your your electric car it's your immediate your immediate impression is how quiet it is and and we're anticipating that you know on the taxi uh you know for some passengers they might not even be aware that that is moving um and indeed on the cruise and upon the center will be a a very very different um experience to to you know what we you know what we currently have uh and i think they're all an all together more pleasant experience looking for you know you jump into an atr and you uh and they fire up the engines you get that kind of whiff of kerosene through the air conditioning having that gone will be rather pleasant i imagine i think so um but a good example is uh the pepper straw uh electric air uh have brought in the uh two-seater uh um uh fully electric and that you know that's incredibly quiet uh you know watching that fly and uh so yeah we look forward to we look forward to seeing uh this aircraft and uh and and having that experience so yeah as as you know urban density gets tighter around airports as having quieter aircraft important to the ability for airports to stay close to city centres and so forth oh look absolutely you know and actually one of the one of our most recent sectors that we've started flying is between christchurch and monaco and for the wanaka community in particular the uh the noise uh of the local um airport um um was a consideration in terms of uh embracing our our aircraft and our service that we put in there it's uh it uh because for them they did they just didn't want jets coming in and out of that that airport uh and i think that's going to come you know become more and more a consideration for for airline operators that uh noise for the surrounding community is is an important consideration um and indeed if you with the electric aircraft uh will be something that you can um you can comply to and and can enable uh enable you know that coexistence yeah look fantastic look uh thank you so much for giving us your time today ryan uh i think this project's very exciting and i can't wait to uh pop down and fly on one in um four you know four and a half five years time uh all going well and uh yeah it's i think the the whole uh electric future in aviation so exciting and uh i'm sure it is for you guys yeah hey look thank you richard thank you for your time um and yeah look we're we're as you know the stanza team are really excited about this and uh but yeah we've only just started and the hard work starts now and there's a lot that needs to be done between now and when that aircraft arrives fantastic look thank you everyone for listening or watching this depending on where you're uh you're seeing it don't forget to like this episode uh subscribe or for more great news head over to eviesomebeyond.com there'll be a version of this interview in story form with some great images and other information there in the september issue thank you so much you

2021-09-09 23:01

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