David Paulides 2017 - Missing 411 November 19, 2017 | Podcast
Havi desert-like, a Scirocco. Blazing. Across the land into your town into. Your home, slamming. Into your radio like a supercharged. Nano particle, of unobtainium. Greetings. To all of you from the boldest, bhadiya stout, rageous city in the world the, planetary, capital, of Sun fun sin sex, and secrets, my, not so humble hometown, Las Vegas Nevada my. Name is George Knapp your occasional host designated. Driver of the airwaves and moderator. Of tonight's upcoming, cacophony, of conversation. Of course this is not my normal spot, in the coast-to-coast rotation. I am in tonight from my colleague and friend George, Noory and very. Glad to be back with you once again you, know as listeners know we cover the gamut of unusual, experiences. And encounters on, this program and on the credibility scale, the stories we hear range from the, unsettling. To the unbelievable, and I mean that in a literal sense we've. Often discussed, the issue of disclosure our, need to know the truth and I, think most of the coast faithful, are of a mind that we're ready for the truth whatever that truth might be but. It's one thing to have an academic, discussion about, weird, ethereal, matters, in the, comfort of your own home it's. Quite another to stare it right in the face to fight it and then, to fight the terrible personal, consequences that, inevitably, follow when. Someone has the guts to step forward and tell the world about their unusual, experiences. What. Would you do if you're out in the middle of nowhere it's dark it's cold you're miles from any kind of help basically, defenseless, and you're, confronted, by something, from beyond strange. Beings, technology. So, advanced, it might as well be magic, would. You stand or would, you run tonight. We'll hear from some people who've had to make that choice the. Travis, Walton case is probably the best documented. But still the most controversial, example, of what, we would call alien, abduction, those. Of you follow the subject closely, surely know about the incident back in November, 1975. At least in the broad strokes, and you've, undoubtedly formed, an opinion about its veracity, those. Of you who simply can't swallow the whole alien abduction. Scenario, who find it preposterous, on, its face will, have a chance tonight to hear chilly first-hand, accounts, from, men whose personal, veracity, and motives, have, been put through the ringer of public opinion and scrutiny. Is there. Proof is there. Evidence, reliable. Testimony, to prove this stuff if. Ever there was a case that could lend credence to this disturbing, narrative, this is it I am, joined tonight by Travis, Walton whose strange, tale became. A best-selling, book and a hit movie but.
Whose Tech paid a terrible price in, his personal, life for, having the courage to come forward and to stick to his guns adjoining. Travis, for the duration of the program as Steve Pierce who, was part of the same logging, crew on that night back in 1975. The night that Travis disappeared. Later. In the interview we'll be joined by another member of that crew a guy, who really. Doesn't like to speak about it publicly in part because for a time he. Was suspected of murdering Travis, Walton and face, the very real possibility of, prosecution, and imprisonment. And helping. Us to understand, the big picture of the alien abduction scenario, is, hypnotherapist. Yvonne Smith who has worked with hundreds, of people who've, reported their own encounters, with the unknown and who's gotten to know Travis, Walton a bit. Over the past couple of years you. Know this is the kind of show that goes to the heart of what coast-to-coast is all about so if you've been hankering for a slab of red, paranormal. Meat your, wait is over, as. Always webmaster, Tim banal and I have put together a collection of news items and oddities from the past few days it's posted on the coast to coast website under, naps news including. A couple of stories that directly correspond. To the subject of tonight's conversation. I'll, have more to say about some of these items a bit later time permitting for. Now though put, on a pot of joe move, a bit closer to the curvature campfire, and prepare. Yourselves for one heck of a coast-to-coast ride, fire. In the sky the, Travis Walton story we, begin right after this I'm George Knapp and this is the one and only coast-to-coast am. Welcome. Back I'm George Knapp in tonight for George Noory I should mention the music you're going to be hearing tonight as we go to breaks or return from breaks was, selected, by Nathan and I as a way to sort, of help set the stage it's. Kind of like a musical, time machine. These are songs that'll take us back to 1975. When the principal, events in this story unfolded. Songs. That were playing around that time and a few from groups that Travis and his pals have said were on their regular playlists, back then hope you like our selections, you, know after searching these, music lists to prepare for the show for, that year turns out 1975. Was one heck of a year for music you know even within ufology. The, Travis Walton experience, was, controversial, right from the beginning if. It was true it, confronted, UFO, researchers. Unpleasant. Reality, the. Strong indication, that these visitors, wherever, they were from were. Not merely benign, space, tourists, mere, lights in the sky is sent, for our enjoyment or amusement but, real beings, whose, intentions, were, mysterious, and apparently, anything but benign, and, I searched through my library today in preparation for the program candid to see what other respected. Researchers, had written about there Travis Walton case over the years the, gold standard, for me as I've mentioned before on the program includes two names Jacques, valet who, wrote that he met with Walton and others and feels, they were telling the truth and Jerry.
Clark Who wrote this in his massive, encyclopedia. One of the best UFO, books ever written is called the UFO book he said in, the, end how one views the Walton controversy. Depends on how one feels about UFOs, in general and alien. Abduction, claims in particular, if one believes it's possible that UFOs exist as, piloted. Extraterrestrial. Vehicles, one, can accept the Travis Walton boarded a spacecraft, and interacted. With its occupants if one, believes such things are not possible one. Has little choice but to insist that a heretofore, undetected. Hoax scheme, underlies. The claim nearly. All of the available evidence Jerry, Clark says would, lead one to the conclusion that, Walton, his family, and the logging, crew are not hoaxsters if there's, compelling evidence to the contrary it, has, yet to emerge. Travis. Walton it is great to have you on the program I know you've been here before and I and the, audience should know that you and I have communicated. From time to time from. Afar over the years but I've never had the pleasure of interviewing you, I'm very glad to have you here and I hope can explore areas that are not too repetitive, for you well. Thank, you for having you there. Travis. I. Am. Hoping that Travis's, just, gone and gone, away from the phone for a second here here our Steve Pierce you and I have not spoken before but I understand, you're not all that fond of cramming interviews yourself and for, very good reason very much appreciate you joining us. Thank. You for having me Steve there I. Some. Reason I'm unable to hear our guests, Yvonne Smith is, you found that an organization, known as zero close, encounters, resource, organization and, you've, worked with hundreds of people to help them through situations. Akin. To post-traumatic. Stress, disorder, it certainly fits it's, been a lot of years since I've seen you but I'm very glad to have you here and joining. Us tonight and then later, in the show we're gonna be joined by another member of the logging crew Yvonne are you there yes. This. Is gonna be a problem because I am NOT able to hear any of our guests so I'm going to go ahead and talk to you Vaughn and hope, we can get this worked, out Yvonne help, me at, least for the listeners, since, I can't hear you help me set the stage, characterize. The Travis. Walton case in the abstract, links, in the annals of ufology and why, it deserves, our attention so, many years later oh my. Gosh are you able to hear me George. They. Made me not the. Travis, Walton, case is considered, as. We. Mentioned, before one of the most documented. Well-documented. Cases. Unprecedented. Because of, the. Witnesses. That he had with him that that, night, that he was taken. When. And I'm very very happy to know that we have two of them with us tonight. In. The fact that all, of them all the witnesses, including. Travis all passed, a lie-detector test. And. Is. It this is historical. And even, though it occurred. Back in 1975. This, case is. It. Is discussed, I think more than any of the other cases that we've researched, over. The years I've, been doing my work now for 21. Years and it. Is always, important. In. Exciting. At the same time as a researcher. When. We have cases, with, multiple. Witnesses. I brought. About two. Of them in my first, book chosen. People. That were that. That. Experienced. Double abductions. But, again the. Travis, Walton, case is. Just, is very. Unique, and is set apart from, many. Of the other cases that. That. We're, written about and and, discussed. So. I'm very excited, and thank. You so much for having me on the show tonight. And. I'm. Try. You've, on I'm still, unable to hear you so I'm just kind of winging it from this end I'll ask you one other question and hope hope, that, we can get this technical, problem solved. But you. Know you don't hear many cases, like the the Walton experience, not. Many like it in history, are there any that are like it and and do you have, do. You have similar, tales told, anything. Even leading up close to deaths that are told by the people you work with now. Well. You. Know as I mentioned before. The. The, Walton case is very, unique, because of the. Number. Of people that were involved the. Witnesses. That. That. Were there, in the truck as, Walton. Exited. The truck was. Standing, underneath of the object, and these. These. People that were in the truck actually. Witnessed. The, beam coming down and and, being. Travis. And I had, the opportunity, to. To. Meet with Steve Pierce last week. We. Had Travis, and Steve, Pierce. As our guest speakers at our 20th. Anniversary of my. Support, group close to counter resource, organization.
And. When. I stop and think about. You. Know what these people went through we. Have we do have several. Double, abduction, cases and some with multiple. Witnesses. I'm writing about one, right now, which. I will be publishing in a few months about, a case that involved. About. A dozen people. But. Again. They. Were. Not the type of witnesses. Where they actually. Saw. Someone, being, taken, from their. Hotel, room in other words and means, that by that I saw the, bright. Beam of light so. Really it you. Know Travis's case is, extremely. Unique. And. I. Know. That you know people, that. As. You mentioned Jerry, Clark and Jacques, Vallee you. Know well-respected, researchers. Have. Come forward and in the hip stated, that. Travis. And his crew, did. Not hoax, this. Case it's. You know extremely, important. Not. Travis Walton can you tell us what your life is like now I mean I'm reading the book rereading the book in preparation, for this interview I, know you, were 22, years old I guess in in 1975. I would guess that the. Life of a logger is it it's not a real long career what you're doing now what what you do in your life how you're doing I apologize. But I'm not able to hear you your, answer so I'm gonna ask Nathan to let me know when you're you're finished responding. Well. You know I did, return. To work, in the woods for a period. Of time after the incident, happened you know just one of those things where you. Know you get get, thrown off the horse and you got to get better, at. This but. I eventually, left. That line of work and went, to work at the Moldy Mills were like six, years or so and then. Moved on to the paper mill where I worked. There for another 11, years and. Then I took. Three. Years ago, been. Busy catching, up with all, the things today wasn't. Getting done while I was working, too much overtime. Hey. I'm uh I'm pleased to tell you that I can now hear you I'm, also hearing my voice in, my head but glad.
That I can tune. In to the program, there's, a story in your book about an encounter you had with a bear and there are some other references. To encounters. With rattlesnakes when you were a young man and, I think those stories kind of give us insight, into why. You reacted. As you did when you saw this object out, in the forest and running right at it and I know that a lot of people have criticized, your story saying nobody. Would run right out of flying saucer, but, this story about the bear sort of gives. Us a clue about what was to come. Well. Unconventional. Behaviors. I engaged, in in those days there. Were wild horses up there on the, area. At the time as a matter of fact they're still there. But. Don't tell the BLM, they'll come and grab them I had. A plan to try to rope, some of these and. That was the kind of a half-baked. Idea. You know how do I actually anything, getting that lasso, on, horses. I would have been. In big trouble store but. You ran at this bear right yeah. Yeah, well you know it was all that you know, the bear was already scared by the truck and. So. It. Was just kind of a little. Bit of a. There's. A reference to in the book I mentioned about rattlesnakes, where you say that there was a day when you see one you would shoot it but, you changed, after, your experience how. Explain, that change and how, it is manifested. Itself in your life in other ways well, you know I I know that I've made that sort of a change but I can't really explain it you know, it's. Just kind. Of a general maturity. I don't know. Reasonable. Approach to things, I. Don't. Know III. Wouldn't really connect. That directly, to the incident, but you know. Overall. Steve. I want to bring you into the conversation kind. Of curious about the kinds of pressures that you have faced and I'm familiar with some of them but they don't know all of them and I wonder it among. The pressures, you've had have you ever been asked. To retract the story or offered, money or threatened, to tell, something different. I've. Been offered money I. Was. Offered $10,000. And say was a hoax, can. You tell us who offered that. Feel. Of cloud, no. Kidding. Well. We'll get into Philip Glass but I mean he came flat out to say I'll give you $10,000, if you'll recant, the story. He. First. Time I. Heard. About him I had a police officer come to my door and. He said, so class that he'd give me $10,000. If. I said it was a hoax. What. About other kinds of pressures any, threats. Um. On what immediate threat, well, like, put. You away will, will embarrass you will, put. Your behind bars. Me into, another state and he. Bugged me for a long time. You. Know they say. It was a hoax at. This point in your life is it the kind of thing you wish it never happened or your after. Having years to think about it it's a good thing.
Now. Travis. You're not, know. After, all you've been through, you. Know. In. Order to cope with any difficult. Thing in life you gotta kind of look for the good in it you know and you know try. To, use. The. Negative. Well. That doesn't go along with the scenario that people, have especially the skeptics that allyou UFO, people make tons of money and you live in big houses and you just make stuff up so. You can make movies and books and things of that sort but. You, are talking about it more, freely, than you used to am I correct in that that's, true you know I, toyed. With the idea many, times over the years of just walking, away from it and refusing, to talk about it ever again, but. I've gradually come to realize that alone with Burton comes a, great, responsibility. And. I. Think. I think. It's important, to try to get true. There. Was a section, of your book where you wrote this you said I've come to realize the biggest problem, anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions, of reality are, compulsively, filtered, through the screening mesh of what, they want and, not want to be true people, see what they expect, to see preconceptions. Seem to determine, judgment, of everything, it's, not solely because this human failing. Played such a big part in the experience, as I recount here that, I consider it so important, in the overall scheme of thing if you look you'll, find this human proclivity at the root of every single personal, problem or social, ill humanity, has ever endured still, believe that. It's. True. Of skeptics, not just the self, playing, you know media skeptics but anybody who's negative, about the situation. About. This information, because you, know it seems that for certain, people with a certain mind that no. Amount of evidence. Well. We're going to get into the facts right after this break elo, strange, magic, from 1975. Take us into the break Travis, Walton Yvonne Smith and the.
Steve Pearce joining. Me to talk about an amazing experience, and we get into the specifics, right after this. Travis. Walton was welcomed, into a machine, a machine the likes of which he had never seen before and maybe a few, people anywhere have seen before it. Was an amazing, encounter that, led to a massive manhunt, suspicions, of murder. Recriminations. For Travis and his family and his friends, maybe. What happened after, his encounter with these unknown beings was far, worse and, and left far. Deeper scars than than what happened on board this craft but when we come back we're gonna get into the specifics, of of what happened on board and what. Was going on on the ground at the same time stay with us everyone coast to coast a.m., we'll be right back all, right, I hope we have our technical difficulties. Behind us and everyone's here, and that we can all hear each other Travis, why, don't we I know you told the story many times before but. For the benefit of those listeners not familiar with it can you tell it one more time what, happened on the night of in. The November. 1975. You and your six friends are out just finishing, up a long day's work what do you see well. We. Were going. Home it, was starting to get dark. We, noticed a glow coming through the trees. Definitely. Out of mason wood. It. Was rather puzzling, first because we really. Get rumors. Tree. We. Find the first, in the clearing, where we had a, unobstructed. View, of this thing it was just a mistake. Like. This. Hovering. There. One. Of the members, our. Spaceship. Everybody. Some. Hazy. Ball of light off of the distance. It. Was just there. - damn Barry. You. Know. Totally. I. Immediately. Throw open the door and started tortoise, but you know it wasn't like a really. Get. Close but I was, thinking it would actually, take off. Were. You kind of drawn to it well. You know Alan. Was playing in one interview that he thought it look em like I was you. Know just under, some sort of hypnotic control, Stevie. But. You, know from, my point of view is just felt, me, like I was you, know acting. Upon the floor. But. Then of course you know if they do have the ability to. Control. What we do they could probably also make us believe we it, was iron yeah but. Nevertheless. You, know to, me I was just you, know eager, to see it up close and but. Or closer, and. Thinking. That it would probably take off this work right.
All The way up today so. I was moving quickly at first then, once I saw that it wasn't going anywhere. I. Slowed. Way down and. The. Guys in the truck were yelling at me, back, truck, wait. And. Could you hear him well, that you think back to it yeah, I could, hear later, swearing, at me. Saying, fun. Complimentary things, about what I was doing and. You know really. I, was. Definitely you. Know. Coming. Face to face with the idea that this bad. But. When. I got. It. It, was just amazing. Perfection. Hovering. There but. Sounded. Me, suddenly. Got louder started, to, move and, so. I, don't. For cover, got. Down tiny in the vlog. You. Know the, crews. Really. Increasing. Anxiety. Without. You, know regardless, of their, existence. I was I was mad, had made up my mind that I wanted to get. The heck out of there but. I was kind of torn between, staying. Undercover. There behind the log and get, the heck away from, there its back truck, so. I decided. To make. A run for it no. But. When I straightened, up to. Run. Back to the truck that's. When I hit. This. Beam yes. Energy. So. Felt. Like a, physical. Blow like I just know, hit by a truck that I kind, of. It. Had a sort of a numbing. Sort, of a, electrical. Shocks or. And. You know Dwayne Smith him later camel intercept, him it sounded, like. The. Act, made it boy. They. Heard but I didn't, see, her here it actually. Were. You conscious. You were you were knocked out literally knocked out yeah. That. It knocked. Me back to the air. He's. Closer to twenty feet and the. Way that I landed, without protecting. Myself. They. Immediately, started, yelling among themselves about it killed. Why. Do you, assume that they might be that. Take. Off, let's. Get Steve to interject here for a second we'll come back right back driver Steve described, the the scenario inside, the truck you're all going crazy saying, what are you doing Travis, you must be out of your mind, well. Everybody's, hollering, and I'm sitting, there looking and when. Travis comes out. He. Goes up there and then starts making a weird noise and then. Blue-green, light came out and zap him I said they got him and that's when we took off you. Know. Thinking. Back at it I mean that's, that that's sort of a critical. Moment there there's your your friend and, your coworker, out there you think he's dead you're, getting out of there I mean do, you regret it no how do you know Mike, was taken off I I had, my window my hands kind of like out the window looking you. Know and then when as, soon as I say they got him I felt. My. Head jerked back and we started to jump you know the truck just started taking, off and I was espousing, all over the truck it took me a couple minutes to realize we were going down the road. Did. The description, of the beam the Travis, just, related, describe, it from your vantage point. It. Was a little screen light and it lit up the whole sky but. You couldn't see nothing I mean the whole sky lit up but still couldn't see the trees and it was so bright I mean. It was it. Was bright. So. You figured Travis, is dead you go jamming, down the road and go, a little ways, and then at. Least somebody I guess realizes, hey we need to go back well. We'll. Get down the road and we all stop and we get out and soon as we get out we've seen it take off then. We started talking about you know, should, we go back and get him and I think, was doing. Smith's and I think he was incinerated you, know and I said no I seen, him hit the ground you know he. Didn't hit the ground so. We. All decided, to go back and turn, around and look for him and, so. We went back and looked for him we couldn't find him we looked everywhere and. That's. When we went into Heber, and called the police department we'll. Come back to that part of the story Travis, how, long do you think you were were you taking on board you think right away or you have no idea. Well. You know according, to what the crew said they weren't, gone that long so, it must have been fairly, immediately. And, you. Know and. Probably with good reason. At. The time I. Accept. The terminology. Abduction. No. Kind. Of a forceful. You know I kidnapped, but. It's, only in more recent years but I was coming to think that maybe maybe, that whole scenario. Isn't. Real accurate, that. Maybe you, know what, really happened there was that when I stood. Up at. That moment my, upper, body was. Closest. Thing to this Wow, and if. There was some kind of charge, building, up you. Know some. Of the guys said that they said, that felt. Like something, was about to happen, maybe. They were sensing, this energy, buildup but. You, know if it was a really, a deliberate. Theme or something inspired it was just kind, of a discharge as, a, side, effect of it powering, up to move, away like that. Then. Perhaps, it. It, hit me and injured me in a way we. It was. Necessary. To, bring me on board the, situation. Jared. You know those. Days was either patient. Or Xolo which would have been well. Over an hour and you, know if I was in cardiac arrest something. Needed to be done.
And, You uh I know and reading your book that you had a lot of different kinds of interest you and you and Mike would, would debate different kinds of subjects, academic, sort of subjects, it sounded like you you did a lot of reading on a broad variety of topics had. You ever read UFO, books were you into this stuff cuz I I asked the question because as you know some. Of the skeptics said ah well he must have seen a movie that aired about Betty and Barney Hill or, he read the story and that's where all this came from well, you know that, we did have a wide variety the interest and you know the subject had come up because there was an article in the. Paper about, cattle. Mutilations, but. You, know it was not any kind of a fixation or, obsession. You. Know that's the implication that's what they're trying to jest but this was a big thing. There's. Probably no one. You've. On it's. So hard figuring. Out the truth from fiction and, these, kind of encounter stories not, to say that Travis's, is like any other one but the. Research that you've done into, screen. Memories for example where the. Abductors, create. A scenario, where they look much different from, maybe what, they actually do, resemble, they, they, can appear as as an owl or a deer, or something like that and. Even implant. Other kinds of memories I would. Imagine it's difficult to, say that the what, Travis is describing, is literally, true. You. Mean from. What. Do you sees yeah. What what comes next when, we're going to get into talking about the beings that he encountered on board and the experiences, on board. Yeah well certainly. George. The. Alien. Beings can implant. So. Many different, scenarios. In someone's. Mind. Where, they will. Think. I have, cases where people are driving down the highway and. They. Encounter, these blinking, lights, thinking. That they're approaching, an accident, scene and. That. Turns out to be a screen memory for. You. Know prior, to an abduction and as. You mentioned of course, you. Know seeing deer close. Up seeing owls. Are, very. Very common. People, many. People that I have worked with have a fear, of elf.
So. Yeah I'm familiar with Travis's. Case we. Were discussing, this just the other night at dinner. About. You know when he awoke, on, the craft. And, he. Encountered, I believe he it said three beams. That. Were there. In the room with him, now, are you talking about George that that. That. Could be a screen memory or I, mean. You know does he does he really know what they look like and I don't want to I, want, to come to him and get his opinion on that as well but you in general you deal with a lot of this stuff it's hard to separate, what's real and what isn't well, it's, fine it is and that's where you know we have to be very very careful those of us who are researching, this, very strange, you. Know phenomenon, but, we. Have had you, know I've been doing this 21, years now George. And my. Colleagues, you know the. Late but Hopkins I mentor, in dr. David Jacobs and then the late dr. John met I worked. With all of them and in. Discussing, our cases, and comparing. Notes. Of. The. Descriptions, of alien beings and how. People. Are taken. How they're abducted. You. Know we do now, have, been able to draw, from all the, similarities. From Han upon. Hundreds, of cases so. We're pretty. Confident. On. What. Certain. Types of alien beans look like you. Know we know that the, small, ones that. They call greys. With. A large eyes the. Small ones, seem. To be the abductors, there are the ones that are responsible for, taking a person out of their natural environment. And bring. Him in bringing, them onto the craft, then. Once, they're on the craft they encounter. Many. Different, types working. Together. The. Taller ones that look like the smaller old greys but they're taller. They. Seem to be more in charge I, mean, there definitely is. A, chain, of command, when. Someone. Is taken on board along. With the onboard a spacecraft the, UFO. But, you know we, were. Just watching, the surface, here you, know we're there's so much that we need to we, need to study because I, mean. From the from, the things that have been encountered. By. You know. Thousands. Millions of cases we're talking worldwide, this is a worldwide phenomenon. There, has to be you. Know just. As. Many different, types of you know alien. Beings different, species different type, so. From. What the description a wolf purse what Travis. You. Know described what he encountered, I. Have, found, that that. Description, is very. Common, Travis. Let's go back to you can you describe I let, just sort of skim over what the craft looked like I mean you described, as magical, and amazing how, big it was and. Then, what you saw your, first memory of being inside, of it when you woke up you know George. You. Know this, screen. Memory stuff memory. Support the sort of thing you, know. Him. One. Of the crew, men was saying well. This really. You. Know kind. Of a thing, anytime. We're confronted, with some really. Astounding. Event you know we, do, everybody, does some reality, test you know is there, kind of a pinch me kind of a thing you know this. Is a dream life you know is this really happening that yeah. And you know if that that's, the extreme you know I, went. Through all of those. Especially. Before I you, know you, know had the corroboration. You. Know making you. Know read. Reuniting. With the crude is some extent, and you know who had seen what I see so you, know why they were trying to persuade, me that you know that. I've been hit on the head I, had. Some. Delusion. Of some kind and there was a variety of theories. Falling, out there I was. Doing some. Reality, test so you. Know if you, carry that to the extreme you know what. Do you what do you really know for sure you know. Rema. Butterfly, I'm. Am. I really a butterfly, dreaming I'm a man I almost kind of philosophical. Question. You know could, this whole thing, it just in some gigantic, government. Mind-control, experiment. But, I'm right I, recall.
There. Are no internal. Inconsistent. So if it was any kind of a thing. Were there was an. Alternate, or a true reality beyond, my conception. It. Was the 100%, effective because everything. Jived. The. Craft, itself. Metallic. Yeah. Hey. I'll tell you what Travis I shouldn't ask you that and we're here music it's going to the break when we come back I want to describe the outside and then that. Moment when you wake up and you're inside this thing and what you see, stay, with us everyone. Travis. Walton, Yvonne Smith Steve, Pearce talking about one of the most unusual and, close encounter, experiences, of all time here on coast to coast am. Our. Discussion, with Travis, Walton and Yvonne. Smith and Steve, Pierce about an incident, well known as fire in the sky the abduction, of Travis, Walton in 1975. And the terrible consequences for. His friends back on the ground he was gone for five days, had. Some incredible experiences, on board the ship that we'll get into in a moment and, on the ground though his friends were suspected, of killing him and then even after he returned they were put through all kinds, of Hell by the. Law by, the media and in, particular, by the UFO. Community which, was deeply divided back then and pulled some really sneaky, stuff when. We come back we get into the meat of this story what Travis, Walton the saw onboard, that craft stay with us everyone on coast to coast am. Travis. Walton before the break I was asking you to describe the exterior, of the craft you, had he had said it was absolutely beautiful and stunning how big was it. It, was you. Know in the woods there's no. You, know common obvious compare, it to for a reference but you know it was probably, at, the most 25, feet diameter. But. A very. Imposing sight, and, totally. Distinct, the, the, skeptic. Suggestions. That, what. We really saw was. Jupiter. All lightning or the planet Jupiter is just absurd Jupiter. It's not Jupiter I guess if it's hovering right over the ground where you're standing yeah. Close. Enough that we could hit. It with a rock from the truck so I guess, a lot of people have done that with mixed results over the years. Well. Yeah I think they've shot shot, BB, guns and 22s, had crafts as well I don't think that's a good idea either. I wouldn't. Advise it all, right I I. Got out went closer and, you know it was it. Was metallic. Parts. Of it were glowing, and. It. Was basically you know like like, two pie pans put lift lip a. Disc. Sort, of angular. Had. But very very, distinct. I. Know, you're not a physicist, or an engineer, but I'll bet that the in the years since that you've talked to physicists. And engineers about, propulsion. How it was flying you have any thoughts on that yeah. Engineering. College. Rapid. City I think it was and they were very interested, in the sound it was making seeing if they could reduce, the the method. Of propulsion, from, that they. Have some really good questions. Well. And they're open to the story I'll bet yeah. Let's. Go to the, interior of the craft what do you see when you wake up I guess you have no idea how long you're out but what's the first vision that you see well. I was in and out it was indistinct you, know I I didn't, just come, to real clearly. It. Was kind of a period. Of time there where I'd start. To regain consciousness and go back, out but. The overpowering, sensation. Of the pain and then. Struggling, to breathe. And get enough air. You. Know this was, my main perception. At first and, I wasn't able to focus my eyes well everything, was blurry and he was a little double vision, but.
It Was when, I finally, could focus that, I, I. Could see this light fixture above me I could see the, metallic surfaces. Of, the ceiling but you know it was triangular, shaped and that was very, strange. But. I, didn't. Realize where, I was at first, it. Was eventually. It came to me that you know came. Back to me that I approached. This, object and. But. I still was just assuming, that I've been hurt them how and the crew. Had taken me to the hospital. So. I thought I was in some kind of medical facility, laying on and a gurney or operating, table this, device over my chest you know my chest really hurt and so I was afraid to move too much, that. I might make. Things worse, but. What I finally was able to focus my eyes I saw, these creatures standing. Over. You. Know I realized these weren't doctors, this was you know I realized I was, in. Trouble. You're. Describing it as triangular. But. Obviously the you know the outside the craft didn't look like that is it it's bigger to then that it would appear from the outside, yeah, the room I regain consciousness. And if the the room was shaped trying really not the interior, of the entire. Craft it was divided, up into various rooms and, passages. A very, small cramped, dimly, lit it was a hot. And humid and. You. Know once once, I left that craft it. Again, seems a lot bigger than. What. I'd seen in the wood so you, know to me. I'm. Not at all certain it was the same craft that there was it may have been some kind of transfer. Or. You. Know. That. They took you somewhere else yeah. Alright. You're laying on this this, slab. Or like a gurney, and, you you finally focus and you see some strange beings, around, you walk, us through that. Well. I. Immediately. Just, flipped, out. Basically. We're. Crazy with fear and. I. Tried. To hit him away from me but, I was so weak and him don't, push trouble, moving there it was just more of a push, I. Don't. Know if it was because he, was already, moving away from me or or, maybe there, was a lot lighter than I expected, but he he just moved easier, than I thought. And fell. Back into the other one but, I at the same time was trying to get.
Away From him so I rolled in the opposite direction and. That. Thing that they had over my chest fell off and, I. Was. Real, weak. And, unsteady. On my legs. So, I I backed, away from them then I just, tried, to keep my attention they just riveted. On them but. I bumped, up against, Michelle behind. Me and, I. Just. Looked, real quick to see what was behind me and I saw all these men she would spread out there and I described the biggest object there, and we started swinging, it in their direction to, keep. Him from coming any closer, they. Weren't close enough to hit but I was making threatening motions. Screaming, threats, at him and they, did stop and. That. Point, there, were they stopped and they were just staring at me was just such. Such. A. Incredibly. Intense. Feeling. Of of. Being, like they were you, know boring. Into me with their vision in, a way, you. Know that would that was the thing that I had. The most nightmares, about with them staring. At me like that, now. I'm thinking that maybe. The explanation, for that was that they were trying, that, moment, to, institute. Or regain. The control over me, and, it wasn't working and. You. Know some people speculate, that's you. Know if you really. Jacked on adrenaline. And fear that that, can overcome, their control. But I'm thinking more likely, you. Know that there was some kind of neurological. Injury. That happened, when the being. Hit me and, that. Prevented, the control, that is kind of scrambled, my circuit, and. In, the brainwave scan that I had later. By. Barrels. Neurological, institute did. Detect, an anomaly, that might. Suggest them, kind of injury. So. And. That. This thir being weird. Feeling. That I got from their intense. Gaze. May, have been just. Them you, know to, way from trying to move into my mind in a way where they could, you. Know calm me down or, get me back, under. I guess. You'd call it. Anaesthesia. Some kind. It. Wasn't working and so they decided. To I think. Probably, just to get, the heck away from, I mean before I, did. Damage, what. Did they look like I mean you know we we have the idea of what aliens look like now and it's pretty common from movies and TV and books but back then I don't think the same image was as well known but describe, what they look like well. You know I used, the term humanoid, and a lot of people think oh well that means they look like people but you, know to me humanoid. Just means two arms two legs and. You know eyes on the front of the head you know two eyes and the mouth you, know the kind. Of an arrangement, but. Definitely. Not human, smaller. Than. Four feet. Large. Hairless. Craniums. Huge. Eyes. Undersized. The, ears nose mouth. Jaw. Of a lower part of the face. Small. And undeveloped. I. Didn't. Detect any. Distinct. Emotion. No direct. Hostility. Or anything like that it's, just a that's, there that bothered me so much for some, they're. Kind of looking at you like we've got a wild man on our ship here what. Do we got to do with him, yeah. Because. I was I was, pretty pretty. Out of my mind, serious suing, and reacting. And thinking, in ways I never would, have if, I hadn't have been for this, losing. Control like that then. You got to explain, this in terms you know what people think well I would just I would, just remain, calm and I'd ask all kinds of really cool questions. You know but but, you know if. You really. That situation, especially the situation, I was in. Dimly lit a. Very. Hot. Humid. Cramped. Very. Small room. In, a lot of pain but, more. Than anything struggling. To get enough air nothing. Causes, panic, more than the feeling that you're smothering, you. Know that's the reason water pointyness, so effective, it getting, information. Out, of people is that you, know. Nothing. Scarier than not being able to breathe and. So. I think. All those things combined. To. Make me react. Much. Worse than I would have had. Those factors, not in in, there do, you have time to think like, you. Know what ultimately, is gonna happen to you are you thinking these guys are gonna kill me they're gonna eat me they're gonna probe, me they're gonna or. You're it's, just happening too fast even, think that far yeah, I wasn't doing. Much thinking, it was kind of an instinctive. Overreaction. Just a kind of a panicked. Desperate. Need to escape somehow, they'll. Fight my way past them get through the doorway, that was on the other side of them and and just, find a door somewhere and just jump. Out to the ground which I, was. Very. Foolishly. Assume he would just be. You. Know a few feet below you. Know that this thing was still in the woods but probably. Wasn't probably. A long. Ways, from there. Alright. So describe, the sequence of events how you did get out, well. I went. Looking for a way out when, they took. Off I, think I know actually scared, him away so, they just walked out of this particular, room they, just you know hurried out and, they, went in one direction so I went in the other direction. Down. This narrow, curving.
Passageway. And. It was so tightly. Curved, that, I couldn't, see very far behind me I couldn't tell if they were after me I couldn't. See very far ahead of me was I wasn't. Running into something worse. But. Still knowing that they had gone the other way maybe, you. Know keep going in that direction. I. Found, a room, that. I. Thought. Might. Have might, have doors, you know that would lead, out, of there. But. You know later on piecing. Together the, floorplan as I recalled. It I doubt, those, doors. Led. To. Outside, the craft more, likely, it, was just to another part of the ground, but. Nevertheless I was determined to try to open the doors get out somehow. You know. Surprising. Development, was that trying, to get to those. Doors, revealed. That by, standing, near the center of this room I was, able, to view. Well. Points. Of light whether. It was actually, viewing, where, the craft was that and this was just you. Know space, I was looking at or maybe it was just a kind of planetarium. Like projection. But. Anyway you know it. Looked like stars all around when, I stood there that the, center of the room where this chair was and. The reason we approached this chair was because it, was the only thing. Anywhere, around there they had any kind of controls or but and. I was had. One, thing on my mind get those doors open and get. Out of there not. Not a real sensible. Thing, in. My. Blank panic that thing, like hit the, thing I wanted to do. I. Was, unsuccessful. In getting the doors. Open. I did. At one point cosmas, carb mattered the move. Not. Not. As far as moving relative, to each other the entire pattern, sort. Of rotate, around, well. Is that the craft moving well. It was if it was just a map than it was just moving the map but it still had a very. Disorienting. Effect you, know it's already kind. Of unsteady, on my feet, but. Moving. All these points of light all. Around me. At. One time kind. Of you know upset, my balance momentarily, and. Then, I then, I had a little glimmer. Of common, sense come to meet it you know if these controls, actually were moving, the, craft residence we kind of map what's. That crash. You. Know I. But. Thinking, about pushing one, button and. And. Then that's when this human being. And. I, you. Know this is this is kind of strange to me you. Know I saw two types of being these these creatures and these people that, looked, so much like us the lake even could be from earth. But. In.
Account. After account in. News stories or, various. Retellings. That I've seen in the media, they. Just leave, that. Like. They're just not comfortable, with that they you know I just even the movie did that so, does this guy just walk in yeah. And you. Know he wanted. Me. To go with him and so I I went. I'm. Screaming, all kinds of questions and, not, getting any answers. But. That. Wasn't all that, suspicious. To me at first because, you. Had a helmet on his head and why, not be able to hear or speak with it harder. So. That. Wasn't so bad but when he he left me with some people who, were dressed like him, without. The helmet. And, when they wouldn't answer the question, that's. When I had real misgivings, about was this actually, a rescuer, was I still in, a. Serious, predicament. You, said he looked just like a human he had this helmet on how. Is he communicating, is his mouth moving or is he communicating, some other way. Well. The only communication. Going on was me yelling. Well. You said he wanted you to go with him did he gesture, yeah, it was a gesture and they took me by the arm and led and. You, know I was a resist, you know I didn't, feel this was threatening like you this is a recipe. No. Problem, you know, it. Was only you know when they started trying to get me to lay down on this table and, still. Wouldn't answer any, question, that I. Started. To have serious doubts about was, this arrest you now in. Hindsight. 35, years later I think it probably was just to. Help but. At that point it, seemed. Like. What, they were hiding from me was you, know maybe bad intentions, or something so I resisted. You. No avail there was overpowered. Me and knocked. Me out with some sort of a gas mask. Next. Thing I did was. Wake. You know ride. The highway. You. Said that you. Thought it was a rescue even. In hindsight it might have been a rescue abut the fact that these human, looking things were on the same craft with these other beings. Sure. Strongly, implies they're working in unison, yeah. It does you know but I speculated. A you know at the time that it could be that, the humans were doing, some kind of a forceful.
Intervention. And taking. Me away from them, but it was actually them, capturing. That ship or something but. Then on the other end. Of the spectrum you could have the. Small, beings being in charge and. The, human looking ones doing the bidding of the other there's. All kind I didn't see them together so, I don't know whether, it was cooperative. Or forceful, or or, what you, know it. It. Definitely, seemed that the human looking ones didn't belong on board the craft that I woke up on because it, seemed, too small for big people like us well. Unbeknownst. To you in between, the time when you're taken, and when you wake up on the side of the road five. Days had passed and all, hell is breaking loose for. Your friends, when we come back Steve, Pearce will help us pick up that story also be rejoined by Yvonne Smith I'm, talking with Travis Walton about an amazing series of events from, 1975. Paul McCartney and wings taking, us into the break this is coast to coast am, I'm. Talking, with Travis Walton and Steve Pierce about some unusual, experiences. Unusual. Is putting it mildly that they had back in November 1975. Also. Joined by Yvonne Smith who's helping us understand, the big picture and at, the top of the hour another member of the logging, crew who was there that fateful night gonna be joining us for a rare interview certainly, rare to have three of those guys together we're. Gonna get back into the meat of this story and what happened to Travis. Waltons buddies on the ground they, were really put through some, trials right, after this on coast to coast am, you. Vaughn Smith a question about the sort of the big picture you mentioned, some of your mentors in this field but, Hopkins, John, Mack David Jacobs you, know the research that they have done in the body of what you'd call abduction. Literature, those. Guys the leading lights of this field would suggest, that there is some sort of a connection to genetics, that when, abductions, happen it often happens to the same family over many generations that. That, who the whoever these visitors are they follow families, this, seems to be sort of an abduction by. Opportunity, sort of like a crime of opportunity how, unusual is, that. It's. Pretty. Unusual George. It, is very true, that abductions. Do run intergenerational. I mean, we have found that in hundreds, of cases. But. What. Happened, with Travis. And, his. Fellow loggers. Is. Very, unusual now. In. Having. An opportunity if, I have an opportunity to speak to each one, of the witnesses. You. Know there could be something, in the background of. Perhaps. Sightings. They've had sightings, of crap in, the past, perhaps. Their family members have had an, encounter, with the. UFO, in its occupants, I mean we you, know I I don't know the. History in the background, of of all the witnesses, but. You. Know we'll see, when. John Goulet comes on I've not had the opportunity, to speak with him I don't. Know, you. Know many people of course as you know George are are very. Reluctant. To talk about their. Experiences. And the, experiences of, their sampling members but. It could have been where. You. Know. Travis. And the, others were, at. The wrong place at the wrong time and. You. Know and what happened to Travis. Was. Just an unfortunate accident. Yeah they see here's. This crazy guy out in the woods who has the has. The intestinal, fortitude or, the the. Lack of marbles, to come walk under a flying saucer and sort, of challenges. Might, as well pick him up. I.
Left, When he says that you know he was, he, was a daredevil you, know he, challenged. And, we somebody had chased the bear I don't think too many people are gonna do that so. Yeah. It's just it's. A very, very. Unique case, George and the fact that you, know think about it I was having dinner with them and, speaking to the. Steve Pierce it had the opportunity, to meet him for the first time, before. They came to this narrow meeting and you, know I looked at him and just said and I took look to Travis, I said. Oh my god Travis, think you came back because who. Knows what could have happened, to. The rest of the crew I mean they could have been convicted and, sent. To prison for. Life or, worse. So. You. Know it really is an incredible. Very, unique. Case in in all. Aspects. But, I find it very interesting, that. You. Know Travis. When. He woke up if you saw the small. Being. That, he had, just described, that's. Very common, of course back. In 1975. They're, not as popular, as they are now they're out in the media everywhere. You. Know we've come to know and love these little gray beings but of course it makes my. Job a little. Bit more difficult, to separate. You. Know facts from fantasy. But. She also described. The. Human. Looking, alien. Beings, and, when. I first, started. Studying Travis's. Case many. Years ago when I first, got into this field and. Then. I started, working with my own cases and. These. People that my clients, were describing. These very. Human, looking. The. People, beings and wearing. A very tight fitting, blue. Uniform. I. Present, this in my lecture, series. Where. People have, still, not met, in my clientele. And they and, putting, the two pieces. Of artwork together, they, are amazingly. Similar, yeah. It's it's funny to hear like it's funny to hear skeptics, who find. It astonishing, and, ridiculous, that aliens, could look like humans well gosh that's ridiculous, we know what aliens look like well. Of course I, mean in. The skeptics, no all you know George never. Studied one case but. I thought it was just very interesting. That. Aspect, of Travis's, case and then I came up with you. In my caseload, and we, you know when I thought I have, something very unusual here. I would. Get together with, my colleague, who we we traveled, with really in the 90s when we did a lot of traveling.
Luxury. And all these different conferences. And we, sit there you know after, the conference was winding down and, you have a couple drinks you think I I need to ask this question and, I remember. You're asking, bud and asking. John. Mack you know what do you think of this I came, across this particular, case. And they. Just sat there said oh yeah we have, plenty you know I've got about 30 cases you. Know with the same description, so. I knew I was on the right track I knew, that people, that I was working with in my own clientele, were. Truly. Having. Experiences. All, right I want to bring Steve Pierce back and Steve Yvan, just asked a question about maybe. If she hadn't talked to you about whether there's family, experiences, are there do, you or your family have any kind of history of experiences. Like this yes. Before and after yeah. What. Will we live out there in, snowflake, my, grandparents, lived out no no we're out there with no electricity and you could sit out there at nighttime and watch. Them fly over this Mesa you, know the lights and stuff and. And. My, mom and aunt, and uncle had an experience, my mom says it won't my mom denies that she doesn't believe in UFOs but. Um. Then I've seen him afterwards, two up in the Four Corners area. Your. Mom doesn't believe it I know and as I understand, from reading Travis's. Book fire in the sky I mean the town itself was pretty divided, why don't you tell us in, those five days that it turns out Travis is on that ship what. It was like for you and the other members of the logging crew I had. To call the police you had to let him know and what. Was the reaction initial. And then subsequent. Whoa. Um. Town. Didn't believe us when we called the police he, came out to the Gillespie came out there and he. Looked for for, beer bottles I think he thought we were drunk or something and he. Made me he. Made Mike and two other guys go back with him in the other three we went back home, and. My mind Travis was dead so I wanted to go home because I didn't want to go out there and you. Know find a dead body and. Then the next day they when. They put that big old Posse together went back look, for him I snuck. Out the back door so the cops couldn't take me with him because I thought Travis was dead and they, were gonna go out there and find a body. And. Are you guys thinking hey we're gonna get charged for this if he doesn't show up we're gonna get charged oh yeah, we thought was going to charge for murder they were the cops are telling us that you don't need a body in Arizona that we get convicted. For murder so. Yeah. The whole week we thought you know before. The polygraph test alland. Alice's mother was telling us you know they're gonna rig this polygraph test to make you guys look guilty you know and so. I figured the polygraph test was going to be rigged too and. That was the, polygraph test was more scarier, going. That name was more scary than seeing Travis get zapped I was more scared that day so. Some time goes by he, Travis, is nowhere to be found the suspicion. Starts growing and they ask you to take a polygraph and, I know from reading the book that it was a subject, of some debate whether it was a good idea or not but eventually you did and then I guess the polygraph examiner is not giving you many clues about. What. His findings, are right yeah. They weren't telling us much of anything I don't. Think they believed we passed the polygraph test, you. Know because they weren't they weren't except they weren't telling us anything when we took the BAA graph just they separated, us all so. We couldn't talk to each other and. I was the first one who took the polygraph test and. You. Were pretty scared pretty nervous oh I, was scared to death I thought we was going to go to jail for murder did. When, you finish the test that the guy say anything to you you passed you failed or didn't know they just. Have. To I think it, felt like two or three hours all, the questions he was asking me but um, no. They say nothing. Not. Until after they talked to everybody and, the questions focus on did you see a UFO did, you kill Travis stuff. Like that um the. Questions one of them was if we saw you fall but, most of it was if. We did bodily harm to Travis, do I know anybody on the crew that they, would you know did bar harm timer, do you know did, I or anybody else did or you, know is mostly questions, about Travis, someone. Killing Travis or hurting Travis, why, did you believe that the test had been rigged. Because. I was 17 years old and I was believing everybody, else was telling me, how. Quickly did did, the media arrive, how quickly did the story sort of explode, and all kinds of journalists, show up by. The next morning, who. Was the first ones how did it happen were they hounding you. Yeah the, first one that showed it was National. Enquirer. Well. That makes sense and, then they come knocking on the door huh they come, knocking on the door or what what they yeah they came knocking on the door and what.
Your Other magazines, came knocking on the door but I I hid, after that I started, hiding from everybody. What. About the other guys oh. They're. In the picture I'm not in the picture of, the money they gave us the. Money what do you mean well. National, Enquirer, I. Guess. Gave. Us some money they're in picture together you know and, I'm not in the picture with them how. Much money did National Enquirer give and I'm assuming that's for not only the picture but for, somebody to tell them the story right, yeah, I really, don't remember how much they gave. Travis. Can answer that question veteran actor. Travis. Do you know I can't. Remember doesn't. Seem like very much. But lot. Was made out of that you know like like. You know basically, the accusation, was well they just made up the story for this money, but we didn't even know they had such a thing I never, even heard him halfway before, I didn't know what tabloid, meant I don't. I don't even know if they sold those in this little town. You. Know they're everywhere you can't go shopping without seeing with the checkout counter now, but back, then. So. A little, more from from you Steve about the media whore National Enquirer gets there what about TV people and other newspapers, yeah. Other newspapers, was there they chased me down for a long time even. Like. Six or seven months later. In. I think it was, July. National, star chased me down at the hospital, I was in the hospital all day and they. Chased me down they came to show Lowell well, in the hospitals on the other side as well but they came all the way over there just a down. On me and I was at the hospital for two days. Are. You reading the stories as they're coming out are you amazed by what was being written about you and Travis and the other crew members, well. No. I, got. In a semi, and I, stayed. Long hall for years and and. I didn't know they made a movie until, like 93, I was. Going in a truck stop and I was getting fueling and, winning, their paper with a few and I went to the restroom and I was fixing a head to learn New, Orleans from. Barstow, California. And. Which the TV rooms if anybody wanted to ride with me and there was Travis on HBO and that's how I knew they made a movie. Travis. Say okay, you come back you're, found on the side of the road you, obviously, you needed some medical attention right off the bat but you didn't want to go into town right here you're worried about what the reactions gonna be among and who's, going to be peppering, you with questions, yeah, you know the the, family had had.
A Lot of harassment for, many different directions and, so, the. Idea, was to just get, the heck out of Dodge and and, go, to Phoenix and try to get some medical, attention there, and that. Turned, out to be you, know rather. Disappointing. A first effort these. Are one. UFO, investigators. That you know had contacted. My brother, suggested. That, you know they could provide a medical, testing. That. Was you know more. Recognizing. Of the, special, you, know circumstances. Surrounding such, a thing. Dunh didn't work out at all but, well. Back up for a second this this UFO guy comes to town he tells everybody don't you worry I'm gonna help you get through this telling you your friends this stuff and. Among the recommendations. Is when Travis shows up he needs medical attention go, to this doctor in Phoenix tell. Me what you thought what you found in Phoenix when you go to to see this supposedly. Credible, medical, doctor it, was just basically a quack I mean he just was, representing. Himself as a doctor, and then he had pushed and then. He changed that well, you, know he was actually a medic, in the Marine Corps now, that's not a doctor you. Know and then in later years he changed that that. It was the Navy ro Marine, Corps so it was just it, was just, totally. Ridiculous, how you. Know somebody. With a diploma, mill. Degree. Making. Pronouncements about, me. When you know and. Examines. Or in any way you know, have, any interaction. This. Comes back to bite you doesn't it that the fact that you go to see this guy as they as the first medical professional, after your experience yeah. And you know the, fact that they lost the case because, they just couldn't, handle it. They. Immediately. Switched, from making positive statements. And negative things I guess, it boiled down to that if it's our case it's a good case and if it's not our case it's a bad case and there was quite, a few organizations, involved. And and it, you know how does a lot to do with rivalry. Between, between. Them rather. Than the facts of the matter well. What's what's the organization I, don't, even think it existed anymore but name the organization that had the case and sent you to this doctor, and then turned on you well, that was ground saucer, watch and there was a whole lot of claims and turned. Out that the people, involved. Had bogus, credentials, it, made, exaggerated. Claims about educational. Background, every, one up and so, they. You know they were pretty thoroughly discredited, in, the long run but they actually. Made you, know, inserted. Camp, but. Rather. Eventually, you know trying. To attack, the case I, know. What. Your attitude was in later years because, of your early experiences there, with UFO people and media people I mean a lot of people made promises, we're gonna tell your story right and it seems like they all, messed. With yet at one level or another yeah. It turned, me into a pretty. Wary, person. You know. Again. To be more like Steve you know not trust in any of them but. It. Finds some, people that were, reliable. And trustworthy and. The. Lorenz ins they helped you from a pro yeah. Very. Good. These. Are people that actually you. Know made in person. Investigation. Teams, of the site and met, me and, interacted. With dr.. Hynek. But. You, know seems. Like the attackers, were the ones who were just you, know experts. From afar and they had no personal, contact and. Kind, of on that same thing and you know phil, class was making all these attacks, and i was criticizing, him for being what i called an armchair, investigator. But, then I later found out, that he made all these in-person. Efforts, that he never, made. Any effort, to you, know refute. My attackers on. Him as a as an armchair researcher, he actually flies all the way to Texas to, take, Steve, out dinner and try to bribe me with $10,000.
That's Not keep that that's not inexpensive. At all I found, out that he flew to Phoenix and had somebody drive him all the way up to, the site never. Made him single, mention of that in his, extensive. Writings, in attacking the case and, I thought it rather odd that, he. Would go to that extent. That kind of expense, and then
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