Associate Director of Derivatives at Luxor Technologies | Ben Harper

foreign hey y'all welcome to the Texas blockcast we're  here today with Ben Harper associate director of   derivatives at Luxor Technologies he's calling  in from Calgary Alberta Alberta sent a trade   delegation down to the summit a few months ago  to uh to just brainstorm participate engage in   the industry they are the Texas of Canada or  as some might say Texas is the Canada or the   Alberta of Canada so then tell us a little bit  about your background I know you studied finance   and economics um you've got extensive experience  in that space how did you end up where you are   at Luxor today yeah well first of all Lee thanks  uh thanks so much for having me on on the podcast   here uh it's great to speak with you as you  mentioned we were we were down in in Austin   it was my my first time down there I've been to  Dallas a few times but first time to Austin with   that trade delegation you mentioned and we had  a fantastic time and tons of brainstorming and   really learned it a lot from what from what  you guys are doing as you mentioned and just   for everyone listening my my title at Luxor  Technologies is I'm associate director of   derivatives uh which is a new business line  we've just recently launched and we can touch   on that later I'm also uh on the mining and policy  committee for the Canadian blockchain Consortium   uh so you know trying to replicate some of the  good work that you've done down Texas up north   here and in terms of my background a little  bit all over the place I try to do a little   bit of everything but it's mostly been finance  and economics focused like you said that studied   finance and economics in school out of school  I did the the investment banking thing I worked   for National Bank Financial in Toronto as part  of Diversified Investment Banking team where   we covered power and utilities consumer products  Industrial Products and real estate and then after   that was on the equity Capital markets floor  briefly working on equity issuances for for   different public companies on the on the Toronto  Stock Exchange then flipped over from the private   sector into the the public sector I did a master's  degree at Columbia University in New York I did a   brief stint over in the Middle East working  in the Jordanian Royal Court in the economic   and fiscal Affairs team there I did a brief  stint for consulting firm back here in Alberta   uh before joining uh the government here in  Alberta the provincial government which would   be the equivalent of your state government I I  served uh in that government uh it would have been   uh last year and the year before uh served as a  policy advisor for the minister of Treasury board   and finance which would be the the equivalent  of your Treasurer and the premier which is the   equivalent of the governor in the United States  and and uh you know had enough of the political   thing uh got some good experience particularly  during the covet crisis Alberta was was uniquely   impacted not just because of of the virus itself  and the economic activity that they took with it   because the oil price crashed so there were  some very particular uh fiscal pressures on   the province uh and go to the political side want  to come back to the private sector was looking at   uh you know maybe going to Consulting back into  banking a bunch of different things and and I   had an old friend uh Ethan Barrett who people  from the mining Community might be familiar   with reach out and tell me about Luxor and what  they were doing and and what they were looking   to do to build up their derivatives desk so I was  brought on board to help to help build the others   desk and also do a couple other things at Luxor  but now I'm working at the uh the derivatives   Destiny Luxor which is really the first of its  kind and excited to tell you more about that and   uh working with our head of derivatives Matt  Williams who is a third generation uh Trader   out of Chicago he worked for the CME the NFA has  a past in in options trading and energy trading   and he even helped launch the Bitcoin Futures uh  product on CME exchange so extensive background   and the two of us and we're currently looking  expanding our team are really running the uh   the driver's desk at Luxor and excited about this  this new product and and really the the maturation   of the the Bitcoin mining industry uh but that's  really my story and how I got involved in this   and we want to get into more details about  y'all's derivatives products but before we   do I think most listeners will be familiar with  Luxor but just in case they're not uh Luxor is a   Bitcoin mining software and services company  they operate a mining pool I personally have   my machines uh few that they are I wish they were  in the thousands they are not but I have my s19s   um you know sending their hash power to the  Luxor pool and I get uh obviously I'm stacking   SATs through uh through that method and just  generally well thought of company doing it the   right way doing it and maybe a way that would seem  methodical but that's how you have to be in this   industry this is Hash rate as a commodity machines  are a commodity and you can't just get out over   your skis and so luxor's earned a lot of respect  by being very methodical in their processes okay   so this this derivatives um product that you guys  are developing is very important for the industry   you know I was Steve Canard the tbc's director  of Bitcoin mining analytics is quick to tell me   and remind me that in the oil and gas industry you  don't get investment Capital unless you're hedged   and in the Bitcoin mining industry it should  be the same way right we should see lenders   start to require hedging for as a precondition  for investment uh so do you expect that we are   close to that have you heard Rumblings of that is  that why you guys started this product because you   eventually it's going to be a requirement or not  maybe not a uh official requirement but but a de   facto requirement yeah so I mean first of all  um Arc like the way we view this and just kind   of take a step back but like the way we look at  this like I think you mentioned is commodity at   Luxor we see hash rate as a commodity um it is a  new native digital commodity yeah Bitcoin miners   we see it as producers of that commodity and we  believe it Luxor that they should have access to   the same Suite of financial products that allow  them to de-risk and to optimize their operations   the producers of other Commodities have and like  you said Lee and like Steve from TBC has often   pointed out uh this is the standard they want  the gas industry in agriculture and electricity   and so you know we're not Reinventing the wheel  here but we do have a new asset class and we   believe that just you know basic first principles  is we want to be the ones that that build those   financial products for minors specifically uh so  that they're able to employ hedging strategies   they're able to have some certainty into their  business planning and then hopefully that will   help facilitate access to Capital we just you  know as we see this this industry mature the   operations get larger and more sophisticated the  integration with the energy sector becomes becomes   greater you know that's that's the direction  we see this going and and that's why we really   launched this product is is we think this is  a commodity producing business and like any   other commodity producing business they should  have access to the financial products that that   help them you know make their make their make  their uh make their operations more efficient   amazing um it's tough to launch a product like  this in a market where people just wish they had   been hedging you know a year ago and now they're  some of them are in a position where they don't   think they can afford to hedge what would you say  to that kind of if that comes up in a conversation   yeah well you know obviously Capital  constraints are a big Topic in the industry   uh and particularly right now and and you're  at you're absolutely right you know of course   you know looking in hindsight and hindsight's  always 20 20 would have been you know better to   hedge out you know before before the draw down  than after but the reality is is a lot of these   products didn't exist uh before the before the  big drop down in particular our product uh which   was only launched in beta phase in October and  and in standardized kind of non-beta phase in   January 1st only 20 days ago so I you know I don't  think miners really had the had the opportunity to   employ some of these strategies and to hedge the  way that they would I know that there's you know   for example Bitcoin Futures which which are which  are a valuable hedging instrument but of course   uh miners on the revenue side are exposed to more  than just the price of Bitcoin right miners are   exposed to what we call it Luxor hash price  which takes into account four variables right   there's your bitcoin price that you're exposed to  there's your network difficulty you're exposed to   and also transaction fees in the block subsidy  and so you know when we looked at the market   we saw that there was Bitcoin Futures but it's  really not a product that's specific to miners   that looks at the risk exposures they have on  their on their at least Revenue side you know   they have power purchase agreements they can hedge  their cost side the Bitcoin Futures are great for   hedging part of your revenue and and definitely  your balance sheet but we wanted to launch a   product that allowed miners to to Really lock in  on the cash flow portion of their businesses and   and so you know we're as a mining pool and as  as our content site we call Hash rate index I   should I should say or plug it plug it there as  well we really see hashary as a commodity Elixir   um and and we have an index where we value it's  called our hash price index we we take you know if   you have one pet a hash or hash rate how much can  you how much can you expect to earn in a 24-hour   period that's that's up live on our website and  as a mining pool we're really the spot market for   for hash rate and so that's the way that we view  it that's the way that we see it uh and and so   you know hopefully with this product now you know  hindsight's 2020 capital is considering those are   obvious concerns and and and totally get that  but it you know our view is that uh looking to   facilitate that access to Capital in the future uh  like you said hedging strategies I think will be   will be very important and particularly with the  with the you know you could say it's even Carnage   in the in the blockchain space there's not a lot  of capital I think Capital coming you know going   forward at least for the next little bit will  have to come from from outside the sector you   know one one area that that looks promising to  me is the energy sector particularly with the   with the higher energy prices that we're seeing  in our Jeep bull market there's more capital in   in that space and we think that a hedging product  like this which is analogous to to what people   in that industry are used to seeing and being a  really a prerequisite for for facilitating access   the capital I think that you know a product like  like this that we have that allows you to de-risk   your operations in such a volatile Market well  ultimately you know help bring capital in but   of course you know like there is tough times  out there and and you know we want to we want   to build products so that in the next bull  market uh we can be in a better position and   hopefully you know kind of lessen lessen the  hurt that's out there in the next bear Market   it makes sense I I've heard you describe what  how this works and I think for those that are not   traders that haven't grown up with understanding  commodity markets that might be helpful   um and secretly I kind of want to hear you explain  it again because uh it's not the most digestible   of Concepts could you explain how it works from  start to finish on the buy side on the sell   side what it looks like yeah so uh just kind of  take a step back again starting and just kind of   looking at the product again we see hatch racing  commodity excuse me we don't want to build the   entire Suite of products that miners can use  and and when we looked at what was available   right there's power purchase agreements on your  cost side you have Bitcoin derivatives that help   you hedge your Treasury and your Holdings  but there wasn't really much on the revenue   or cash flow side uh you know you we saw a small  Patchwork of what's called physically delivered   forwards that were out there there was there was  Bitcoin Futures which existed and so we want to do   something hash rate and and minor specific so like  I said I we have this hash price index already as   as part of our site and that's kind of the first  thing to understand is that there's an index for   what you're earning as as you're Mining and that's  what you can expect to earn from your mining pool   and so our derivatives products are based around  that index uh the first product that we decided   to launch was called it's called a non-deliverable  forward okay and so a forward is really your most   simple type of derivative although derives  of course are are a complicated topic   um and what a forward is is it's just an  agreement between a buyer and a seller   to deliver a pre-agreed quantity of a commodity  on a future date at a fixed price and there are   typically two types of forwards one is called a  physically delivered forward uh which you actually   deliver the commodity physically to the seller and  then the other type is called the non-deliverable   forward where instead of actually delivering and  paying the full purchase price for the commodity   what you do is you pay the difference between  the final market price of that commodity and the   pre-agreed fixed price that Delta that difference  between those two prices is paid from the buyer to   the seller if the price of the commodity uh Falls  and from the seller to the buyer if the price   of the commodity Rises and so you know there's  there's pros and cons to physically delivered and   cash settle uh we we decided to stick with cash  Kettle just because it's the kind of simplest easy   to use and we believe it'll bring more liquidity  into the sector you know part of the problem with   a physically delivered forward and these have  been tried before in the mining space is external   Capital doesn't quite know what to do uh with with  physically delivered hash rate you know imagine   you're an investment firm in New York or or London  uh you would much rather not have to actually take   delivery of hash rate and that's what you see in  in derivatives markets just kind of generally the   cash flow markets tend to tend to be much larger  but of course there are drawbacks and you know in   terms of upfront financing and things like that  which physically delivered forwards can can meet   but but for us we started with what's called  a non-deliverable forward and that's sort of a   complicated explanation apologize but this is kind  of the background now our product is fairly simple   we match buyers and sellers along three variables  our contracts are really just three variables   there's what we call your unit hash price which is  that pre-agreed fixed price that we were talking   about so if you're a minor you're able to sell  forward at a pre-agreed fixed price there is the   daily hash rate that you're putting under the  contract and then there's the number of days   that you want that contract to run um in terms of  the hash price that you can pre-agree to we have   two different classes of products we have our  US dollar denominated product and we have our   BTC denominated uh product the BTC denominated  product protects you in terms of your exposure   on the network difficulty and transaction fee  side whereas the US dollar uh contract sees   uh protection as well on the on the Bitcoin  denominated price and different miners with   different obligations and different strategies  to use those products differently in terms of the   durations we have standardized monthly contracts  that run one two and three months forward but we   also have the ability to to put together Custom  Custom contracts the only real limiting factor is   our ability to match buyers and sellers amongst  those three variables that I mentioned and then   of course at Luxor on top of matching buyers and  sellers we also manage counterparty risk so you   face Luxor when you're trading these products you  don't have to worry about tracking down uh the   buyer the seller on the other side of the trade  all parties face Luxor we also have a position   manager tool where you can monitor all your trades  your profit loss keep track of charts and things   like that we act as the settlement agent as it's  settled to our index and we also take care of   all regulatory reporting this is a cftc regulated  product so we take we take care of all reporting   on on the Luxor side and and that's kind of the  the broad overview of the product you know we can   get into how you know Miners and investors are  using these products but that's that's kind of   the broad overview and the rationale of how  the product came to be that's amazing it's   it's incredible that level of sophistication that  we're getting to in the Bitcoin mining space and   we need to be there it's just happening much more  quickly than in commodity markets in decades past   and that's probably just a function of  the compression of time you know there's   that great book uh thank you for being late  about this the amount of change that we see   um in a year is the same amount of change that  are the greatest Generation saw in a decade   so we do have a compression of time due to  this technological advances and to Moore's   Law and all sorts of other things so it doesn't  surprise me that we're advancing this fast but   it's really cool to see that that Luxor is the  one that's leading the charge here so let me   just go back you said something that you could  uh settle in dollars or Bitcoin so if somebody   has like a Bitcoin denominated loan as a minor  would in that case would they want to hedge   in Bitcoin yeah so that's typically where we're  you know if you're seeing a minor use and and   when I say you know minor and hedger typically  what we're seeing is if you're hedging your   revenues you're you're selling these products  and so typically what we would see right is   is miners are are hedging in the currency of  their obligations right and so like just like   you said why would someone use the Bitcoin sir  there are miners that have Bitcoin denominated   obligations and so what our product allows you  to do is sell forward at a locked in uh hash   price yeah in terms of Bitcoin and so you can  get certainty in terms of your your production   of Bitcoin regardless of what transaction  fees and network difficult end up difficulty   end up being amazing and that's really yeah and  that's really the mechanism where it helps you   facilitate access to Capital right is because if  you can have certainty about what you can produce   and the price that you're going to produce it  for uh then lenders investors are more likely   to participate it's absolute Game Changer now  who's taking the other side of the trade usually   yeah so uh we have a very diverse set of of Market  participants and and and and like you're alluding   to and for people that might not know and a  traditional uh derivatives Market you have two   sides you have your hedgers and you have your your  investors or speculators sometimes they're called   um we're seeing on the buy side some really  interesting things happen so like you said   you have your traditional kind of uh buy side  Finance firms crypto hedge funds different kinds   of investors coming in uh we're also seeing quite  a bit and this is I think might be interesting for   Texas specifically is we're seeing quite a bit  of biaside liquidity come from hosting companies   uh and that's a really interesting use case that  we didn't necessarily see when we designed this   product but yeah if you're a whole thing company  what you have to remember is that you have instead   of your Revenue uh being denominated in hash rate  and hash price that's your obligation your yeah   your your your obligations are in hash price  and hash rate and so some of these companies   will make uptime commitments to to their hosted  clients uh and and when they're you know shutting   down because of uh because of the spike in Energy  prices and participating in demand response for   example what our product allows them you to do is  is hedge out your costs and by becoming in on the   buy side the opposite side of a traditional mining  hedge the buy side you're hedging your costs and   and while they're shut down right they're they're  exposed to run-ups in the price of Bitcoin or   drops in network difficulty and so our product  allows them to to lock in their costs and and   be a hedger but on the other side of the trade  from from a regular Miner that's amazing so so   put that in the context of like a Texas why  is that more important in Texas because you   mentioned some words there that I want to call  out you know demand response if someone's got   some ancillary Services obligations um talk a  little bit more about how this provides them   more certainty as a Hoster yeah so um like like  you said one of the and just taking a step back   one of the advantages of Bitcoin mining and  why it has so much potential to stabilize the   grid incentivize Renewables uh even when  we're you know talking off-grid and and   capturing methane emissions is that it's a  completely location agnostic interruptible mode   and particularly that interruptible side is really  important because it has flexibility that other   loader resources just just don't have uh and and  so you know some hosted miners for example will   make commitments to their clients in terms of how  much uptime uh they will have uh for their their   Bitcoin production but of course as you know there  are times when when miners in Texas need to shut   down so that the rest of the grid can can make  use of that in uh energy particularly around the   winter when everyone's using the air conditioning  in the summer uh it can become uneconomic or there   might be better economics in participating in  demand response programs for for the hosted for   the hosted company but however what you have to  remember is is if you're shutting down your mining   operations you you do have an obligation to your  client in terms of paying them what would have   expect they would have expected to earn in terms  of what all trade economics are and so by buying   and so by buying our product uh it essentially  Hedges you head you're taking a long position   on hash price and so since a cash price is a cost  for these hosted operators by buying our product   you take partake in the upside of hash price so if  hash price goes up your obligations to your mining   clients also go up however you would be profiting  off of our contract and that's how it that's how   it acts as a hedge is it kind of layers on top  of your operations uh and as long as you you know   set the parameters right to what you need it can  act as uh it's essentially a swap you're saying   look I'm willing to give up I'm willing to give up  downside uh in terms of my hash price to be able   to capture the upside so that I can make sure that  while I'm shut down and I'm you know participating   in demand response I'm still able to meet all  my obligations to my hosted mining clients   yeah I I want to make sure everybody understands  how much of a game changer this is because   the conversation has always been if you're  aggressive and bullish you go into mining   if you're conservative and you have conservative  investors you go into hosting and so this really   flips that narrative on its head and saying you  can do either you can be a Hoster and be bullish   and be long and take part of that upside and  that volatility or you can be a minor and be   just commodity commodity Centric hedged modest you  know returns or you could be somewhere in between   absolutely right this is this is just a tool and  I think what we'll see is that the strategies that   miners able employee will become more and more  sophisticated I mean as these are you know you   spend a lot of time with the miners these are  brilliant brilliant people and they'll find   even more complicated even more efficient better  strategies I think with a tool like this to to   employ than than we can think of but it definitely  unlocks you know what's what's available to other   sectors allows you to to employ a bunch of  different hedging strategies and and really   optimize your operations in a way that wasn't  uh available before a product like this existed   so what's on the horizon what's next um well like I said I mean I can't say too much uh  but uh just like our thesis here rightly is it's   pretty simple um we think this is a new commodity  uh and you know it needs all the same Financial   products exist that in other Commodities so uh  we're not Reinventing the wheel we believe this is   a new asset class and and we want to provide the  same tools that other commodity producers have and   so you know whether that's physically delivered  you know whether that's options uh they're all   on the the the table right now and we're having  conversations with minors in Texas and Canada all   around the world I try to get a sense of what  works best for them and and that'll be what's   next but but really I mean we want to have the  whole Suite of products here we want it to be hash   rate specific so that miners miners have a tool  available that's specific for their operations   so it's amazing it's it's absolutely amazing and  I think um you guys are on the bleeding edge of   this I wonder what the TBC can do and what others  can do on the front because obviously we've got   these lenders that have extended themselves  that are that are Bitcoin native lenders that   they're probably not um looking at making new  loans new sizable loans but there's going to be   uh traditional lenders that come in that are are  going to be providing financing to this industry   and I'm thinking that's who we need to convince  right is the traditional lenders because I doubt   that any and I don't want to say any names but  we all know kind of who I'm talking about there's   some companies out there that are not going to get  burned again all right they're probably already   talking to you but they don't have as much Capital  deploy right now because they've been burned over   the last nine months I'm wondering if the next  conversation and you guys are probably 10 steps   ahead of this you're already talking to these  Banks but the traditional lenders uh probably   don't need a lot of convincing because you've  just shown the Playbook of why this is needed   yeah and you know we've gotten very positive  feedback from those conversations that we that   we've had and I also should mention like those are  the type of companies that are also participants   in the in this market right because this is a tool  for them as well right they're making loans they   have you know positions in companies that are long  hash rate uh and so a product that allows them to   go short hash rate uh allows them to effectively  you know hedge some of their exposure to those   lending contracts as well so it's it's not only  a tool for minors that I think you know lenders   and financers will see that it's attractive but  it's also a tool that that lenders and financers   are using and looking at using as well to de-risk  their own Investments so you know hopefully that   helps bring more capital in the industry because  because really that's what's needed right now   yeah it is well let's let's add a little levity  here uh and think about kind of this rival this   friendly rival we have between Alberta and  Texas uh it's more of a coopetition I think   yes if if Alberta and Texas were to get into a  boxing match who do you take uh well it uh I'll   say okay well I'll give a politically correct  answer I'll say if if it was just everyone in   Texas first everyone in Alberta I'll give it to  you guys because of the the population difference   that we text about 29 30 million or I guess maybe  what 20 25 million about about there yes word is   only four and a half million uh but uh anything  per capita I feel pretty confident that Alberta   would would pull out on there you go that's  a great answer that's a great answer okay so   as the mining industry faces I guess what I'll  call unprecedented challenges because they're   probably press there's precedent for it but we're  at a much bigger scale right now than we were   when these challenges arose you know four five  six years ago um what are you seeing in Canada   that we need to look out for here I I was reading  an article the other day about I think it was one   of the it was one of those southeastern states I  don't know Kentucky or South Carolina or something   like that where there was citizens of the state  that were organizing against a mining Farm   because and they were like local people you  know they weren't just like people driving   in from the city you know saying oh we should  they were local people and they were arguing   they were they're organizing against the mining  Farm because of the noise and we know that a lot   of mining in at least south of you know call it  South of Nebraska is going to go to immersion uh   and probably even in the colder climates too  just because of the the way you can regulate   the temperature of the machines so that's not as  much of a factor but are you seeing that kind of   opposition from like the Grassroots because  we haven't really seen much of that in Texas   um most of it has been kind of just journalists  or Elites in different parts of the country   stirring up but this was the first time  that I saw it from like a rural constituents   because normally the rural constituents are like  heck yeah we're bringing we're bringing new jobs   we're bringing tax revenue we're bringing  New Roads new infrastructure bring it on   um but are you seeing that a little bit in Canada  in Alberta yeah oh I I mean nothing particular   nothing specific like that that I'm seeing but  I think like the the broad conversation that   we're having in Canada is very similar to what  you're having in the United States uh you have   a really different perspective state to state  uh you have National governments that are uh   let's just call it a little more skeptical and I  think we have a little more work to to do there   um you know in terms of it's almost a mere  story really you have States like Alberta   and Texas which are really trying to embrace  the sector finding ways to take advantage of   this new technology make their energy systems more  efficient capture stranded methane and then there   are you know states that are taking the complete  opposite approach uh like New York or a Quebec   uh which are placing moratoriums on on new mining  new mining operations I think like when I look at   this I I don't I think there's a there's a in the  in the sector there's just an actual inclination   that criticize the government which I think  obviously is fair enough I could sit here and   criticize uh particularly the Canadian governments  all day but I do think it's incumbent on us as   an industry right to to make sure that that we're  doing things the right way you know like we we all   know that if you're placing a mind in the middle  of a residential area and of course nobody's   really doing that but if you are then there are  real noise concerns and things like that that can   impact other people and I think it's incumbent  on us to to to really do things the right way to   engage with Regulators to to engage with people  to to tell people that the the uh the the the   potential for this uh but I think it's a it's  incumbent on us as an industry to do things the   right way make sure we're getting our message out  there make sure we're selling our benefits uh and   make sure we're addressing some of people's real  real concerns uh that you know and annoys noise   concerns are not just specific to Bitcoin mining  but uh you know one one bad actor can can make a   bad name for an industry so I think it's incumbent  on us to you know develop ways to do things the   right way work with industry associations like  yourself that do a fantastic job representing   the industry talking to communities talking to  local regulators and legislature uh legislators   um I I do think that you know we have to make  sure we're doing things the right way and I   think that's by and by far the case uh but  you know we can always do better and I just   I always like to you know not not place blame on  on others but you know kind of internalize and   improve ourselves and I you know I think that we  can do a little bit better as an industry and and   I think you know things ideas you know these are  just brainstorming but ideas like you know maybe   developing what we've talked about in Alberta is  an operator's code of conduct you know having some   you know self-imposed uh regulations in terms of  you know decibels in terms of noise uh so we're   not impacting local communities and that can be  something that we can do as an industry we don't   have to wait for government to do wise words  yeah it's always better to self-regulate than   have a regulator who means well but doesn't have  the same Nuance come down and bring the hammer   absolutely and as you know on the on noise and  you've probably been to a bunch of Mines there   are ways to reduce noise uh there are ways to do  things properly and most minors are already doing   it yep yep well Ben this has been a fascinating  conversation I kept you longer than uh normal and   not longer than I should have I know you've got  things to do but thanks for sharing this with our   audience um where can they go I'm assuming we  just send them to to y'all's website luxurious   website to find more about these products  yep luxor.tech is where you find more about   Luxor if you're interested in learning about  our our mining pool or our uh you know newly   launched firmware that's going to be coming out if  you're interested in just Bitcoin mining content   generally uh hash rate index is the place to find  that it's our content website and then if you want   to learn more about derivatives it's luxor.tech  derivatives and you can find me on Twitter at   Ben underscore s underscore Harper perfect thanks  man yeah thanks so much Lee really appreciate it   you want to be part of the future that we  are crafting here in Texas join the TBC today hey it's Amy click over here to subscribe click   over here for more content  and we'll see you next time

2023-01-31 14:59

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