Advancing Construction Trades with Technology & Training | Digital Builder Podcast

foreign [Music] [Music] you're listening to autodesk's digital Builder podcast a show that inspires construction professionals to innovate and use technology to improve how they build our world I'm Eric Thomas and I've been working in construction for nearly a decade and now I have the privilege to sit down with industry Trailblazers to hear how they're solving construction's biggest challenges in redefining the future of the built environment foreign welcome to another episode of autodesk's digital Builder podcast I am your host Eric Thomas today I am sitting down with Ron Maguire a program administrator from the international training institute and Ken Schneider training specialist from the United Association and we are live at Autodesk University it is day three the Expo just opened up and I can feel the excitement in the room how are you guys feeling today yeah I'm feeling great this is Ken Schneider uh great to be here Eric one of the best shows out there let's just face it right let's just be real about this whole thing I appreciate that I I'm gonna have to keep that clip and send that one to my boss when we're done and if she sees me slippy the 20 bill please don't say anything all right it was only 20. all right we can tell the most okay show in the digital uh construction realm how does that sound perfect how you doing Rod I'm doing great thanks Erica this is a pleasure to be here I appreciate the invite and uh another great Autodesk University so really excited for this uh this episode yeah it's great to be back in person again you know it's been three years and everything is just really getting started well not true we are day three so everything's kind of coming to a wrap but everybody's still excited there's Partners everywhere we're really energetic about what's going on today so I've got to handful of questions for you and first and foremost I was hoping each of you could tell me a little bit about your organizations and the role that they play in the construction industry can could you kick us off sure so our role in the construction industry is huge so anything having to do with pipe that's United association's work we make sure that we get our members trained both for the physical install and the digital install it's so important excellent Ron where uh where do you guys sit in the construction ecosystem well um the international training institute is the training arm of the smart organization so sheet metal air Rail and transportation Union and the the digital environment and the Bim VDC environment is huge hugely critical these days and uh we train our members to be able to go in and and do these coordinations whether it's with Revit AutoCAD et cetera so it's it's a it's a vital part of the construction project and I'm hearing more and more contractors especially talking about training in a really different way than we might have heard in years past and the technology has changed both in the hardware and the software side so I'm really excited to hear a bit more about what each of your teams are doing but before we get going could you share a little bit more about the importance of including a technical education for both of your organizations and what key skills each of you are really trying to develop with those people so uh what we've been doing at the UA is really pushing for all types of job site technology as well as the design factor so one of the things that that I've been pushing fire over the last uh I'm going to say six years is really to get our members comfortable with Revit some a little more than others right at least if they see it they've witnessed it experienced it it helps our contractors do a better job we also have a lot of individuals who've done even more than that they've taken a path through the digital world and they've actually created and and companies for VDC so it's been pretty awesome to be part of this super awesome to see some of their success it's it's great looking back I mean I've I've been touching the construction industry for about a decade now and when I when I you know step foot coming out of college nothing was digitized it was all still big Blueprints and like here's your not great PDF and from there it's just changed so much we have purpose-built tools we have things that are made for what people are trying to do instead of trying to slide technology that doesn't really fit and shove it into a new box to meet our workflows Ron how about you how's that how's that all shaping up at your organization it's it's really taken hold um you think about like like I said Eric the the days of plans on projects you know big rolls of plans on projects that they're they're gone for the most part yeah you know so what we do with our apprentices is you know all of our apprentices for the last four years they're they're getting iPads so everything is digital all our curriculum's digital uh they they we just redid our reading plans and specifications curriculum and that's all 100 digital all the plans are going to view through uh Autodesk construction cloud and uh the specifications submittals Etc so technology is not going away we either have to adapt and teach the Next Generation or we we fall behind really and in the the digital first approach that you're talking about right now I'm really encouraged to hear because when you set people up from the start with that they carry that to the projects that they're going to they carry that to their employers and I think there's an expectation by many of the younger people coming in that if you don't have these things you're not necessarily going to be an interesting employer to them when they're looking at the full ecosystem where you see only paper based or somebody who's got you know drone technology and iPads and everything's digitized if somebody's a tech savvy person or interested in becoming one it's very easy to see the lien that they're going to take in that direction and I'm curious you you work with all these big organizations of course when you're placing all this Talent is there more demand what is the expectation for for the apprentices that you're training at this point now do they require those skills or is it still kind of a nice to have no I'm going to say nowadays they require it uh but let's face it the kids they've grown up with iPhones and iPads so swiping left right they're used to that that's nothing new for them so really I think the the burden is on us to make sure as you mentioned earlier that we have the curriculum that excites them uh motivates them and moves things forward so um no it's it's really exciting times right now to deal with apprentices to get apprentices in to attract apprentices yeah just to add to that I mean I think you know can I I think we can probably I can probably say this you know we look at technology and what it's done to the to the art industry the construction industry and it's it's it's really evolved and you know you look at whether it's robotic total stations uh 3D laser scanners you know all that technology the construction schedules of projects these days have gotten a lot less you know I've been in the trade for 30 plus years and I think when you know when I started it was scheduled really really long yeah design bid build only like that was like just the approach you know it's very different yeah exactly but we're still doing the same amount of work in less time and if we don't you know you think about a younger generation if if we don't show them these tools I mean that that that brings them to us you know these these these Technologies and you know because we're not drawing things on paper anymore you know if you can show them whether it's using an iPad whether it's using you know a number of different technologies that are on the project that's that's going to generate interest and I think ever probably tires a little bit about talking about the labor challenges and labor shortages but especially in construction it's so important that we have to talk about it you can't not talk about that elephant in the room because in five or ten years the problem is only going to worsen and so with that said at least that's my opinion how is how has technology fit into that part of the conversation is it helping improve the challenges we're having with labor or how does the relationship there help possibly solve some of those challenges so I want to say the UA is really looking at the idea that if we can get more people trained on the software they already know the trade right they know the skill set so if we can get them trained to do the digital drawing we're actually going to save labor hours which obviously releases a little the pressure of the labor shortage but we have to get our people in those seats that's the most important thing yeah I agree I think you know the technology is is obviously going to help the labor shortage or the the process of the of the job so we have to like Ken said we have to train our people that are you know have the knowledge because not everybody can do these you know use these technology advances that are out there whether it's you know an iPad is one thing but to use a robotic Total Station or 3D laser scanner and you know do all that processing it you got to have knowledge so I think it's it's extremely critical that you know we as you know our my organization the ITI or the organization I work for and you know I believe Ken and the UA is in the same boat you know we have to train these individuals and we have to provide them this training to be successful and help our contractors be successful bottom line is you know our contractors are going to continue to you know bid these bid these projects we have to make sure we're we're we have the workforce that's capable of doing the doing the projects absolutely and that's one scary thing that I've I've seen kind of in The Ether of construction right now is there's there's a lot of work and sometimes the contractors want a bid on it but they don't have the bandwidth simply because they don't have enough people to actually staff the number of projects they're chasing and it's it's an interesting dance that you have to do at that point too because you want to preserve your relationship with the owners especially if they're a owner that you work with regularly and turning down work doesn't feel good but if you don't have that Staffing to fill those gaps you also set a bad expectation with your owner if you come in and then you miss your schedules or have to change a bunch of conditions to you know meet the challenges the industry's facing right now although I think with the last three years a lot of owners feel a little more flexible when they're talking about the challenges because they're very much aware of it but sometimes you're are contractually obligated and if you're contractually obligated and the owner points at that and says you're going to do the thing there's a lot of room to get in a little bit of trouble unfortunately it's a it's an interesting moment yeah no doubt about it uh you know you mentioned the idea that sometimes our contractors say you know what I have too much on the books and I just can't stretch any farther I don't know not only labor right because there's a material shortage too uh so that's the whole supply chain issue is is real right so if they can't get the materials that they can't get the labor they're just not going after some of that work and then that is a challenge for us too it's it's a tough thing to balance and I've seen a lot of really Innovative and interesting things happening in the last few years regarding materials as far as selecting different things or really increasing the visibility into the supply chain so we can be more active about the choices we're making as early as possible but sometimes if something's not available it's just not available and you know you fill the Gap as best you can but it's a it's a challenging moment right now in construction and there's a lot of uncertainty out there but I think the technology that we're talking about right now is most certainly one of those tools that we can leverage where if we're able to be more efficient and we're able to increase productivity with the resources we have even though that issue is still you know in the back of everybody's head and we're all thinking about it I feel like the the tech empowered contractors and the talent that is filling this in this industry is in a much better position to fill those gaps than we might have been even three four five years ago especially since we marched forward in digitization uh recently in a way that we'd never seen in any history in construction so I'll just say for me it's it's been strange for us to even have a change in Attitude uh you know I'll say years ago for us to say hey we're trying to use technology to save labor hours uh that would just be Taboo in our industry uh but now it's it's recognized that we have to do this in order to make sure that we do meet the demand out there yeah the the perception of technology is coming in to take my job or have a scary element to it I'm I think that myth is starting to to go by the wayside and I'm very thankful for it because augmentation is is really the the focus now and when we're so resource constrained it's very easy to qualify to your team you go you're not being eliminated we're helping you in some way and I had a really great uh conversation with somebody from skanska yesterday about Robotics and the the niche that fills and I think it's going to increase in in the coming years and it's a really exciting moment and it's going to help people stay safe and healthy and also hopefully fill some of these gaps that we're seeing and struggling with right now I'm interested how are you stepping into the industry right now in attracting more people that come into the industry so I've heard others call it kind of a perception problem sometimes what are what are your organizations doing to to bring new skills into into construction and new talent that you might not expect or find in other places well you know from from its standpoint you really look at the technology that's out there and and like I said the younger generation these are things that interest them you know can can I refer to as you know they were born with iPhones iPads you look at that technology that's out there and you know whether it's playing a video game you know running a running a robot on a job site using um Revit AutoCAD you know you guys were talking about change and changes change isn't available right yeah but sometimes it's hard it's yeah it's it's hard to manage especially when you're so resource constrained to address the train change head-on anyway it's a tough situation yeah and you know I'm as guilty as anybody you know I've got a big AutoCAD background and when rabbit came around it's like well I don't need to learn rabbit you know but I was wrong when I when I looked at what rabbit can do versus AutoCAD it's night and day and and you look at that technology and that Bim you know modeling that's exciting you know AutoCAD wasn't doing that for us so these are tools whether it's you know software you know Hardware that's that that's technology that excites the younger generation College isn't for everybody so when we're looking at you know the the the future of the industries out of the construction industry we've got to put these tools and and you know show them this is what you do it's not about just going out on the job site and you know hanging duct work and doing the same thing over and over it's all these opportunities that are out there with these Technologies yeah no I couldn't agree more with Ron uh we're doing the same thing and one of the things that we have been doing is creating a curriculum with ar VR because that excites them as well right if we can put them in the VR World in their gaming mode I think that's a win for everybody and that's also what excites you know and gets them to want to be involved with the UA or the ITI sheet metal workers so I think it's um it's what we have to do we have to adapt to them you know generally I mean back in our generation we would we we had to adapt to the old ways right well now we have to adapt to the new way so how come we're the adapters and nobody else is go figure right I think the change has been so abrupt though that it's it's just kind of turned some people upside down and not in a necessarily bad way but just you have to set those expectations and I think bringing your existing Talent along for that journey in a really communicative way is super important and I think that leads into my next question that I have for you if you were speaking to a new contractor today how would you advise them to address either attracting new talent but also more importantly retaining that new talent that they bring in because training people of course is a very expensive Endeavor in finding new Talent so what advice would each of you offer them to uh to kind of hit that head on you know that's that that's a great question uh Recruitment and Retention is is extremely and very critical in our industry so you know I I think a lot of what goes on with that is just the awareness the awareness of what we as we have as a union organization whether it's a you know a very good wage uh health care benefits pensions you know I think that's the attractive part and you know I I've come I come from Minnesota and you know if you go into sorry about that yeah I'm nearby I grew up in rural Michigan so that's all good exactly and it's like you know somebody that's going through the apprenticeship program they finish it in four years there you know you can get out of there making roughly about a hundred grand a year I mean if you're staying busy full time that's a that's a good that's a good living oh for sure and I don't think a lot of people know that which is is frustrating sometimes because there was a window where everybody was told you must go to college to do anything after that era and as you alluded to a minute ago that is certainly not true and you can make more money in the trades not going to college than some people who might have so it's all about picking the path that feels right for you and also making sure that we you know educate everybody to know that there are opportunities and they don't all tie back to a four-year bachelor degree yeah I think it's twofold one of the things you just mentioned about making sure they know there's other paths available right and and one of them is to educate the Educators who are teaching them now and let them know how okay this is another possibility it's not like uh well you know you don't make it for college so you need to go into construction that's not true whatsoever not at all in fact uh you know I'll speak for UA and I think you guys are the same did we get college credits we give college credits to The apprentices so they're going to college the difference is they're earning why they're learning and and that's a huge thing the other thing I think we have to do uh show to to attract new people is that we have multiple paths you don't just have to figure out hey I'm going to be hanging pipe for the rest of my life there's so many paths now so much available to them I think that's key yeah it's it's an exciting moment to figure out where you might fit into construction as well and I I kind of stumbled in it to be honest I I got out of college at the tail end of the recession where there were just no jobs to be had and so somebody who had 40 years experience was willing to work for what I would have been willing to work it was a interesting uh a few months as you kind of navigate that and I end up getting a role as a proposal writer for a big Federal contractor knowing nothing about construction but they knew I know how to write and they underst knew that I understood technical things and as I got into it I was like this is really cool and I had no idea and it just evolved as you watch the technology come in and the software that supports the industry and now we're at this moment right now it's just it's so exciting to see so much purpose-built Tech that's brought to the industry and then we get to have really cool conversations like the one they're having right now it's it's a lot of fun yeah no no without a doubt um as you were talking I was thinking about some of our apprentices and some of our Journeymen our Journeymen right they're having to adapt to the technology so I said I'll come we're the only ones but it's not it's it's the older generation who now has to adapt so where we used to say hey you're an apprentice keep your mouth shut not anymore right hey come over here kid show me how to do this and that's critical too I was told something yesterday that was really encouraging to hear where one of my colleagues had been told by a contractor that their path is to bring newer apprentices And Trades people and new people out of college and pair them and partner them with somebody who's been industry for 20 or 30 or 40 years and the relationship that those two people get to build apparently it's been incredibly impactful for both those two individuals and then for the business as well because the person that's new to the industry but has some of the tech chops is able to help the person who might not have those those chops and at the same time they're sharing the incredible wealth of knowledge that they have on how to build and there is so much Nuance in construction to have that information sharing and that relationship building in a really safe space to just do it is really cool and then the other aspect that I think is super important is as more people start to retire from this industry we have to chase and Chase and Chase the knowledge retention so we can hold on to that through organizations otherwise we're going to have a an interesting moment in you know 10 years when we go okay how how do we do this thing and you know John required retired six months ago and he had done that 40 times and now we're like all right where do we start you know it's uh it's an interesting thing to think about yeah I I can't agree more I think uh mentoring is hugely critical these days because of that knowledge and the the average age of construction you know workers is up there yeah so if they can share that knowledge and and uh you know with the you know that next Generation it's it's only going do dividends down the road and you've got to convince them and I mean I'm I'm not too far away I got 10 12 years left and I think Ken's probably in the same boat maybe less but you think about all that knowledge that we have we have to share that with them so they can continue and and move this thing forward and go ahead yeah I'm I'm gonna say um Ron threw me off a little bit because I think he just called me old I was gonna say I thought you were my age and so I was surprised by that comment but you know we'll we'll power through and then you can uh you know maybe get him to give you 20 bucks at the end of this conversation perfect I I have to say I'm so excited about events like Autodesk University too because it all really ties together everything that we're talking about right now where it's information sharing where it's awareness of new technology or processes that we might not have been familiar with and it's also one of the coolest things about construction is there's openness to sharing that knowledge that transparency is so important between industries of course you're not going to give up your your Competitive Edge but the the learnings are so important for the entire world and most everybody I've ever met is very honest and open and willing to share what they've learned because it's just it better Society it's it's a cool space to be yeah yeah I was going to say this conference is great for the networking piece right so we get to talk to Neil not only vendors but we also see our own members here and when we see our own members here we have those hard conversations of what's next and and what can we do better right now to make the industry better yeah it's it's a ton of fun and so I've got one final question for both you guys and then I'll let you get back to your busy schedules today what are the most interesting trends that you're seeing right now in construction or what are you the most excited about right now as you you know step onto a project site or talk to somebody who's just getting into the industry I was going to say AR you know and and how AR is evolving so quickly across the industry uh and then trying to stay up on that and what's the latest what's the greatest and if we go out to the vendors every one of them is the greatest and they're the latest and and they're the best thing in the show right there's some cool Tech going on and in the augmented part of augmented reality I steal that word all the time because it applies to so many aspects of construction technology that's so important but it's really cool to see that and I think also that Tech opens up a bit more ability to do remote work in a way that we haven't been able to do previously and obviously if you are you know doing pipe fitting or hanging ducks or something you have to be on the job site but if you can reduce the amount of people on site the safety aspects are important but also you open opportunities up to people that might not live in a big urban area that has a lot of construction especially if somebody's supporting the data side of things of the technology piece so it's it's an important aspect of the industry how about you Ron what are you most excited about right now I really think uh something that's excites myself and I think our our you know sheet metal trade is is robotics robotics is is really growing I mean you look at the HP what's HP is doing with site print you also have Dusty robotics out there I mean that that's I don't ever like to use the word you know easier because easier nothing's easier all right it always it takes it takes skills to be able to do do the work it's going to make us more efficient and I and I look at what you know whether you look at one of those two devices or you look like what Boston Boston Dynamics is doing with with uh you know spot and and the other the other robotic you know looks like a human right um and I think that's where's that going to lead us five to ten years down the road you know probably be not you know not before I was retired I think it's going to have an impact on us and it's going to do you know it's going to do some of the things those maybe uh um daily tasks so to speak or you know those uh generic ones or something like that so I think robotics is going to definitely uh it does have a have a bearing and an impact on uh our shops you know whether it's sheet metal shop or or a pipefitter shop it's definitely something that's out there and I think it's going to eventually make its way to the job site as well yeah and I want to say that uh robotics is a good thing to bring up and I want to say there's a lot of things going on on the robotic side that's actually going to make the job site safer and our members safer and I think that's huge yeah and it's quality of life things I learned from somebody yesterday because now when you can help people in lift assists or take some of the The Strain away from people who are doing difficult and manual tasks as you were alluding to a minute ago that's a win for everybody because somebody's going to be able to continue doing that job longer and then when they do retire they're going to feel a lot better too so you know as long as we can continue augmenting the the tasks that people do well and letting them focus on that and taking the things that are time consuming that uh you know some tool or a robot or technology can do at a scale that a human just simply can't do it's a huge win for the industry at large I'm I'm a big fan myself so yeah couldn't agree more all right gentlemen well thank you so much for joining me today on digital Builder it's been an absolute pleasure learning a bit about both of your organizations and what you're interested and your backgrounds are about and for everybody out there listening today just make sure you're listening to digital Builder on wherever you get your podcasts Apple Spotify we're going to be recording a couple more episodes today and again gentlemen just thank you very much I appreciate you I appreciate it Eric great to be here and uh thank you for the invite yeah absolutely thank you Eric appreciate it and uh exciting all right well have a great day thanks guys foreign [Music]

2023-01-25 03:12

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