Achieving Agility with Composable Commerce: An Interview with Mira Commerce
Sam Bhagwat: I'm here with, uh, Sergei Ostapenko, who is, uh, President and CEO of Mira Commerce. Um, and I'm also here, uh, with Eduardo De Lisa, who is the Chief Technology Officer of Mira Commerce. Um, thanks for joining today.
So, Sergei, Eduardo, um, can you say a little bit about, uh, about Mira and sort of your history and background with the composable space? Sergei Ostapenko: Yeah, so Mira Commerce, um, has been in business for 19 years. We started in 2004 as a systems integrator for the platform called Market Life, and we were this traditional technology, um, monolithic type SI uh, implementing, uh, new sites and helping people migrate onto Kibo and various other platforms for many, many years. Um, I came into the company at the end of 2018 after having built another agency in this space, and I became a partner and then I bought out the company from previous owners, um, three years ago. And so we immediately, uh, started to look at in 2019 at this space, and we saw that, uh, platforms are breaking up and, uh, MACH approaches, uh, take, uh, ground and become more popular, um, with people using microservices, leveraging custom APIs, uh, considering native, uh, cloud and headless as one of the ways to go.
Um, you know, the, not every client, uh, needs to be on headless, and not every client necessarily sees value in headless. Uh, but we saw this clientele that, um, were looking at the technology as the strategic, uh, strategic, uh, value creator for themselves, right? And so we started to build, um, some headless sites. We started the BigCommerce practice.
We love that shopping, uh, cart and the platform because of its, uh, modularity and ability to deploy that and, in all sorts of different ways. So BigCommerce is a back- big practice of ours. Um, and so that's how we started.
Edo has been with the company for, um, over 12 years now, and so he's spearheading that effort on the technology front. So Edo, maybe it's a good idea for you to share how, uh, your engineering team and yourself, you guys started on the headless track. Eduardo De Lisa: Oh yeah. Well, it was a long time ago when, uh, we started to see new technologies coming into the e-commerce world. So, um, we started to create, uh, internal groups to do some, uh, research around what's the latest, uh, to be on track on the, on, on what the world is looking for around technologies and how we use technologies to leverage the client needs.
We always are looking for better ways to deliver content to our customers, uh, and then to deliver, uh, new, new features that can speed up and allow the merchants, our merchants to sell, uh, better data products. So, um, with the headless practice, we started, like, uh, two years ago around that day to start looking different frameworks and looking for different accelerators in the space. Uh, and we create our practice on the, um, the, the technology side we choose and the framework we choose. That's how we started with our, uh, first couple projects around level, around the, the headless board.
Uh, and, you know, as the, the projects are just moving forward, we create a- uh, different, um, connectors with the, with with the tools and vendors that are around space. Um, and that's how we are building, uh, continuous growing our, um, practice around health. Sergei Ostapenko: Yeah, and I should also probably, I should also probably mention who, who our clients are. Um, we typically work with merchants who are, um, multichannel, omnichannel, and who make anywhere between, um, you know, 20, 30 million in GMV, all the way to 200 plus. So it's a growing segment of operators who have built their initial sites. Uh, they have, um, run this business for a while.
They know what works, what doesn't, and they want to get to that next level. In terms of, Both, um, options that they have, um, with the toolkits that they use, as well as performance of their sites online. So it's the operators who are technically competent and who understand value and technology that we work with. Sam Bhagwat: That's a great description. I think that there's, you know, that headless, we, we could, we see that transition a lot around the 25 million, 50 million- where folks are come up on, you know, maybe a monolithic platform and they're like, uh, I don't know if this quite works for me anymore.
Let me think about, you know, headless, modular composable as a, as a new way. So I like the, I like you're framing of like helping these operators sort of take their, their businesses to the next level through a composable architecture. So, and, and Eduardo think there's great kind of like background on the, uh, historical side.
It's, it's interesting to kind of watch the technical, the technological convergence with the sort of the business case convergence, um, and, and business needs in the the market. So what industries are your clients typically in within e-commerce? Sergei Ostapenko: Yeah, so we work with several verticals more than the others. Um, any kind of specialty retail we would take a look at, but we're very good with, um, the, uh, fashion, um, and accessories, sporting goods, CPG, uh, consumer perishable goods or how people call it FMCG, fast moving consumer goods. We're good with, um, automotive parts and accessories. And then also, uh, sales of, um, gun accessories and ammo and everything about outdoors and sporting goods, um, is where we excel, really. Sam Bhagwat: Yeah.
But it is a, it's a wide world of different vendors, uh, and not all of them apply, um, to all the, the, the needs. So what, what we do is we, um, we evaluate client's needs, we evaluate, uh, different tools, and we try to do our recommendations. Sam Bhagwat: Can you, like, take a particular project just so I think we can get like, kind of focused on a specific use case, um, and, and like walk through how you did like vendor selection for that project.
Sergei Ostapenko: Um, Oh, interesting. Well, um, I'll be, I'll be half practical, half hypothetical here, so I will use a practical example without mentioning names. Okay. Um, So typically you have, um, a customer who already operates the site that we migrated, uh, them to, um, let's say they have a BigCommerce store using, uh, stencil framework and out of the box page builder functionality. Um, and they want, uh, to look at headless.
And they have been very excited about that. And so we first assess who is gonna be the right fit. Right? For going headless, because sometimes there are sirens out there that are singing them songs that you need to go headless and they don't understand why. So, uh, who is the right fit? First of all, they have have to have the internal development team and the person spear hitting this effort has to be very technical, uh, him or herself. Right. They, they must already be in process of, or, um, be aware of, need to build microservices internally, like custom microservices.
Um, they likely have multiple UX touchpoints across different channels. So it's not only the website, it's not only the, um, mobile optimization, um, you know, responsiveness, adaptability of that, but multiple channels. Um, and they also should have a fairly complex and custom, um, user experience requirements. Like, if you're looking about the standard after cart checkout and a simple, um, um, cycle, uh, you know, buy, um, that's probably not a good path for headless. Um, but, um, you know, more importantly, say, say again. Uh, well, simply because the out of the box tooling is gonna satisfy those use cases better.
Um, so it just, you know, you need to look at the ROI of things everywhere. Uh, but, um, more importantly than anything that I mentioned above is, um, this customer has to view technology as a product and a strategic asset rather than just a project and a cost center, a budget to be approved. Sam Bhagwat: I, I, I really, I really like how you're saying that. I mean, we, we have a lot of discussion internally at Netlify of like, how should we describe sort of the target kind of like customer to where we can say, look, it's a good, good choice for you to go composable. And, and we also like hit on sort of like both of those, right? Then the- the need, like you're not well served by the existing solutions.
It's complex enough that like the out-of-box isn't gonna work for you. And then sort of like the upside of like, Hey, do you have the technical lead in place? Right. And do you have, are you like, are you a digitally savvy organization that like understands this and sees this, to your point, as a profit center and not as like, oh, you know, we're spending so much money on IT or whatever. Which is fine for some organizations and that, that approach can work for them, but I think. Those organiza- for, for other organizations that recognize that, um, the, the power of, you know, the, the power of technology and the web to reach their, their and, and to reach their customers. Like, that's sort of the starting spot for the journey that, that we can kind of as a collectively take with folks.
Sergei Ostapenko: So we, we have that dialogue with them initially, how they view this project, why and what, and, uh, where's the core, uh, of this strategy and what, what are the additional areas that they need to take care of. And to me, those areas are typically, uh, uh, it's the intelligence search. Uh, it's your managing the content and having the full flexibility with that bridging across the content assets and the products and shopping and the study content and all of that. And then, um, the, um, CDPs or marketing tools, uh, the ways to build your segments and then being able to market to them intelligently. And so hopefully there's a platform that allows you to do both AB testing as well as segmentation.
And then also allows, provides for like retargeting options and you can also deploy some smart functionality for product recommenders on the site and so forth. So those are the building blocks, like the shopping cart, CMS intelligence search, CDP, or marketing toolkit. Um, and then what is going to be the foundation uniting it all? What's the middleware that, um, iPaas or, um, ESB kind of layer where you can configure the connectivity between the systems and how they're gonna talk to each other. So those, those will be like the building blocks to, to discuss initially. Uh, we do have preferred partners that we work with on every one of those, um, sort of, uh, components. Um, and sometimes clients have preferences.
They already have had the conversations with the vendors and they like some solution and they want us to take a look at that and see how that plugs in into the bigger, um, application solution that will build. Sam Bhagwat: Wh- when you start having conversations with, you know, prospective customers and you start like walking them through kind of this architecture diagram, how do folks respond? Sergei Ostapenko: Uh, they respond, uh, so there, there, there's a lot of anxiety and confusion and there's a lot of fragmentation and a lot of time they have spent to listen to the vendor pitches and demos and they have a hard time connecting the dots together. So, and, and I think that this is, this is actually key to this conversation today. I think that the biggest impediment to headless composable adoption in the marketplace, even for the right companies for whom this is the right fit. I think it's the fact that they have to deal with so many different vendors, SLAs, customer service teams, um, and then one agency that supposedly will unite it all like a conductor. But it's almost, to me, it's almost like coming into the concert and having to pay and invite and make sure that they arrive on time, the drummer, the pianist, the saxophonist, and then the conductor.
And like paying, paying for 15 different, uh, charges from them as opposed to buying one single ticket to the concert. You know? Um, where the producer actually is responsible for bringing all the team in, having them practice and then present to you, you know. Sam Bhagwat: So you're the producer, you're Brian Epstein here. Sergei Ostapenko: That's, that's who we're trying to be.
Yes. I think that our role, um, is changing from the traditional SI and a consultant to a more of the traditional ISV uh, type vendor, uh, who were quite, quite, um, you know, this model was widespread with Microsoft, SAP, Oracle, and so forth when you had the monolith and you had the right to resell, as well as build custom accelerators for industry verticals and roll it out. So you combine software and service and so we actually, um, are going down that path and we are gonna be the one stop solution, uh, for clients that do consider headless. In that we will, um, invite several vendors, uh, who are components of that solution to the joint demos, to the joint conversation about how their particular piece is gonna work with the rest.
Um, and those- Sam Bhagwat: I really like the model that you're describing. Like I, I think, you know, to, you know, to, to sort of add on a little bit, you know, we, we chat sometimes with SI shops and, and I'm, I'm personally willing to be proven wrong, but I think that like, SIs are seen, often seen by their clients and, and maybe see themselves internally as kind of a, a commodity, sort of the lowest cost option, and, and you know, again, that there's a, there's a business model there. But, but like, that doesn't mean that they're the, that SIs are necessarily gonna be the right solution when you need to, you know, undergo the sort of like digital transformation and understand like, well instead of like one vendor now we need, you know, a number of vendors and we need to understand how each one of them works and like, like, and really get the picture of the architecture and feel confident in this kind of like new world that we're moving to.
Sergei Ostapenko: Yep. Yeah. So, um, you know, time will tell which approach wins. But I think that there's enough space for, um, both the monolithic architecture as the headless composable, as well as different vendors of different types in this space.
Uh, nobody says that monoliths are a bad thing, you know, it's, it's just one of the ways of architecting software. Commerce is evolving into the multiple components, best of breed, uh, doing one thing really well. But then it becomes a nightmare to administer and manage.
So as long as you have all the pieces can, you know, that are kept together by one, one vendor to whom you can write a check and uh, who are gonna be responsible for delivering that level of service, uh, I think there is something there. Sam Bhagwat: I think so as well, and, and we're, you know, we're definitely great, glad to have the relationship with Mira and, and, and sort of like vice versa. I feel like there's often like, you know, conversations where we, we can sort of like, oh hey, like a client is trying to figure out how to do X thing, and then we end up like talking about, oh well, like what's the right way to do this approach? And I'm sure you have that conversation with maybe the CMS vendor that they're using and you know, BigCommerce as well, right? Sergei Ostapenko: Yeah, most definitely. Sam Bhagwat: Uh, so, so Eduardo, I think, like, I'm curious from, from your, your perspective, like what has been kind of the most unexpected or surprising thing about these types of projects? Eduardo De Lisa: Well, so we have been using, uh, the composable approach, um, for a long time already. You know, we, we always think when you go or when our clients go, uh, to, and start using our, I don't know, a new review tool uh, third party, to the reviews, right? Uh, you know, what happened when you want to disconnect that or, or change the vendor or when, you know, we, we always think about that in our, the solutions that we create.
So there is, there was no surprise around, uh, the, the, the action need to plug and play different tools. Uh, I think there is a reaction, uh, a good reaction when our clients start to understand how all the things play together on the composable. Um, and then, the, when we start going into how far we can go on the performance for our sites, with the new technology that is around the, the way we, um, try to leverage cache at every single level on the, on the applications, uh, the way to, uh, we want deliver content as fast as we can, as close to the customer as we can, and how we use the technology for that.
Uh, that's something that, you know, when, when you see the clients, uh, see the benefit, that's always something that comfort ourself like, you know? Yeah. Uh, it's something that was really good. It's not only a nice to have thing on our, uh, project, it's always, um, uh, good to see the reactions and when we see the, how the site performs and how they measure.
Uh, on the different- Sergei Ostapenko: Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's, that's like a game changer, right? Every time we run the build in progress through the page speed index, uhhuh, and we show the, the customer the night and day, the performance, even before the full site is built. I mean, it's just, it's just super. Sam Bhagwat: Yeah.
We've seen those like, you know, how do you guys do the- those demos? I mean, we've seen folks do like the product detail page, sort of like demo, like one on one on the existing solution versus the other one. Eduardo De Lisa: Uh, well, so during the, the development cycle, uh, we do demos, uh, on different, uh, sprints, right? So whenever we create a release for the, that, uh, sprint we create a demo and we usually do, you know, different sections like global. We include header, footer, and then we go through a prototyping that goes, uh, deeper and deeper into the protein spot, so the, the customers can start, see, uh, how the site looks at the very early stages.
And then when start creating, um, um, populating the site with content on the CMS and we, you know, we started, uh, to leverage all the custom features on the prototype page, uh, we also, uh, take account performance and each step of cycle, so our QA team, uh, works and measure and track performance on, on different releases. Uh, and we, um, we take those measurements, uh, across the whole project lifecycle. So at the end of the project, we don't have surprises, right? We, we get into early, early release, uh, release, um, measurements, and we detect performance was a little bit, you know, and we work in those components to make better. Sam Bhagwat: Yeah.
I think performance is often the biggest wow for an e-commerce site going headless, uh, headless. You know, and it's, it's great to hear you guys' process first, sort of like how you emphasize that sort of like, and the, you know, kind of keep the customer, uh, keep sort of the customer excited and the sort of like the momentum going through the, through the project, you know, I feel like that's often a, you know, something that we don't talk about as much, you know, and I think, you know, for the, for, for, you know, the, the person listening who, you know, who might be like a, you know, a director or you know, or a tech lead at, at someone who's like, considering this journey. Like, you know, I'm, I'm curious like what, how, how you often see, so, you know, performance, like what, how, how do you like quantify the benefits like, like afterwards or like of the project? Like what, what things do you typically sort of like call out of, like, you know, okay. Like what, what changed afterwards? Sergei Ostapenko: Afterwards, or prior to client agreeing to the, to implement? Sam Bhagwat: Both, I guess! Sergei Ostapenko: Like if, well, uh, so some of the usual suspects would be there, so we'll, uh, show them what we've been able to achieve on similar projects. We'll show them the templated site on BigCommerce, on stencil performance, and then that same site, uh, in headless mode, the difference in the CLS and the page load speed and all of that. And, and the core web vitals and the, the difference in conversions and rankings, right? So, um, don't talk show, you know, so show the live site.
That's one thing. Second, um, They need to have some kind of the ROI business case for technology. And it's very hard to articulate to like business owners to CFOs, uh, what the benefits are of maybe spending more now to, uh, to leverage this platform for more flexibility in the future. So we try to help on that front, depending on what kind of channels they have, how much they sell, you know, what would be the incremental win, in terms of metrics and how would that translate to additional revenues, profits, and so forth. So we do some, um, you know, head scratching on that front together with them, uh, to help understand that.
And then also the, just operational flexibility in, in terms of plug and play, uh, they see the benefit in that and we just, under, underline that once again and say that, look, we we're gonna deploy this in a way that's gonna make it very modular. Uh, we'll decouple all your business, uh, custom rules and functionality and customer profiles from the monolithic platforms. You're gonna own that and that's gonna be yours.
You're gonna innovate on that. And then regardless of what shopping cart or CMS or marketing automation tools you'll use in the future, this is yours. And this is yours to keep. Right? So that's, that's the main approach.
Sam Bhagwat: Yeah. And, and you know, typically, again, for the sites in the revenue range that you're, you're talking about 20 million to 200 million, like what's you're talking about, that incremental bump, like, you know, what's the average kind of bump you typically see? Sergei Ostapenko: Mm, I would not be able to approximate that. That's very unique to individual client models. Sure, sure. Yeah, there, there's definitely significant, um, improvements in the organic rankings. Uh, there's definitely an uplift in conversions.
Um, but it all depends. It really depends. You have to have a seat at the marketing merchandising table together with the clients to be able to influence that, right.
Sam Bhagwat: Uh, uh Oh, definitely. Yeah. And I think it's also, you know, we, we've seen folks who, like, once they sort of adopted the composable web web architecture, they're, you know, how they did experiments change and they're able to do more experiments. And so, you know, if you know, maybe.
Each experiment, you know, they figured out how to raise at a couple percentage points and then they could roll out twice as many experiments. And so, you know, their, you know, their growth rate gets, gets faster or whatever the, the case is. I, I, I totally like, I totally, I was curious if you had some like magic bullet solution. I haven't found one yet. You know, like general purpose, you know, estimate how much this is, you know, but, but I think I, I agree that it's often a very annoying- Sergei Ostapenko: So in my prior life I used to be a Finance Director for Microsoft in Eastern Europe, and we used to have this ROI model to show clients how much electricity they can save by deploying Microsoft servers, Uhhuh, right? And so I know how these models are built and I know what kind of, uh, you know, support.
So I always shy away from, uh, the shy away from, uh, giving them generalizations, you know? Sam Bhagwat: I love it. I love it. No, like, I mean, in fact, it's, it's fascinating because I think, you know, composable is such an individualized journey depending on who you are as a, you know, as a business, what your customer type is like, what your industry type is like, what your existing tech stack is like.
So it's great to hear. It's great to hear you, you, you you, Mira taking that approach as, as well. Sergei Ostapenko: Um, but seriously, uh, seriously speaking though, in the past, I would say like circa 2017-18, you know, headless was the approach that was propelled by developers and, um, in all the decks it was like all about winning the minds of developers, and then we have to explain to business the value of that. I think business gets it now.
I think, I think there is a mainstream understanding of the fact that, uh, technology has to be modular. Stay away from all in one platforms. No one- nobody does it all well. You have to select the best performance in each one of these components and have to connect the things together.
So that connectivity layer, I would say that's even more important than your system of records right now for anything. Like you have the sources of truth for all of your data, but the way you integrate them together is the most important competency that a lot of companies lack. Right? And this is where we come in and help. Sam Bhagwat: I, I agree 100%.
Um, you know, it's that expertise around fitting, figuring out how to fit all the, the puzzle pieces together. And, and I think that that sort of like brings us well to like, can you like, talk a little bit about your partnership, sort of like with Netlify and, you know, how, how you know, you work together with Netlify and how you see Netlify as sort of part of this, um, this composable web story. Sergei Ostapenko: You're definitely one of our, um, um, core partners in the space.
Uh, so there are several companies that offer similar, um, type of, um, product out there. Um, we see a big differentiation in, um, in your approach in that you guys are, uh, sort of framework agnostic and you would like to focus on commerce, uh, support layer, um, regardless of what kind of, um, the preferred framework or language, um, for the custom storefront applications, the merchant prefers, right? So you are that layer. And so with that flexibility, you know, we see a lot of benefit in collaborating with you, so maybe you can tell us also how you guys differentiate now that you, you know, you have been in the space for a while. You are the author of one of the cornerstones of headless composable now Gatsby, right? So how, how do you guys see yourself? Sam Bhagwat: Well, and and it was a, it is funny, you know, it's funny you mentioned that cause that was actually one of the big reasons that we decided to join Netlify was that we, we, the more we talked to our customer base, the more we said, the more we heard folks saying like, look, we, we want to have a sort of a framework agnostic platform, and, and you know, that has, you know, expertise in all the technologies that they're, they're using, and so we said, you know, maybe our story is part of the Netlify story, and, and so like that, that was sort of one of the big, big impetus for us to kind of like, join our, join our forces, uh, join our forces together. But yeah, I mean, I think there's, you know, I think we, you know, we are very much a company that like sees, like sees itself as like, Hey, how do we help you kind of like be successful with the architecture that you want? How do we work, you know, how do we find, how do we get, you know, customers working with the best agencies or if they don't have agencies and you know, if they need to lean on our expertise or if they want, like, you know, framework expertise and, and really work together with them to sort of like help, help be like, help them, like help our customers be successful. And I think that is like an approach that, you know, maybe folks, some, some maybe folks say that they, they want, but like I really feel that, you know, we differentiate and set ourself aside by having the, the flexible platform with the best sort of integrations, the sort of the best security story and also the sort of the mindset of like, how do we help you succeed? Um mm-hmm.
Do that with agency partners, you know, or however it may be. Sergei Ostapenko: Yep. Uh, and, and so this is one, one important topic.
So Edo, you wanna, you wanna say something about the partnership? Eduardo De Lisa: Yeah. So, um, sometimes hard to explain for a, a Dutch person like me, uh, for a decision maker on the other side, uh, how good it's going to be to, uh, invest time into the system for the headless store to leverage, I dunno, uh, study generation for clinical patients. So that's lighting fast. So whenever we start, uh, to have those conversations, which are really important for the end product, uh, being a part of a technology, uh, provider like you guys is really important for us because, uh, every small piece on the chain right now are really important for us and we try to, you know, the devil's in the details.
So we try to put, uh, a lot of effort on the small things that create a really good problem in term of performance, uh, UX and, and, and, you know, creating a better user experience for, for the end customers is really, uh, is really what matters at the end of day, right? So, um, you know, just building these trust, uh, between different partners, uh, is huge for us. Uh, knowing that the way we do, we learn, and, and the way, the way we do the things are the, you know, are also, uh, in conclusion with the best practice that you guys recommend, uh, you know, the, the technology behind, you know, how you leverage the best of it. So, uh, being in sync for us is really important. Sam Bhagwat: I think we're, we're all in it together, right? Like, cause I think like there's, you know, we, they need, you know, people need a build, a build deploy, you know, hosting platform.
They may need headless CMS, they may need a commerce partner. And then, you know, as we, you know, we, but they, they may need a, you know, a specialist agency. And as we sort of like all work together, I think we help, we help folks make this journey into the future.
And, you know, change is hard. You know, change is, change is hard as a person, change is even harder as an organization and as like, you have to coordinate all the different sort of like pieces and how does our, how do we, how do each of our workflows work on the old way and how do each of our workflows work on the new way? But we're really excited that we get to work with you guys. So thanks so much. And, and thank you so much for, for sharing. I think so much of your, your, your pro- your process because, you know, again, like one of the things that, you know, we, we see the most, and probably you see as well, right, is that, you know, folks are coming into this new world and they're trying to figure out how this works.
And I think, like, there's a lot of people that are gonna watch this, watch this video and say, aha and, you know, I, I have a little bit more of a sense now of how to help my organization, you know, make this difficult, you know, or, or like, I shouldn't say, maybe not difficult, but make this. You know, complex transition into the future, um, and, you know, and, and be able to unlock sort of a, a, a lot of business value by doing that. Eduardo De Lisa: Yeah. It's also, uh, about to find the right partners to go through that complexity, right? We don't, we don't want to create complexity. We don't want to migrate complexity when you switch platforms, when you switch technologies. So, uh, in order to simplify the path for our customers, uh, is where we need, you know, uh, good relationships between different partners and different partners.
That's, that's why- Sergei Ostapenko: I want to use a quote by Edo on this. A while ago, we were scoping a project for a client, and Edo said internally, not to the client, but internally, he said to the team, our ambition is to make sure that a developer stops translating the data in manual xls files from marketing. That marketing does this with just one click of a button. Our ambition is to do that, right? So our ambition is to make the lives of people easier.
Like for me, um, as the owner of this business and, um, you know, Edo is my partner, and Marina is our team member, I I think we're in this for the human aspect of it. We love the fact that we are propelling something that, um, enables connectivity between the people because commerce is always about human connection and handshakes and, um, you know, communications and exploration and adventure. And so for us it's important to select the right partners who are also having this mindset that customer is at the center of it. Her priorities, her challenges, her aspirations are, you know, what we, with what we are supporting and serving to, uh, catering to.
And then we need to not forget that besides the shoppers, the end user of the platform, there's also the business user, the backend administrator, merchandiser, mark, marketer, developer, right? And they deserve just as much as those people who are using it on the front end. And so the ambition is to uh, make it seamless. The ambition is to, um, keep this human element in this and all be in sync of what we're trying to build here. You know, we're building a better future in my mind. Sam Bhagwat: Yeah, that, that's a great place to close it on. Uh, Sergei, Eduardo, Marina, thank you so much for, for joining us today and, and sharing your insights and, and experience about, um, the composable space.
So I'm, I'm Sam Bhagwat, I'm the co-founder of Gatsby, now a principal engineer at Netlify. And great, great to have you here and thanks for joining us. Sergei Ostapenko: Thank you. Bye. Eduardo De Lisa: Thank you.