219. LINKS, Citizen Coders & Auditing Shelfware: Insights from Harbor’s Kris Martin

foreign [Music] focused on Innovative and creative ideas in the legal profession I'm Marlene gaybauer and I'm Greg Lambert so we have a very special episode this week with our friend Chris Martin he's the Executive Vice President with Harbor Chris thanks for joining us and and being available we're very excited to talk about a number of things that that are going on at Harbor formerly known as hbr we'll we'll get to that later so Chris welcome to the geek in review Marlene Greg thank you so it is that time of year again where we are conference time getting ready for the links uh conference and so uh Harbor has the links conference set up this week and it kicks off uh with a keynote on unleashing human potential in the age of AI and technology and of course we have to talk about Ai and Technology this year um I like that we're throwing inhuman potential in addition to Ai and Technology absolutely so Chris tell us a little bit about links and then um kind of you know what uh with this type of keynote what what's the kind of theme that we're working with this year yeah well I mean start starting off with that with that uh with that keynote uh wow it's those of you who know Nina Camillo uh her story uh and and and sort of kind of the journey that she's been through uh it we're we're really excited about that that that start to uh links this year uh every year we've had uh the benefit of of some some really good Keynotes to to get us started um you know this is the this is the time of uh a a an enhanced Focus yes on AI but also on on on psychological safety on on newer diversity uh and and and really if you start to think about where those themes fuse uh the the less we have to be focused and thinking about uh how we're going to produce a letter to send to our boss or to our client or so forth versus what the meaning is or what the depth of that is uh you can start to see where that that that human power becomes even more important and even more read through when when the machine is writing all of our emails for us the only way to really differentiate what's good or bad uh what's true and genuine versus not um is going to really just come down to who we are as humans and and so uh the the the sort of intersection between that that human power and that and that technology power uh is a is a really fantastic and fascinating topic to dive into I I imagine there's a lot of people that want to uh just have the AI write everything for them right now so having having that empathy having that uh that that Humanity uh behind is probably going to be more important than ever Chris I know that you have worked with um Gino Grady on the Strategic start stop survey um and you guys have collaborated for the past few years um and and that the survey covers vendor behavior and AI adoption this year so what are some of the key AI tools and vendors law firms should be considering right now how can law firms how can law Librarians help evaluate these tools and guide procurement decisions well let me also first kind of roll back and talk about the start stop survey for a second because give us a little history yeah so uh Gene and I uh as as many of you that we've you know we've all known each other for for many many years uh Gene launched the start stop survey good good decade ago and and such a fantastic topic to to really just get a pulse on uh the the entire legal Community what are we what products are we starting to use what products are we stopping to use what behaviors are we starting what what would behaviors are we stopping and just just as a as a quick like point in time pulse and when you look at that year over year um in fact when we go back in time and look at old ones it is a pretty fascinating study just to see uh how that's changed uh it is all of it purely scientific no that's almost the opposite of the point we we keep the the the questions predominantly for those of you who participate in it are predominantly like open-ended questions right so so really allowing people to just kind of Express what they're doing uh and then we do all the hard work of actually pressing that into useful data so a couple years ago I've loved the survey so Gene did it on Iran for years and a couple years ago uh through kovitz she had a bit of a gap I wasn't sure if she had sunsetted it or what so um we we talked and we collaborated and kind of decided like you know we we can help her with the the analysis and and and whatnot um but it really is still jeans jeans uh work work of art here and and a really cool cool output um so now to to answer the question though the uh I I don't know that there is really a clear winner uh in in fact that's almost maybe the point uh there are 93 of firms are moving forward and doing some kind of activity around AI uh that can be as little as demoing things and exploring it uh the the seven percent by the way are firms that have said we're not doing absolutely anything with AI right now we we're we're too afraid to to take that next step or or to jump into that um into that universe so uh but but from a product side I think uh what's what's interesting certainly uh uh case text had a had a head start on on the universe in in the space and um their name comes up a lot we do a lot of this just kind of crunching it down to see what what names what vendors what what themes repeat it themselves throughout the survey uh and so so so definitely uh what what that team is working on and and and the activity coming into Thompson Reuters which which happened just as the survey was launching uh it was was in was was probably the most prominent name that you're going to see uh repeated throughout the survey yeah who knows I'm looking forward to seeing the results yeah well we we may look back on it and think that the the seven percent that are sitting on the sidelines right now may actually be the smart ones so because I mean I mean think about it it links uh you know second to the the second uh conference last year the the only AI we were talking about was was extractive AI which was kind of you know kind of a bummer um and yeah it's been around for a long time yeah and just the past now So speaking of of links's second year this is actually the third year coming up and Marlene and I have had the pleasure of doing the wrap-up session for uh for each of the first two and we're going to do that again this year so we actually have I think the the easiest job we just got to to listen and take notes and then uh the color commentary and then yeah give the color commentary um but uh you know in the three years now that you've been doing this um how do you think the you know what's been the value that Lynx has brought to to the community you know the the Lakes Conference itself really stemmed out of and and you know maybe first to just give credit where credit's due uh that this this was absolutely calling Cable's brainchild uh but uh the uh before there was links there was a survey and and uh and the survey is the Bliss survey uh uh the Bliss survey is is really a labor of love uh that that that we began in 2016. uh and it's uh it's an absolutely free to participate uh survey we put an extraordinary amount of time and effort into into creating the output with the with the survey results because we know that those who participated put an extraordinary amount of time and effort in in providing us uh their answers it's not a quick and easy you know six question multiple choice it it'll take most you know well well over an hour to to go through and complete and pull together all the facts so we want to give them a a solid and quality output um the the the findings as as that survey started to see change happening year over year we ask about 80 80 to 90 percent of the questions each year are consistent questions that we that we ask every year uh and then we layer in some more current trends type questions and so of course you know no doubt this year is is around uh around AI last year was around analytics uh so so each year we're gonna we're gonna make a little bit of modification to some of the some of the changing behaviors we we wanted a different Outlet we and and I think we're where Bliss really started from was we had a we had a uh it was a podcast we had a uh a webinar uh where we shared some of the results and it was we did that through double A Double L uh and we're just they were shocked we were shocked by the amount of interest in in joining that uh that webinar so we took that and we evolved that into into this conference with the idea that weaved throughout each session is is facts and figures that come out of the out of the Bliss survey but also really trying to bring in uh some some fantastic thought leaders uh and uh you know we'll put uh some links in the show notes for those of you who capture this episode uh with uh with time to spare uh the conference itself is probably the cheapest out there 59 for for a participation um we find that a lot of people don't even bother asking uh for for permission to attend they just use their personal card to to run that up in part because the entire uh it's 59 is actually a contribution to the uh George Strait uh minority fund uh from with double A Double L uh so far in the last two years we've given a total of about thirteen thousand dollars uh this this year we're on track to to to definitely keep Pace with the with the prior years if not exceed it um and and even more exciting uh some of the actual participants or or sorry some of the actual recipients of the scholarship fund uh will be joining us uh during the conference so uh it it'll be super cool just to just to like see that that that uh full circle of giving and and uh incorporation of of uh of those individuals maybe even one day in the future we'll have them as speakers that that'll even be even more equal to to see that all the way come through yeah um so Chris I'm going to shift gears just a little bit uh back in June speaking of uh calling cable you you and Colleen wrote a an article um and it was entitled leveraging the law firm's Law Firm libraries untapped value the library can be a secret weapon for differentiating your firm and bringing previously untapped resources to Bear we had a we had kind of a prior discussion on this last week where Marlene was uh going why does the library need to be a weapon so but I I like it I like it so but in the article itself you discuss the importance of you know strategic purchasing practices to mitigate the cost that you know law libraries assume for the for their firms you know so one of the you know what specific steps in the article did you recommend that law Librarians take take when and when something that we actually need to do is make that audit of our Library resources and and then using that to negotiate with the vendors so can you tell us a little bit about the article in in what your intentions were yeah so so uh and and really every year we we Colleen and I try to launch a a platform paper this year I think with the uh with with all the goings-on with Arbor uh it it got delayed a little bit later into the summer into early summer but uh it's typically something we try to kick the year off with as a as as essentially a platform paper uh we had we had um gone a little bit quiet on cost savings uh type Focus uh for the last couple years I think not to say that cost and budget isn't a priority for uh libraries every single year but uh it's it's certainly come back into into Focus uh and so we uh we we did we did bring that one back forward again uh it is it is one of the areas that that we feel uh libraries are are going to need to think about differently maybe than they have in the past uh I've been working with libraries and and cost cutting cost savings for just actually nearly nearly 20 years at this point uh my it was it was the law library that that kind of brought me into this in into this space but uh the the big challenge that we're facing now is cut cutting is no longer the the way to Prosperity right we had a decade Plus for most uh for most firms to be able to continually look at print Collections and sort of the more obscured titles and and types of things as well even into the electronic side uh to say you know we we can we can reduce that in order to reduce cost uh now now we've seen a pretty substantial consolidation of of products to large vendors who are also themselves investing pretty significantly in the new technologies that are really expected of them as vendors uh and so trying to really find that balance then becomes a bit of a different art uh it's it's not it's not simply about how much do I use this product a lot of the products you don't actually necessarily use the way that you may be now paying for them to use so now it's about really trying to evaluate what is the right product that aligns with my firm for the future uh as a and and uh if I'm already stealing my crystal ball moment I'll I'll uh I'll come up with another one later but uh hey that's a pretty wide open question so I have I have confidence in you Chris uh the the image I think some of us are starting to form of the future when it comes to when it comes to uh these these products is the vendors are going to find their way as a Content set into the into the tools that we operate and utilize uh and so you're you're seeing already of course some conversation around how products like Westlaw and Lexus are integrating with tools like Microsoft uh and and surfacing themselves inside of the the tools that the lawyers are already uh uh interacting with we're going to see more of that and so understanding what these products are becomes less about the place where your lawyers are going to go the fact that your lawyer likes or doesn't like the interface of product X that's definitely still relevant today and it's not that that's going away in in next year or the year after uh but the interface of these tools becomes much less relevant than the content within them and the technology behind them uh because as those things uh progress in advance we're going to see ourselves into a different kind of future where the lawyer is it is really just talking to it completely differently so Chris you know you've mentioned look we've trimmed the fat on the library budget right you know we've we've done we've done that that job and now we're at a point where um where you know we we still have to continue to look at Cost savings you've also mentioned that a lot of our beloved products are becoming more integrated with other beloved products so these are are basically quite sticky and they're you know the the firms have them uh however it it may prevent um exploration into other tools you know perhaps even newer tools that um don't have that type of integration that aren't as mature so how do you how do you continue to to balance cost savings and then still provide access to essential research tool legal research tools and and in that meaning you know looking at some of these these new products that that could you know really really revolutionize and change the way that we work you know and and and and and I think the the the part of the answer to this uh is is about the the library and and those who are responsible for for Acquisitions uh of of both new things and existing renewals uh is is understanding and working closely with the ferment strategy uh the the cost justification around this is probably no longer going to be well your budget was X last year and so will allow for maybe a three percent increase in budget but we also want you to go and purchase this seven figure plus uh new new technology it it doesn't work the map the math that itself doesn't work now does that mean that we can't get the best possible deal on that seven figure product that you go and purchase well yeah that's where that's that's where our job comes back in and and it's how we need to think about how we're going to negotiate that the best price on that but the idea that we're going to somehow fit these these tools because we're going to categorize them as research tools inside of the library budget that's that's probably a bit of a fallacy yeah I was I was gonna say I mean again with more of the integration this could be a cost that's spread across different departments I mean the more integration that there is um you know some of these tools like when you're talking about Microsoft I mean that's traditionally an I.T tool but if you're sort of using um aspects of of an information tool that are integrated you know perhaps this is something that can be spread a little more broadly the the analogy that I've tried to draw this to this is not the same as uh a a a product releasing its newest generation uh this is this is more akin to as we as we talk about the AI tools specifically uh this is more akin to when law firms had to make that decision to put a desktop computer on every single lawyers lawyers desk at ten thousand dollars a pop uh was was a was a pretty substantial investment uh you know think thinking about doing that and you know there there were times in the very beginning where only not even just Partners only select individuals were were granted the granted the computer and usually those were the ones that had a technology client uh so that they could demonstrate that they were using their their their product and they were really just a prop to uh to grow business I and I'm sure we've all heard those stories but uh but but with time uh The Firm began to understand the the the overall value proposition of the Tool uh and and cost Justified as utilization that's that's that's where we're at with uh making kind of financial decisions around these products right now Chris I'm gonna I'm gonna blow up this next question and go in a different direction a little bit um and and I'll let Marlene pick through now we are doing Declarations of that question if there's something that she wants um but one of the things I I just got back from Vanderbilt University where I talked with a bunch of law students in in a few of the professors there and we talked about doing an audit of of the resources that the law firms have and I had mentioned some stories that not just me but other uh colleagues of mine have had which is with the with the excitement the hype the expectations around what generative AI is uh you know supposed to do to the law firm environment just the practice of law itself it has enabled us to to start having conversations uh that we probably should have been having for the past you know five ten years which is you'll have someone come up and say Hey I want to change how I practice in this area or how I do this piece of work because I know that chat GPT can can help me with this and it allows us to then have that conversation of well generative AI you know may do a little bit of that work but really this tool that we bought you five years ago that you asked for and aren't using that's the tool that will help you will change streamline uh you know your the way that you practice or the output that you have or or speed up or uh make it more effective and so we're having those conversations um are you seeing kind of the same result that when you do the do the audit that you're exposing tools that that you've already had that have essentially been shelf wear uh for years are now coming out in in showing their value because we're actually having that conversation are you seeing that I I think there's there's kind of two interesting things in this um I I will not share the vendor the the product or the vendor name uh here but but suggests that you know there's there's a there's an Analytics tool in particular uh that uh the vast majority of large law firms have purchased they have accessible on an Enterprise scale so every single one of their lawyers can can utilize The Tool uh but the actual utilization of this product is minimal uh and and and why now if you showed the the the lawyer the output from this tool and you said is this useful well they all say yes they all love it they love it to death but when you actually say all right now sit down and start to use it so that leads to the other theme which is which is uh citizen coder and and I I don't you know have you guys talked about citizen coder on on the podcast so um sure I mean we have something about it but I'm not sure about it a special episode on it but yes yeah enlighten Our Guest Chris so so the theme of Citizen citizen code yeah me right uh I am definitely not the one for that uh but uh but uh you know the theme of Citizen coder is is is really interesting and legal which is to to start to really get the lawyers uh more conversant or more capable of having sort of a dialogue in the language of code uh now citizen coders in in sort of the conventional sense are using low code no code tools to to create and develop product uh but but more importantly than that it allows them to then think about what their process is in terms of a tool or a product or software to then translate it and be able to speak to people who know these things better all right so I'm bringing these two themes together to say the more the lawyers can talk about what their needs are and the process of what they're doing uh in terms of actual Technologies whether they're whether they exist today and they are things that are inside the firm just not being used or things that the firm or the firm's vendors should be creating we we now have a little bit more of a of a of a circular uh conversation here where the lawyer can communicate to an internal stakeholder the internal stakeholder can talk to a a a a vendor and a vendor can come back and sell a product to the firm uh that that actually has utility uh so that I don't maybe a bit of a roundabout answer to your question but I but I think uh this this concept of getting the lawyers a little bit more conditioned to talking about what they're doing in a framework of what is actually possible with the tools that do actually exist presently today again whether the firm has it which they may uh or not all right so I I like this this concept of Citizen coder that that you've brought up um because it it it sort of touches on the various shaped lawyers um that we've we've talked about on the the podcast about sort of attorneys being more comfortable with with technology and speaking the language of technology but you know yet this this remains a real challenge because again that's not what well it is not perceived that that is what their day job is that that sort of tech that sort of information is not part of what they're doing they are lawyering they are are dealing with law and you know that sort of the the technology is is left for for someone else and um you know I think the low code stuff does help but again have you seen kind of best practices to kind of get that type of Engagement from attorneys you know what sort of incentives are they given to do that that's that that or or what sort of processes are you seeing in in firms that are changing to to embrace that type of idea yeah it it's it really starts to become more about and it's and it's certainly few and far between at this stage uh I I I I worry about and I think about um really even going back to to Casey's uh Kia study a decade ago now is that about right I think the will is there I think the will is there for many and and that's what I was gonna say I feel like I feel like between the fact that Generations have progressed in terms of like the you know new entrance into into the partnership uh and just the overall demanded energy around this particular theme uh more so than do I know how to write a formula in Excel it's do I know how to to to write a a a useful prompt in in chat GPT that will give me an answer that will actually help me with my practice uh I I also find that that generative AI uh isn't all that dissimilar from the Socratic method and so um the actual way the the thinking happens uh it is is pretty well aligned to maybe the way a lawyer behaves or thinks which will make it feel a little bit more natural uh and and so then this this starts to then allow us to evolve the conversations uh we we at Harbor uh sit down uh with with groups of lawyers and and and help them think through that uh and and so so have we seen it happen absolutely I mean we're we're helping to facilitate that happening but uh the the actual kind of product or outcome from that really is so variable based on again the the fluency or the the the ability to be conversant around uh the tools when we're when we're talking and hypothetical about things that we don't understand uh it's it's like uh you know trying trying to order a big Knack in in Paris uh you you you do way better if you knew what it was actually called there hahaha I guess that's one little Royale with cheese uh all right so we're we're shifting from the hypothetical the theoretical to the more practical Chris uh the recent rebranding of hbr Consulting to Harbor brings together six merged companies into one unified brand as the legal industry undergoes rapid change what motivated the rebranding to Harbor now so so from from from our view and and and I think each each kind of grouping or pocket of clients uh is is sort of viewing what's happened here a little different uh from from our view within Harbor uh this isn't uh this isn't a rebranding this is a brand launch uh we we are a a altogether net new company bringing together uh six uh very very impressive and and prestigious uh Brands Under One Roof uh we we have a we have a singular goal of really being able to provide an end-to-end uh solution to our clients and and we look at this in sort of Three Steps From the the assessment of what a problem is uh to be able to identify the problem understand it build a build a general solution or Direction around it to help you implement uh the the answer to the solution that that was discussed whether we helped get you there or not uh and and then find finally as needed to help you manage that in in the ongoing uh and so those those three pieces really Define when we talk about how we can support any legal uh organization whether that's a law firm or a law Department end to end it's kind of across those three areas with with sort of a fourth appendix and this is really for everybody and this is sort of this is really how we interact with the community is through our insights uh and so uh just like we were talking about earlier with bliss just like we were talking about earlier with links Harbor as a whole has has an intention to really be in the market to provide the the front end The Cutting Edge information about what's going on in the legal space now how big is Harbor now how many employees roughly so about 650 employees okay within within our got no well go yeah go ahead I was going to say within within uh the the group that I lead which is research and intelligence we have about 230 and so uh predominantly Librarians and other kinds of information professionals um and I know a lot of law firms go through this when they when they merge or they acquire uh you know either boutiques or or other firms um so and I know you guys have have had a number of you know individual companies that have come under the the harbor umbrella and now that's all one one company um and it kind of reminds me of uh you know the early 2000s when the federal government had a bunch of different departments that didn't talk to each other didn't really know the operations what have what have you guys done to to kind of allow you to to realize that you know that cross-selling I guess to to the different uh expertise within Harbor how how are you learning to to kind of collaborate within so that you know when to reach out and get help uh on an issue that a law firm may have yeah no doubt fantastic question uh we uh I mean I think I'll start very humbly here and say this is a this is an Ever evolving process that really any naysayer against the way that that an organization like this outside of legal within legal doesn't matter uh would would ever behave when you bring together uh all these different all these different units do they function in individual silos and really it's just a composite of parts or is it actually truly one company and and and so the way that you do that is is a few things uh what one is is true in an actual alignment across one vision and one one uh set of values which which which we've done uh this this whole process of of bringing organizations together started last year and really just was announced formally to the market a few weeks ago the the the majority of the process today hasn't been about the mechanics of bringing our organizations together it's been about the actually bringing of the people together under uh Under One Roof with one one set of culture one set of vision the the the power here comes with taking thought leaders and individuals from different disciplines and spaces subject matter experts and integrating them kind of in a cross function sense into different practices so we're set up with four different practices we're not expansive out into every little niche does its own little thing everything sits within one of four uh strategy and Technology sorry strategy and transformation research and intelligence vendor governance and strategic sourcing and legal technology so everything that we do fits inside of those buckets those buckets are just as focused on the stakeholders that they serve as the the solutions that they're intended to deliver uh and so by being able to partner then at that stakeholder level we're sharing uh and interacting on needs versus trying to just push through a single solution this allows us to to bring over and cross in other parts of our organization as needed based on based on what we're hearing from the client so Chris I really love the name Harbor so whoever thought that one up you know Kudos kudos to you um I just I think back about like when I used to practice and in healthcare you know you had safe harbors you know these areas where you know hospitals could you know um you know have have a safety net and so I think it's just a very apt name I just kind of have this vision of a bunch of people or a bunch of boats like in in a port you know and just you know safe from the storm so how does this notion of Harbor as sort of A Safe Port um as a safe point of support and and knowledge exchange how does that resonate with the company's mission to help clients achieve breakthrough outcomes during industry transformation yeah the the the overall direction of of of where we are expecting to go and I think this really started with the initial vision of what why now why why even do this at this point in time was a true shift in in what we saw to be the direction of of the law firm and so uh as as we see law firms increasingly focus on their back end operation the the you know that the hated and dreaded terminology of the non-lawyer I you know what what's in a name right and and there is a fair amount of lowering these days that's happening by non-lawyers by those so as much as that might be seen as a as a negative term within the law firm the reality is uh a great amount of the actual delivery of law happens by the two of you by uh by by your peer group are the ones who are really making a lot of the magic happen uh and so building an organization that that is there and designed to support that really became the the why now for us uh that that we really were at that at that precipice at the at the point of the of the of the development of of the legal Community where where this was actually demanded or needed and and I also noticed it and it took me a couple of days before I realized it and it shouldn't have was that hbr and harbor essentially had the same letters in the in them as well so um so got it out to get to the crystal ball question but I've got something super important to ask first but I'm going to have to grab something off my shelf so hang on just a second this would be a little extra for the YouTube uh group super surprise the uh I don't know he didn't share this with me I don't know what he's gonna do this is Gary what is it his captain's hat all right that's a great swag oh there he is Consulting uh can I uh turn this in for some Harbor swag I I I think we can definitely make something like that happen uh well good good next time I see you in person we'll I'll be wearing it ready to swap out or maybe maybe I keep it maybe this would be a collector's item now I you know that's what I'm telling my kids with all the stuff I keep passing over to them [Laughter] check on eBay turn it in so Chris uh we ask all of our guests our crystal ball questions so we're going to ask you to pull out your crystal ball and peer into the future for us um and what do you see on the horizon that would be a challenge or a change uh in the legal industry over the next say two to five years yeah you know we we hit this briefly a bit in passing earlier but the idea that uh uh legal research is really going to integrate itself into lawyer process the the the the need for and and let's start with with the role of the library or or or where many Librarians will start to fit in uh Gino Brady uh had done a post about prompt Engineers uh the the ability to really think through and evolve the way that these products are uh integrating into that legal process will be a pretty key element of of uh the way that lawyers act and behave and so just thinking thinking how that's going to work how we're going to interact with vendors differently through that process the the the pieces that we were talking about as well in terms of lawyers surfacing uh new new process that will leverage and evolve from uh the the large language models that are out there and the way that they're uh creating the hierarchies inside their organizations I I think all of this is a pretty uh pretty substantial shift in in behavior and not not so far on the future that we shouldn't be thinking about that from how we organize our teams how we hire new people the types of resources that we're looking to to acquire all of those topics should should fall into this lens of we're probably no there there will be a future end date of where people are going to places to get information versus just having it um elevated and surface to worth all right well Chris Martin Executive Vice President at Harbor I want to thank you very much for uh joining us on the geek and review and hope to see you uh later this week at the lynx conference as well you know again we'll put a we'll put the link on for links on the show notes thanks Chris thank you and of course thanks to all of you our listeners for taking the time to listen to The Geek and review podcast if you enjoy the show share it with a colleague we'd love to hear from you so reach out to us on social media I could be found at gay Bower M on Twitter LinkedIn and at M gay bower66 on threads and I can also be reached on LinkedIn or glamored on Twitter and glamber pod on threads and blue sky so again so many places to post these days so Chris uh what about you if someone wants to continue the conversation and learn more where can you be found online so you can definitely come in through our website is not just Harbor but Harbor Global uh so Arbor global.com is

the website uh that that we just launched a few weeks ago and and uh can connect through there uh I I personally can be reached at christopher.martin at at oops at harvardglobal.com uh and uh if you're still interested in links you can either reach out to me directly uh or use the the links email address is just that word l-i-n-k-s at Arbor global.com

talking about retiring the voicemail so it's kind of like Twinkies you know we're gonna be getting rid of it unless anybody uses it so uh you can still leave us a voicemail on the geek and review hotline at 713-487-7821 but perhaps not for long yeah and as always the music you hear is from Jerry David de Sica thank you Jerry yeah thanks Jerry all right Marlene Chris see you guys later bye-bye [Music] okay don't take me away [Music] from God foreign

2023-09-19 02:40

Other news