Radical Technologies - with Adam Greenfield | Virtual Futures Salon
For those of you were here for the first time the virtual futures conference occurred. At the University of Warwick in the mid 90s and to, quote its co-founder, it arose at a tipping point in the technologies. Ation, of first, world, cultures. Now. What is most often betrayed, is a techno positivist, festival of acceleration. ISM towards a posthuman, future the, Glastonbury. Of cyber culture as the Guardian puts it it's, actually hidden, behind the brush steel the silicon, the jargon, the designer, drugs, and the charismatic, prophets was, much more sober, and much, more, urgent. What, virtual futures did was try to cast a critical eye over, how humans, and, nonhumans. Engage. With emerging, scientific, theory and. Technological. Development. This Salon series, and it has been a series we've been running for about two and a half years now completes. The conference's aims who bury the 20 20th. Century, and begin work on the, 21st. So. Let's. Begin. For. Many in this crowd Adam Greenfield, needs no, introduction. He spent over a decade working in. The design and development of networked digital information, technology, in his new book from verso, radical. Technologies, a field, guide to the technologies, that are transforming, our lives tackles, almost every buzzword, that's been forced down our throats by the so-called digital bureaus, and innovation. Directors, over the last six. Months, but. Unlike those evangelists. Adam, confronts, these problems. We refresh and, critical. Voice. From. The smartphone to, the Internet of Things augmented. Reality digital, fabrication, cryptocurrency. Blockchain. Automation. Machine learning, and artificial, intelligence. Every. Technology is, deconstructed. To reveal the. Colonization. Of everyday. Life, by, information. Processing. This. Book is one, step, in revealing, the hidden processes. That occur when, the intentions, of designers. Are, mutated. By the agency. Of capital. And anybody, who's joined us for our event with Douglas rushkoff and and Richard, barber, this may to, some degree be a continuation, of, that discussion, so. In an age where our engagement. With technology is, one of unquestioning. Or and, wonder, when we find out about each new advanced, tool through the language structured. By the PR team and, where the commercial, news outlet outlets. Have to sell, us the, future, this book is, an, essential, read, so. To help us better navigate, the future please, put your hands together and, join, me in welcoming Adam. Greenfield, so the virtual futures, stage. So. Adam. What, are the radical technologies, what, do you define as the radical technologies, and why did you select this. Particular set, of technologies. That's. A great question, so, do. You know who verso is in general do you have a sense of who verso is yeah I figured, you probably did. Know. I see one shaking it verso, likes to represent, themselves to the world as the premier, radical. Publisher, in the English language so, they're forthrightly. Left-wing, they think of themselves as a publishing house of the left and you. Know for all of the different perspectives, and intentions. That are bound up in the left I think they do a pretty good job of representing, that tradition, so, it is, in the, first instance, it makes a fair, amount of sense if you're gonna confront, a title. Called. Radical, technologies, from an avowedly, left-wing, publishing, house you. Would be forgiven, for assuming perhaps. That. The. Intent, of the author is, to, insinuate. That these technologies, have. Liberatore. Progressive. Or emancipatory, effects, when deployed, in the world and I. Don't actually mean anything, of the sort I mean. That, these are radical and in the truest sense in the original sense, in. If, you will the root sense of the word radical which is that these, are technologies, which. Confront, us at the very root of our being they're. Not, merely. Add-ons. They're, not merely things which kind of get layered over everyday, life there are things which fundamentally, transform. The. Relationship between, ourselves. And. The. Social, political economic. And in. Psychic, environment, through which we move and. It. Wasn't. Very hard, to. Identify the specific technologies. That I wanted to engage in the book because you know as we've already established these. Are the ones that are first and foremost in the, popular culture and the media right now literally, and. This is a torment. And a torture for somebody who's working on a book that's, intended to be kind. Of a synoptic overview, of something which is evolving in real time literally every day as I was working on the book I would, open up my laptop and there would be the Guardian there would be the New York Times there would be the BBC, with, oh you know cutting-edge.
You. Know new applications, of the blockchain beyond, Bitcoin or you. Know driverless, cars are being tested in Pittsburgh, or indeed. Somebody. Who's Tesla. Was equipped with an, autonomous, piloting, device was actually killed in a crash so I, am. Profoundly. Envious, of people who get to write about. Settled. Domains, or sort. Of settled states of affairs in, in human events, for me I was. Dealing with a set, of technologies, which are either recently, emerged, or still. In the process of emerging and so. It was a continual. Red Queen's race to keep up with. These things as they as they announced themselves to us and trying and wrap my head around them understand. What it was that they were proposing, understand. What their effects were when deployed in the world and the. Additional, challenge there, is that. I'm kind of an empiricist, I mean, one of the points of this book is to, not take anything on faith do. Not take the, promises, of the promoters, and the vendors and the people who have a financial stake in these technologies, on faith and neither. Take the products, prognostications. Of people, who are inclined, towards the doom II end of the spectrum on faith do not assume. Anything. Look, instead, to. The actual, deployments. Of these technologies, in actual, human communities, and situations, and see, what you can derive from an inspection of those circumstances. In, trouble is is that we don't have a lot of that to go on so, that's the mission of the book so, the thing that to. A degree unites. All of those two jeez all the things you speak about in the book is something, you've called, the, drive for, computation. To be embedded, into Singh every single aspect of the, environment you. Also call it the colonization. Of everyday life by, information. Processing. Could you just explain that core thesis. Yeah. Sure I. Guess. In order to do that concretely. And properly, I have to go back to about 2002. I was, working as a consultant. In Tokyo I was working at a shop called razor fish and razor. Fish's whole pitch to the world was everything, that can become digital, will that. Was literally there at their tagline very. Arrogant chop to work in everybody, was just, so fused with the excitement of the, Millennial period and we all thought that we were like so far ahead of the curve and so awesome for living in Tokyo, and. Frankly. After. September. 11th of 2001, I was. Bored. To death in my job and I was really frustrated with it because that was a moment in time in. Which everybody. I knew kind of asked. Ourselves well what is it that we're doing is it really that important, it was a real, gut-check, moment. Everybody. I knew including myself we all asked ourselves. You. Know we, live in times where you know everything that we aspire to everything we dream about everything, that we hope for everything we want to see realized in the world could. End in a flash of light in a heartbeat, so, we. Should damn, well make sure that what. It is that we're doing on a day-to-day basis, is something meaningful and something true and at. That time I was mostly involved, in the design of the navigational. And structural. Aspects. Of enterprise, scale websites, and I'd done about 50 of them for you know like fortune 500, clients and, I hated. The work and I hated myself for doing the work and. So I asked myself. What. Comes next after these websites surely, this cannot, be the end State for. The human encounter with networked information technologies. And ask, the smartest people around me, you. Know what's next after the, web what's next after the, the, the. E-commerce sites that we're doing. And given. That it was 2002, in Tokyo. Everybody, said mobile everybody. Held up their little you, know I mode devices, and they said this green. Screen with the four lines of type on it that's the future and I. Couldn't, quite believe that we were gonna force everyday, life, with all of its, texture. And and. Variability. And, and. Wild. Heterogeneity, that we're gonna force all of that and boil all of that down to the point that it was going to be squeezed to us through. This aperture, of this little green screen with its four or five lines of text and. I. Was just not particularly, satisfied, with the answers I was getting and one, person said something different a woman, named Ann Galloway, she said to me.
Actually. There's this thing called ubiquitous, computing and, as. It happens there's, a conference on ubiquitous, computing in. In. Gothenburg, in Sweden in, about three weeks time and it's a little bit late but, why don't you see if your company will pay for you to go there and fly, there and check it out and see what's going on and and so I trusted, her and I said you know she's. Um she's, onto something here this ubiquitous, computing project. Feels. Like the future now what was ubiquitous, computing it. Was the name for the Internet of Things before. The Internet of Things it, was essentially, the attempt, to, literally, embed. Sensing. Transmission. Display. Storage. And processing devices in every fabric, every. Physical, component, every situation. Of, everyday, life all of the buildings all of the vehicles, all of. The clothing all, of, the bodies all, of the social circumstances. It was a very aggressive vision. It. Was predicated on Bohr's laws basically the idea that you, know these computing, devices are getting so cheap that we, can essentially scatter them through the world like grass seed we, can treat, them promiscuously. It doesn't matter if some percentage, of them fails, because. They're so cheap we're gonna put processing. Into everything, and we're. Going to derive knowledge. About, the world and we're going to. Instill. Analytics, on top of this knowledge and we're going to figure out how, to make our lives, finally. Efficient, we're. Gonna realize, all of our hopes and dreams by. Capturing, the, signals, of the. The activities, of our own body of the, dynamics, of the city of the. Wills, and desires, of human beings and by. Interpreting. And analyzing those, desires were, finally, gonna bring harmony. And sense to bear in the realm of human affairs that was ubiquitous, computing circa. 2002. But. Then the reality was we didn't discover. All, we found was that this, ubiquitous. Data collection, was being used against. Us we were the former media that was being consumed, almost. You. Anticipate, me that, that's absolutely correct you know we were the product it turned out but, that, wasn't clear for another couple of years yet it, didn't, really, get, I mean maybe I'm just very stupid, and maybe it took me longer to figure out what I also have but. It that didn't, actually become clear to me until around 2008. Right, 2010. Even. There. Was, something. Else that happened in the interim which was kind of the last moment, of hope that I myself personally. Remember, having around information technologies. Was, June 29th, 2007. It. Was the launch of the original Apple, iPhone and, in. This, single, converged, device, I thought. Was the realization, of an. Awful. Lot of ambition, about. Making. Information. Processing. Human I was. Still I still believe that in those days as recently, as 2007. So recently as 10 years ago I still believe that and, I. Went to work at Nokia in Finland, to realize, a, competitor. To that device I was so inspired by by, that that I thought you know um, that's. Great for the first world that's great for the global north but. Apple, is really only speaking to a very limited audience, of people in you. Know in the relatively wealthy part, of the world, Nokia. Is where. The future is Nokia, at that point had 70%, of, the, Chinese market share and mobile devices 80%, of the Indian market share in mobile.
Devices And I, thought this, is where we're going to take all of these ambitions, and. Force. Them to justify themselves, against, the actual circumstances of, the lives and conditions, that most people on earth experience. I had. A lot of hope about that and. As, it, turns out, that's. Not what happened, we, were we were told. That. Fishermen. In in. East, Africa, would use their mobile devices to find out about market, conditions, and the. Latest available spot, prices for the fish that they were about to dredge up out of the sea before they went to market we, were told that, you. Know canonically. That women would use this to learn about. Family. Planning and and, take control over the circumstances of their own fertility and and increase their agency, visa vie their own communities, we, were told that the canonical queer, kid in Kansas was. Going to find other people you. Know like themselves and not feel so isolated anymore, and not feel like they were you. Know just one in a, million that was you know arrayed against them but they were gonna find solidarity. And and life. And voices. That that, resemble them and it. Is possible, that all of those things happened, anecdotally. On a small scale but. Something else happened in the meantime which. Was the capture of all of these technologies, and all, of these ambitions, by. Capitol, well. That's was gonna be my next question if 2008, was the day the internet died, I, mean what, was driving the obsession, up to that point what was the driving the obsession, to collect this data to. Make everything ubiquitous. The obsession, to model the world I mean were. These done, with. Very kind of egalitarian. Viewpoints. And just capital, happened to get involved, and caused, the mess that, we've had over the last sort of six years. In. Retrospect, I want to say that those were the last years of the Enlightenment, I really, do I think it's a pretty big claim but I think that the. The the. Technologies, that we attempted, to bring, to bear in those years were sort of the last gasp, of, enlightened. And thought I mean think about it for a second right the idea that with this device that each one of you I assume has in your pocket ear and right now, it, gives you essentially. The. The entirety of human. Knowledge. Instantaneously. More. Or less for free on-demand wherever. You go and you can do with it whatever you will how. Is that not a. Realization. Of all, of, the ambitions, that are inscribed in the Enlightenment project it's really something pretty, utopian. To me and and and and a, fact right, it exists, now, but. We, forgot to disentangle some, things I mean you know much. Of this was done with, again, the the best intentions, if you, look back at. John. Perry Barlow in the Declaration, of Rights of cyberspace, if you look back at again. The californian, ideology, that suffused the early years of web and-and-and. Web development. The, move towards openness the move towards standardization, all, of these things were done with. The. Deepest, dedication, to, the democratization, of access. To information and, if, you think about for example the the slogan of the Whole Earth Catalog you know access to tools and information again this was something, that was realized in the, smartphone project, and delivered, to people by, the hundreds. Of millions, the. Trouble. Is is, that. As I say in my presentations. Something. Else happened and it, wasn't the thing that those of us who were invested, in making this happen. Imagined. Or actually. Believed would happen it, wasn't. Any. Kind, of emancipation except. Perhaps the kind that mark ooza would have called repressive. D supplement, D sublimation, where. All of these things that people had thought, were. Unsayable, in public were. Suddenly validated. By their peer groups were suddenly validated, in their echo chambers and and all of a sudden the the, the most anti-democratic. The most reactionary. Sentiments, became expressible, in public so, in a sense we. Got what we asked for but, it wasn't what we expected that it was do.
You Think there's a degree of, mid-nineties. Retrieval, in the technology, such as blockchain, I mean these guys the. Evangelists, of blockchain, say that they're gonna build web. 3.0. And it's, almost as if they forgot that was John Perry Barlow. Original mission that, decentralized. Web and these guys want to build a decentralized, web but 50%, of them are very young kids, my peers getting, into the cryptocurrency trading. And actually forgetting, what, that underlying technology, could potentially. Do or do you think we've already lost, when. It comes to blockchain. Well. I. Don't think there's nineties retrieval. Going, on in the blockchain so much as a direct, line of continuity, from a 1980s, project. People. In this crowd I I'm I'm reasonably, familiar the people in this audience will, raise. A hand everybody who's ever heard of the Extro, pians oh. My. Goodness none, No my, first interaction with the next drove him was max Moore. So. He was he was the the, transhumanist. Philosopher. And I met him 18 years old in a hotel room in London I'm, so sorry and he told me that I could ask him any question, apart from by the time they cryogenically, froze, his, best friend's, mother so. This was the stroke Ian's philosophy, a lot of those guys went and became CEO so chronics companies and wanted to live forever I mean there was. What. Happened, the, philosophy, never matches the execution, and I wonder why, except. Except, in the blockchain so, so let me let me explain. To you who I think the extra opions are this is a beautiful, vignette that illustrates something about it these, were techno. Libertarians. In. But. Not primarily, of the Bay Area in. The 1980s, they. Were hardcore, Randy, ins they were hardcore. Believers in individual, sovereignty, they thought of the state as an absolutely. Unacceptable, intrusion. On the. Affairs of free sovereign, individuals, they, thought that the, only valid, relations. That ought to exist in the world were relationships, of of contract, between. Free willing consenting, adults and. Like. Other Liberty. Are there any libertarians, in the audience I'm going to offend terribly, by making fun of no-good okay because I think this is fundamentally an adolescent, and specifically, an adolescent, male worldview, it's it's a view that, that suggests, that you know I'm gonna do whatever I want and mommy, and daddy can't tell me that I can't. And there's something, kind of like pissy, about it but, but, these are people who would Swan, around the Bay Area in in, ankle, length leather leather, leather. Trench coats they, gave themselves names. Like max more, you. Know because they're all about the, positive, future and and and you. Know our our positive aspirations. In that future they believed in the absolute. Unlimited. Ambit. Of human progress and they, would give themselves you know they had acronyms, like smile, which was, what. Was smile it was. Forgetting. This but it was something about life extension, was the LE right spa, yeah smart, drugs intelligence. Amplification. And life extension, and they. Thought they were gonna live forever they literally, thought they were gonna live forever and was doing yeah. And one, of the ways that they thought they were gonna do this was by chronically. Freezing, themselves, when they thought they were about to die until. Nanotechnology. Had advanced, to the point that their bodies could be resurrected, their personalities. Could be downloaded into the newly, revived fied bodies and they were gonna go on and live immortal, lives in the paradise to come that was realized through technology, these people really believe this stuff and, they. Were mostly and rightfully. Forgotten. Because this, philosophy, you'll forgive me I personally believe this philosophy, is a joke. Except. A couple, of them went. More. Or less underground, and set, about building a part of this vision not, the cryonic, part not. The smart drugs part not the, infinite. Intelligence expansion. Or the bush robots, or the dyson sphere's around the Sun or the computronium. They. Said about building the. Financial infrastructure. That would be required by. A, universe, that was populated, by sovereign. Individual. Immortal. Entities. And, that's. How we get the blockchain. We. Literally get the whole infrastructure. Of the smart contract and. Smart. Property, and the. Calculational. Establishment. Of trust and the whole trustless, architecture, and infrastructure, the blockchain from.
People Who didn't believe that the state had or any central, authority had. Any rightful business interfering, with our affairs so they built an infrastructure. To, substantiate, the way of life that they believed in and it worked, crazy. Thing is I don't think the corona system, there just. Yet I don't know they even discover blockchain the funny thing about a lot of the extra. P folks you talk about is they, got a chip in the shoulder about the fact that they didn't. Make a bunch of money and what happened in the 90s and COEs, well then took the singularity, term and made it marketable. And now Elon is running around and Peter too is running around doing a lot of the stuff that they prophesized, but they, don't get the credit for it and they've got a weird sort of chip on their shoulder it's a lot of quiet. Blogs on the corners, dark corners of the internet where they go and we said that in the 80s but you know these, guys are booting it screw, them and honestly if I were max Moore and Natasha vitam, or his. Partner I would feel the same way they were they were saying these things before, Peter Thiel thought to infuse his and his veins with virgin blood you, know they were saying these things before. Yeah. Before Elon came around to, say that he'd gotten a verbal government, approval for a vacuum evacuated, to beneath Washington, DC yeah, they were they, they. Whether. Its credit or blame that they're looking for they deserve it. Leave. It in that I do want to go back to blockchain. Though do you think it's a get-rich-quick. Scheme. At the moment for crypto currency traders or, do you think, perhaps. Just, maybe there's. Something more. Hopeful. There can, we build a decentralized, web that John Perry Barlow had I mean ogen Springs the blockchain folks, and the pain, we. Speaking to them is they so desperately, want to be taken seriously like the web 2.0 web. 2.0, folks well they call it web 3.0, but they borrow the language from web 2.0, so, they call their apps dat's a decentralized. Apps. Stupid, term I've ever heard yeah. What. The is a decentralized, app, they're trying to make it looks, and a market, like web soup I know you know I didn't know when I came here, that I was gonna be in such you, know comfortable. I this is this is like you know we're we're having like I hope. Somebody in the crowd really radically, disagrees, with the opinions that we're expressing up here because, that's the only way this is ultimately gonna be a value for anybody all right sir is if we don't because if we agree so we can make a load of money off of either what's wrong with the theorem it. Went up 120, dollars after the crash last week but, okay. So. The. Thing about Ponzi schemes is that the people who are invested, and them believe in them, it's. Entirely legitimate.
That. You know from from their perspective, it, any, multi-level. Marketing organization. You know relies after, the first couple of people on people who are true, believers and, and. They propagate, the the value framework of the. Multi-level, marketing organization, or the Ponzi scheme out into the world and. They're very you know like any other religion, we get invested, in things I mean I've probably, got things that I'm invested, in that you could confront me with objective. Evidence. You. Know that that I was wrong and it would only reinforce, me in my insistence that I was correct right because that's the way the human psyche appears to work we, now know this that that, you you can't, argue people. With logic, or reason, out of a position that they haven't gotten into by way of logic, or reason and the. Secret is is that most of the things we believe we didn't arrive at rationally, so, a lot. Of the enthusiasm for, for blockchain, is being propagated by people who are. Invested. In it and to me the interesting question, is why are they invested, in it what. Vision, of the future are. They trying to get to there. Are. The. Most heartbreaking thing, for, me is the people on the horizontal, list left who. Are really, invested in blockchain, psychically. Because, they think it will realize, the. Kind of utopian. Left anarchist, future, and, which, is you know a future that I personally um, you. Know my politics, are. You. Know libertarian, socialist, or, you know democratic. Confederal, list whatever you want to call it it's horizontal, list you know all that stuff so, yeah do I want to believe that blockchain, can make that happen of course I would love to believe that. But. I've. Done, just enough, digging to find out that the odds of that happening are not terribly. Great and if, you want, to achieve those, goals goals. Of confederalism, or municipal, ism or horizontal, ism or participatory, democracy, much. Better off trying to realize them directly, rather. Than automating. The the achievement, of that goal by. Embracing. Blockchain, technology, so what do you mean realize them directly. It's, not gonna be. Nearly. As sexy but I mean having neighborhood, councils, neighborhood, committees, you, know affinity, groups that you work in you know the, the most amazing, thing to me at this time is to look at the. Real-world examples. Of confederal. Lists and municipal, lists who, are making. Headway in the world who aren't basing. Their actions, and their efforts on utopian. Technologies, but actually going out and doing the hard work of organizing people almost. Is it for the 1930s. Right, there of course are they using their smartphones yes are they using, you know telegraph yeah, of course they are are, they using text messages, and and and Google Docs are they using you know cloud-based applications. To suit your people. And communities, together of course they are because we're not in the 1930s. And we do have tools that we didn't use to but, the, real hard work is the work of retail politics, it's the work of engaging people I die directly. And and. Accounting. For their humanity. Their reality, their, grievances. Their hopes their desires, that. Is not something as yet, that I can see being instantiated on, any infrastructure. Blockchain. Or otherwise, and having, the same kind of impact in the world, firstly. You've, written a lot about the city and I want to go back to IOT. The. Internet of Things so you, said, you. Know you were seeing it in 2008. I mean I was seeing about 2012. The excitement, over smart fridges which seems, to repeat itself every three years I had infinitum. And, we never got it and. Yet. There's still a drive towards. This thing with the smart city but with things that are happening in the UK, specifically. With, the NHS, heck I mean are we thinking the Subba security, implications, of networking and entire, city. No. We're not and and the reason is as, I say in the book is I argue in the book it's an artifact of business, model and, here again is why you.
Know It de-stresses me, that specifically. That capital captured, the Internet of Things, when, you, go to. Know. What's the name of the big British chain you know cellphone warehouse or whatever the one that's on you, know Tottenham, Court Road, telephone. Warehouse fine yeah okay you go in there and you buy a. Webcam. Right. And that webcam may, be 10 quid at this point the. Fact that it was engineered, so. That it could be delivered, to you at 10 quid and the. Manufacturer, and the vendor is still going to be able to make a profit on it means, that absolutely, no provision, for security, can. Be incorporated into that device it's it's simply cutting into somebody's profit margin it will not happen and so. The technical capability. Exists, to. To. Provide each one of these devices with some kind of buffer against the worst sort of eventualities. But. For reasons of. Profit. That. That hasn't been done and so you can go there and you can buy a webcam, and you can slap it up you know in your nursery or, in your living room or in your garage and, odds. Are, that, unless, you're very thoughtful. Very knowledgeable. You know what you're doing you read the manual and you and you configure, the thing properly um. You know guess what there are search engines, that. Are gonna automatically. Search the internet for open, ports, for. It for cameras, that are speaking to the Internet through that port and that don't have a password or have the default password, securing. That feed and you. Know literally, somebody. 8,000. Miles away, can. Search for. Open webcams and find them and and we're talking about webcams, that are looking on to baby's. Cribs we're. Talking about webcams, that are looking on to weed, grow-ops. We're, talking about you. Know the back offices, of fast. Food restaurants, you. Name it it's out there and the. Reason that you can see all of these things from, the safety and comfort of your room is. It the manufacturer, probably in Shenzhen. You. Know they're making two, or three pennies, on each one of these cameras sold if they had bothered to actually, engineer it so that it could be secured, that, profit would have evaporated so. You, know and it's, the same thing you, know there's always this, motive, wherever, you look in the internet of things you crop up against this and frankly, I'll be very honest with you I wish this weren't so it, is actually. Boring, for me at this point to open up the paper and see, the, latest example, you know everybody. Over the last couple of days everybody's, probably seen the thing about Roombas have you all seen the thing about Roombas now you. Know what Roombas are doing everybody. Loves Roombas because they're seen as being these harmless robots, that, kind of humbly vacuum, your home it. Turns out that Roomba, is by definition and, in order to do what they do have. The ability to map your home, in high resolution and now. In search, of another revenue stream the, vendor of Roombas is selling, that information, or is excuse, me contemplating. Selling that information, to. The, highest bidder you didn't. Know when. You put that little hockey, puck thing down to vacuum, up the cat hair in your house that you were mapping. Every contour, of your existence, in high resolution and selling that to somebody and oh by the way not deriving any financial advantage, from that yourself but giving up that, financial, advantage, to the vendor in the third party you had no idea you were never asked for your consent you were never notified but. That's what's happening and I. Promise. You it is no fun, at this point to. Be the, anti-capitalist. Cassandra, who. Sits up here and says guess what you guys this. Is what's going on it because, people like ah god you again you, again you're so like. You're so, you're. No fun, why, won't you let us have our robots, why. What's wrong with having a webcam in the house and I'm like fine. If you don't mind the idea of a hacker and Kazakhstan, looking, into your kid's playroom you. Know at will be, my guest but I wouldn't. Do that well. There's the macroscale of the home but there's also the. Microscale of the home is the macro scale of the, city itself, or the a lot of excitement around autonomous. Vehicles, self-driving. Cars and some of the most. Troubling stuff that I've seen written is when, all of these cars are, connected, because whether it's driven by a human or it's driven by a machine every. Single one will have to have a beacon, at least in the UK policy, currently will have to have a beacon to identify, where it is on the road the, ability to take control of others cars is, open.
Up And, we won't have just one London, Bridge event. Where we have someone careening, a truck, that they hired into. A bunch of people we could have 16, simultaneously. Done, by a truck that. Was driven by someone who had no agency, over, the fact that that was gonna go kill people my, issue is the cybersecurity on, a wide, scale why are we not there yet why are we not just running. Petrified. From a lot of this IOT, stuff going are you, kidding me because you've already answered the question I mean it as a matter of fact it'd be easier, to do it by powers. Of two simultaneously. Right it would be easier to do 64. Trucks simultaneously. Or 256. Trucks, simultaneously. Because. They're all the same standard, model and they all have the same security package right weren't you know it, you can capture multiple, cameras, at once because they don't have security. On them you, know I promise. You that there's gonna be a vendor of automobile, networking. You. Know that is gonna have a similar, lack of attention to detail and it will simply be easier to, do it all at once why are we not running screaming from these things well we. Believe, in the future and, we believe that the future is going to be better and we believe I mean. Putting. Putting the question of terrorism. To the side why. Is it that we never talk about autonomous. Public, transport, why. Is it that when we imagine, the. Driverless car the autonomous, vehicle we, always imagine it as simply. The. Car that we that, people own now but. Without a steering, wheel because of the manufacturers. Missing. Are, terrified, that nobody's gonna buy cars so on their right yeah and the insurance companies, some even more petrified, if you can prove you're never gonna have a crash, by, by Aviva. You're. Right you're right so, again. This is, a drumbeat that, that, I'm sure gets tiring for people kappa ttle ism is the problem right capitalism.
Is The ultimate framework in which all of the in. Which our imaginary, is embedded, and we, have a really really hard time, seeing. Outside that framework and saying well. Maybe these things could be collective, goods maybe. These things could be municipally-owned. Maybe these things don't have to replicate, all of the mistakes that we've made over the last hundred years wouldn't, that be amazing the. Trouble is that you. Know it's the most enormous cliche, on the, left it. Is easier, to imagine the end of the world than it is to imagine the end of capitalism like this is such a cliche that. It's like one of those inspirational, quotes on facebook nobody's quite sure who said it originally, and there are multiple people you know Abraham Lincoln probably said it and. And. We need to begin urgently, imagining, what. That looks like because if we don't we're. Never going to be able to imagine a place for these technologies in our lives that responds, to the most basic. Considerations. Of human, decency in, the kind of world that we want to live in it's that simple you, know and and I don't if you don't already, agree, with me I do not I certainly don't expect to convince you tonight this is simply. My opinion but. It is, you'll. Forgive me it's an opinion that is, bolstered. By a. Depressingly. Consistent. Litany of evidence, over, what, is now 15, or 20 years every. Single. Time. We. Seize on a technology, that. Looks as though it. Might be used for something interesting something, you. Know outside the envelope of everything, that we expect everything that we're accustomed to it, gets captured and turned back and in, amazingly. Short periods. Of time it. Like, one. Of you is gonna have to do better it's. Gonna you're gonna have to go out there and and, rip, this envelope, of constraints, to shreds and imagine.
Something That that doesn't look like everything that we've already been. Offered because, otherwise it's just gonna be more the same over and over and over again and you. Know I'm I'm old, now right I don't want to leave that, you know the declining years of my life in an environment, where I've seen this all before, it's all you know somebody. Come at me with, something profoundly, new and different and I will be the very first person to applaud you I, just. Wanted from, the floor I mean who still. Believes. In the future. Welcome. One hand welcome, to virtual agency we. Found the others and. We're, all on God, knows what. We. Spoke a lot about depression you wanna you wanna you wanna kick the the mic into the crowd and, before. We do that I have one I have, one. Other. Question which I think I'm gonna jump. Should, we just embrace the acceleration, is thought should. We just go you know what if capital is the thing that's driving this or let's just accept it let's run for it let's accept. That humans are just here to train the machines to take over when we finally are killed off by them or or we no longer have, the biology, to survive the environments, we're in because we it up and it'll, be OK for some of the humans because those would be the guys who fly off to Mars and have their own little species, there's sub speciation, planets, there I just wonder should we embrace the acceleration, estoy. Muy. Allow some humans to just sub. Speciate, yeah. Well, you're. All welcome to but I can't, and I couldn't bear myself if I did because. Honestly. Acceleration. ISM feels to me like a remarkably. Privileged, position, it's, something that people who are already. Safe. And comfortable can, say throw caution to the winds let it all fly right, you, can say that if you've, got a, roof. Over your head and, you. Know, food. In your belly and and. Healthcare for the rest of your life it's easy to say that. If. You're any closer, to the edge than that if you have any. Real. Amount of. What. We now call precarity, fear. In your life if you have fear, in your belly. Because. You've watched the people around you struggle, with, their. Health or their. Mental health if you, have if. You've, been touched in any way by. The economic, downturn that's, kind of taken up residence, in our lives since since the introduction, of austerity. If, you, perceive. Yourself to in any way not have been advantaged, by the past 40, years of, neoliberal. Hegemony. Across the Western world, it's, impossible, to embrace acceleration. ISM if you have a beating, heart and and, anything resembling a soul it's, my own personal opinion I hope I'm not. Insulting. Any of you but that that is you know acceleration ISM to me is is, an. Abdication of responsibility for. The other human beings you share the planet with and also by the way the the non-human beings and sentences. That you share the planet with so. On that, note whether you believe in the future or not we are gonna throw it out to audience questions we're. Gonna see if this this, might works and we're gonna hand this mic around. We're. So understaffed it's, incredible, so if anybody wants to run a mic that would be great or we could work as a collaborative unit, and pass, this mic which way we can make it happen I'm sure we can make it work and we'll sometimes we have to just grab mic so for people by the way a question, has an intonation at the end so if you have any questions, oh right, yeah no that's a really really good point. I do a lot of talks where people make reflections. Right. I'm sure you've all got fascinating. Things to say but I would love to hear those things afterwards, over, a beer, and, right, now it's literally, four questions. That we will attempt to answer, if. You have a reflection, to make maybe. The time for that is later on, wonderful. Any questions. I'll. Grab this you get a mic -. Hello. Howdy. And. What's. Your name man my name is matthew charmers I'm an academic from the University of Glasgow there you go and. I. Just came I just walked up now from a, meeting, in Her Majesty's, Treasury. Where. There are people from government trying. To find out about distributed. Ledger technologies. And what. They might do, about. It they're skeptical, but interested and they're being hit by this wave of hype and. I was one of the people they are throwing rocks because. I think the hype is just gonna become totally overblown you, start throwing rocks since I've known you it's. Why change the habit of a lifetime. So. I wonder whether Adam. And the others would like to what, would their message be to the, people from the Justice, the Department and the Treasury and, the.
And, The bank's I just talked to you because it was really, freaky um. I would I would love to pick your brain over a beer as to what that meeting looked like to the degree that you're comfortable sharing it I said. They were skeptical. And that's. Fascinating to me like, you, know I assume. My, default. Assumption is that those people are not stupid, and, and, they have a certain ability to know when they're being pushed into. A corner. But. They don't always have, the tools to resist that and so, my question to them would be what is it that people are asking of them why. Is it the distributed, ledger which is you know not, not. Identical. With blockchain, we need to be very careful with the terminology here, but. What, is it that they hope to achieve with the distributed, ledger and are. There not possibly, other ways of achieving those ends that are that. Don't involve the, transition, to an entirely new and unproven, technology. That. Would be I mean yeah, seriously I mean like I'm, jealous, that you got to be in that room I'm grateful. That it was you in that room and. I'm. Sure, I mean but but I think that um. You, know dare I hope that I'm knocking you you can see me knocking on the chair here instead. Of not yours would not none would dare I. Hope that, we have been. Burned, enough, at this point that. That. We. And we have plenty of case studies to point to where. Some, multi-billion. Or ten tens, of billions of pounds of investment was made in the technology, and a, technology vendor that. Turned out to not have the best interests of the public entirely. You, know dare I hope I don't know it's. It's an amazing circumstance. To think of and I. Would love to catch up with you more afterwards and find out what that conversation went like, any. Any, other question. Say. Your name please well, so if anyone if anyone wants, to earn, himself a beer I really need someone to run that - so, if anybody can help they'll be great sorry my, name is Jaya and I, am, writing, a PhD, on blockchain, technology, and, I would love to also hear more about what, happened, in that meeting my, question is not about blockchain though I'm. More curious about the. Conversation. That the two of you are having were very much kind of focused on accidents. And, potential. Security, problems, with, digital technologies, and, usually. When like. That framing, happens, it. Kind of turns the problem into just another problem for technology to solve as in okay, there's a security, problem you know let's get some cryptographers. In bold let's get some you know it's. Another problem to be solved by more technology, so I was wondering if there's like a different kind of angle or some other kind of aspects. Of the critique I mean you mentioned you know a kind of general. Critique of capitalism which, you know sounds. Fantastic, yeah. But I was wondering like some of the more specific angles, that you cover in the book yep. I wonder. I do wonder you know I. In. The 1960s. And I'm gonna forget and not be able to to. Cite this appropriately, but there was a body, of thought and what was then called human factors research about. Normal, accidents, and. You. Know you can you can look this up right now and you can find the canonical paper on normal accidents, but the idea was that in any. Of, the complex, processes, the, you know and I think the the canonical example here, is a nuclear power plant that any. Of the complex processes, that we have installed at the heart of the. Ways in which we, do. Life. Under, late capitalism, at this point in time. Accidents. Aren't accidents. We can expect, that. Our processes, are inherently, braided, enough and complicated, enough and and thorny, enough and counterintuitive. Enough that. Errors, will arise at. Predictable. Intervals, or, at least you know predictably, and. I thought. In the seed of that was something profound and not. Merely, amenable, to technical, resolution, because I as, I understood, it the point of that argument was, to say not to slap a quick technical fix on a system, that, you know is going to throw errors at intervals. But. In a sense to redefine. Processes. Around. What. We understand, about. Who. We are and what we do and how we approach problems. It, isn't, simply to build backups, and cascading. You know. Redundancies. Into. Into complicated, systems it's to accept that we. Make mistakes and and. I think. It's. That it's that acceptance, of human, frailty that I found particularly radical and particularly refreshing. That. Ultimately. Any of our institutions are going to be marked by. You. Know it's it's no longer done to say human nature so I won't say human nature but anything. That we invent anything that we devise anything. That we come up with is, gonna be marked by our humaneness, and, instead. Of running from that it.
Might, Be best to try and wrap our heads around what that implies for ourselves and to, cut ourselves a goddamn break, you. Know and to not ask, that. We be these sort of high-performance, machines, that. Are simply you know made out of flesh and blood but that are slotted into other networks, of. Machines, that don't happen to me made out of flesh and blood I thought. That there was a hopeful moment in there that could have been retrieved and developed. And, I, think frankly that there still could be I think that that most of what gives me hope at this point our. Processes. Which are not, at all you. Know sexily. High technology, but are precisely about understanding. How, people, arrive at decisions under. Situations of limited information and, pressure and I. Think, that's why I got, involved in what, was then called human factors in the first place was because the. World is complicated, and it. Is heterogeneous, and there's not going to be any critical, path to a. Golden, key solution. To any of this we have to work at it together and it's. A process, that is. Painstaking. And and involved, and frustrating. Oh my god is it frustrating and, and to my mind the more that we understand, that and the more our technologies. Inscribe. That lesson for us in ways, that we can't possibly miss the, better off we are is. That a, reasonable. Answer, groovy. My. Flip side of that is we can't prepare, for it and we need the, catastrophe. To occur so, philosophers, have been arguing about the trolley argument, with regards to self-driving, cars but God knows how long we, won't give two shits until, a car actually, kills, someone and so, blood is actually spilt, and with critique. Of the extra be folks they, thought they were gonna get there living, forever futures, without, anybody. Dying, if. You're an experiment. On with. Certain types, of medical. Technology on individuals, to help them live. Longer then. You're gonna have to experiment, on human individuals, eventually, and there will be mistakes, the, history of science shows us that now. Professor Steve fuller who who we've had here, a lot that virtual futures has argued that maybe the, only way to actually make some of these these crazy, visions, possible. Is that we sign up for our humanity in. The same way in the 1930s. You signed up for Queen and country to go to war you'd, sign up for your humanity, and you would go and get your weird. Biotech. Experiment, to see if it made you live longer because if it did you would be a pioneer for the future of humanity and if you died when you died in the service of the, future, of the, human race. Whether. We'd ever get there or not I think. You make a really good point though which is that, when. The extra pians did have literally, their heads cut off and frozen in liquid nitrogen and, they. Entrusted, their heads to these repositories that. They thought were gonna last for 10,000 years the. Holding company went bankrupt and. Forgot. And and and defaulted. On their electric bill the electric, bill and the coolers wasn't, paid the. Coolers you, know were shut off by the electric company the. The facility, reached room temperature, the coolant you know leaked, out of the vessels and the heads rotted you, know that you know that solution, for that no. Pun intended go ahead they want they were here they. Would they want to send him to space yeah, of. Course they do they need more space to bury dead people so the coldest coldest. Vacuum, is space so why don't you just have them orbiting.
So But I didn't for Nitin I'm, I'm serious, I completely. Believe you but but the point is is that human institutions, you. Know they're, not trans human they're not posthuman, we're, all too human right we we, go bankrupt and we don't pay the power bill and then, the power company, cuts, off the path this is what happens the, the Space Launch System you. Know somebody. Transposes, something that was in metric to imperial and, the, you know that the capsule that was supposed to orbit you know in in a comfortably, tolerable environment. And keep your head frozen for ten million years is. Launched, into the song you know who knows. We. We the. People. Who believe these things believe. In the perfectibility, of things which have never in our history ever, once, been perfect before and they're, betting everything on that perfection and I, find it touchingly, naive and childlike but, but, as a political, program. Culpably. Naive, and to be fought with every fiber of my being which, is the other piece, of your book the thing that unites all those technologies, is a drive for optimization. Whether. It's the sissy the human or anything else in between we're, we're. Hoping. I'm not insulting, any of you none. Of us in this room are optimal, like I'm not optimal, I'll never be optimal, I'll. Never be anything close to optimal I'm much I wanna be optimal. You. May have different, ambitions and I wish you the best of luck but. I, think, it's gonna be a rough road. Found. Someone who's kind enough to run this money thank you so much. And. You're, not yourself asking a question. Thank. You. There. We go um well. My. Name is Tara um, hello. On, that note with optimization, could you not say that it's somehow linked to capitalism, that you're always chasing this goal that you can never achieve and, and we're now bringing that to ourselves with, physically. Your, you're meant to follow and you know you could say the same thing with a sort of gym, craze. That everyone, seems to be going, through is like you're. Finding. This optimal, being, yeah. I think I think that. Capitalism. Is almost too easy, a, bugbear. Though, because Optima the desire to optimize, or to perfect as older than capitalism, and and. It's almost as if it has. Vamper, eyes capitalism. To extend itself that. Logic, of wanting, to perfect, ourselves to, measure ourselves against, the gods. You. Know it's not new and it's, not it's, not.
Shallow. Either I, understand. Why it exists, but. The fact of the matter is that. When. We go to the gym I go to the gym you, know I will spend, 90. Minutes tomorrow on an, elliptical machine why, will I spend 90 minutes on the elliptical machine well because, I want to be fitter why do I want to be fitter I want, to look better in my clothes I want people to think that I'm more attractive, I want I want, people to think that I'm more attractive, so that they are more likely to want, to invite me to things because my financial, future depends. On me being invited to things I mean all of these you. Know these. These things are not innocent and and, the motivations, and the desires that we recognize, in ourselves aren't. There by accident and I'm not gonna say that they're always in a hundred percent there because, of you know capitalism that's kind of shallow. But. They're invidious, and and. What. I would ask is that, we each have the courage to, ask of ourselves why, it is that we, feel that we need to be like, some gung-ho, NASA, astronaut. Of the 1960's, kick the tires and light the fires you know why is it that we, feel called upon to operate, in these high-performance regimes. When we're after, all simply. Human I. Think. All soon that's a failure with the extra. Pins so, the morphological freedom, thesis, was we're. Gonna be stronger, better faster, more. Optimized the thing they forgot is in, actual fact that doesn't make us better as a entire, species the thing that we should do is embrace. Difference. It wasn't survival of the fittest it was survival of the mutant the. Individual, and the, animal, that can actually survive the weird ways in which the environment would manipulate, them. And it wasn't the fittest one that survived and, I wonder if we embrace difference. Instead, instead, of driving towards optimization. That would have a more, interesting. Experience or will. It go fully, the other way and what sub speciate, and where we'll have those guys who go, off planet and the rest of us that we left there yeah, I think you're you're, hitting. On something true and real and interesting like, before, Boeing Boeing was a website, it was a fanzine, and and. And, I think its tagline was something like happy. Facts for happy mutants or something like that and the happy mutants part was important right it. Was the idea that we weren't gonna be constrained, by the human body plan and that we were going to invent. Or discover, or explore, new spaces like, not. Merely, new. Expressions, of self new genders, new identities, new, personas. New ways of being human new ways of being alive and that. Was startlingly, Liberatore, it. Really was. You. Know in 1985, or so that felt like. Something worth investing. In and something worth betting on and I, think it is sort of the failure. Of the collective imagination that we, now interpret, freedom. To. Mean essentially the freedom to oppress. And exploit other, human beings and. And the, non-human population. Of this planet because it did at, one point mean, every.
Single Time I see somebody who's still you know like their body hacking, or they're putting a chip into their wrist or something like that I have. Mixed feelings because, on the one hand I. See. The. Last surviving. Know, you know that somebody's hitting of. Something, that was much bigger and more hopeful and I, also see all the ways in which that's the the totality, of the ways in which that's been captured and turned, against the original ambition, and it's a melancholy, and a complicated. Feeling but you're right I mean maybe there's something in that to be retrieved. And and, brought forward to the present moment I can. Only hope another, question mr., Ono. Hey. My name is Henri, I'm French but I'm sure you've already heard that anyway. So. My question is. Well. Done yeah so. Anyways, so like we know like robots, are taking more and more jobs everywhere, and like, we they believe that creativity, is one of the only sector that won't be tired by automation but. Do you think that robot, can be creative, and if yes is that mean we reached a kind of singularity. So. I don't believe in singularities. Bang. So, let's dispense with that, i. Weirdly. Enough though hey. There's some tension between the two parts of my answer I, think. The singularity, is is, a human. Ideology. I. Think, it doesn't correspond, to the nature of non-human. Intelligence. I do. Think. Non-human, intelligences. Are capable of being creative, and let. Me not specifically. For the second talk about machine, ik intelligences. I think that we know by. Analogy, to other forms, of non-human, intelligence, that. Are capable of creating. Using. The world as an expressive medium. That. You, cannot tell me that. The. Informational, content of, whale song is all that it's about you cannot tell me that that bird song is simply. About, conveying information it, is a presentation, of self it is, an embroidery, on the available. Communication. Channel and it. There is pleasure that is taken in that act so I would interpret that bird. Song whale song, communications. Of animals in general as, expressive. And creative acts, right. Here right now without even to think about without even having to think about machine intelligence, so. Do I believe that, we, will, relatively. Soon arrive, at a place in which. Algorithmic. Systems are generating. Semantic. Structures. Communicative. Structures. Expressive. Structures, for their own pleasure, or. Something. Indistinguishable. From pleasure, yeah I do I absolutely. Do I do not think that creativity, is the last refuge, of the human I think, for, all that I am in many. Ways a humanist. In the old-fashioned. Way it's. Very difficult, for me to say, to draw any line at any point and say there this is the unique thing about, humans, that nothing, else in the universe is capable of and, as. A matter of fact what. Turned. Me what, what converted. Me to this position was in fact an attempt to do that was. The attempt to find something uniquely and distinctively, human and you. Know if you have any intellectual, integrity at all if you, go down this path you find pretty quickly there's, nothing, that we do that other species don't do there's nothing that we do that other complicate, complex, systems in the universe don't do very. Very very, little it turns out is distinctively. Human so. Yes I do believe in relatively short order we will be confronted, if in fact they don't already exist and, we're. Just simply not perceiving, them in. The way that an ant doesn't perceive a superhighway, that's. Rushing past its anthill right. It is possible, that these, expressive, and communicative, structures, are, already, in existence at, a scale or at. A level of reality that we do not perceive but. Even. Putting that possibility, to the side yes. I think that we will invent. And create machining. System which. Will to all intents and purposes realize. Things. Which we can only understand, as art or as creative, or as expressive, and. Then. The question becomes what rights, does. Our law. Provide. For. Those sentient. Beings because they will be sentient, what, space do we make for them that is anything but slavery and how. Do we treat them that is in any way different the way that we treat people at present, you know Norbert Wiener in I'm. Gonna say 1949. And somebody will Google this and tell me that I'm wrong but, his is one of his first works of thought in cybernetic, theory was called the human use of human beings. And I, come back to that framing, a lot it. Is about the use of, things. That are regarded as objects. And not, things which are recorded their own subjectivity, their own interior already, their own person / their their own being and I.
Think That we're going to have to confront that in, our law in our culture and in. Our ways of interacting with one another sooner. Rather than later. Hey. I'm at homo Scotland, hey. Hey what's. Up, you. Mentioned you want to see the end of capitalism and, I'm, all for it, actually. We want to work on that do you have any ideas for me, yeah. I do. Oh Jalan, gogo. The founder of the PKK in Turkey he wrote a book called democratic, and federalism, go read it. Great. Book. Hi. I'm Simon from Brighton, hi Simon what's. Your view on how. Employments. Gonna be affected, over the next 20 years by all of these changes we've been talking about yeah. Talks. About how the extra pians we're gonna have their futures without, having to die we. Get our futures and still get to keep our jobs I, think. We need to accept, that, a jut that our language, around this stuff is is. Braided. And Inter woven with assumptions which are not no longer tenable so, what, is a job a job, is, a thing, that we do during the hours of our days, that. Is remunerative. To us and that generates value for the economy, and that. Somehow. Most of us are expected, to have as a consequence, of being adults in a, culture that expects, full employment or something close to full employment and, in which a metric, of the healthy functioning of the economy is that there, is something close to full employment of. Human beings and. I. Think that all. Of those assumptions. Are, becoming. Subject to challenge if they haven't been challenged, already right. So. The. Notion that a job is a, thing that you go to is, already you know it's already been explode. Disassembled. By the past 30 or 40 years of experience like, we have, tasks. Now rather than jobs and we no longer gig. Economy, that. Was the first assault on these ideas, but. Then comes the idea that that there are tasks, which, automated, systems can perform, at, much, lower cost than human beings and, particularly. If we accept the thesis that I've just argued to the gentleman who asked the the previous, question, before one that. There are very few tasks, in the economy, that, cannot ultimately be, performed, by machining, systems, right. Like we like I, used to make this argument to, like. Ad agency, people and they, would say oh you know a guy who puts, together cars, on an assembly line yeah that can be automated away and a nurse you. Know well well the job of a nurse can be automated away we'll find people to wipe, the butts of people in nursing homes and robots will do that and algorithms, will do the rest but, I am the creative director, of an, ad agency and you'll. Never automate, away the things that I do the spark, of creative. Fire you. Know that I bring and I'm, like dude do you understand, you know what a Markov chain is and do, you understand, how. You. Know I, could. Take the whole corpus. Of 20th century advertising. And generate entirely new campaigns, out, of what worked in the past you know so there's, there's very little, that I see again as being beyond the ability to be automated and I think that when that happens. We. Really really have to wrestle. With the idea that the assumptions, upon which the. Econometrics. That. A healthy economies, a assess. On are, misguided. Right. That the whole notion of economic, growth the whole notion of the. Wise stewardship. Of a nation-state being, one that's that's you know coextensive. With economic, growth that, is expressed. In in something close to full employment we, need to we need to devise systems that. That replace all of that because it's all on its way out.
At. This point most people talk about ubi, they. Say, the universal, basic income is, is going to save us all and I. Say well that's great I love the, ubi. But. Surely, you're talking also about the ubi in a context, of universal, health care and. The. Right to housing and. You. Know the right to shelter aren't you because if you're, not the ubi will wind up getting siphoned, back off of people in terms in in the form of user fees for, services, which used to be provided by the public and are now suddenly privatized. If we, simply hav