Energy Seminar | John Deutch
National, treasure. Means. Old. That's. Always I. Love. Coming to Stanford I enjoy, every. Day. That I'm here I think, it's a fourth or fifth year that I've come for. The month of January, and, every time I learned. Something and I enjoy myself and, I actually believe, that this year has been the most enjoyable of all. Of them so. I want to thank a runner, I want. To thank everyone. Else Sally, she's, not here now, for, letting me come here and fighting me here John I hope, from now on you will introduce me if I ask. Jim. Sweeney it's a great pleasure to see you mr. secretary, thank. You very much for coming. So. I'm. Going to talk to you about a particular, subject. And that subjects, right here on the slide it is, a near. Carbon-free. Electricity. Generation. From. Renewables. And using. Storage, it. Uncharacteristically. I have. Been an optimist, I am an optimist, about this and I, believe we are very close, to. Having an economically. Competitive. Triad. Wind. Solar. And storage, to. Produce electricity, at the, lowest, causal, as a cost as, low as the cheapest, fossil, alternative, which. Was natural, gas combined, cycle that. Is what I'm here to speak to you about. Nobody. Has given me instructions about, this ah. So. Here are by four points. The four points I asked you to take away, that. We are close to having this be a commercial. Operation. That. The main uncertainty. Is the future, of storage, costs. But, just like other renewables. Who. Have fallen in cost like a stone, this. One is on a path of becoming much, cheaper, well I'm going to let you choose what. You think the costs, of storage. Are going to be in the few, a key. Question. That one has in, producing. Such generation. In this particular hybrid, way. Is. To say what is the availability. Going, to be or, you could ask for carbon free storage a hundred. Percent of the time that you meet demand or only, 95, percent of the time that you meet demand because, meaning, that last increment, of demand is, terribly, expensive to, do but here again I will, allow you to make your choice of where you want to do it, and. Finally I'm, going to propose, a, different. Policy. For. Encouraging. This technology. That, means. That I want to find a way to introduce, it and have the private sector see what, the results are and have them make the investments, in the future which. Means that I am opposed, to, mandatory. Regulation. For introducing storage, such. As is practiced, in this Far West quarter. Of the United States in. Contrast. To, looking. At another way, of encouraging. It by doing, a demonstration project. Here's. The system I'm looking at, variable. Renewable, energy sources wind, and solar, an. Energy, storage. System, ESS. Both. Of them go. With direct current coupling. To. Power. Control, systems, and they, meet the, load L, there, that's the system I'm looking at and. They're these three components, wind and solar the renewable pieces and storage. And. Here's. How I'm going to look, at this problem, I'm. Going to use this procedure, first. As an example, I'm going to choose one load, area, and. What I did is I chose a load area, as, close, to my birthdate, as I could, it, turned out to be in the middle of Texas, in. The ERCOT, service, area I looked. At the load. Or. I presented me with a load and every day of the year I think I took the year 2016. I and, my colleagues, I should have my colleagues, on the first slide if you, could say Dortch doesn't, know anything about storage, but yet bing Chang certainly, does. So. Uh I, took this as. The. Demand. Load a meeting, is at a cot for this year, every, day of the year a hundred percent of the time.
Then. I go to NREL, and, I say what is the sunlight at that point, and. How. Much electricity can, I expect for that and they have both the data of the. Irradiance. And they, have a tool which allows you to translate, that into. Kilowatts. Per meter squared. And. Then. Wind the same thing they, report the data at that point every. Hour of every, day of the year and, they, also provide a simpler, tool to tell you how much wind generation, there is they. Of course have the capacity. Factor built, into that data and we know that wind does not shine, all the time and I'm. Sorry, wind does shine all the time. And, then. We perform an optimization. Which I'm only going to give you the results of I'm not going to go into it and, secondly, that, we do it for a fixed, availability. Saying what percentage, of that load do I want to meet. Here. Is the answer on this one chart it. I will spend a few moments, going. Over it, on. The base is. The cost of my at the total cost of the, energy system measured. In dollars per kilowatt, hour on, the. Y-axis is. The. Power of that storage, system, of, measured in dollars per kilowatt. Now. We know where some, of those storage, technologies. Are on that chart today and. We have estimates, of where they'll be on the future but. I allow you. And. Your investment, advisors, to. Say where they're going to be a few years from now you. Could choose where it's going to be and. I should say and underscore, heavily, that. The storage system, here I'm agnostic. With, respect to technology for storage. But. We are looking. At, such. Areas is using, or hydro. Storage. Pubs. And conventional. Hydra hydra hydra. Hydra. Namek storage we. Are looking at compressed, air storage and. Of course we're looking at array of battery types and, not for the sake of illustration. I. Use. Here both, lithium-ion, batteries. And flow batteries and, I mark there with an X in. These two variables that characterize, their cost power and energy I marked. With an X the future the present cost of lithium-ion batteries, the, proposed, projected. Future cost and I, prepared. To flow battery costs. On. The chart the result of the optimization. Tells. You the combinations. In terms. Of the least cost. Combinations. Which, will meet that fixed, load at, that. Point in the service. Area, so, if you look at the curves they, are measured, here in dollars. Per megawatt. Hour so. They go from lithium-ion. Today if you have to use that boy. Well is this ever going to be a just a. Ha. You, would be paying $13. 130, dollars per megawatt hour or. 13. Cents, per kilowatt hour quite, a high price, at generation. But. If you look all the way in the future you, can see that at the flow, battery, proposed, future cost, in the two dimensional choice that you have you. Would be played doing $60, per megawatt hour six cents per kilowatt hour which. Is what we. Are told by those reliable. People in, New York. Now. I've lost the name of the bank which says was. That you. See this, is why you can't, trust, you. Just can't trust people here they.
Know The names of thanks I don't know the names of things so uh in any event they're at $60, per megawatt hour 6 cents per kilowatt hour and there, you see the compressed natural gas price. Falls. Right on top of it so future. Batteries would make it if you believe that number of the cost of the storage. When. Wind and solar together. Exceed, $45. Per, megawatt hour you. Are always going, to be above the, compressed. Natural. Gas price, of today that's why it lies outside this, curve. So. That is about it, for this chart it's at a hundred percent availability, no. Price escalation, and you can choose your. Storage. In these two parameters if you choose. Pumped. Hydro you, have an entirely, different point, on this. Chart or re8 region, that, if you choose batteries, or if you choose compressed, air. Okay. Now. The least cost, of meaning that load. Depends. Upon. The. Effective. Availability. Factor, that. You have chosen to adopt if. You want to choose a hundred, percent reading, that load, then. You are all the way up at the highest cost point a. Hundred. Percent at the highest a. Hundred. Percent if. You're. The. Effect of availability. Factor, at a hundred percent is way up there at ninety nine percent for two, different kinds, of storage I just chose, lithium-ion. Future, or flow battery futures you, would then have this mix of. Storage. Parameters. But, your prices, you can see here is at. The level. Of. Very. High costs, here a. Hundred. Dollars. Per megawatt, hour ten cents per. Kilowatt. Hour zone right. Okay. But. If you, down to 95 percent, availability. That is you give up 5% of the time you will be choosing another, generating. Another. Generating. Technology. One that produces, co2 like, natural. Gas combined, cycle you. Drop that cost almost by 50% depending. Upon again, the storage technology. That you're using, so. You have, to say to yourself is it really true that. With this device this. System, this hybrid system, I want. To reach to a hundred percent will. I be satisfied with, 95 percent and. You see here the great benefit, that you get by, dropping, your availability, from a hundred to ninety five percent this. Is the way the curve shifts.
And. When you look at the calculation. With 95, percent, exactly. The same. Optimization. As before you. See that now lithium-ion. Of the future is exactly. The. Same or roughly the same as a combined, cycle natural, gas with. A $30, per metric ton carbon charge, if. You look at the flow of the future your, even in better, shape your. Equivalent to the cost of compressed. Natural gas. Generation. Without. Any carbon, charge so. You are in the ball game very. Much so in the ball game just by, giving up that 5%. It's. Really quite impressive and, it. May even be true. Well. What do I do if I'm 5%, short unload I have. To find a way to clawback of, a load and, the. First thing I can do is I, can go to the consumers, whether. They're commercial, or, individuals. And say, look don't. Use. Any. Electricity, for this brief period of time when this will happen and. Will. Pay you money for that. So. There's a demand response to. This sharp, availability. Drop that's. One way I can do it another. Thing I can do is if. I didn't live in the United States I could. Build more. Transmission. Lines. To, get, more choice, more. Places. Origins. Of generation, to, the place where I have a shortfall of course, that means that when you have to cover that expense but, you also have to deal with the regulatory, burdens, of getting. More transmission. Or the, third thing I could do is I could make. A deal, with. A utility. Or an electricity, service, provider some, distance away that. They will agree to have a kind of an insurance pool, that. They'll provide me or. The last thing I can do is I, could actually burn some. Combined-cycle. Natural, gas generation, and produce, co2. Even. There I urge. You to be calm because. Sally, is. Going. To figure out a way and it's going to propose a way to. Use carbon. Capture and sequestration for. That small sliver of generation. Could. Get rid of that my point is there are many different ways of, dealing. With the. Advantage. Of having, only 95, percent availability, rather, than a hundred percent of availa going, for a hundred percent. Is. Always, a mistake in the world of economics. There. Are other mistakes, about the world of method economics, but I'm not going to share them with you right now oh. This. Is the way you measure availability. The. Green curve here. Represents. For the hybrid, system that I look as my candidate, mix of, renewables. And storage is how. It goes along. With time how it goes up and down depending upon. How. The wind and the solar the time of day and everything else and, the. Blue. Line is the fixed. Load, and. If you look here in the corner you, see that there's sometimes, what. I have net. Generation. Plus. Storage delivery, to storage, over. The load in that. You just waste, you. Just throw that away but. There are other times. When. The load. Is. Above. The. Net generation and. Then. I'm not meeting load and. I have to curtail load, to. Do one of the ways that I mentioned. To you. Up. For. Those of you who don't believe, that, I, can do an optimization calculation. Of, this type, I. Have. Collaborators, who can. What. Are the results the main results, that I want, to share with you today is. The first what is what I sent you. Are going to find yourself very shortly in. A situation, where you have storage alternatives. When. Matched with existing. Solar. And wind generating. Systems. Will. Be able to meet load, extremely. Effectively. As. I said if. Dropping. To five percent of load. Cuts. The costs, by 50% of, meeting the load. There. What. Happens with respect to, different. Shifts if. Renewables. Become. Less of a contributor, as of course storage. Costs, go down. Optimally. It turns out the, amount of wind in. Solar. Is about the same at this point in air cut because. Of the capacity. Factors, of these. Two. Of. These two generating, renewable generating. Technologies, so. All of these can things can and if storage, gets much cheaper or if. You happen to use very, inexpensive. And available. Water. Pumped. Hydro hydro, storage, you. Could get a lot of different you have a lot of different, lot of dependence. On, that. Storage technology. And you have therefore a larger. Number of hours per day that. Are used of that technology. What. About uncertainty. We. Chose just one year and. We looked at that one year and said. This is the optimal, solution. But. In fact there. Is. Intermittency. And. Intermittency. Exists, for a fixed. Load. Factor. What. Happens is you could have 10, days of absence. Dark, Sun, at. One. Time or. You could have the 10 days, distributed. Over a longer, period of time if. The time when you have to make up for. Poor. Sunlight. Or poor, wind is, distributed. Across the, time period it's, easier, to have a storage system needed if. They get bunched together. Then. You have an intermittent sea which. Is going to be a very, very demanding.
Constraint. On the system, so. You have to ask yourself, what. Are the. Results, of uncertainty. In. This, system, that is if you consider uncertain. Demand, how. Are you going to deal with this problem I hope. That's on the next slide it. Isn't done yes it is here it is so. Uh what, you see is under this case I have to do a slightly, more complicated. Optimization. Program which. Takes into account the. Minimization. Of the, cost times, the demand quantity, at day, by day in the characteristic, year I'm looking at I have. To do a different, minimization. And how. Do I do that. You. Do that by one of two ways you I looked at one year did I say 2016. You'd. Have to look at 15, different years and if you look at 15 different years the intermittency, will. Begin to show itself up and average. Out between, the large number, of repetitive, time, periods, that you choose so. You have to have a long sequence of stable, data which. Are beginning to collect now in, all the utilities, at least in the United States certainly. In our economy, or. The alternative, the alternative way, to do it is, to try and describe. Those. Intermittent, times when the, Sun. Goes Away or the wind ceases to blow by. Building, a Markov transition. Matrix. Bility Theory probability. Description, of, the, specific, year you're looking at with, drift and transition, probabilities, what, if it's dark one day what is the likelihood it'll be dark the second day and, for. That you need to do the mark mark off description, and you also have to justify, it by making sure that it agrees with the data in. The. Year. That you're looking at if the, system were air ghatak, both. Those two results, would, have to be identical, as a way of dealing with uncertainty, but. The system is certainly not a ergodic. So. You've got to be careful, you've got to be careful about how you do this but you do have to look at uncertainty, you just can't go rushing. Into this without considering, the uncertainty. Now not, in the tank not in the sense of the. Capacity. Factor but, the uncertainty with, respect to intermittency, the sequence, of events that can be unset, unfavorable, to you for. More than one period and I'm. Told. That the. Worse that it gets in, California. Is ten days, ten. Days of really sharp sequential, that. May happen to you once a year. It's. Okay what do I want to do I. Have. A new proposal, about how to, encourage this technology. Pathway I, don't. Want to do it. By. Somebody. In. Boston. Or. In California. Saying. There's a mandatory amount, of, storage. That you have to put in your system today. Because. For two reasons, the first is there's no, apparent. Or even, catamite. Nobody. Knows. How. They connect, that requirement. Of how much storage has to be put in with. Respect to the actual, economics, of the system that is operating, and.
Secondly. When you do something like that. The. Private, sector has. Difficulty. In seeing through, that, -. How much the actual, costs, were. For. This additional, social benefit, of avoiding. Co2. Emissions. So. Is there a better way of doing it and I, claim yes there is a better way of doing it the better way of doing it is to allow. There to be a. Competition. Between. A set of energy, developers. Who. Will make a deal with, a utility, system, whether it's water several. Particulars. Rids is their. Question, to design, come. Back in and say we, aren't willing to. Undertake. A twenty year time. Period where. We will provide electricity. Either. By storage, our, choice of what we use or. By wind. And solar our choice of how much of each and we. Are willing to do this for so many cents per kilowatt hour. Throughout. That 20 year period there surely will be escalators, in there but their escalators, which are tied, to other, kinds, of indicators, that you would want to see in a fair system, and then. From that you. Say the government will. Assure. That the. Regulatory envelope. Is there to. Protect, that particular. Federally. Sponsored. Experiment. From being done and with, its results revealed. To. The, private, sector to encourage their. Use. Of it deployment. In other areas. Certain. Places of jump into mind as where. You might want to try a weird. Energy developer, might look an. Energy, Belapur might look at let's say Puerto Rico, or. An. Energy developer would certainly want to look at Hawaii, and. Indeed Hawaii, has recently. Announced. An an. Interesting. Regulatory. Pushed effort. Which, says in Hawaii we, are going to bid out, 250. Megawatts, of renewable energies. And storage. For. The lowest price and. From. That we will try and see how it works in the, Hawaiian. Framework. Which of course has a much higher cost. Of electricity at, the wholesale, level than, many other parts of country most other parts of the country I think, that the average cost, of generation, wholesale, generation, at Hawaii's about ten cents and the. Bid that came in for this was about six cents now, inside, that bidder a lot of existing subsidies, so, it doesn't really correspond. To the pristine. MIT. Designed. Experiment. That I would do but. It is a mark. Of, the. System, looking, now for. More transparent. Efforts to prove this technology. So. I close, with. A following, common. Wind. Plus. Solar, plus. Storage, is going. To be here and it's going to be here soon and the. Job now is to decide how. You are going to make progress, on, that how. You're going to get the private sector to. Deploy. That in the. Shortest. Period of time. Now. Of course where there's not only one country here of interest there. Are other countries as well and, the. Way that this kind of mix, both. Its scale, and its. Actual, mix of the different components this, hybrid, electric system would work, would. Be quite different, so. Indeed it might work very effectively in, those, countries where, availability. Is, not in a hundred percent. Availability. Is near the level of zero percent. So. That you're very much more on the more favorable part of, the. Curve of providing. Electricity, in. Many. Different parts of the world, my. Point here is a great, opportunity it's, a great achievement of, industry. In the United States government. Supporting, R&D but. It's something that deserves our attention today. Unlike, other forms, of electricity, generation, thank you very much thank you. From. The audience or let's start with the students. Sure. Sure so. I. Noticed, that you saved your simulation, in Texas, which is known for having. Availability. Of renewable energy especially, wind and solar that's very complimentary, in a way that, isn't replicated. In those parts. Of the country level, of the world so. I'm wondering if. You. Have, or have plans to, do. A similar analysis, for other locations. Which may have less favorable, renewables. If you have a sense for the magnitude. So. The answer is I chose Texas, is not a single, example because, I'm a man of the people I. I'm. Not a fancy person, from Massachusetts. Or, yeah. So uh what, the answer is in fact, similar. Calculations, have been done for two other states. What. Is Illinois and the. Other I'm sorry I know it Iowa, and the, other is in fact Massachusetts. Needless. To say. Iowa. Beats, the system in terms, of least cost of meeting load the fix, level of law and, Massachusetts. Does worse but. The answer is of course you. Should and a careful, person would, do a thorough job I'm, not. Either careful, or thorough but, the, numbers, will come out very. Very good they're, not that far more. So. Two more student questions that I want to come back here because we have a.
Presentation. But I'm surprised by your. You're. Saying that you're not for any. Type of regulation you're for a federally, sponsored demonstration. Project to, me that seems like a pretty weak. Proposal. Given where we're at I mean like, you said there's been states there's been other projects, around the world you're, showing how it can work, that's, one. More. Project, to show how it works to, my mind doesn't, change the trajectory were, on so, I would ask you is that really, all you're, proposing is this well, first of all. What. I said fell I really was speaking to federal protection, from intervening, regulation. Not, using, dollars but. I want to say to you better. Times will come in Washington, DC than currently are present and. Secondly, I, will, say this what I meant about the states is, the. Regulatory, mandate. What I don't think is proper about the California, systems not that they're putting money into something but. That the way they're doing it is by saying you, utilities. Have to buy I think it's 1.8, gigawatts. Of, storage. In. A specified. Period of time and, a private investor can't learn anything from that so it's not so much that it's a state, it's. The use. Of a regulatory, mandate, of introducing. Storage. Without any reference. To an actual. Load. Completion. Activity. Sure. Please I still. Keep, it so if you do, you're better you're a prefer, experiment. Where this, really does show, the. Financial results or. Better shows better bet okay to me to my mind that still doesn't change. You. Know there's so much. Inertia. And, special. Interest that I don't, I don't see that changing things. Well. Things do change I mean this is not now you're not arguing about the state, relations federal you just say things are slow everywhere no. I'm saying that. Well. I'm, just, surprised that that's your. Look. Sorry I'm sorry I I don't, be to be defensive no what would you propose. It's. Probably plans scary. But a lot of people talk about the carbon tax they say that's the cleanest. Oh. Help. Me it, out. In. Fact I for, a carbon. Tax that is totally. Recycled. To. The consumer. Help. Me in this. Would, just. Help, I mean that would not this is not a competitor, that, that's, much more important, than this mild. Effect. On improving, electricity. Utility, electricity. Generation. Emissions. But. Remember carbon. Tax in. Bangladesh. Is less likely, than here it's low likely as it is here now. Let's. Do these two here I live John and John.
Price. Discovery, for. How much this would cost of. Compliance, or in storage and Link systems how. Does the price. Discovery, in that context. Differ, substantially from the Isis cover region already from. Utilities, going out and procuring antigenic win contracts, solar, contracts, and storm contracts, independently. Well. Because many of those purchases. Are. Caused. By regulatory. Mandates, you know. Renewable. Energy standards, they. Are also, have. Dispatch. Rules that. Are based on the. Regulatory. Preferences. For wind over. Let's say nuclear. Because. Of the results. Of, subsidies. On, generation. Of wind so. It's, only a question that it is it takes it out hopefully, in, a, meaningful. Degree, from. Regular. To regulatory. And subsidy, masking. Of the underlying, economics. Ok. Straight back. I think. So much so in. Your proposal, you were saying. That I'd like. A 20 year demonstration. For this would be the, way to go but to, stop. Warming, up. 1.5. Degrees we need to. Reduce our carbon in much. On. A much shorter time scale than 20 years so do you have any ideas, for how you might expedite, something, like this so that don't take such a long time to demonstrate, we. Have to beat the smaller group with, the answer as I do you, won't like them but I do I think. That it's an urgent, question for, all universities. To be talking about saying. Look we're not making progress. Paris. Is, not progress, at. The level you need so. We have to be thinking about, changing. Law global. Attitude. Towards. Climate. Policy. No. More wide, and breathe, of meetings. Every, year at the conference of the parties for, every other year we have, to really get serious about adopting, different, approaches, that is not the topic of this, discussion but I don't, claim that this May, doesn't hit, anything with the third of fourth decimal place, on. A trajectory. Which. Is absolutely. Catastrophic. Jehu. I think you were first, in the ball yes. Sir. First. Of all the problem that is posed to in. The real world is you, have a community, which depends, upon electricity. In. That demand. Rises. And falls just, the other demand. Side of the load side and. The calculation, here is I don't. Push. Back on those shape of that load curve I take. It as being fixed, and then that's why I talked about uncertainty in it but. The answer is this is the least cost, way of, beating. It with, those three, ingredients. And I've, compared, it to the closest, I know. Competitor. For that for meeting the load 95. Or 100 percent of the time which, is combined-cycle. Natural, gas these are at the numbers, and. I, mean that I'm that. I will. I. Don't. Know. I. I, have not taken that car I have had to uh you're right I have acted but let me say a word about people, about, I'm. Probably the only person in this one who. Was lived at a time and was, in. The Department of Energy at a time when we were building six nuclear plants a year, by. For, competitive. Reactor. Designers, and I. Want to tell you there is nobody who, is more. Pro-nuclear. Than I am however. When. We look in detail a, rope. And I others. At. The prospects. For nuclear, they. Are so, serious, including. At MIT. It. Was. That. You. Know it is a regrettably. It's a free university, I control. But. There's something else that I think they're saying it's only when you get down to 95, percent availability. That nuclear is cheaper, nuclear. It's not even in the game until you get there but, that's they're correct about that calculation, they don't look at storage very close. So. That we can service the air conditioning, load. Yes. Sir okay, so the, fact that you've ignored, other.
Sources, That are clean and. Have. Ignored, the pollution, of those sources that are committed, it's. I, think. You're. Gonna get. Competitive concerns. Thank. You for your presentation, I want to thank you especially for including, the carbon tax and your house as the secretary, Shultz and others district goes and, everybody. Said learning I, think there's another issue here about our knee which is really important not so much for projects and Richard drove over the public retirees, and. The, $30, a ton I'm, sure. So. I'm curious whether you've done any kind of sensitivity, analysis. On, that question. No. I just took 30 because it's do you think it's worth doing because that like their interest there's, a lot of what have done me. Specific. Question I have us if you were to do that kind of sensitivity analysis. Way to tell us what the carbon tax has to be so. That we can get to price parity in, today. Or any dirty well. I would tell you that I would, favor any carbon, tax that could pass that's. My first point but. My second, point is I think the $30, number. Is. Taken. Out of one, of the central. Possibilities. Of the. White. House run. Social. Cost of carbon. Analysis. So it's consistent with that but. I don't. Believe that that's you know high-energy physics, that's just economists. Yeah so uh but. I tell you I have, we have certainly not done anything here we just chose that number it's representative. And. Physicists, I agree with you on both counts. Operational. Design. Phases, around. The world yes over, there you know they have a property. Hybrid. Plan already, yes. In other words - the battery packs yes. So can't you do something simpler, and Wall Street or the huge amounts, of, data. Available already on yes, I have, to claw back to, their federal subsidies, though yeah so, why can't we do that I would, have to call back their federal subsidy. Their. Whole project. Basis, is based on when, is it 1.3 cents per kilowatt-hour now and. More when they were built but, III, wouldn't, mind cleverer. Ways of, running an experiment, I just want to see somebody, say, yes a developer. Say. Yes I'm willing to try and put together a project that. In this particular locale. Makes. Sense with a combination of wind solar, and storage. You, could choose the kind of storage you think is best. So. John Bash later I want to go in the back of your. Questions, yes, I have a question, about federal. Versus, state and, this comes from experience. Forty years ago in Bell Labs where we of course did all kinds of analysis of busy busy. Hours with mother's day although, some and that local PUC s looks. At the service, level, metrics like, raising beat us beat on us including, to well enough so my question, is is, let's. Talk about the balance between doing, and federally vs., aligning. With the PUC to the states. It. Seems in many cases, getting it to happen quicker, with the binding.
PUC. That are, really. Interest as we're seeing if you work with them. I'm. A federal man. Okay. Ma'am. I. Can't. Hear you. Is. That in your proposal that, you mentioned, the Hawaiian Electric's Rico is I. Done that you, like reduce the energy and. I'm. Thinking, after the disaster. And. I. Don't. Know the circumstances in, Japan today I just don't I would. Guess that they would have to rely a lot on offshore, wind which will change the costs, quite considerably, but. This is not a proposal, that, is designed for California. Or any other, particular, place if, it's going to work here, it'll work in other places as well yeah. We do have an executive from TEPCO, and Japan, coming here at the end of the quarter to talk so you should, come and ask that question if you're not here I'll ask it for you, maybe. One or two more. Any. Other questions, sir. Smaller. Well. What. Would you think. To. Get more people, to look, into this at the private end at having. A tariff, on electricity. Which is centuries separate out we can purchase. On. Basis. At spot, rather than saying a tariff. That is noon. I. Think, that I'm. Here again work you're getting a bit outside my way but, my view is that the. Intermediary. Between, the, consumer, and the. Like, utility. Company which wants to set a set tap on the number of kilowatt hours you used is, vanishing. And, you're coming to a position where you're going to have households. And certainly industrial, and commercial, operations. Negotiating. On a minute-by-minute, basis. Maybe through an intermediary, with what price they're willing to bid for how much electricity so. I think the world is going that way and. That's. What I would love to be able to do but I'm fixed, to terrorists, with sure it's. The state. Enough. To say much to my surprise a room that's right and John really is a national, treasure as you've just seen so let's think.