Triple Episode: Business Hides Sneaky Business | Couples Court
This is Couples Court with the Cutlers. KEITH: This is the case of Sanchez-Brown versus Brown. You all have been married for five years, and Ms. Sanchez-Brown, you've got some concerns
that your husband is cheating? You've asked this court to do a full investigation. Hmm-mmm. Tell us why you're here.
I'm here today because I believe that my husband is cheating. He had been what do you say... I've been finding things around the house. And he's cheated in the past.
So, it's like, "If you're gonna keep on doing it, just leave me alone." So, the fact that he's cheated in the past, you know what this feels like. Yes, I do. And you gut's telling you, he's back to the same old thing? Hmm-mmm.
What does that gut feeling feel like? (EXHALES) CROWD: Aww. Crystal, I love, man, for everything you gave me. (CRYING) It's breaking me down. But still. It's tearing me apart for you to accuse me of all these things.
You're doing the same things that you used to do. When you see your wife, with tears in her eyes, with the thought of you cheating, how does that make you feel when you see that? It makes me wanna cry right now, when she cry, it breaks me down, I don't want to put my wife and no more than what we've already been through. I've made mistakes in the past. I cleaned myself up as a man. And I'm trying to be a perfect husband, a good father to her, and the kids and I just want to prove to her that leave my past in the past, and I want to move forward, with our life, with our marriage.
We got a lot at stake. Our household, our six children. I want the romance back, I want our love back. I want the laughter. I want the good times back. And I'm just here, to prove my faith to her. That I love her. Okay, you want to go back to the good times, what did that look like? Cause it makes you happy just talking about it.
The good times, we just, sit up all night, just laughing, talking, enjoying each others company. DANA: Hmm mmm. I can't go a day without seeing her. I can't, um...
even if I'm at work, I'm the one texting or calling her, checking up on her, cause, you know, she's on my mind all day, that's my wife, she's beautiful, I love her. KEITH: All right, so, Ms. Sanchez-Brown, you said he's cheated in the past, but you'all got back together. Yeah.
What made you take him back? Uh, I love this man with all my heart. We have a family together. We're trying to raise everything. So what is it about him that you love? (EXHALES) Like on Valentine's Day, what I woke up to was a big bouquet of balloons, some big flowers, a card, and like, a whole thing of chocolate.
I was blown away. That was the joy for me. Just putting a smile on my wife's face, man. And... KEITH: I, I get it because, you know, there have been many Valentine's Days where I don't know what I'm going to do, I don't know how I'm gong to scrape together whatever I can scrape together, but I've got to get this woman something.
So I know how you feel cause you want to put that smile on their face. I, I get that. You're not smiling right now? No. Because you think something's going on? Yes.
Um, there was a situation where we were moving and we moved everything up the house, there's trash all over the floor, I... start picking up, sweeping up the stuff, and I see, like a earring, and a lip balm and so I pick it up, I'm like, "Well, this is not mine, "so where did it come from?" So I called Shawn in. "What is this?" The earring. BOTH JUDGES: Oh, okay. I don't wear earrings like that, at all. He tells me it's my two-year-old daughter's.
(CROWD LAUGHING) Does it look like my to-year-old daughter can wear this? It's about the size of a three-year-old's hand. Wait, Crystal. Then on top of that, he tells me it's my sister's now. My sister doesn't even have her ears pierced.
Crystal. So I'm wondering where did it come from? Okay. Where did the earring come from? Your Honor, I'm a barber.
So I have a lot of clients in and out of the house. And I tried to explain it to her, we got people in and out of the house. Her family as well as my family. But why would it be ducked in the couch? We got six kids. The kids are in her jewelry box,
every day, all day long. DANA: Okay. But you're a barber, right? Yes.
Most guys don't wear hoop earrings. I got clients that, have females that come and bring their younger sons to the house. DANA: Mr. Brown, let me ask you something. Yes. You're gonna expect me, now he might believe it. Do you believe this? Well, I mean, I've been to the barber's shop.
I know women bring their sons to get their hair cut. All right. That, that happens. I understand that, but he's trying to get me, I'm just gonna talk about me then, you're trying to get me to believe that somebody came through with their son and dropped their earring? It is possible. And then on the flip side, I have six kids so, if I got clients over the kids is interacting with my clients' kids...
Okay, don't try to explain this. Did you tell your wife that it could be your two-year-old's earring? Yes, I did. Looking at that earring, you thought your two-year old might wear that earring? Um...
At the time, yeah... DANA: Mr. Ron, could you hand me that earring? This earring! Here you go.
DANA: This is almost a bracelet for a two-year-old. RON: Bracelet. Necklace. Okay. Okay, Cutler. This man told his wife, that his two-year-old wore this. He said it was possible.
SHAWN: It's possible. I didn't say that to her. I said it's possible. KEITH: It's possible. SHAWN: It's possible.
It's possible that it belongs to his two-year-old. Uh-huh. What was the other story you had? My clients, um... I have clients in and out the house, KEITH: Female clients? Um... Male clients, female, majority is female clients because...
CRYSTAL: With kids. with kids. And you also said it could be your sister-in-law's earring, right? My wife has her family over all the time. She has sisters, she had her mother.
Sometimes they're in and out the house, sometimes she might not see the diff... you know her family come over to the house. I'm gonna cut to the chase. Does this earring and the lip balm, right? Hmm-mm. Does that belong to a woman you were sleeping with? No.
A woman you had relations with? No. A woman that you were involved with in any way, romantically? No, Ma'am. You don't know where this earring came from? I don't know where that earring came from. You're just coming up with just suggestions. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this and clear my name and be a faithful man to my wife. Hand this back to the two-year-old.
She can wear that as a bracelet. (CROWD CLAPPING) do have any other reason to believe that he's cheating? Uh, that's not the only thing I found in the house. DANA: Oh! KEITH: All right, what else did you find? I have found condoms.
Condoms. DANA: Is that the exhibit you brought? Yes, I have. Can you step to the monitor and explain your exhibit? (MURMURING) I look under the sink. All right, the sink in the kitchen, the bathroom? The sink in the kitchen. It's two wine cases that we have. I'm like, "Okay, let me just throw them out."
I pick it up. I feel something in it. I'm like, "Okay, what is this?" I open it up. It's a whole bunch of condoms. Is that where you keep your condoms? We don't use condoms. CROWD: Woo. (LAUGHING) All right, well that would explain why that was a surprise find.
I call him in. "What is this doing here?" He's like, "Well, "we have the six kids, we need to start protecting ourselves to prevent another child. So I'm like, "Okay, cool." So about two weeks, past. It's about well, I can say, 12 condoms, were used, when... In two weeks? In two weeks.
Wow. It sounds like we do something, well, we did. Go high, Mr. Cutler! (ALL LAUGHING) Wait, wait, wait.
Wait a minute, one more time, Mr. Cutler, six times a week. DANA: Y'all got efforts. Wait a minute, y'all... Six times a week! With six kids! They go six times with six kids! You go! You go! All right, more power to you. Okay, back to the story.
(ALL LAUGHING) It's supposed to be... It's supposed to be 28 condoms left. DANA: Right.
When I went to go check that box, there wasn't 28 left. DANA: How many were left? There as only ten condoms in there. CROWD: Oooh. So I'm wondering, where the hell the other 18 went. So this actually is the case of the missing condoms. SHAWN: Your Honor.
DANA: All right, help me. I have some male friends that come over from time to time, and they go through my stuff. and I tell my wife that. I ain't got no friends like that. It's a condom dispensary.
Well, just because they're missing, that doesn't mean I'm cheating on her. You, why don't you come back to the podium. You get over 18 condoms in two weeks? Sir, if my male friends come over KEITH: That's more than one a day. they go for my stuff and they might take 'em for them. But that, as soon as she she that What are they taking, handfuls? that doesn't mean I'm cheating. It could have been the kids playing with them, throwing them away. The kids is in
the kids get into everything, sir. How did the kids get into in? So you're two year old who's wearing these big hoop earrings, is also playing with condoms? Yes, Your Honor. Ms. Sanchez-Brown, have you found anything else to make you think he's cheating? Yes.
Once again, KEITH: What have you found? some food receipts. DANA: Okay. For two. And what does the receipt say? The receipt had, for two, it had drinks and eatery. This is like at 2:00 a.m., and he's supposed to have been working.
Could he have been on a meal break? Shawn calls me on his meal breaks. So, he was like, It's him just stepping out for like, not even a ten minute break and then he has to go back to work. So he doesn't get a long break to go somewhere else No. to have a meal? No. KEITH: At two in the morning.
No. And they provide him with that anyway. So you think he was out with another woman? I believe so. SHAWN: Your Honor. Yes. I work at a night club.
She found the receipts in my pocket and I said, "Yeah, that's because "after I was finished with my job, "my co-workers, employees invited me out, women and men, to have a good time. I had meals with them. But it was as, something we do at the job. We drink together...
All right why was it just two people on the receipt. SANCHEZ: Hmm-mm. Hmm, that particular night, one of my co-workers, we always do this, one night, one person buys the food, the other night, the other person buys the drinks. Was this co-worker female? Female and a male, yes.
No, there are only two of you'll on the receipt. You and the other co-worker. Was the other co-worker a male or female? A female. KEITH: All right. That's my supervisor.
Okay, so, to get it straight, you were at a restaurant at two in the morning... ...with my supervisor and the rest of my co-workers, and it's nothing else. It's simple job related. All right. All right, you're telling this court, that you have not had any sexual contact with with anyone else, since you'll got back from the earlier incident in January of 2016? Yes, sir.
KEITH: To get to the bottom of this, the court has enlisted the services of licensed private investigator and certified polygraph examiner, Michael Williams. Ron, would you please escort Mr. Williams into the courtroom? RON: Yes, Your Honor. RON: Mr. Williams, how are you, sir? MICHAEL: I'm okay.
KEITH: Mr. Williams, how are you today? Just great. How are you, Your Honor? Good. Good to see you. Now, Mr. Williams, what did you do
to investigate in this case? In this case, we placed the litigant in a room with a hidden camera, with an attractive woman, who was posing as a litigant. She began to flirt with him. The goal was to see if Mr. Brown would do anything inappropriate, and try to cheat with her. DANA: Did Mr. Brown do anything interesting? Oh, yes, he did.
All right, share that with us. Approximately 15 minutes after the initial meeting, the conversation turned personal. Take a look. SHAWN: Take my number down. around seven-seven thirty. (WOMAN SPEAKING) (SHAWN SPEAKING) (WOMAN SPEAKING) (SHAWN SPEAKING) DANA: All right.
Ms. Sanchez-Brown, you look completely stressed out. I am. DANA: What's going through your mind? (SCREAMING) How dare you? How dare you! How dare after everything I've done for you, Shawn, really! Really! I have had your back from the lowest to the highest, Shawn.
How dare you! I can't even look at you right now. I can't! Crystal, I didn't do nothing. You got her number down. You took her number. DANA: Mr. Williams,
did he do anything? Eventually my associate asked Mr. Brown to go out. Take a look at this. WOMAN: Well, if you decide to go out tonight, you should definitely let me know. All right. (WOMAN SPEAKING) (SHAWN SPEAKING) (WOMAN SPEAKING) (SHAWN SPEAKING) WOMAN: Yeah. (SHAWN SPEAKING) (WOMAN SPEAKING) (SHAWN SPEAKING) Was that the number I found? Crystal...
Was that the number I found? No. No. Then what was that number? That you did not want me to call yesterday. That was a client from back home. All right, I don't believe that. That might be her number. That ain't her number. All right.
But Ms. Sanchez-Brown, he did tell her he was married when she asked him to go out. Some women do not care. SHAWN: I did not say nothing to that woman. DANA: I understand that...
When I was sitting in there, she... I stayed to myself she kept making conversations with me, I tried to be a people person, okay. "I got a wife." Maybe, she can give us something to do together.
Cause if a man was talking to me, I'll be like, "No, I'm not going to have this conversation with you." SHAWN: I told her, the woman I'm married. No, I wouldn't even talk. I would turn around
and like, looking at my phone. I'm not going to that to you, I'm not. I wasn't doing nothing.
I'm not. I wasn't saying anything. I wouldn't have paid no due attention. Crystal, I wasn't saying...
Okay, how many questions he's asking me. I'm not going to pay no attention. we also had Mr. Brown to undergo
a polygraphic examination. And we have those results. DANA: Mr. Brown was asked, "Did you use the condoms your wife found in your house "to have sex with women other than your wife?" What was his response? Your Honor, he said, "No." What did the lie detector determine? Your Honor, there was a significant physiological response to this question indicating deception.
KEITH: Mr. Brown? Why would you do that? Why? You put me out the house plenty of times and... That doesn't make you cheat.
I don't make you cheat. Where are you gonna go from here? I don't know. Mr. Brown? Where are you gonna go from here? I'll try my best to save my marriage.
And I wish you can just get to the point where we can just get through these things and move on with our life, not just for me, but for the kids. You all have been married for five years, and you have brought your spouse to court because you believe he's cheating, is that correct, Ms. Gangaram? Yes, Your Honor. And if he is cheating your marriage is done. Yes, Your Honor.
Would you tell the court about the warning signs you've seen regarding Mr. Gangaram and cheating. Okay. Actually, Your Honor, I don't suspect he's cheating, I know he's cheating... JUDGE DANA: Oh! Because he haven't touched me in six months. AUDIENCE: Whoa! Now, you're a female and you should know where I'm coming from.
Well, I'm married and I know where you're coming from too. (CHUCKLES) DENISE: Yes. He's not touched me in six months, you know, I'm young and I'm horny and I like to have sex. Like, when we first got together... (AUDIENCE CLAPPING) ...it was, like, sex every day. (CHUCKLES) BERNIE: But, we're married, we do have sex once, twice a month and it's great. (AUDIENCE LAUGH) Nah.
JUDGE KEITH: Mr. Gangaram, what are you here to show? I'm here to show that I'm not cheating. I like to watch television, what does that have to do with sex? DENISE: Television... JUDGE KEITH: So you agree that there is a decrease in activity... Yeah, there is.
But you're saying you're not cheating. BERNIE: No, I'm not cheating. And you're saying it's 'cause you're married? BERNIE: Yeah.
That's why you're not having sex as regular. Yeah. Yes, Your Honor. Oh, you're making married people all over the world feel uncomfortable 'cause that is not what folks think.
Exactly. JUDGE KEITH: You... Usually it is, "No she's exaggerating. It's not that long. He's like... He's like, yeah.
He's like, "Yeah, it is. Yeah. "Why? We're married." JUDGE DANA: And I'm good with it. DENISE: Like it's okay. Like that's the worst advertisement for marriage ever.
Yeah, you know, I like watching TV. That's a problem. It is a problem. But you say you're not cheating. I'm just building up energy, Your Honor. No. No, no, no, no. Your Honor...
(AUDIENCE GASPS) I have called me a divorce lawyer because it's a difference building up energy and satisfying your wife. She said she got him on speed dial. Yeah. And so the results of this investigation mean everything as related you marriage.
Yes. JUDGE DANA: Do you understand that, Mr. Gangaram? Yes I understand that, Your Honor. As a judge, Mr. Gangaram, I look at signs... BERNIE: Okay.
...and I watch the people who are in front of me. We've only been talking for a few minutes... Look at him, nervous. ...and you sweating, and that's a sign of guilt. DENISE: Yeah, nervous. (LAUGHS)
I mean, you just... I mean it's not just like I'm a little warm, you are sweating profusely. Literally sweating. Before we got in here, nervous. JUDGE DANA: And that's a sign of guilt. Thank you. Thank you, Your Honor.
(AUDIENCE CLAPPING) You made a statement earlier. You said in the beginning it wasn't like that. No, in the beginning it was every day, two, three times a day. Like, it was like we was high school kids. JUDGE KEITH: Well, where did you all meet? We met... He came out to my apartment one day. He came to fix my cable, and it was like... Immediately attraction, like...
And he fixed the cable and later on that night he came back. Oh, man, this is a cable guy story, for real. The cable guy came by to fix the cable... Well, you know, I seduced him. I did seduce him because I was standing outside, bare feeted, my hair was sticking up on my head, I had on some little shorts, and he was like, "You the girl that I'm supposed to fix your cable?" And I was, like, "Yes, come on in." And as soon he hit that door, I was like, "Oh, me and my kids are hungry. Could you help us out?"
JUDGE KEITH: Oh, man... Went into his wallet. Gave me money for us for some food, and I was like, "Yes, yes." You know, happy. Later on that night I get a bang at the door, and I looked out the window, I said, "This man back at this door.
"What is he up to?" But as soon as he hit the door, the way he looked and smelled, I just immediately started ripping his clothes off, and we... (AUDIENCE LAUGH) ...just immediately starting having sex. We were just doing it. JUDGE KEITH: All right... Bow chika bow wow. Yeah.
(LAUGHS) And after that we got us a place together, and we lived together. We didn't separate from the day I met him, and I married him. JUDGE DANA: But, you know what, I'm listening to you tell this story, and its with this heart and this feeling and this depth.
How do we go from what you're describing to him standing in front of me and you accusing him of cheating? Because one day I came home, I had been out all day running errands, the house were quiet, and the bathroom door were closed, and all I heard was... (IMITATING MOANING) And I was like... So I didn't tap on the door, I just backed away from the door, and then I went around the corner 'cause the way to the bathroom is around in the house, and then I peeked in around, he come out the restroom with a big...
(AUDIENCE GASPS) I'm like, what is... What was you doing in there? We have a window in our bathroom, so I don't know. Did the woman go out the bathroom, was you FaceTiming somebody, but you was doing something because I heard a female voice. I know what I heard. (IMITATING MOANING) And I know it was something.
Mr. Gangaram, did you hear the... (IMITATING MOANING) That she described. Yeah, it was a movie that I was watching on my phone. JUDGE DANA: Wait a minute. Do that again, Mr. Cutler.
I can't do the way she did it. She heard it first-hand. I'm just hearing it second-hand. Uh-huh, that's your story? Yeah, so I can't do it the way she does. That's the story you gonna go with? That's what I'm sticking with. (BOTH LAUGH) JUDGE KEITH: Okay, so, was there another woman involved with this? No. She thinks there was someone inside the... In the bathroom, but the window's too small to go out.
I was just watching a movie, Your Honor. No other person involved? No other person involved. DENISE: Your Honor, this girl, like... Okay, another incident. I was going through his phone... Oh, boy.
DENISE: And him... And I seen where he say, "What you look like?" He was sexting some woman, and I think he was trying to describe how I look, how he wanted her to look. He was like, I need you to be 24, I need you to be young, black, skinny, which I'm not skinny, you could tell that, I'm not skinny at all.
Wait a minute, hold up. You're going through his phone... Yeah, and I found...
...and you found text messages between him and some young woman... DENISE: I gave it to the court already. You submitted that to the court, right? All right, here it is. It says...
"What do you look like?" JUDGE DANA: "I'm 24, young, small waist "cute in the face, and big... JUDGE KEITH: T's... So, he responds, "Sounds nice." "If you wanna come by here, here's the address." DENISE: And then disappears for three hours from home.
I'm like, "Babe, really? Like really?" Look, I just went for a drive. That's it. Just to clear my head. DENISE: This is lying.
That's it. And the address was in there? DENISE: Yes. JUDGE DANA: And you went to that address? I went to the address, he wasn't there. JUDGE KEITH: Mr. Gangaram, I mean, who was...
Yes, Your Honor. Who was the woman who was 24, young, small waist, cute in the face, and with big T's? I don't know. I don't know what that is, Your Honor. JUDGE DANA: Did you contact this woman? BERNIE: No, I did not, Your Honor. Did you have sex with this woman? BERNIE: No, I did not, Your Honor.
Did you go and see her big T's? No, I did not, Your Honor. JUDGE KEITH: You see how this looks, right? I mean, just put yourself... BERNIE: I know how it looks.
It looks real messed up, guilty. JUDGE DANA: And all the sweating, that doesn't help. DENISE: He's nervous. Swear I've never seen him sweat like this before.
I'm just hot, that's it. All right, Ms. Gangaram, have you ever caught him with a woman? No, but I have caught him in a c... I mean, I heard a conversation in a car with one...
This is another incident. He thought he had hung up on me, but I was still on the phone. I think I stayed on the phone at least 30 to 40 minutes before he realized that the phone was on. I heard a woman saying turn left, turn right. Go left, go right.
Okay, wait a minute. So you have gotten off the phone, but he doesn't know he has not hung up the phone? DENISE: Yes. JUDGE DANA: So you can hear a woman in the background giving directions? Yes. So was it GPS, the app that you heard or was it a woman? DENISE: No. No, no, it was a woman in the car with him. He asked her to see her private parts. (AUDIENCE GASPS) Oh! Well, that's not GPS.
Ans she was like... She was like, (DEEP VOICE) I'm gonna show it to you, just turn right. (NORMAL) That's how she talk. I don't know if it was an old woman, but this is how the woman sound. (DEEP VOICE) I'm gonna show it to you, just turn right. (NORMAL) That's how she sound.
(DEEP VOICE) No go up this way, go down this way. He like, "Just let me see it. Let me see it." JUDGE DANA: Oh, really? Yeah, really. He's like... So clearly, that wasn't a GPS unless you got grumpy woman voice. DENISE: No. And he's, he's asking to see her private parts? Yes, that's when I realized he don't know I'm still on his phone.
And this woman's like, I'm gonna let you see it, just turn right? This is how she sound, (DEEP VOICE) "Turn left, turn right," and I was like... And I asked him, I said, "Who was in the car with you?" He said that's... Who was in the car with you? He denied that. He said some woman was standing on the corner, she asked for a ride. Her name were... What's her name were? I don't know her name.
So you can't... Wait a minute. I, I'm dying to hear the explanation for this one. This is lying.
That's it. A person needed a ride, I gave them a ride, and asked me... JUDGE DANA: A person you don't know? A person I don't know. Do you understand how ludicrous that sounds? DENISE: Yeah. That you are in a major metropolitan city, you pick up a stranger on a corner, and then at some point...
(DEEP VOICE) That has a voice like this. Yeah. (DEEP VOICE) Turn left. I don't know if it was a man or a woman. Turn left, turn right. (DEEP VOICE) Like this. Turn left.
You like that, huh? (LAUGHS) Yeah, I like that. ...but it come from the inside. That's how her voice sound. And than, you know, not talking about the weather, not talking about the sports team, not talking about anything else, "Show me your privates"? That's where you go with this stranger? (DEEP VOICE) Okay.
(DEEP VOICE) Turn right, I'll show 'em to you. (LAUGHS) (DEEP VOICE) Okay, turn right. Go up the little street. JUDGE DANA: Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? I know it sounds ridiculous, but... That's how you living? That's how I... I just wanted her to get off the phone.
She kept blowing me up all night long, so I asked the person to do that for me. Did you see it? After it was all set and done the person got out of my car. Did you see it? See what? No, I didn't see anything. That's what he's saying. Now, weren't you concerned asking a woman that you don't know, allegedly, "Let me see your privates"? Did you think she might hit you, slap you, stab you? I mean, I'd be scared to ask somebody something like that. I wasn't thinking about none of that, Your Honor.
JUDGE DANA: Clearly. I don't know that you were thinking about anything when you did that. Or she might've looked at you and said, (DEEP VOICE) "I'm gonna knock you out." (ALL LAUGH) You know, that's...
JUDGE DANA: Oh, you got your version of it too. Okay. JUDGE KEITH. Yeah. Yeah, he doing something. He's cheating. It sounds like to me if you want to get him in bed, you go... (DEEP VOICE) Come here. And he might... (ALL LAUGH) He might be all over you.
(DEEP VOICE) Come here, I'll show it to you. (LAUGHS) JUDGE: Yeah, I think that, that I got the cure. Just go down with, (DEEP VOICE) Yeah... (CHUCKLES) DENISE: (DEEP VOICE) Yeah, come on, let me get in the car with you. All right. Well, Mr. Cutler, I think we have more than enough evidence.
And... It's a doozy. JUDGE KEITH: Yeah. She overhears you in your car on the phone after you think you've hung up, but you haven't and there's a woman's voice on there...
(DEEP VOICE) Yeah. (LAUGHS) ...who's giving you more than just directions... (LAUGHING) That's like... (DEEP VOICE) Turn right. Yeah. Turn left. JUDGE DANA Wanna see it? JUDGE KEITH: Let me see your privates. (ALL LAUGH) And then the big one, Cutler, no pun intended, is that they have not had sex in six months.
All of this... That's the point. All of this is the evidence we've had. And you see how that looks, right? Yeah, I mean, from a standpoint, yeah, it looks guilty, but I'm not guilty. JUDGE KEITH: You still deny that you... I still deny it all.
Because of these questions regarding Mr. Gangaram's activities on his phone and tablet the court would like to call Digital Forensic Consultant Patrick Siewert who has done a full investigation to determine is he cheating? Ron, please escort him in. Thank you. (INDISTINCT CONVERSATION) How are you, Mr. Siewert? Doing well. How are you, Your Honors? Good to see you.
I'm doing great. Good to see you. I'm great. We're great. So could you share for the courtroom record your credentials.
Yeah, I have about 10 years experience conducting high-tech criminal investigations including digital forensic analysis. Uh, graduate of several Digital Forensic courses through the National Computer Forensics Institute and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, and a court certified expert witness in digital forensics. JUDGE DANA: All right. Did you uncover anything suspicious or of note in Mr. Gangaram's phone?
I did find several pictures of a naked woman that were sent to Mr. Gangaram. Uh, looks like in a bathroom in several stages of undress. Told you, he lied... JUDGE KEITH: All right, you have those with you? I do.
Okay. Now the bathroom moment. He like them bathroom extras, Your Honor.
Take me in a bathroom, I wish he would. JUDGE KEITH: All right... (AUDIENCE CHUCKLE) (EXCLAIMS) There are two pictures of... It appears to be the same woman.
One is a picture of her from her back. She's nude. There's a second one where she's dropping it like it's hot. JUDGE DANA: And she's got on tall heels.
JUDGE KEITH: But nothing else. JUDGE DANA: That's all she got. Very distinct pictures of her derriere. Yes.
Are you familiar with these pictures? Yes, I downloaded it, Your Honor. So who was this woman? BERNIE: I don't know who that woman is, Your Honor. You're still sticking to it. I'm still sticking to it.
It's him. That's him. I'm still sticking to it. JUDGE DANA: Well... In order to further investigate this matter at this time the court would like to call licensed private investigator and polygraph examiner Kendall Shull. Ron, would you please escort him into the court room? (AUDIENCE CLAPS) Let's see him leading to the table. Mr. Shull, how are you?
Good, Your Honor. How are you? JUDGE DANA: I'm great. You asked Mr. Gangaram some questions, is that correct? SHULL: I did, Your Honor. JUDGE DANA: All right. You asked him, "Did you have physical, sexual contact "with the woman Ms. Gangaram overheard giving you directions
"and you asked to see her private parts?" What was his response? His response was no. What did the lie detector determine? The lie detector determined he was being... Truthful. See that. (AUDIENCE CLAPPING) All that. It was all a set-up, Your Honor. It ain't no set-up. I still ain't had no sex.
It was, It was still a set-up. DENISE: If I'm not getting it, who getting it? All right, we better... We better find out. We're about to find out. Since July 2014, have you had physical, sexual contact with anyone other than Ms. Gangaram that she doesn't know about? What was his response to that question? He said no, Your Honor. JUDGE KEITH: What did the lie detector determine? SHULL: The lie detector determined he was being... Deceptive.
Oh, my God! Baby, for real? AUDIENCE: Oh! JUDGE DANA: So what guns are you sticking to, Mr. Gangaram? Your wife is standing here with tears rolling down her face. We say in this courtroom, it is better for you to tell your story than Mr. Shull or Mr. Siewert or any of our other experts. Are you gonna tell your story? No, I'm not gonna tell my story, Your Honor. Mr. Shull, what else did he share with you?
He just shared with me that he did have sexual contact one or two times that his wife is unaware of while they've been together. JUDGE DANA: Did you tell him that? Here you go. Yes, I did. (AUDIENCE CLAPPING) There you go. I can't do this. I can't do this.
I only had sex one time outside of our marriage when we first started. That was back in 2014. We were married then, though. I can't continue in this marriage though. I don't know what's gonna happen.
(AUDIENCE CLAPPING) Ms. Pounds, you all have been dating but you say you have invested time, energy, your emotions and maybe most importantly your money in this relationship and you believe he's cheating and you think your investment is not worth anything. Tell us why you opened this case. I think what this was, was a bad investment.
-[Judge Dana] Okay. -Mr. Gipson was living in another state. -[Judge Dana] Okay. -And we met online.
And we clicked, just like best friends, like we knew each other forever. We talked every day for months, for hours, it was like, feelings developed and he started to say, -he wanted to be with me. -[Judge Dana] Okay. So, I paid for him to come from another state to be with me because he didn't like where he was and he wanted a fresh start with me. When he said that-- And I knew things about him -through conversation. -[Judge Dana] Right. He liked fishing, he liked hunting. I said, "I can save money at the grocery store, I'll never go hungry, if I get with him."
So I gave him a chance. [Judge Dana] Mr. Gipson... ...she's accusing you of cheating. What do you think about that? [Anthony] Your Honor, I'm here to prove my innocence. -[Judge Dana] Okay. -That I have not been cheating on this lady. -[Judge Dana] Okay. -I know from
prior history or whatnot, I had... pictures or whatnot in my phone. But I need to get a word. Well, I'm here to prove my innocence today.
Have you tried to convince her that you have not been cheating? -Yes, plenty of times. -Yes. I had tell her. I-- Because... the pictures or whatnot don't mean I'm cheating. Hey, those in the past, hey, let's go forward. -[Judge Keith] Ms. Pounds... -[Patricia] Yes.
-...since you opened this case, why do think he's cheating? Really, your court room don't have enough time for me to tell you all the reasons, -that's the truth. -Wow. -[Patricia] But... -Okay. ...Mr. Gipson, will get up in the morning, his phone'll ring. He'll look at the phone, and don't answer it.
So, one morning, I got off work, I looked at the phone, -I see a woman name. -[Judge Dana] Uh-hmm. [Patricia] "That's my family member." I say, call her, let me talk to her since she your family member. He picked up the phone and just start to talk-- He never called anybody. He said this... -[audience laughs] -...he said... now, the name is on the phone, he called and act like somebody else. He say, "Hey...
where she-- where is my family member? Well, tell her call me back." And put the phone down. Never called nobody. -All right. Mr. Gipson. -Did you do that? Did you really put a phone up to your head and talk...
-No, sir. -...without... -No, sir. -...dialing or pushing -a button or anything? -[chuckles] No, sir. What happened? It's my family member. She just move from Indiana. She had never met anyone on my father's side.
No one other than my father. -I still haven't met her. -[Anthony] But... But if I do let her meet her she's still not going to believe it. And that's okay. But the fake phone call, though. [Anthony] Wasn't no fake -phone call. -[audience laughs] She was so-- She be-- When she getting in that frantic tantrum mode, she don't pay attention or would not listen.
I'm imagining the scenario, and I know I keep talking about this, but I'm just trying to imagine the scenario, "Okay, I'll show you. 'Hello?'" [audience laughs] "'Is she there? Okay, no. Tell her, I'll call her back.' -See? Told you." -[laughs] -That is just-- -[Patricia] That's what he do.
[Anthony] Not true. And you're saying that didn't happen? When I pass this test I'm gonna go back I'm going to let her meet her. Okay. Well, I hope you get to pass this test
-and we gotta hear. -I know I haven't cheated. -That's the... -[Judge Dana] All right. ...purpose of me coming. Ms. Pounds, have you observed anything else
that'd make you think that Mr. Gipson is cheating? I ain't got enough time to tell you everything, I observed, but I'm gonna tell you this. My phone start blowing up... messages. Some woman says she was at my house with him. [audience exclaims] [Patricia] Said she been in my bed.
Said she been in my-- in my house. She knew my name, first and middle. She knew certain things I had in my house. She knew what type of vehicle I drove.
-[audience exclaims] -She knew what shift I worked. She told me when I go to work, he come to her. Let me ask you this, what does she say about Mr. Gipson? He has a nickname, he goes by the nickname Black. To me, I never call him that. That's some low stuff, Black. He tells everybody when you meet him, "I'm Black."
He don't go by his first name. Anybody who know me, know I'm dating him, all my friends know him -by his first name. -[Judge Dana] Okay. [Patricia] They don't even know him. Nobody associated with me calls him Black.
So, it'd have to be somebody, who he knows and has told -to call him that? -Yes. [Judge Dana] Mr. Gipson, how does this woman know all of these details -about Ms. Pounds and about you? -[Anthony] It got-- It gotta be someone she know. It got to be. Because, first of all, I'm not on social media, period.
How do you explain, then, the level of detail that this woman messaged Ms. Pounds with? I have the slightest idea, but I'm here to-- The lie detector test gon' prove everything. [Judge Dana] Let me ask him this. -Do you know this woman? -[Anthony] No, I do not.
You don't know anything about this woman? -[Anthony] No. -Never met her? -No. -[Judge Dana] Never dated her? -No. -Didn't sleep with her?
-[Anthony] No. -Haven't slept with her -since you've been with her? -No, I-- I ain't slept with no one since I've been with her. -[Judge Dana] This is crazy. -[Anthony] Hey, the test is gonna prove it all. [Dana exhales] Ms. Pounds, you say you got a lot of reasons why you think he's cheating. Can you give me another one?
-[Judge Dana] Hmm. -I seen text messages, actually it was one woman I called back but it was women. These are text messages between this other woman and him? Yes. I had his phone, I was looking
where they was talking and I text the woman. I said, "This is his woman, I got his phone. Who are you?" And she was like, "Wow." And I took the phone in there to him, but at that time, I took my phone, and I had saved her number. I took the phone to him,
he jumped out the bed and ran in the bathroom. And the woman said she don't know nothing about me. Yeah. I got evidence right here. -All right. -You brought something with you? The woman don't know nothing about me. He told her he's single,
he live by his self, got a nice job, nice truck. [Judge Dana] Ron, would you get this document? Know nothing about me. [Ron] Yes, Your Honor. None of the women know nothing about me, -he's single. -Thank you. He's single, that's what...
-...he tells 'em? -[Patricia] He ain't got -no woman. -Okay. [Judge Keith] So, this picture, you're sending it to her saying, "Look, this is my man, -we in a relationship." -[Patricia] Cause she didn't know nothing about me-- She didn't know anything about you and she responds, "Okay. Y'all got it..." - [Judge Keith] "...no pressure. -"No pressure." Right. So, who is this woman and why does she think you're single? Well, at that time, yeah, I was still on the app, browsing.
-On what app, a dating app? -[Anthony] Yeah, a dating app. -Yes. -I know you think you answered my question. You real good at avoiding the answer. I asked you, who is this woman and why does she think that you are single? Why does she think that? -Unless you told her. -Because-- I didn't tell her I was single, it probably was because we were chatting. So evidently we were chatting,
that mean I must've been single to her. [audience exclaims] And that's a reasonable presumption for her to make right, since you're on a dating app? -[Judge Keith] Right? -Yeah. But he's already said, I don't do social media, so how's he on a dating app? That's not recent, that's then. That ain't no recently. That's not recently. Well, you know, we're interested too.
Because there's her side, there's his side, and there's the other woman's side, and she is here today. Ron, would you please escort her in? [Anthony] Bring her in! [Anthony] I haven't seen her. I wanna see who she is. Please, go right up there. -How you doing? -Hey, how you doing? -Nice to meet you. -You too.
[audience murmuring] Would you state your name, please, for the record? Latonya Smith. And Ms. Smith, what is the nature of your relationship with Mr. Gipson?
Um, I actually met him through POF so we actually never established a relationship. Did he ever express to you that he was in a relationship? Nope. He told me he was single. -[audience exclaims] -[Anthony chuckles] [Judge Keith] He specifically told you he was single? -[Latonya] Yeah. -[Judge Keith] This wasn't a presumption you made because you were -on a dating site. -No. He told me he was single. Did you ever receive any photographs from him? I did. I received one
where he was standing by a truck or whatever. And he was telling me that was his truck and... -This the truck. -All right. -[Latonya] Okay. -All right. Let's take a look. [Judge Keith] So, this is a picture of a truck. This is the picture that he sent you saying, -"You know, this is my truck."? -Yeah.
Okay. Well, can we-- Ron, would you take this to Ms. Pounds. Would you look at it and tell us whether that's your truck or somebody else's truck? -That's my truck. -[Anthony laughs] [Judge Dana] So, Mr. Gipson,
if you're in a relationship with Ms. Pounds, why are you telling Ms. Smith you single, and that all that Ms. Pounds is paying for belongs to you? -Ask Ms. Pounds why she-- -Oh, no! No, no, no, no!
Why would she tell-- All right, go ahead. You about to make me curse up in here. Now I'm gonna ask you one more again as my grandmother said. Why did you do what you did? Well, at that time, she was telling me to go sow my royal oats. [audience members hoot] Out her mouth, she a witness. She's right there. You know what, I'm gonna let you talk to him, Mr. Cutler.
Ms. Pounds, you shaking your head. -Did you tell him that? -This is what happened. He wanna go out to the club. We get dressed to go out, he be looking at women when we together. -[Judge Dana] Mm. -I seen it in him
and I told him, "You are not ready. All this stuff that you doing, you're not ready to be in a relationship. You need to go be by yourself, and get all that wildness out of you." That's what I told him. -That-- -[audience applauds] [Patricia] Let me tell you... let me tell you, he took it as if I told him to go do it while he with me.
-That what he took it as. -[Anthony laughs] [Judge Keith] So, Ms. Smith, let's just cut to the chase here.
Okay. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty. -[Latonya] All right. -Get on down to it.
Did you have a sexual relationship with Mr. Gipson? No. We never had a sex relationship. It never got that far. We only talked by phone for maybe about a week, then the young lady actually called me of the day of that morning that he actually suppose to-- We supposed to met up that evening.
So, you all made plans to meet up? Right. But when she called me, that nipped it in the bud for me. -Well, I think we have-- -I know, I have, just go on. [audience laughs, applauds] I-- Just put a fork in me, I am done. -[Latonya laughs] -[audience applauds] -[Judge Dana] Thank you. -Hey. Tell me when to go.
[Judge Dana] All right. The court has done a complete investigation. At this time, the court would like to call court expert, Guy Wolfe, and licensed certified polygraph examiner, Dave Lawrence, to determine is he cheating? [audience hoots] Clapping too.
I'm right. I'm clapping too. [Judge Dana] So, Mr. Wolfe, you have more than a dozen years in investigation and more than 20 years in law enforcement, -is that correct? -Yes, ma'am. It is. So, what did you do to investigate this case? So, before Mr. Gipson took his polygraph exam,
I sent Mr. Gipson into a room with one of my colleagues. -[audience exclaims] -[woman] Wow. [Wolfe] My colleagues posed as a litigant who was being accused of using his phone to cheat on his girlfriend. Mr. Gipson loosened up with my colleague
and began to start spilling the beans. He stated that he uses dating apps all the time and that he also was glad that the court did not summon his phone because he would have destroyed it. [audience gasps, exclaims] [Judge Dana] Hmm. So, did Mr. Gipson admit being intimate with any of these women that he's met online? -He did, Your Honor. -[audience exclaims]
Mr. Gipson stated that he has had sex with women he has met on dating sites. But that he's not had sex with all of them. And since I... -That ain't nothing to do-- -[Judge Keith] Mr. Gipson? We talking about when we were together.
That ain't got nothing to do with my past. So, you're saying that the women that you've met on the dating site that you slept with, that you confessed to, were before you were with -Ms. Pounds? -[Anthony] Yes, cause I had... I had no sexual intercourse with no woman since I've been with her. Well, we getting ready to go to the lie detector -exam. -[Anthony] They right there. -We about to find out. -[Anthony] Yeah. Woo!
Mr. Lawrence, you are a certified polygraph examiner, -correct? -Yes, sir. [Judge Keith] You administered a polygraph examination -on Mr. Gipson, correct? -[Lawrence] Correct. You asked him a series of questions? -I did. -[Judge Keith] All right. You asked Mr. Gipson,
"Since being in a relationship with Ms. Pounds, have you had sexual intercourse with anyone other than Ms. Pounds?" What was his response to that question? He said, "No." [Judge Keith] What did the polygraph determine? The lie detector determined he was being... -deceptive. -[audience exclaims] -[Judge Dana clears throat] -Mr. Gipson?
-[chuckles] I never had no... -[Patricia] Please. ...sexual intercourse with a woman. Lying. Liar. -You're still denying it. -[Anthony] Hey,
I told-- I told the truth. There was no-- And I know I haven't. All right. You asked Mr. Gipson,
"Since being in a relationship with Ms. Pounds have you had sexual intercourse with women whom you met on dating sites other than Ms. Pounds?" What was his response? He said, "No." [Judge Dana] What did the polygraph determine? The lie detector determined he was being deceptive. [audience exclaims] -[Patricia] Lord have mercy. -[stammering]
-[laughs] Really? -[Judge Dana] Well, you got-- You scored a perfect 100. Really? Let me just say that-- Go ahead, love. I'm gonna let you speak first, 'cause-- No, Ms. Pounds, I mean, you kind of knew. He ain't never been no good since he got to me, so. -It is-- It is what it is. -[Judge Keith] It is what it is.
He could never speak to me or... Never again. -And you're done? -[Patricia] Done. -You're done? -Finished. [audience cheers] Mr. Gipson, you've been set free.
She's been set free, but you been set free. -Right. -[Judge Keith] But it's at a price, because you lost out on a good woman. It was a woman who cared about you.
[Anthony] I ain't lost nothing. I ain't do nothing. [Judge Dana] And then to play this game of "I don't know." You can stand there from here to tomorrow and beyond and say you didn't but you did.
[Anthony] Hey, I know I didn't. -You did. You did! -That's the thing. Nah. -Out. I just-- I can't take it. -[Ron] Out of my court. 'Cause I can't even have...