BSc Creative Computing: In Conversation with Phoenix Perry and Anna Troisi
Hello everybody. Welcome, to. Ualccis. Creative. Coding, stream, here. Today, i have a very special, guest, uh it is our new course leader for the msc, program. Her name is anna and we're going to talk a little, bit about, teaching. And the course, and what you can learn. As well as just have a. Conversation, back and forth about our interests, and how we approach teaching and it should be a really fun time. If you have questions, about the bsc, program. Put them in the chat, window, over there, and, we will read them and answer them off as we go. And i look forward, to getting going, and. As always. You can. Find out more about the bsc, program, on our website, at. Arts.ac.uk. And. To just kick it off i'm going to go ahead and ask anna to introduce, yourself and say hello. Hi. I have some big problems with aldine's music, so we might have to. Lower it down. Uh i am the new. Course leader i'm super excited. I can't wait to start properly, in september, with the new academic, year. I wanted to introduce, on what we do and what we teach in the bsc, creative. Computing. At the cci. So. The good aspect of it is that we. Don't. Teach only how to code and how to use the computer, to make things. But we also introduce. A lot of, design. And. We try to build. Together. Um. How. Okay i'm closing oh much better now so thank you uh tom, for this uh we have a technical, help here so, it's much nicer. So we. Try to understand, how computing, and design, can be, um. Interlaced. One to another, in a way that you will be able to create, projects that actually have. Can have impact societal. Impact for example or environmental. Impact so you might. Try to change, to have the, someone changing policies, for example through your your, your work, and we are, really into. Um the idea of, uh activism. As an embedded, part of um. Our teaching so it's important that you, in the three years, um. Studying with us you also understand. How, uh you communicate. Your. Anger, or your, willing, willing to to change, something, uh so this is quite.
Quite Relevant, to us. The way um. How we do it is embedding, a lot of research, into what we're teaching, so. We. Would include. A lot of examples. Or things coming directly from the industries. We'll have. Speakers, coming to us talking to us and you will be able to go in the outside, world, and. Look, for. Problems, that still need to be. Solved in a creative way. I am. Very interested. In. In providing, individualized. Learning, this is something that we have been doing already. We have an incredible. Technical. Stuff. At cci. Uh and they are. So amazing, so, they they would uh be able to, see you every time you need. A small, help with your code or with a, small part of your project. So. It's a way to. To show how we think that you actually individually. Have, um. Your own value and we want them to. Be. This is really important to us we really take care of that aspect, we don't want all the students to be the same. Uh we are equal but we're not the same so we try to. Make sure that your. Inner. Creative, part, uh, is is out there. To be seen. Whatever. And however it is. Whether shape, might take. Um. Things that might be, important, actually are very important to us our, um. Research, has said already, so. We have a very, um. Very interesting, ratio. Between number of students, and, um. Tutoring, lectures, this is because. Lots of your lectures, will are also practitioners. Or. Researchers, so we need. Them to continue, doing that. It's quite important, that they embed the research in the teaching, as well so we. We do not involve, uh tutors, or lecturers, who are not. Really, in the word, uh, of the making. Um. Um. What else shall i add about this. Other things are important, to us. Phoenix do you want to say something. Sure i could ask something chat i was the course leader, for the bsc. This last year and it was, my honor, and privilege, to teach, an amazing, assortment, of, students, they had. Incredible. Work showed incredible, potential. We saw them engage with theoretical. Concepts. Such as, the history of computing. They had to talk about, epistemic, injustice. And how injustice, worked in technology. They had to take a look at the history. Of women. And. How they intersect with computing, and what gender looks like in that implication. We learned a bunch of physical hardware, stuff which was super exciting. We made some fun interfaces. Everything, from. Exciting, led, matrixes. To. Street. Uh panoramas. Where. Students. Created, little comic, worlds, that came on at specific. Times, with specific, interactions. And it was absolutely, fabulous, if you are doing. A bsc, now or you're interested in an undergraduate, degree this is the degree, i wish would have exit, had existed, when i went to school. And wrote a big chunk, of the the bsc. And, is very near to my heart because i kind of created, the program, that i wanted to. Have gone to myself. And that's a really. Exciting, opportunity. To be able to do, as an educator. Say hey you know, creative, coding and multi-disciplinary. Approaches were not a thing when i was younger but now they are. And you can come to school and study this hybrid. Of technology. And the arts, and, look at their impact, in society. And, how you can, change, and alter your world through technology, i think that's an incredibly, fascinating, topic, and, we would, welcome. Students that are interested, in exploring, that range of conceptual, territory. So that's a little bit more about the degree i will take any specific. Questions. That folks have around structures. In, the youtube. Comments and also i'll answer them on the stream, if you want to ask them. But what i thought was most interesting, about anna coming, into the cci. Was she and i have a whole host of complementary. Research. Focuses. We both are very interested.
In. Ecology. Activism. How it intersects. With. The arts, mine, mostly, all entirely. Inside, the game space and anna's is much more inside the creative practice and arts section. So it's been really interesting, for me to see the intersection, of where our work overlaps. And, learn, more about her practice. And one of the things that's really, blown me away working with anna so far, is how she approaches. Her job and her approach to the students. And she's got some really interesting strategies. For do that doing that. Anna would you mind telling us a little bit about, the approach, you take to communicating. With your students. Yes we can do that. So in the last. Past three four years i engaged with something called nonviolent, communication. Uh this was, developed by. Was let's say invented by gandhi but then developed later. By. Machad, rosenberg. The way how i approach the student, is. We can try later if you want. Phoenix so we can do a little bit of a kind of a. Test. It's asking, first of all now where's the problem, what is that. You want me to do for you, but it's asking them how do you feel. And we actually using a set of feelings, because most of the time, we. We have, we use words that are not correct to express feelings, for example. I feel. Um. Oppressed. Is not a feeling. Because. Oppressed. Is. You're intending, that someone is oppressing, you so you're very judgmental, when you're doing that. So maybe you feel frustrated. And maybe you can say. What is that you would need. After that so after analyzing, what, is that you're feeling how you're feeling, we should. Go on and try to understand. Uh what is that, you need, me to do in order for you to make to to meet your needs. And this is how we handle, all, requests, with the students, it's an amazing journey, because. Um. We understand. That we all have, uh vulnerability. And we need different type of help, and again goes into the. Idea, of, providing, a learning, that is. For the individual. Is not for the cohort. So there are many things that are handled, um. So we're, with pitching to the court but a lot is handed one by one.
With Students. And i love that it's my favorite part, teaching. And i learn every, every day. From. Students. I already have, um, amazing conversation. With the with the students that you had last year phoenix. And they are they looked so engaged with this process. I was, almost flattered, to, to be able to introduce this right away, uh just talking to them they were so happy so this is, great achievement, already, um. I hope that. I mean, the thing is that, communication. In a place where. You you don't want. Hierarchy. In the sense of the teacher being with you telling you what to do that's it. Communication, is quite important, so you want to work with the students really as a team. You want the students to be able to tell you um. When there is a problem, without, having a fear of, feeling, the fear of feeling, judged, or. Or anything like that really so it's it's good it's very good to build. A. Sense of, working, as a team so i love that. Awesome. It's really, good to hear your take on it, and it's really. Refreshing. To meet someone else who teaches, in a way that, is arriving, in the classroom. Fully present, and not. Simply. You know, pedagogically. Standing on the altar, and delivering. The message. Exactly. No one likes that that's not learning, that's, that's church. Oh that on that side i would like to also say that we are introducing. Um. A flipped class, it means that we actually do not. Do their teaching the way how. Students might be used to uh but we ask them to provide, mathew, to us so. We teachers might learn something. But it's a way to make them researching, and this is embedded in the research, environment, that we have cci. So what we do is that we give. A little bit of hint, and the students will be able to make some research and come back to us with their ideas. So we can open up uh debates. Uh, around, things and this can happen also when we are doing, uh more. Coding, like of activities. Where students can come, to. Us showing what they did and we can comment and discuss, on, specific, things that they made. Great, that's interesting, and really. Fun i thought it might be really interesting, to talk about how we create an inclusive, environment, at cci, and what we do differently. To support. Our baim and. Lgbtqai. Plus students. And, women, and other people who exist in marginally, spaces, within computing, with, you know different ability, levels, or different needs, what, what are your kind of approaches, to that and how do you see that working. I'm um. I feel i'm colon blind, so i don't, see colors. Which is a good thing to have, um. The way how we support, is, really through the individualized, learning, and, we. Don't really see differences, so whoever, need. Needs something different but needs are universal. It means that all people they have same type of needs the way how they feel. Around specific, needs, can be different, but the needs are are, universal, and this is what gandhi was saying. So, i think we, based all around this and what we tried to do is, obviously. Decolonizing. Our curriculum. And, including. As many, uh. Readings. Or. Artists, that might show that work, uh that come from all places. Um. That's really that's really important to us.
Yeah. I think that. That is, absolutely. The right. Direction, to head, as. You know a person working in this space, now and just being open to having conversations. And engaging. In a meaningful. Way. The other thing, that, folks would like to know a bit more about is your approach to flipped classroom, models. My personal, approach i don't know changes every every, now and then, um. It depends, on. On the students, so. This is something that i model. With the class that i'm working with. So i had cohort, where i could. For example deliver. A synchronous, video. And then. I could, so i could give a video, that they. They, would have uh find. Their time to watch it for the whole week so they would have watching, more and more if needed. Uh more than once, uh and then we wouldn't meet together, and discuss. Uh together, or do some uh exercise, together, or code together, if. It was a, coding. Unit. So the idea is that. We provide some information, to the students. But then we give a week for them to absorb, the information. And then. Come back to us we, the way how they elaborated, the information, so they will have to be able, to tell us more about how they felt and. Uh how was. Actually the material, that we, provided. And they, are required to add more, so this is something. Like a wiki, so they add information, to the information, that we give to them, and obviously the knowledge is not, just about information, about how we create, links in between information, so what we discuss, mostly, is, those links they're very personal, very. Individual, only. It's really personal, so. It's a one of those space where. Anybody, can really say what they think without. Feeling that they're doing, wrong or right. But we open debates, instead, which is much more useful, than. Discussing, if information, is correct, or wrong. But yeah i might change this, depending, on how students react to this so, if students prefer to have a, instead of a video, having a form, and some smaller, videos shorter videos, we can do that way, so it's something that. Most of the time i start in one way and then i modulate. Using.
Students Feedback, so it can change, cohort, from from court to cohort. But most of the time it's like that we give, an information, give a video or a. Small reading, or something, we ask the students, to come back to us with something more, to surprise, us. That's really nice and a fun approach. So now what might be kind of interesting. Is. To chat a little bit about. Some of your work, and how you bring it into the classroom. So could you give us an example, of where you've worked with a community, with a group of students and brought that kind of thinking into the classroom. This was not a prepared question so, um not that the other wares but. Um i need to think so um. I am fascinated, by data, in all forms. Uh so all my work is around data, and um, i see data everywhere, also where maybe they're not data. So. I might see data into audio, into sound, into. All. Kind of archives. Also very boring data seismic data for example they can be very boring. But, they can be also very creative, for a person like me who likes data. So, the way how, i. Approached, a few times. My passion. I have with data is asking students to collect. To gather data and to come back. To my class with something. Made. With those data that is also creative, but, they can say something. Because data. Themselves, they don't. Really say anything. It's only, through the way how we. Interpret, data and we show data, and we, transform, data, they can actually speak and say something. Actually the same. Set of data i can say. Something, or exactly the opposite, of. What they present, so. I ask always the students to have a critical. Um, thinking, around, data and how they can use data, in order to. To build. Uh. Around. Them around it. Um. So yes most of the time i just send students, out. Um. Can be, they can collect, for example data in the community. Uh ask things to people, i know, sounds banal. In this. Especially, now after the lockdown. Talking to people is actually quite, interesting. And quite relevant. So. Most of the time we think about the digital, world as a something that is outside, us, and we think about data as a only. Digital, data. I actually think that. Students. Should be able to. Find. The interesting, bits that we have into the analog, and the real world. So i always ask students to, um, use their their. Digital. Mind. Uh in what is that we have in real life. As well. Interesting. That's really fascinating. I. Potentially. Um. You know do something very similar, i'm really, into engaging, with the public in institutional. Settings. So i love taking groups of students, into places like tate modern. And showing. Exhibitions, that we co-designed, together. To engage, the public. In. Like. A way around, a specific, topic, so for example. We did it at welcome collection this year around, ecology. And play, and building, community. Between, people, in spaces. Which was. De-escalated. Soft. Gentle. Made people aware of. The, loss of ecology. In, the physical, world like those are the things that i like to do when i work with students. And i think that. You do some of that as well, and i am very excited, to see you work with other, outside institutions, at cci, because i think you're going to bring some. Amazing. Amazing. Projects, and or collaborators. Into the institute, so that's going to be really fun. Can't wait. Yeah it's going to be wow this is super interesting so we'll have to tell me more about this project, when we are offline. By chris. Yeah forest daydream, is a beautiful, project, i made with the msc, students, and we worked on it collaboratively. Collaboratively. With ben kelly. Who is a sound artist who also works at cci.
And He goes into rainforests. That are endangered, and records. Live, sound to capture. The sound of the environment, and we took that recording, and then built a. Atmosphere. And environment, for it in the physical space and welcome, that was this kind of third space, and, full of soft, objects. And beautiful, lights, and people just sort of laid in there and, relaxed, and you could choose to play a game there were games, involved, in the space. But they were not required. And there was no goal or purpose, of being in there other to enjoy the environment, and your fellow collaborators. We saw a lot of people hugging, laying on the floor, staring at the ceiling, and all the pretty lights, and, relaxing, and listening to the beautiful, sound, of a, full day, of the rainforest. From, you know, in the morning, all the way through. Late in the evening, early dawn and that was a really delightful, experience, to both, visualize. And or, let people experience. In a space in a city because we don't normally, encounter, those sounds you think, nature's, peaceful, and quiet it's actually quite a. Cacophony. And that was a really enjoyable. Experience, i think for people, to. Kind of be able to get their heads around what an atmosphere, like that might be like as a lived experience or begin to understand. Even just, that the. Smallest. Oh this piece, like it's so much deeper than that and obviously. You can't replace one of those two things, but you can begin to think about these problems that way which is what i think art is really good at doing it's good at making people want to explore, more and look more at. Things that they've. Not, really considered, before, things like nature being, peaceful. It's really interesting. It really links with another project of mine that, i am. Working in kenya. Have a fun for this is great um. So, it's interesting to see how the gathering the data is actually. Can be actually, part of, our artistic, expression, just the gathering the data. And i went to this, community. In bamboo, beach in kenya, very close to mombasa, being very rural place. To. Help them to gather data themselves. About themselves. So it was a. Project around creative, and active archive, of, their own identity, i didn't do much i was just there looking at how they were doing. It was amazing, because. Children, were asking questions to eldest people in the in the village. And we recorded, everything. We have this amazing, archive, that is, just really talking about them. And all these data, um. They will be transformed, into something else this is good, but i must say that, the fact of gathering, the data, itself. Was an incredible. Uh creative. Uh process, for them. Itself just gathering the data was um. Maybe the most important, uh part of the project so sometimes. Um, is the gathering, the data, that it's uh. It can be. Can be a moment of beauty, really. Um. So yeah and i like thinking about archives, as something that can. Can tell us more than just, what we are, but also what we want to be. This is the moment i really wish ben kelly was on the call because.
As An artist i collaborated. With him on that but that was a work that came from his own practice where he's built an archive, of these sounds, and he's developed, really deep and meaningful, relationships. With the communities, that he's gone into, and he has so much to say about those different communities, about the sociological. Impact, of. The world. And how it's impacting their environments, how it's changing their lives, and. I, felt like his approach, to going into, particularly. Communities, where he's an outsider, was profoundly. Respectful. And. Deeply. Integrated. Into. His own practice, and his process of sharing, and it was such a beautiful experience, to work with him so i, i'm. You know you can ask me anything about forest daydream, i love building, things where people have to come into atmospheres. And be together in ecologies. I'm very interested, in looking. At. Background. As like a subject, focus for research, because so often what goes on in our environments. Is non-representational. We don't, actually have a name for what's happening, but it's happening, right like. Covet, is happening, right now that is very much in our environment. So how does that impact how we impact. Or how we make decisions, about what we're going to do outside. Who we're going to talk to how close we're going to get to other people. What art projects we're going to interact with what art we're going to make, and. Looking, at that as a as a group is a collaborative. Effort, is a really. Powerful, experience. It is indeed it's really fascinating. Yeah. So another thing that would be really interesting. Is to ask you, how you got interested, in studying the environment. The environment. Or like looking at ecology, like what what i know i have a story for how i got there how did you get there. Um, i never. Uh i've never been out of that, um when i was a kid. I think i was, five or six. They. Introduced, a strange project, in the, in the school was about, water and how we should uh not waste water. And that was um. Really, flashing, for me. So my brain completely changed it um, after that but i must say that my father is an ecologist, he's a chemist. Oh about an interesting. Event, yeah, so he, is, always we have, been collecting. Lots of rubbish. Uh, wherever we went uh. With him. Um, so yeah i think his them.
Yeah, I think is, my, main focus. Uh. Since when i was a, child was his example, of, is, is modeling. Uh the care, for. For small, things really small places sometimes, just a road or or things like that he's a he's a chemist, it doesn't like, um. He does like uh. Us saying, things like oh this is a chemical, thing, because. For him like for me a data, are over everywhere, for him. Chemistry, is everywhere, but it's also natural, so. Nature, is full, of uh. Chemicals, that are actually natural, and it's really always being trusted into protecting, the environment. The natural. Chemistry, that we have in our nature. It's always amazing to me how early, impressions, or interactions, with technology, as a child can radically, change your life. I was, completely. As a child, obsessed. Obsessed, obsessed. With a few small things. My atari. And programming, games for my atari, which guess what. Spoilers. Alert, i got into kansas, i grew up, and then also, i was really into my robotics, kit i had a robotics, kit i made so many weird things, cars. Fans. Strange little objects. That moved around the house, i really loved building robots, and the other thing i loved was this little casio. Keyboard. And just my interaction, with these things really profoundly. Shaped my interest going forward as a creative artist so now i work with sound. Games and play. And computing. So i feel like it's these tiny, things, that hit us, with children, that really impact. Our interests, and learning to follow that and trust that you're not, completely. Off the rails. Into like exploring, something that no one else is interested, in, is a really powerful thing as an artist it's something we all have to learn, to like negotiate. And trust particularly, with technology, because often artists, invent new technology, for their practice. That just did not exist six weeks ago right. It's very interesting, i am i'm wondering. Um did you, ever had a sense of um. Feeling divided. So your creative part from your. Um. Kind of a computer scientist part, never have you ever never, this is anything. Never. I've always been in trouble about this, i was always, angry. At society, for not having a place for me. So i originally. Went to do i originally, enrolled in the computer science department, as a child. Because you know that's what smart, gifted children, in stem are supposed, to do right they're not supposed to be weird, out there artists that are also, like first chair and band, and, and love painting. That's not supposed to happen you're supposed to be one or the other you're not supposed to be both. You know. I was just super, super, nerdy as a child so i was into everything. Anything that would get me out of the house and away from my family. I didn't have to go home. You know cause kids. Um i was outside all the time i lived outside, and never went home, um. But anyway. I. Enrolled in the computer science department and it was really hostile, i was like. Wow there are literally, no women, i am it is me and the professor, and, she made a horrible, mistake, with me, and that like she was so excited to have me in the room she singled me out all the time. And i was like i just felt incredibly. Picked on like if there was a question in class, i was always coming to me. And um it taught me how to not get over excited, about, seeing. People who i, felt i could identify, with in the class and her she was lovely but. You know and the only friends i had were math majors, and it was just like, so, scary, and weird i'd, i was like really into comic books as a kid wearing combat, boots and fishnets. And. You know, high cut crop tops and little leather mini skirts and like sitting in the computer, science lab was a experience. Drop a pencil, and there would be like nine, nerds, like, diving at each other, but then, you know i i, went across, campus. And one day it was an experience i went over to the humanities, building i was like. Oh. Oh i am not alone. And i switched, majors to literature, and i spent all my time in the film department, making weird rocky videos, and, using, my programming, ability. To like, build things and connect with communities, so i started building early websites.
Uh Do i know how to code will i be able to understand, the math, and all of that. That's not a problem, and the way how we teach. Math for example is very intuitive. It's there are lots of visual they're null, just and, only formulas. Which is quite cool, um. We have a very creative, way of teaching which is the other bit. That we haven't discussed. But everything. That might look like, uh, very complex, is a thought in a way that is very. Experimental. For yourself you can try things out and learn, a. Little bit at the time so we're quite relaxed in having students coming without knowing, how to code. Awesome. That's really cool. The other thing that is really worth mentioning, at cci. Is we have a huge. Range, of resources. Our physical, computing. Offering, is, extremely. Lovely, i'm a big big fan. We have tons of sensors, and motors. And, 3d, printers. And, paper cutters, and we also have access to some of camberwell's, facilities. Which is a college at ual, so laser cutters, cnc, machines. All of that can, happen we have vr, kits we have two amazing. Technicians, in the growing technical, team. Which, they're there to support you along your journey, and make sure you really get the best out of it so you've got your lecturers, are really interested in your intellectual, development, you've got your technicians, which are really passionate, about, technical, skills, and helping you grow in these areas. And it's just a really wonderful, mix. I have an amazing, communication. From, our major huh. Amazing, question from youtube. All right, here it is anna are you ready, i've gotten, ready. Honest question, here. In the age of excessive, insulin, information. How do you critically. Assess. Which one is of great quality, with great. Possibility. Um. Um, that's really interesting. Super interesting. This is why i love students. Um. So well i will start with talking what is information, here, so what do we, consider, information. Itself, so we should start. Kind of defining, what is information, if information. Uh. Anything, that is. Published, for example. That is that information.
Is There. Something that is true. Is that information. Is it a real story for example. Or. Can. An invented, story, a fictional story be an information, a piece of information. Can a metaphor, be an information. Piece of information. Or not maybe, is, invented, so is that any information, can be can that represent, any information. So it's it's a it's a very tricky question, and it goes also into the, the philosophical. So obviously we have the big data. There. Um. That we should discuss. So we could have an entire course, uh answering, to this question, from many. Many, perspectives. If we are, referring. To. Academic. Writing. And. Quality. Of books, and things like that. How do we critically, assess. Which one is of great quality, so you're referring to quality, here. But also possibilities. I think this is very, personal. Um, i believe that wherever you can make connection, in between, things. While reading. Two pieces of information, if you create your own links in between things. It means that it's a, valuable, information, piece of information. If you can't create a link with with something that you know or something that. Um. Is part of your experience. Uh, probably that piece of information, is not good for that time for you might be good later or maybe it's not, uh of good quality. But it's not something that we can assess right away and it's very personal. So, depending, on um. What is the level of, your. What do you mean for information, you might receive a different, answer but it's such a beautiful. Um. Such a beautiful, question and very well. Uh presented, to us, that i would uh. Take it as a, in a wider way and i would say the information, becomes an information, when we are able to elaborate. On around it, and if we are not able to elaborate, around it it means, that, uh, it's a, it's maybe we're not ready yet or we will be ready later, or it's not, something that has good quality, but information, can be in a, simple blog as well as into an academic, piece of. Writing. What do you think. I personally.
Think, That the best way to get information, about whether your ideas, are great, or. Maybe not so awesome, is to. Build a thing. Take it to the public, and let them tell you because, they will tell you children in particular. Totally, honest. Like, you want to find out if your idea, has water, show it to children. They will immediately. Tell you if it's any fun. So i love taking. Things i make out into the public, and, sharing them i often try and so, as artists, and i'm. Profoundly. Guilty, of this so. Do as i say not as as my mouth moves. As they would or do it do as i say not uh do it do as i, say not as i do is that the correct phrase, here it's just i'm so bad at this but artists we tend to like sit on ideas, for years and years and years and years like stew. On them, and like do a little pr. Get that out. The more successful, artists that i've known over my career. Put things on medium, they make small experiments, and toss them up on twitter they have really successful, blogs or patreons. This is a way of connecting, to the public that's like direct, and instant and you, engage, conversation. And as an artist we're not here to just like work in the void right we're here to be part of our culture. And we're here to build a relationship. With. The people that are around us and i i think that just getting ideas, out and seeing. What other people, think of them and how they respond to them is the single best way to delineate, whether your ideas are good or they're total trash. So i've definitely, made some, real stinkers, in my day, that's part of the process, you just have to be vulnerable, and say, okay here's this idea i've had what do you think and sometimes people are like. I don't know about that and then sometimes, like this is the most amazing thing i've ever seen i love it i love it i love it, so it's a really. Good. Process, i think. So we do, we just said that, the best information, is actually the one that we produce. Anytime. I would say the best information. Is the information, that isn't seen as information, but it's conversation. Yeah. Great, awesome. All right so, this, has been a lovely. Lovely. Chat, if you're interested in our bsc. You can find us on the internet at. Arts.ac.ukcci. You can follow us here on youtube, we have a subscribe, button down there it's very friendly red button you can find, you can find us on twitter, at, uh, ual.i. Think we're just ualcci. Or ual-cci. Will come up search it it'll be fine, and you can also email us at cci. At. Arts.ac.uk. And we will either send you to the right place. Or answer any questions you may have. Thank you so much for showing up today and it had been really good to engage with all of you in the conversation. And anna thank you so much for coming. Thank you phoenix thank you everybody, there, thank you so much. Bye. Bye. You.