Yanis Varoufakis in Conversation with Daniel Denvir
So. The. Following, program, is brought to you by, haymarket. Books. And. At a time, like this. Radical, ideas, are obviously, needed more than. Ever. And. Haymarket. As well as producing. Uh. These, virtual, events. Brings out, books. By. Aaron doddy roy. Kianga, yamada, taylor, angela. Davis, naomi, klein. Uh. And many other. Wonderful, writers. And, uh if you're moved, by. Any of the program. That you're about to see. You can. Support. The work of haymarket. By. Buying their, books, from their own. Website. And even better. You can join. The haymarket, book. Club. Hello, everyone. And welcome, and thanks everybody, for joining us my name is daniel denver i'm the host of the dig, a podcast, from jacob, magazine. I'm also the author, of all american, nativism. How the bipartisan, war on immigrants, explains politics, as we know it which came out this year, from verso. And i'm really honored, to be hosting this conversation, today, with giannis verofakas. Giannis. Considers himself to be a politician, by necessity. Rather than choice which i think is an important, distinction. He is an economist, and academic by training. And currently a member of the hellenic parliament. Secretary, general, of. Mara, 25. Co-founder, of dm, 25. And of course as everyone. Listening, watching, i'm sure knows, was the former finance minister, of greece. He's taught economics, at the universities, of east anglia. Cambridge, and sydney. As well as at the university, of texas at austin. He's the author of a bunch of books, including, adults, in the room. And the week suffer what they must, and. The global minotaur. Before. We begin our program. I want to thank the organizers, of this virtual event. Lannon foundation, and haymarket, books. For the past 22, years, landon foundation's, readings, and conversation. Series. Has featured inspired, writers of fiction. Non-fiction. And poetry. As well as cultural, freedom advocates, with a social political. And environmental, justice, focus. And also. I guess podcasters. Like myself. Lennon, is excited to offer, these programs, online, to a global audience. And video and audio recordings, of everything. Are available. At their website, which is, lannon.org. L-a-n-n-a-n.org. He market books. Is, as you also probably know a radical, independent, non-profit, book publisher, based in chicago. Haymarket's, mission is to publish books that contribute to struggles, for social and economic, justice. And now. More than ever, it is really critical that we support independent, publishers, like haymarket. And independent, bookstores. And independent, voices. There are three ways you can do that. First. Buy books from haymarket. Second you can join the haymarketbooks. Book club. And third. If you are sitting there, in a position, to make a donation. No matter how small it is. By way of venmo. There will be a card, on the screen. About how to do this right now i believe as i'm speaking it might be right below me my face. Uh. Or in the youtube chat actually. I think it's in the youtube chat, if you can make a donation, to haymarket, via venmo. Please, do so. It goes a long way. This video, will be recorded, and shared afterwards. On the haymarketbooks. Youtube channel. And it will also be archived, as part of the landon foundation's, reading. And conversation. Series. It'll also be posted. On my podcast. The dig. As an audio podcast, episode, i think, next week. Please, subscribe to haymarket's, youtube, channel. Like this video now. And share it with as many people. As you feel comfortable, sharing, this video with. Uh. I want to let you know before we get rolling, about a few upcoming, events. In haymarket's, live stream series. First up. Next thursday, august 20th. At 5 00 p.m, est. We have. The struggle, for abolition. From the u.s to palestine. Then on wednesday, august 26th. Econom. Economics, for the 99, percent. And you can register, for these upcoming events, on eventbrite. And i believe the link for those eventbrites, is being posted, in the chat, as we speak. A few brief, housekeeping. Items. We. Well not we but someone, from haymarket, or lannon. Is moderating, the chat. We. Cannot, guarantee, that everyone, will observe our community, guidelines, though we hope you all do. People who violate, those guidelines. Which you should think of as something, like the golden. Rule. Will have your comments deleted. As quickly as we are able. For those who want to follow the chat, we suggest that you use the top chat function. Rather than live, chat. And. With so many people joining the call. We may need your patience, if we have any technical, issues. There are hundreds hundreds of people watching, i think maybe more.
If Your stream gets choppy. It might help, to, reduce your image quality. And hey market will give instructions, on how you do that in the chat. If, our youtube, feed is interrupted, for any reason. You may need to navigate, back, to the youtube, haymarket, books page. And then the feed should resume, there if there's any interruption. The event will have live, closed, captions. Instructions, for accessing, the captions. Are being posted in the chat. With that in mind, all of us will all also try to speak a little more slowly. Which for me is not a big problem, i'm a pretty slow, speaker, be honest on the other hand. Um, thank you to nicole for live captioning, this event. We will have some time after the discussion, toward the end of it for a q a. Um. Including your questions, so if you have a question. As they occur to you post them in the youtube chat window. And we'll get to those later in the program. All right, uh with no further ado i would like to. Introduce. Giannis, verofakis. Thanks giannis. Well thank you so much, um it's um. It's a it's an honor, to be here. I wish i was uh in santa fe as it was originally, planned but then again. Make do with technology. And, maybe, reach. A wider, audience. Let me begin. With something that happened. Two days ago, because. I think, history, is going to mark this event. As quite extraordinary. Two days ago. Folks. Something, that has never happened. Before, in the history, of capitalism. Occurred. It happened, on both sides of the atlantic, and i'm sure that it happened in, many countries in asia as well but, i haven't looked at the art of data yet. Let's begin in britain, in london. The news came out, quite. Horrific, news. That the british economy. Had tanked. It suffered. According to official statistics. The worst. Slump. In its history. More than 22. Down. Compared to last year. During the first seven months. Of. 2020.. Remarkably. On the same day, and after. This horrific, announcement, was made. Guess what happened. At, the london money markets, the london stock exchange. It rose, magnificently. By two percent. The so-called ftse 100 index. Wind up. On the same day. While. Most of you are in the united states, so you know what the climate. The political, climate, the atmosphere. In the states is these days you know better than i do, but from what i hear. You live in a country that is beginning to look like a failed state. Not just. A struck, economy. And yet. On, that, same, day. Wall street. The the s p 500, index to be precise. Hit. An all-time, historic. Record. When i. Noticed these two remarkable. Events. I just couldn't contain myself so, i tweeted, the following. I said something like, yeah financialized. Capitalism. Has, decoupled. From the, from the capitalist, economy, financialized. Capitalism. Has decoupled. From the capitalist, economy. Skyrocketing. Skyrocketing. Out of earth's orbit. And living behind, it broken lives and dreams. And then i added just for as an explanatory. Comment that as the united kingdom sinks into the worst recession, ever, and the united states edges, towards, failed state status. The ftse 100. Goes up by two percent. And the s p 500, breaks, an all-time record. Now. This phenomenon. Has, been. Culminating. So to speak percolating. Since 2008. But never has been seen. In, such, stark, colors. And. Shapes. And shades. You see, think about it before 2008. And money markets. Also behaved. In a manner, that. Defied, humanism. Do you remember. Those of you who are old enough to remember. The, pre-financial. Collapse, of 2008. Period. When. News of mass firings, of, workers, by general motors, by. General electric. And so on, would, routinely. Be followed. By sharp prices. In the share price. Of these companies. Of the companies that were so called, letting, workers, go, as if they were concerned with their liberation. From the shackles, of employment. But at least back then before 2008. There was a weird. Inhumane. But nevertheless, a logic. A capitalist. Logic. To the correlation. Between, firings. Of workers. Increases, unemployment, in effect. And rises, in share prices. The logic was this that. Once. Speculators. Predicted. A reduction. In the company's, wage bill. Expenses, on wages. Yeah they. Immediately, assumed, or they believed, that there was. A, reasonable, assumption that others would assume. That this, loss of personnel.
Would Lead to. You know, a rising, profits. Fewer, wage costs. More, left, over, for shareholders. At least in the short run. The mere belief. That there were enough, speculators. Out there. Thinking. That there were enough speculators. Out there. Who would, form the expectation. That. Enough, financial. Power, would enter, the stock exchange. To buy shares, of companies, that fired workers, that was enough, to. Explain, the phenomena. An awful phenomenon, but. One at least that did not. Defy, logic even capitalist, logic. Compare and contrast, to what's happening today. We're in the midst, of this pandemic. Not one person, in their right mind. Imagines. That there are speculators. Out there. Who believe that there are enough speculators. Out there, who believe that company, profits, in the united kingdom or in the united states. Will rise anytime, soon that there will be enough left over. For dividends. For shareholders. And yet. Even though there is no such, delusion. And no one, believes. That somebody else believes that. Yet. They buy shares. Of companies. In the doldrums, of the pandemic. You know as if they are hotcakes. With enthusiasm. Let me make this absolutely clear. It is spectacularly. Wrong, to try to find, any correlation. Any logic. That connects. What is going on in the real world, of wages, of profits, of output, of sales. And, in the world of the money markets. So boys and girls. Friends. Members of the audience. There's no point in trying to find a link, between what's going on in the real world. And what is going on in the money markets that is the dick coupling which is unique it has never, happened before, in the history of capitalism. It is not that speculators. Here that the united kingdom economy. Or the united states economy. Have may have tanked. But, ah, they think let's buy, shares because we need to buy into the deep, things are going to get, better. No. The situation. Is far. Far, worse. They don't give a damn. About the economy. This is why. I'm referring to the decoupling. Of money markets. From real capitalism. For the economy. In which capitalism. In terms of production, and distribution, of goods and. Services. These speculators. Like you and me, can see that kovi 19. Has put capitalism. In suspended, animation. That it is destroying, lives and livelihoods. That it is damaging. Our economies. In a way that. May turn out to be almost permanent, or at least. Medium. To long term. That it is. Causing, a new tsunami, of poverty, that it demonstrates, in every country, and every town. The pre-existing. Deep, class, and race divides. Some of us who were privileged enough to keep, social distance rules. During the lockdown. Know very well, because we could see an army of people out there, laboring, for the pittance. And at the risk of their lives. To cater. To our needs. No. What we are living through now. Is not your typical. Capitalist. Disregard. For human needs. The standard, tendency, of the capital, system to be motivated. Only. By the needs, of profit maximization. Of, as we left is used to say or still say of capital accumulation. No capitalism. Is now, in a new, strange. Weird. Degenerate. Phase. I call it, socialism, for the very very few. Courtesy of central banks and governments, catering. To a tiny, oligarchy. And. Stringent. On austerity. Stringent. Austerity. Coupled, with, cruel, competition. In an environment, of, industrial. And perhaps, technologically. Advanced, feudalism. For almost everyone else. This week's events in wall street and the city of london. Mark, the turning point, the historical. Moment. That i i'm convinced about that future historians, will undoubtedly. Pick out to say, it was in the summer of 2020. When financial, capitalism.
Finally, Broke. With the world. Of real people, including. Capitalists. You know, old-fashioned, capitalists. You know capitalists, who are antiquated. Enough. To continue to try to profit. From producing, things. From producing. Goods and. Services. But. Let me. Take you right to the beginning let's begin at the beginning. How did it all begin. Let's go beyond. Capitalism, actually before capitalism. Yeah during, feudalism, feudal times. When the lord of the land. Owned the land and more or less the people working on them, back then. That. Debt. Owing, owing, money. Or lending money. You know appeared, at the very end of the economic, cycle, a mere reflection, of the power to accumulate, by the landed gentry. Uh. Who had the. Authority. The power. To. Just, siphon, off or. Gather. The surpluses. You see, you remember under feudalism. Production, came first, so the peasants worked on the land they planted. The harvested, that was production this first thing that happened. Then you had distribution. How did it happen, how did, distribution. Unhold, the sheriff. On behalf of the load. Would come over, you know. And collect. The share, of the harvest. That, belonged. To the lord. And that depended. On. The relative, power, of, the feudal, gentry. Over the peasants, the extent which they feared, that the peasants that were going to revolt. Or not join their armies, when. They want to conquer more land in the surrounding, areas or all the way to palestine, whatever it was. So production, was first distribution, came second. That, came, last. Third. And it only emerged, at the very last, stage of the cycle. When the lord, who had accumulated, all the surplus, and would sell. Most of it in local markets. Would lend his money. To debtors. Often to the king himself. Back in england. Now what is, phenomenal, about capitalism. Is that it reversed, the order. Once. Land, had been commodified. After the enclosures, when the peasants, were, thrown off the land in england. And in wales, and in scotland. With the enclosures. Immediately. Land, became commodified. Because, suddenly, every acre of land, was associated. In terms of price. With the price of the wool, that, would grow, on the. Back of sheep that replaced, the peasants. In on that acre of land. And labor was commodified, because all those um. Expelled. Peasants, would knock on people's doors in the nearby, towns and villages and say i will do anything, for a loaf of bread that's the first labor, market, the first labor supply. So once, labor, and land had been commodified. Debt. Was necessary. For the first time in human history. Before, production, began. Now think about landless, capitalists. Landless peasants. That were given an opportunity. By. The lord. To um. Lease, a piece of land. In order to manage the sheep on it and act as a tiny little. Dirt, poor entrepreneur. This landris capital is had to borrow. In order to lease workers. Land, and later machinery. Or tools. Who would they, borrow from, the lord. But that came first, before, they could. Hire workers, and get, equipment. In order to work the land that they leased from the landlord. After the enclosures. Before that they had to borrow money, so that comes first. Then production, begins. And distribution. So that. Effectively. Was the fuel. That gave, capitalism. It's incredible. Over, from the 18th, century. Onwards. Now, that's, the very beginning, we're talking about 18th century, what made capitalism. Genuinely. Successful. And what allowed, it. Effectively, to, take over, the four corners, of the planet. And to make it possible for karl marx to write, the epic. Celebration. Critical, celebration but celebration, nevertheless. Of uh. Globalized. Globalizing. Capital, accumulation. Uh, was, the second. Industrial. Not. The second industrial revolution, which was based on. Electromagnetism. And robert maxwell's. Wonderful, equations. That unified. Electricity. And, magnetism. And that allowed, for things like the. Telegraph. The telephone. Um, electricity. Power generation. The light bulb, and so on. To create, the mega firm. Because when edison, created. His conglomerate. That was the first time we had a networked, firm. A firm that produced, everything from the power plant generating, the electricity, all the way to the light bulb that's a network. These mega firms. To be financed. Required, mega banks. That would provide, them with the money.
The Little banks the small fragmented, banking systems. Of the. 19th century, early 19th century, middle, 19th century were simply not enough so the mega firm. Required. A mega bank. And this, new. Agglomeration. This new network. Of mega firms, and mega banks. Is the capitalism. The triumphed. It is not, the capitalism. Of adam smith. Who romantically. Refers. To the baker. The butcher, and the brewer. But it is the capitalism. Of mega firms and mega banks. This kind of network, that, in the mid 1960s. John kenneth galbraith. Described. Brilliantly. In a book that everybody should read even today. Called the new industrial, state. Uh he referred to galbraith, referred to this. Combination, of megaphones, and megabanks, as the techno structure, the technostructure. The technostructure. Which is effectively. A centrally planned, gigantic. System of power. That. Limits competitions. Feather beds, political. Campaigns. Effectively, buys politics, out. Controls. Money creation. And, under. The, guys. These guys. Of democracy, on the one hand when there is no democracy, there is just oligarchy, with elections. And other the guys of the free market there are no free markets they're all monopolized. By the techno structure. You have, the magnificent. Success, of capitalism. Um in the. 1920s. Now the problem with mega banks. Is that, um. They have a remarkable, capacity. To conjure, up money, from thin air. Most of. Our audience today, knows, that. When a bank gives out the loan it doesn't come out of the savings of anyone. It comes out of. Thin, air. When the bank of america, or citibank. Grants you a loan fifty thousand. A hundred thousand dollars. This money doesn't exist. It's simply numbers that appear. On a ledger, an electronic, ledger. On your atm. Screen, or, your, web banking. Application. Once you start spending that this money these numbers go from. Your, row, on that. Um. What is a database. To the row of somebody else. As long as. This, money generation. Generates, new profits. Then the system, is not a pyramid scheme. But, the more successful. It is. At, generating. New, value. The banking system the commercial, banking system, finds it even more profitable. To generate, even more. Paper money. To conjure up even more, greater. Larger. Taller, mountain, ranges. Of privately, minted money. At some point, this just collapses. This is 1929. For you. After 1929. Did what did we have. Well the the. The. New deal, in the united states from 1933. Which then morphed, in 1944. With the bretton woods conference. Into a global. New deal. With. Political. Force, used in order to keep bankers. Effectively. Neutered. A system. Of. A global. Plan. With the dollar at its center. Ran, from washington, dc internationally. Which collapsed, in 1971. Why, because the united states, lost, its surpluses, trade surpluses. And by that time it was impossible, to maintain. The hegemony. Of, effectively. A single currency. International, capital, system. And then we go from, the global plan. Era, of the 1950s, and 60s. Into. What i call the gl the global minotaur, era you need to have read my book in order to see why i'm calling that so just forget it for a moment. What we have is a remarkable, period between the 1970s. And 2008. When the united states. From. Being a surplus country becomes a deficit, country, steps on the accelerator. Boosts, its taxes, magnificently. And you have. The united states, states. Economy. Operating, like a huge vacuum cleaner, that sucks into the territory of the united states. Both, the net, exports. Of china. And of course that before that of germany, of japan, and so on, and. 70. Of the profits. Of these foreign capitalists. On top of that tsunami, of money coming to wall street, you had. Financialization. You gave a few billion dollars. To a banker to play with every day for five minutes they find ways of making this grow for themselves. It's those. Paper. You know. Paper tigers, or houses of cards. That collapsed, in our generations. 1929. Which take place. Took place in, 2008.. After 2008. Capitalism. Changed drastically. In their attempt to reflow, the crashed financial, system. Central banks channeled. Rivers, of cheap debt money to the financial, sector. While fiscal austerity, limited. The public's, demand, for goods and services. Unable to profit from austerity, hit consumers, in the states, in greece and germany. Corporations, and finances, were hooked up to the central banks. To that, constant. Drip, feed. Of, debt.
That Central banks were producing, on behalf. Of corporations. That were becoming zombified. And then in 2020. Covet 19, came along. Covet 19 found capitalism. In this zombified, state. With consumption, and production, hit, at once. Governments, must now replace, all incomes, to a gargantuan. Extent. The way things are going. The zombification. Of banks and corporations, that we've been experiencing. Since 2008. Will engulf, the rest of the capitalist, economy. The necessary, condition, for avoiding this. Is a massive restructuring. Of public and private debts. Which of course our oligarchy, regimes are going to fight to the nail. Against. So the point i want to leave you with. And with which maybe you can start a conversation. Is that post capitalism. Is already happening. My difference, with fellow leftists. Is that i do not believe. That there is any guarantee. That, what comes after capitalism. Is necessarily, going to be a good thing, it could prove very dystopic. Can you imagine conditions, that may prove sufficient. For post-capitalism. To be good. Allow me to finish, with, a speculative. And controversial. Statement. That will only happen. Markets, can only begin to function. In the public, interest. If on the one hand, we terminate, share markets. Terminate, them, not regulate, them terminate, share markets. And terminate. Not regulate. Terminate. Labor markets. While at the same time, we terminate, commercial, banking. And having the fed or the ecb, or the bank of england, central banks. Granting. Everyone. A digital. Account, with a central bank. Wow, uh, thank you for that incredibly. Rapid, fire trip from feudalism. To, our present dystopic. Moment and i want to start with the present, dystopic, moment because. And the current, degenerate, state of capitalism, which is somehow. Just far more degenerate, than the last time we spoke a few years ago. In new york. Because in fact we cannot even be together in person today. In santa fe as planned, because things have gotten so, profoundly. Dystopic. So, to start and you you reference this tweet and i have the text of it here, you wrote. Uh. Financial, capitalism, is decoupled, from the capitalist, economy. Skyrocketing. Out of earth's orbit. Leaving behind it broken lives and dreams. As the uk, sinks into the worst recession, ever. And us, edges towards failed state status. Edges. Um. The, ftse. 100. Goes up 2. And the s p 500. Breaks, all time record. How, how. Does a materialist, analysis. Account for this is this the inevitable. Trajectory, of finance, within. Capitalism, or does it have to do with, the function, of finances. Finance and the role of finance. Within, this very particular. Political economic, conjuncture. Oh my analysis is 100, materialist. Except that. Capitalism. Deals, not, in material, goods anymore. It deals, always has dealt in fictitious. Capital. That has been its power. That's why, you see i, i made the point that, when we shifted from fidelity, capitalism. That was no longer, a, repercussion. Of social relations of production, and distribution. But became a prerequisite. What really unleashed, huge productive, powers. You know from the steam engine, driven. Textile, factories. To today's, apple and google. Has been this reversal. That that comes first. In another book that i wrote um, addressing, my daughter it's called, talking to my daughter about the economy. I try to explain it as, as follows it is as if the banker. Operating, on behalf of the capitalist. Pushes his hand i'm going to use his not his or hers. His hand. Through the. A membrane. Which divides. The present, from the future. Reaches. His hand reaches into the future. Grabs. Value, that has not been created yet.
Brings It to the present. And lends it to capitalists, to invest, into, you know technologies. Machines. Robots and so on, to produce this value and return into the future. And this, has been incredibly. Progressive. And created. Remarkable. New, wealth as well as. New forms of depravity. Uh, this has been the triumph of capitalism, over the last 200, years. But the tragedy, here is and this is a. A bit like a shakespearean, tragedy or an ancient greek, sophocles. Like tragedy. That, the more successful, it is the greater the incentive, of the banker to, keep reaching into the future. For more value to bring, to the present when the president at some point runs out of a capacity, to convert, it into value and therefore. To repay the future, and that's when a crisis happens, and when the crisis happens the state. Steps in, and bails out the bankers. If it doesn't bail out the bank is as in 1929. At the present hoover, the whole thing collapses. Uh until. Something is done. In, the only difference with, 2008. Between 1929. And 2018. And in 2008, that didn't make the same mistake they bailed out the bankers. Which is not a good thing they should have, bailed out the banks but not the bankers but that's, politics. The fact is that they bailed out the bankers. And then what's the difference between. What's the difference between, 2020, then and 2008. And in 1929. If this is a more, qualitatively. Unique. Decoupling. Why, if this is an inherent contradiction, in capitalism, between, between finance, and the real, uh, economy, what's. What's happening now that, that you think is different. You see i'm one of the few people who think that 2020. Is not that significant. I think the significant, dates. Uh for capitalism, where 1929. And 2008.. In 2008. We had the bailing out of the banks. Which effectively, what it did was. It zombified, the banks, they are neither they were neither dead nor alive. They were drip fed by public money. Okay. And, what happened was that this, zombification. Of the banks between 2008. And 2020. Led to the zombification. Of the whole of corporate capitalism. And let me give an example because i like to speak in practical, terms, right. Go back to 2009. April 2009. Barack obama is in the white house. The first g20, meeting happens. When the central bankers of the world. Gather together and they decided to act to save. Bankers. Around the world and they did this magnificently. You know the fed, bank of england, bank of japan. Swiss national bank. The central bank of sweden the european central bank they all pumped money and gave it to the bankers and they refloated them. At the same time they practiced austerity. On the many. Including, barack obama. Because obama's. So-called. Stimulus, program. Was not a stimulus program, in the end, they were you know hundreds of billion supposedly. But if you add, the austerity, of the states. The state budgets were were shrinking. If you look at both federal, governments. For the federal government's budget, and the state's government, you add up together, in the united states you had. A small amount of austerity, in europe you had a huge amount of austerity. So what does this mean i mean imagine you're. You're you know a banker. You've received all these, billions. Or trillions, for that matter, from the central banks. And you you know the worst nightmare, of a banker, is to have money that you can't lend. Right, not being able to lend the money that you have this is the nightmare, of a banker. So you look at it. And you look you look at the little people and you say i'm, not giving them money because they are suffering austerity. They won't be able to repay me. The so i'll give it to the corporations. To apple to google to volkswagen. To, general electric, to, alstom, and so on. Now, the board of directors, of these large corporations, look at, out there to the little people, at the library, and they think the same. You know if we. What's the point of investing. In new jobs and new production, lines and new products. When the little people out there won't be able to buy the stuff. So. What do they do they say okay. When, they get that telephone call from deutsche bank or from citibank. Or from jp morgan. And the banker says i've got, lots of money for you do you want to, to borrow it you say yeah okay give it to me it's cheap money it's free money. It was coming at zero interest rates so why say no to it. And what do you do with it you do not invest in good quality jobs. In green technologies. In hiring, people, you take the money and you go to wall street. And you buy back the shares of your own company. Because that way, the share price goes up. Your bonus. As a member of the board of director, ceo whatever. Of the company. Is linked to the share price. So you're doing really very well, why invest. Okay, now that's what has been happening since between 2008. And 2020.. So by 2020. By the time, that stupid piece of rna, not even dna.
Hit Humanity. This amplified. Banking system. Had zombified, the whole of the corporate world. In the united, states, in germany, in france, in britain. All these large corporations. Survived. And their share prices were really going up, all this time. Because of this drip feed, connecting. Central banks. To private banks private banks to corporations. While everybody, else. Was suffering. Austerity. So. The bubble bursts. With covet 19. Right, this huge bubble now because in 2008, the bubble was confined, within the financial, sector. In 2020. The bubble, had become gargantuan. And had engulfed the whole of the corporate sector. Even the oil industry. So kobe 19 comes like a. Pin that pricks this gigantic, bubble. And the fed, the ecb. You know they have one. Instrument. The same that they started using, since 2008. Which is to print money and they float. The you know the bubbles that burst, only this time the bubbles are much greater than they were in 2008. So the difference between 2008, and. 2020. Is not a qualitative, one in my view, it is one of scale, of course you know quantity, leads to quality as, hegel has taught, those of us who you know, hack back to, that dialectical. Tradition. Um, and now we have a situation, where. The. Increase. In the quantity of money. That. The fed the european central bank and so on. Have, decided, upon, and have injected. Into. Corporates. Is just. 10 times as large as in 2008.. So this is why you have the s p 500. Reaching its all-time, records. Because the people who play in the stock exchange in washington they don't give a damn anymore about what happens to the companies. They know, that even if general motors. Yeah thanks and nobody buys a single car. The general motors board of directors will get a huge amount of money from jp morgan, which will get a huge amount of money from the fed. So they will go into the stock exchange. And boost the share price of general motors up independently, of profits. Independent, of how many cars are sold. So this is the decoupling, that i'm talking about. Now. For how long can this last. This is a political. Question. You see, bubbles, burst. But how long does it take before the burst john maynard keynes had a fantastic, expression. He once said that, the market can stay rational. Longer. Than i can stay solvent. So you know this bubble can continue, for now 5 years 10 years 20 years who knows, but it is the politics, that matters. Because. As this. Bubble, is. Constantly, being refloated. And the decoupling. Of. Financial, markets, from, the real world. Continues. The inequality. Becomes. Just unbearable. You have people now in the united states people in britain people in greece people in germany. Who simply, you know they used to be, two paychecks, away from penury. Now they're, well, immersed, in penury. While the, good people in wall street. You know they are, thinking of what they're going to do with their, huge. Profits. At some point the politics will break the pro something we need will give. And it is in my estimation, that it will be the politics, now the politics, can give in two ways. One is a massive, boost, of what i call the nationalist, international. Or the new fascist international. Led by donald trump. Uh but also. With bolsonaro. Modi. The. Ultralight. In. In europe. Or. It will have to. Lead to a progressive. Movement which does not exist yet some of us are trying to put it together with. You may have heard of. You may have heard of the progressive international. That. Some of us are trying to. Turn into a real, worldwide. Movement. Either something like that is going to create, a genuine green you deal for the world. Not. Simply, in terms of financing. The green transition, and good quality jobs, and. A shift of wealth, from the global, north of the global south all these things are essential. But i don't think they are any longer, sufficient. We need, to, you know to become, even more ambitious. And talk about post capitalism. I, i don't want to bury the the lead of something. Pretty remarkable, you said. A few minutes ago which is that you are one of the few people who doesn't believe. 2020. Matters is what you mean by that that it doesn't. Matter the way that people think it does that it matters more as an acute, crisis. That's. Greatest. Import. Is that it's exposed, and manifest. A more generalized. Crisis, in waiting, that pre-existed, coven 19 is that is that what you're saying. Yes i think look it's i'm not saying that 2020, doesn't matter it might it matters hugely. But it is not a cool, call. If you want a discontinuity. In the history of capitalism, the way 2008. Was. 2008. Was a discontinuity. In the history of capitalism. The same way in the same way that 1929. Was. In 2008. That discontinuity. Caused, central banks and governments. To adopt the policy, of socialism, for the few, the zombification. Of corporates, and banks. And australia, for the money. And that. Bloated. Capitalism. With, unsustainable.
Debt. Zombified, the corporates. Created huge inequalities. And that's when, 2020. Came, which was a much greater crisis, than 2008. In terms of quantity. Because if you look at the you know the collapse, in gdp, for instance it's much greater in 2020, than it was in 2008. But it's a, quantitative. Shock. Compared to 2008. Which was. A historic, shift. So 2008. Was smaller, in magnitude. But more significant. In terms, of its historical. Transformation. It led, to a gigantic, battle. Bubble. Which burst. Magnificently. Now with 2020., so the. The the volume, of the, crisis, now is much greater. Yeah but the reason why it is so great is because of what happened in 2008, so future historians. I think are going to mark 2008. As the moment when capitalism. Begun. Um. To effectively. Transform, itself. In a totally unsustainable, system. And manner, and 2020. Was the, the final straw. That's really fascinating, and what's. Terrifying. About that analysis, though is that these sort. Of, post, 2008. 2020, moments. Might just keep coming. And coming what what does the economic. And political response, that you've seen to to covid. Both as a public health and economic crisis so far around the world, what does that, tell you about how, the global. The various global, elites. Might. Handle. An era, of. More pandemics. And, mass disruption. Caused by. Climate change that were that we're already experiencing. Well what i find very interesting. Since you're asking me. To comment on the way they're handling it about the politics. Yeah, the economics, is straightforward. They are just using their rule book of 2009. Uh, turbocharging. It. Through quantitative, easing they're not doing anything more than beyond that, uh of course they the furlough scheme and all those things, are just proof that. Neoliberals, never meant it when they, were. Admonishing, the state when ronald reagan was saying that you know the most terrifying, worlds in the english.
Uh Language, are, you know i come from the state and i'm here to help you, he didn't really mean it it was just an erratical. Flourish, right, um the new liberals. Always left, the state, more powerful than they found it. Except that the power of the state, that they invested. In. Was uh power in favor of the oligarchy, not of the the hoi polloi right that so neoliberalism. Is a complete hypocrisy. In the same way that marxists, were hypocrites, under the soviet union which has nothing to do with uh, socialism. Um. So, um. Yeah i mean, what i find fascinating, about. Men and women in authority. Is um. The way in which. They adapted, so quickly. To. A new situation. A situation, where, the government, is very clearly. Capable. Powerful. You remember, up until. Kobe 19 came along. Uh there were, the the conventional, wisdom. Was that, um, you know governments are not that powerful. I remember you remember, bill clinton, saying that he wants to come back, as, the bond market. Because, apparently, the arab big government is over. Yeah. So, the the the myth. Of the. Radical, center. Which dominated. Both in europe and the united states, until barack obama. The myth that you know. There's not so much the government can do, you know now we live in a world, which, you know is globalized. It's all under, the spell of economic, forces, beyond our control. What we need to do is you know cajole, them. And uh, channel them, and stroke them, and be nice to them, and you know be realistic, and not try to. To to behave as if the state can do stuff. That went, overnight. Suddenly. You know the government steps in and says okay. Uh. You can't go to a concert you can't get out of your house we are going to tell you how to breathe when to breathe, where to breathe, right, i'm not criticizing. The lockdown what i'm saying is that suddenly the government comes and tells you, what to do. At every level. Of life. It says okay. The same people who used to say that you know a tiny little increase, in. The. Budget, for education. Or the health care. Would be catastrophic. Will end, america, as we know it. Yeah suddenly, they say okay let's create 10 trillion. And they argue whether it should be 10 or 15. You know, and. They take over the labor market, and, they pay people's wages in britain. Between 80, and 100, percent of wages have been paid off by the government. The bank of england suddenly, announces that you know what don't worry, about that. We will buy the government that. Primary, market, buying. Something that had never said. You know, they were, um. Insisting, was impossible, if this ever happens then the banking system will collapse wait it happened it didn't collapse the bank system is doing really very well. There's a distinction between the us and europe, here right where like the fed. Uh. Is is acting, in in the us but a lot of the other branches of government really believe their own, propaganda. And, we. Are experiencing, a total inability, of, of congress to pass, to extend very, basic. Um. A very basic extension of unemployment. Benefits. Um thanks to. Senate republicans. You know, my fellow americans. My. Friends in america i mean, right don't sound like an american, president, but my friends, in america. Live under this touching, illusion. That europe, is so much much better the united states. Folks have got bad news. It isn't. Because. Yes i mean, the difference between, state governments in the united states and our, national. Nation state governments in the eurozone. Is that yes you have some, real, idiots, running state governments in the united states believing their own rhetoric. In europe it's worse. Because. We have nation states that have absolutely no power. You know i live in um, in a colony. Of the european central bank, it doesn't matter who is the prime minister of greece they don't have access to monetary, policy don't have access to fiscal policy. They don't even have access, to health policy. You know we have had, over, after 10 years, of stringent, austerity we've lost. Um. 25, of doctors, in the last 10 years, through immigration. In the last two years, 50. Of our medical school, graduates. Are leaving the country. Now think about that for a country like greece. That puts all this money, into educating. Doctors. But then immediately go to canada, germany. New zealand. And they, you know they they serve the, public health, service or the private health service, there. Uh. Imagine the. The waste of human capital by the greek state and there's nothing the greek state can do to hire a few more doctors here, you know as a party leader i go from hospital to hospital, and they're totally depleted. They're. You know the usual. Heroes and heroines. Doing. Remarkable, work. Some of them haven't been home for three or four days and nights.
Because There is enough staff and the greek government cannot hire anyone. So it's. The differences, between the united, states and europe, are not as great. As the liberal, imagination. In the united states would have it. The escapist, liberal imagination. Here is is vast the recurrent. Pledges, amongst, uh, the affluent liberal elite to move to canada, if x y or z happens, um. But. Let's talk about, about europe, um. Specifically, the 750. Billion, euro, post-pandemic. Eu recovery fund which you've been writing, a lot. About recently. And northern. European, governments. Hate it. Which, might lead one. To conclude. That it's a good thing, this crossing, of of what seemed to be such a, a red line. Around, the mutualization. Of of european. Debt. Seems significant. And and hopeful, to a lot of people, um, but, but not to you. Uh. Even though as you write, it is quote, the first time eu leaders seem to have acknowledged. The indispensability. Of a common, debt as the glue of any monetary. Union but you're deeply, skeptical, why. Why don't you see this as a turning point. Towards a true fiscal union and instead you see it and instead see it as. The next step towards, the obliteration, of the eu. Okay. Allow me to answer. By, recasting. This agreement. Eu agreement. In u.s terms. Imagine, you lived in in the united states. In which there was no federal government. No federal treasury. But there was a fed. Which was not allowed, to. Bail out arizona. Or missouri. Right, or the banks of arizona, for that matter. Imagine, further. That, you know in 2008. The great, state of nevada. Which is more or less the same size as ireland, in terms of population. Also, a state based, on. Low, corporate taxation. On. A lot of. The construction. Right. Nevada, and ireland similar, not in weather not in. Culture, but at least, in these. Financial, and economic terms right imagine, if the great state of nevada, when everything collapsed in 2008. When real estate went to the dogs when banks went to the dogs. Imagine if the the governor of nevada. Had to borrow in the international, markets to bail out the banks of nevada. And to pay for the unemployment, benefits, of the construction, workers. In las vegas and wherever it is that they are building stuff. Okay then immediately what will happen is of course, the state of nevada would be bankrupt. And, if um. The the, then the governor of nevada, had to go to the. To the international monetary fund. And, get. A loan from the imf. On conditions, of austerity. That slash. Wages. Slash. Pensions in nevada. Then that would drive half of the nevadans, out of nevada. And. You know the state would be even more bankrupt. Okay this is what happened between 2010. And 2020. In europe. Because, you know what i described, now. Is very much the way in which the eurozone. The european. Union's, monetary. Area common area, where the euro is the currency. Functions. Imagine that 10 years afterwards, or 12 years after us you know kobe 19 comes to this kind of the united states. And the great and the good leaders of the states get together, and. Agree that. It's time that we had. Common debt. And that we transfer some money between ourselves. But imagine that, instead of the seven, eight nine percent of gdp. Which the federal government. That you now have. Is uh. Using as a fiscal stimulus. They agreed on a 0.7. No not 7, 0.7. The first thing you'd say is guys too little too late. First, secondly. Even worse than that. Even worse. Imagine, if the agreement was the following. The. Governors of the states. Would sit around a very. Large, oval, table. And they would come to an agreement. On. Raising a common debt. Common debt. They claimed it 750. Billion but when we looked at the numbers it was 310. Which is again, much smaller. But as than advertised, but besides that besides that. And they agreed, in advance, how they would allocate this money, how much arizona would, get. How much missouri would get how much oklahoma, would get. Before you know. What the impact of covet 19 is. Both on the health services. And the economies. Of this country or country states. And new york. State, and california. Which are donors, because they are richer. Would have to agree. On how much debt to take on. On behalf of missouri. Right. Before having the data. You know what if the governor, of california. Or the of new york state said. Sorry mate. I'm not agreeing with this. I would not necessarily. Take shots of them. You know similarly. When. The dutch prime minister. Who is not microsofty. And he's not on the same. Um, side, of the political spectrum as i am you can imagine that that's an understatement. But everyone does have some sympathy for him when he says. Don't talk to me about, solidarity. You know because if if you if the italians, and the greeks won't solidarity. From me. Okay i will reach into my pocket to find what money i have and i'll give it to you that's what solidarity, means. From my savings i'll give you some money.
But Solidarity. Does not. Impose upon me, the moral duty, to go into a bank together with you and get out a joint loan. That's not what solidarity, asks me to do. So you know. Piss off, excuse the french, i don't know what it is in dutch right. Again i agree with him. Because the issue is not solidarity. The issue is common sense. You see the beauty. Of a federal, system. Of a genuine, fiscal union. Is that. It is automated. That the fiscal stimulus, is automated. At least, its first stage. So, in 2008. Going back to my nevada, versus ireland. Example. You know. The governor of nevada didn't have to negotiate, with anyone. What happened is automatically, the fdic. The fed. Took over, the failed banks of nevada. Sold some of them closed some of them, you know merged others. Refloated. Or bailed out, the remainder. The state of nevada had nothing to do with that. It didn't pay for it the nevadans, didn't pay for it it was a fed that they did that, as for the employment, benefits, and you know medicare, and social security. Those were paid automatically. By californians. Or new yorkers. But without. Any, political, huggling. Of who gets what. And who, borrows, in order to lend to somebody else. Because if you had that process of political haggling, in the united states, i can tell you, the united states would enter a new civil war that would have made the 1860s. Version look like, you know a walk in the in the garden. So. You will excuse me i'm not going to celebrate, these kinds of ridiculous, agreements by the eu, especially, when they not don't discuss the elephant in the room. Which is what, you know they. Okay they've agreed, to, share 310. Misery, billions. 0.65. Of gdp. Nothing. Yeah it's not even, worth. Talking about it from a macroeconomic. Point of view. But, while we've been having these discussions, about an insignificant, amount, that is going to be delivered. By means of a formula. That effectively, divides the continent, they're not talking about, the real threat, you know we have a tsunami, coming our way and everybody's ignoring it that's the, the tsunami in the room or the elephant even and that's austerity. Because you know next year. The greek government italian government, the spanish government will have to balance their budgets.
Because Like in the united states where the states must balance their budgets, we have a similarly, stupid rule here. Right. What does this mean it means you know, my our government here is going to end same in italy, we're going to have a budget deficit of 15, of gdp. To go from minus 15 to zero. You need austerity of at least at least 10. Cuts. Pension cards wage cuts you know reductions, in investment. In the health service of 10 of gdp. So that's going to be like you know the, the time when hopefully in 2021. The greeks the spaniards the italians, the the germans. Are going. Are going to be, raising, themselves. From this mire, of covet 19 induced, recession. And then what will happen, a huge hammer sledgehammer, is going to hit them, of austerity, coming from the silly fiscal rules. So. No this is another dereliction. Of duty by the european, union, my message to my friends in america. Is stop celebrating, europe. As the way forward it is not. You have a huge mess in the united states, but so do we. I'm uh i'm being pushed to go to audience, uh. Questions but i'm going rogue and asking you one. One more of my own. On this on this subject. You wrote recently, quote. It is against this backdrop, of high and rising inequality. That the mood of the german public, must be understood. In particular. Resistance. In particular, popular, resistance, to the idea. Of a eurozone. Fiscal, union. German workers. Who are increasingly, struggling, to make ends meet. Understandably. Refuse, to endorse the idea. Of huge amounts of money. Being constantly, channeled to citizens, of other countries. This reminds me of the situation, in the u.s, where, where wage stagnations. Decades of wage stagnations. For workers, across the board have created this fertile environment. For attacks on public sector unions, and welfare recipients, and anyone considered to be free riders. Or moochers. So my question is, before we move on to audience questions. How. Can the left confront, this, by linking up, international. Redistributionist. Politics. In in the european, context. To, to. Domestic. Internal. Redistributionist. Politics. So that workers, in one european, country aren't pitted. Against workers in the other, because. That's currently, quite the opposite, of the way that things are functioning when neoliberalism. Runs into nationalism. You mentioned, kindly. The party that i lead in the greek parliament, mera 25.. Now. What is unique about merit25, is it belongs. Completely belongs it's not affiliated, to it belongs. To a pan-european. Movement, which, is called dm-25, diem and mera mean the same thing in latin and in greek. And, we made the point of this, of starting that movement, in berlin. In february of 2016. To signify, what this is not a clash between the north of the south. Between the germans and the greeks the italians of the dutch. This is a, clash between the oligarchy. Sons, without frontiers. And knowledge, which, are greek the germans they love each other they are very solidistic. One towards, one another, as you know. They are the enemy. And they are the enemy of the greeks the germans the dutch, workers. You know, the. The hoi polloi, of, our different countries. And the point i made in the article in the guardian, that, again you kindly. Read out. Is that. This idea. That. Germany. Is going to be borrowing money to be giving to greece, is abhorrent, from a left-wing, progressive, position because. I don't want the holy grail the greek oligarchy to get a single, penny.
Raised By german workers. In the international money markets. Why should a greek oligarchy be given money by german workers and united german workers, are going to be. Taking on their shoulders, this extra german debt, it's not going to be the german oligarchy, because they have cayman, islands accounts that they don't pay anything. And that is not a good. Foundation, for, solidarity, we want solidarity. Yeah together with our german comrades, that belong to the same. Pan-european, transnational, movement dm25. We have a party in germany. We have a party in greece we have a party in france and so on, uh what we are trying to educate. The german workers and the greek workers. And the dutch workers, and the darling workers, is that what really matt. What is of the essence today. Is to have a fiscal union such that. The rich, families. Of the greeks the germans the dutch and so on, subsidize. The poor families, in every country. Not the rich countries the poor countries. And i think, once you start saying this to people. Even people in germany and that will hear you know greece no they are all lazy. Gits, you know, um, playing the bouzouki. Under the sun. Suddenly they realize that you have a point, and it is the only way of building international, solidarity. Um. I'm going to move on to audience, questions. Uh, first there i have two related, questions. From, stephen, j cleese. Um, and, john. Wahaskee. And i apologize. If i'm butchering. The pronunciation, of anyone's name. Um. What happens, when we terminate. Labor markets like you called for earlier. What's, what's the alternative. And. Secondly, do you view your prescription. Of of the term for the termination, of labor markets. And. Markets, as. The second question is not idiomatic. So i'm going to just. What happens when we terminate labor markets. Okay. Well the only way to terminate, labor markets. Is if you can imagine. A world, in which. Shares, operate, like library, cards. In universities. In colleges. So when you enter a college right, you're given a library card at registration. It gives you rights. You can borrow books you can, it acts as an id. You don't buy it and you certainly can't sell it and you can't rent it. To anyone. So imagine. That. Shares operated. Like, library, cards, you get hired by a corporation. And you given one share. That gives you one vote. For every decision made by the firm. Uh it doesn't mean that everybody is equal, in terms of pay. Because you can design, wonderful. Bonus, payment systems, where the majority, decides. An algorithm, by which.
Some People who, whom the rest of the corporation. Believe, are contributing, more to the corporation. Get, much more. Much better rewarded, than, everybody else there is a basic income for everyone and on top of that you can have very large bonuses. And. You know when you leave the company you take that share with you. And you take the capital, that has accrued. To you and then. You move to another company either you create one. Um. On your own could be a single person company, or you can. Come together with others create a new company everybody, chips in their shares, but then everybody has one vote, in that, new company. Um. And um. Or you move to another corporation, another corporation, hires you. That. That's the way to end the share market, the share market and the labor market at once. Because, suddenly there's no share market like there's no library, card market. And there's no labor market, because suddenly. Everybody's, a partner, in the corporation, to which, they contribute, their labor. Um, i, i apologize, for maligning, the second question it was because i was uh just getting this on my phone and misread. Share, as a as a verb. When it was as a noun so if i will read that question now, which is a good follow-up to that do you view your prescription, for the termination. Of labor markets, and share markets, as specific. To advanced capitalist, economies. Such as japan or the us. Or. Broadly, applicable, across the world. I think it's broadly applicable to the whole world but the way that it will be applied will have to, cater, for different social conventions, by the way it's not in order to improve capitalism, in order to support capital not, transcend, capitalism, because capitalism. Is a, it's not defined, by, markets. Every. Society, in the history of the world. Had, markets. What makes capitalism, capitalism. Is the co-modification. Of labor. The fact that there is a labor market. And the fact that there is, a capital market. That, is what differentiates, capitalism, from feudalism, from slave ownership. And so on. And it is what is going to, differentiate. From post capitalism. The world in which i just very very briefly described. But i've been doing a lot of thinking about. This, over the last couple of years. What i call post-capitalism. The world. That i'm describing, doesn't have a labor market in it. Uh it has labor. It has markets. It doesn't have labor markets. Um. From mark forlenza. And this is a spicy, one. Does, modern monetary. Theory. Extend. The size and life of the bubble. Or does it help. Control the damage. Caused, by its bursting. When. Mmt. Is the theory it's not a policy. Which means that it, it depends on how you use it it's like an instrument. That. How you use an instrument. Um, is going to determine. The result. It is a very useful instrument for the united states. Effectively, what it says is that, um. Money is crea. It acknowledges, that money is created out of thin air. Which is fine. Don't panic about it, you know overcome. The delusion, that money should be a commodity. Like gold, or stones, or salt. Or you know. A piece of, a string of zeros and ones as in bitcoin. It's fine that we conjure up money. The question is. How do we use the money that we conjure up, do we use it in order to give it to the bankers, to give it to the corporates.
Who Already have a lot of money stashed away. So that they can buy back their own shares. And create a greater inequality. And, destroy, the opportunity of humanity, to, combat. Social, crisis, as well as as climate change. Do you want to use it this way this is because you know. Financialized. Capitalism. Is very respectful, of mmd. They, they shown they have no compunction. In printing loads of money when it suits the oligarchy. What m tears however say, like people you know my friends, stephanie kelton and others is that, in a place like the united states. Where. You have a central bank controlling. The, production, of. Public money the dollar. And where. Debt is denominated. In that currency, not in a foreign currency. Then you can, you know you can print, as much money as you want in order to create jobs. And you can provide a job guarantee. For all americans. And then there will be no inflation, if, the the jobs that you create this way. Push out goods and services. So that, the quantity of money goes up but so does the quantity, of goods and services, so the balance between money, and, goods. Is not disturbed. But you have a lot more goods and a lot more services and a lot more welfare. And well-being. So, it. It's it's a theory. It's a question of how, we. Press it into practice. A follow a brief follow-up on that, to what extent. Is. Mn, mmt's, application, peculiar, to the united states given the unique, global position of the dollar. Well it is pretty, um. Peculiar, to the united states. The exorbitant, power of the dollar, helps, mmt. Gives you a lot more room for maneuver, as it does today. But primarily. What makes a difference, is what currency, is your debt denominated. In. So all american, debt is denominated. In dollars, so there's no way americans, can go bankrupt. Because you control the currency, in which you owe money, so you know, there's no reason why you should ever go bankrupt. Unless you choose to right. Unless donald trump says i'm not paying off, the bonds that the treasury bills that the chinese have purchased but that's a political decision it's not because you have to, but if you're a turkey. Or greece for that matter, coming to you know my neck of the woods here. Greece does not control its currency. We have the euro the euro is not controlled by the great government, or by a greek central bank, it's like a foreign currency. All our debt is in euros. So we can't print it, same with turkey turkey has its own currency. But most of its, debt is in euros and dollars. So. Um, it doesn't help. To pump up, the, quantity, of terrorist leader. When. You know your uh. Your lenders, come, asking for euros and dollars. The same would apply to argentina's. Situation, right now yeah, exactly exactly the same thing. Um, this is from. Uh. Music, one two three. Okay music one two three. If private property, and commodification. Of land, are the root of the debt problem, which is important. In the context, of u.s colonialism. By which i think they're referring to settler colonialism, in the us. How does our relationship. To land. Have to change. Post-capitalism. That's a very difficult, and good. Question. Here is a very quick. Um. And you know dirty, answer. How about every county. Um. Splitting, the land between two zones. One, is a commercial, zone, and another is a social zone. You use, uh on a democratic, basis you make decisions, about, how you're going to utilize, the commercial, zone in order to, create, rents. Which you then invest into the social zone. The whole land remains, public. But. The use of land. Tenure, is granted, in both the commercial, zone. To those who can afford it. And, for free. Within the social zone. So this is an example of how you could democratize. Land, because unless we do. We are allowing the worst kind of monopoly. Monopoly, that even liberals. Disdained. Over, decades, and centuries. To. Maintain, a grip.
Over The distribution. Of wealth. Here is the last. The last question. Which comes from. Ian soroka. And again apologies, to, everyone whose name i'm likely. Butchering. Without, power we cannot institute, economic, policy. That seems true to me. Can you speak, to the immediate, historical, horizon. Where our political, choices. In the u.s do not reflect. The developing, struggles. In. The street, and just to ad-lib, to expand, on on this question. Where we have, are going to, shortly. Ostensibly. Be seeing. Presidential, debates. Between. Joe biden, and donald trump. During a period. Uh the same year where we've seen the largest. Mass protests, in u.s history. Demanding, a very different, sort of direction, for the country. Well in the same way that, the financial, sector is decoupled, from capitalism. Democratic, politics. Dominant. Establishment, democratic, politics. Um. Have. Decoupled. From. Social movements, from uh. The public's, perception. Of what's going on. The. Uh, presidential, debates that you're going to be facing soon are going to be. Soul destroying. Here you have, joe biden. Who, has never failed, to be on the wrong side, of important, decisions. Over the last decades. Financialization. War. Rejection. Of medicare, for all. Every, single. Important debate. Where. Public opinion has shifted, markedly, in the united states. Joe biden has been on the wrong side of. And he, is the only hope. And he is the only hope. Against, the misanthrope