Webinar recording: Branding in corporate learning: why does differentiation matter?
It's. My term to. Formally. Get. Things started so thanks, all for turning, up today for, our webinar on. Branding. In corporate, learning I'm, Marcin, cousins I'm going to be your host and we've got John Elmore, with us as you, will, see, we've. Got our. Microphones. Off so, we'll just do everything in chat and. Let's. Let me just. Go. Through a couple of housekeeping things. Hopefully. You found the chat and also. Can. You if you are if you're answering can, you or. Have anything to say can, you just make sure I get to everyone, because in previous webinars sometimes. We just the. Comment. Has gone to just the panel. So. John. Will, introduce himself in a minute but he's got, lots of experience around. Marketing. Communication. And brand, so. This, is really an opportunity to pick his brains as well as to kind, of hear what he has to say on the subject. But. That's how we're going to use chat, so hopefully you've all found that. So. I'm going to quickly ask John just to give us a couple of minutes of who. You, are. Who. Am I good, question well, I've been 20, years in learning, technologies, I, realized. Recently had a counter. And was quite shot but. Altogether 30 years, in marketing, started. Off my marketing career in, a West End advertising, agency, Young. & Rubicam. And. I've done bits of PR, but, mostly, been heads, of marketing, jobs for. Learning. Vendor companies. And. Then, a lot of consultancy. Which kind, of evolved both, sides of the fence but again mostly mostly vendor. So. I see, my job increasingly. Over the last, 10. Years or so in. Talking. To both sides, both. Workplace. Learning professionals. And vendor. Organizations, and trying to get the two sides to understand, each other. Through. River what's grandly, called, thought leadership white papers. Think-tank. Dinner events, discussion, forums, workshops, and. Organizing. Events conferences and, at one point editing, a magazine and, now on. The podcast I just launched my podcast, this week which I will plug, I'm afraid, relentlessly, later. So. That's, me okay. So. Great to have you here John. And with all that experience I'm I'm sure you're going to provide some very. Useful insight, for everyone. Before. We get into it I would, just like. To ask. Everyone. What would make this a successful, webinar. For you. Put. That into the chat so. That the, aim of that question is to hopefully. Give you what you need today and also, potentially, to keep John on. The straight and narrow so. If. You, have got some answers for us let's see. Give. You a couple minutes what. Would make this work for you. Where. Is everyone, we're, gonna say anything. Perhaps. They're happy with the initial brief, you've already given there Martin I. I'm. Happy to progress, on on, that assumption so, what I'm going to do is, I am going to. Remove. My. Odd. Video. So. Now, you should only. See, John. And we. Are going to crack. On so, John over to you. Thank You Martin. So. First of all I'd like to think back to the first school you attended. And. I'd, like you to ask. Yourself, this question if you could advance the slide Martin. Think. About those, lovely. School photos we, all. Took back from school or if you're a parent you now get back very much in the similar kind of form but think back to the first school you attended, see, how many of your classmates, you can bring to mind now this is interesting for me because I attended, a, reunion. At the weekend with a load, of people I've been at secondary school with I think, that's a primary, school and even. At that reunion I'll show you those couple of people there I just didn't. Know from Adam just couldn't, remember them at all do. I think that's my primary school which now is going to Blake vanishingly, long ago I'm sorry to say there's. Not many people I can remember though. Martin if I asked you the question how. Many. People could you remember from your primary school. Probably. About half a dozen on I'm, lucky, in the fact that two. Of my. Closest. Friends are from, primary, school so, we just stayed. In touch but, actually there, are two or three that really stand out for different reasons, but apart from that I probably couldn't. Yeah. It's a little bit vague so, I would reckon about half a dozen people yeah. I think, it's probably the same for most people and. It'll. Be small numbers I mean some people have that kind of weird. Memory where they remember every single person every single name but you know that's quite unusual what. You tend to find is that people remember, like the class clown the, person who every looks they told jokes and disrupted, everything or maybe the class bully the person who took their. Pocket. Money off them or someone whose parents were incredibly rich, richer, than everybody else's or somebody who just seemed to be a lot poorer than anybody else and I'm fortunate.
Sort. Of people you might remember the first friend you made or, you might remember the friend you had to say goodbye to on, the last day of school which happened to me because their parents were emigrating to Australia. In, each case there, is an effective, trigger that, has made them stick in your memory and it's. Probably, going, to be something like this it's, simple. With the class clown you kind of boiled that person down to just one attribute. You. Know he or she made, me laugh or they, just disrupted. Things it was a simple, it was a simple thing you know if it was the person with the outrageous, quiff or whatever or. It was something extreme, is a set, extremes of wealth. Or poverty, or. Somebody. Who is physically, very different, in, my case had sticky-out, ears so. People. Tend to remember that funny, name so people got me helmet. There, was something singular, about that, person, you know the person who'd been homeschooled. And arrived two. Years later than everybody else or, that's the first person you person, you met or the last person you you may and these are all kind of effective triggers that that, stick people in our minds and. Brands. Are like this, brands. Stick in your mind because. You've got some sort of effective, relationship. With them no effective relationship. It's. Kind of a nice psychological. Way of basically saying. That, you, have some kind of emotional, feeling. Towards. Them so if I say the word Trump. Some people might. Swing. Their mega badges, around and, clench, their fists in the air and other people might feel. A bit sick of the stomach but all, these brands like Amazon, Apple Ferrari. Nike. The BBC. McDonald's. The Beatles the Klu Klux Klan, when, someone says those names the chances, are you get a little flash of some trace emotion, every time positive. Or negative it is enough to be a big thing that. Something fires, off in your brain when, when when you hear that word, and. That little flash of feeling what's it about well. One thing it's not about is, design, the brand is not the logo we say this again and again and again but it's. It's, very important. So. When you're driving along the. Motorway. And you see the golden arches, come, up you might salivate. Like some Pavlovian, dog or feels. Stick to your stomach or feel angry about the deforestation, of the Amazon it's. Not down to that particular shade of yellow or even because, the shape of the logo makes, you think of your mama if we can go to the next slide. I've been some interesting. Articles, recently. About. That design. It's. Not a design thing the logo reminds, you of experiences. You've had with that brand in the past and the way it's made you feel, because. ESPE. Glue I've, heard of redneck. Shackleton Jones's, book will. Realize, it's we don't remember facts or information we remember how we felt about those things and brand. Very much participates. In that logic. So. The logo stands for the brand it, points to the brand but it isn't the brand so, that's case what is the brand so, I'm going to give you a couple of definitions now. One. From a. Historical. Brand guru David, Ogilvy who, founded. The agency Ogilvy & Mather which was the deathly. Competitor, to the one that I did, my marketing, apprenticeship. So to speak in. And. He said you know to decide, what image you want for your brand image means personality. Products, like people are personalities, and they can make or break them in the marketplace, and, now if we're going to give somebody, a bit more up-to-date Seth, Godin, it's really over own age he, says this people. Don't like goods and services, they buy relations, stories.
And Magic, and to. Me they're essentially. Saying basically. The same thing although it's expressed. In different terms that our brand as a, personality, a brand is. A. Kind. Of a fictional character something. That has a attributes, of a person in the way that they it affects us but, it's not a person, it's you. Know let's. Drop it's. It's. A company and there. Is a relationship, and a personality, so, it's, a slightly mysterious. Thing. That. So, how, do you work with that how do you. How. Does this information help if you're actually working with, brands if you want to create one or if you want to maintain one, or, indeed if you want to reanimate a tie. Brand which hopin happens, well. I think you're going to look at brand in two basic ways. It. It's complicated, stuff but this is simplifying, it if you look from the inside out and. From the outside in I want. To start with the outside in, because, one. Of the things you're always trying to do with brand is to put yourself in the shoes of. Your. Target, decision-maker or the person who, encounters. Your brand so if you look at it from the outside in. Important. Thing here is in marketing people talk about touch points. But. More recently it's become common to talk about moments, of truth. So. Each of these touch points which, could be a, deputy, you see, a poster, you see a billboard and advert. In. Terms of a b2b brand which, most been learning. Vender brands are you. Might go to an exhibition and see an exhibition stand, you might talk to a salesperson, it, might give you a business card. You. Might get a squeezy. Stress ball from them. Or. USB. Drive or, something like they see each, of these as a touch point and moments. Of truth says, that where these things. Are in anyway, transactional. That. As an important, point in a. Person's journey. Relationship. With, the brand so say for instance we download a white paper. Because. You're interested in, something. Like learn. Experience papers, or whatever. What's. Your experience, like, when you do that how, well does the work and how quickly does website load. What. How, easy is the experience, for you how, much does what you get live up to the promise that's, a moment of truth that's a moment where you establish. The truth about this person, you know is it kind of lower liar pants on fire that wasn't, what I was expecting to, get and now I've gotten those as spam or. Is it yeah. That took me seconds, it solved a problem for, me I like. This company, I feel, I want to give them a bit more, attention. Now, there's also a thing which is this. Peculiar. Word on the slide here Z mots which is the zero moment of truth this is something that came in with that, the Google, talks about their, digital, learning, for, digital, marketing people. And. It's to do with the world we live in now where. Something. Like. 80. Percent of our experience, with the brand we have before they, even know that we're thinking about them so you, might, be searching for the examples that Seth, Godin gives these you. Know you're, so. You're a, supplier. On fishing. Tackle, and somebody is searching for bass. Well. They might be searching for bass they, might be searching for bass, they, might be a musician but then, if they say. They. Start searching for bass, fishing that, brings them a bit closer to you and. If they save equipment. For searchable equipment, for bass, fishing then suddenly they're within your funnel, as marketers, call, it they're, getting, to be in your target market but, still you haven't had any encounter, with them so, what so what, ZMOT, says is that you your brand has to be there in the zero moment of truth before. You even know that they're starting to think about contacting. You and. Increasingly. This is the focus of a lot of marketing, it is to be there so, to relate, this to learning, a lot. Of people now talk about are using bots to, drive people to their LMS or to their lxp. And. There's a lot of integral talk of integration, with BOTS, with, Platt.
Ones Like slack. Or. With, SharePoint. Or Microsoft. Teens so. The idea of that is people wanting, to be where the learners, are, and. This is a zero moment of truth so before they've even decided, to contact the learning department, before you even know about it there's. A potential that they're expressing a desire and. Intent, to. Learn something, and and, that's the zero moment, of truth so that kind of relates how. And can, work. You know in a learning context. So. Casa. Brown getting transmitted. If. You're ever wondering why marketing, people are such control, freaks it's because these moments of truth and touchpoints happen, at so many different places with, an organization, like you someone you meet and so, much that this is out of control of marketing, people, because. It's the job of marketing to make sure that every one of these little moments of truth goes well, the. Truth is that there's an awful lot going on in most organizations that, marketing doesn't have much control over and, it drives them mad and the situation, is getting worse and, worse year on year we, used to say the organization was an iceberg. You. Know nine tenths or eight ninths of its underwater and, the, bit that actually people see is they're relatively tiny, proportion of that and what. Happened in the old days was there was a little trap door between the lobed of the iceberg, and the upper bit of the iceberg, and. Marketing, controlled that it controlled what came through into, public. View but, nowadays have been move on to the next slide. We're. In the horrible. Situation. For, a control-freak. Marketing. Person that, the bottom, end of the iceberg, is almost, more visible, because everybody, in your organization. Whoever. They are however engaged, or disaffected, is, tweeting. They're on Facebook they're on Instagram. Everybody. Is a publisher, and, the whole of your organization. Is publishing, and it's extraordinarily, difficult to, control, that you know the marketing person can't go around to everybody's. Desk look over their shoulder and see who they're what, they're tweeting about on Facebook, what. They're putting on Glassdoor and, so on so.
How. Do you control that position. Well. The answer is that you, can't really but, you. Have to look at and this is where it comes in that you have to look at brand from an, inside-out. Perspective. So. Everybody, in your organization, has. To be reflecting. The brand so, in order to do that they've got to live, the brand so in order to do that we've got to know what the brand is about. And the important, core, of that is purpose. As an organization. Even, as a small organization you have to know what you're for and who you are for, who. Is your target decision, maker are you. For. Learning. And development. Managers. Learning development directors, HR, directors, this. Is standard marketing stuff everybody spends a lot of time kind of doing. Personas, and working out who their decision-maker is the, next step beyond that is, what. Can you offer these people in terms of value and. Benefits, and. How. Do they experience those and and and how, do they have, heard of those things mattered to them so, everybody in the your organization, has to know what that purpose is and. They also have to know what your values are and. If you wonder why there have been so many of these kind of initiatives. Within organizations, over the last ten years or so it's. Because of the bottom, end of the iceberg situation. But Martin can't control everything the. Only way you can do it is to make sure that everybody, is speaking and living the brand and it really does make a difference when you're going to walk, into a lot of organizations, so I'll tell you some of. Them everybody, that talks to me reflects, that brand, and, in others almost nobody does and. It's really stark that difference, so. Our purpose is kind of who you're for what you can do for, them what the main value is, values. Is in. A way is a slightly different, thing it's you, know we'll. Do anything you as a company but there are some things some things that we won't do so this is kind of the meatloaf moment. I would, do anything for love but I won't do that and if we can move on to the next slide, here. He. Is in all his glory. So. Are you an ethical, firm are, you a Marmite, brand ie we accept not everyone's going to like us but those that do, like us will love us I mean. Your values, is where you differentiate. From mothers it's not about it's, about negatives, as much as these about positives, with this, we're not that I would do anything for, to. Make a buck but, I won't do that. So. Differentiation. Is absolutely, key in marketing, and. Purpose. And values, is what, you differentiate about, there's, been a ton written about differentiation. How important, it is so. I'm not going to go on too much about it I just want to point out some, of the dangers of not differentiating. Clearly. This slide there are a million other brands out there jostling. For attention, if, you're. Learning. Vendor. Company you're, in there somewhere but we can hardly see you the guys I look around a couple, that I've worked for what kind of stand up a couple, of them stand, out couple. Defunct. That's only because I know them, there. Is a danger, with any brand that it kind of disappears. Into this background as far as their that, the buyer is concerned, there are millions of brands out there just in for your attention, and. In the, particular field of learning, there, are hundreds.
Perhaps Even thousands, there, there's nothing inherently, memorable. About yours. There's, nothing distinctive, it'll. Disappear, into the pack and, that's the difference between the star up on between. Being the star up there on the stage the main attraction, mister, meatloaf or just. Being another face, in the crowd. Crowd. Being on the next, slide Martin. So. Well different treated brands with a strong personality, of a real pull for the people who respond, to that personality, and, it doesn't know to be everyone remember, like Marmite just the people who really like need that stuff but. Bland generic brands. Don't, and. Trying to appeal to everybody, can make you bland and generic. And. The point about this really is that pushing, marketing, costs a lot more than pull, if, you have the pull if you have a charismatic brand, people basically, will come to you they'll visit the Apple Store they'll go to the Nike shop I'll go to your web sites they'll. Go build they'll come along at this time of year to see what Apple. Is launching, in terms of the new phones and so on because, that brand has, pull if. You're not in that position as a brand you're constantly. Out there, pushing information. That people trying, to sell to them and you're. The pushing and the pushing goes on they are today, and you have to keep it up, because. As soon as you start pushing the sales drop off there's, no inherent pull, to you so so. Pushing. Marketing, costs a lot more than pulled. So. If your brand is dull and uninspiring it's, basically it cost you a lot more money or a lot more time and attention to, get any traction and. You'll have to do that on a daily weekly monthly basis. I just. Let's give an example here, of a, website, design, project, that I was involved in to kind of bring down to practical level and I'd. Have, to say that I didn't have any responsibility, for this I was. There as a. Part. Of a large. Corporate, I was. Representing one business unit and the, least important. Business. Unit and there. Are a lot of very kind, of powerful people with big sales targets, and. Achievements. Around. The room in this boardroom and. People. Were flushing up slides, screen. Grabs of competitor. Websites, on. The, screen and saying. Well, what do we like about this one what do we don't like about it do we like this functionality, or like that little, bit there where the movie, comes up or like the parallel. Scrolling, on that website where, they were doing this with. The aim of deciding, what. Our. Corporate, website was going to look like, everyone. In the group that's going to have to use. So. When they'd come to a decision about about. This what they liked what they didn't like they then kind of boil that down and, turned it into a brief for, a big expensive. Web. Design company based in the States, we. Spent months and months developing a site thousands. And thousands of dollars tens of thousands of dollars in, the end nobody, liked and. Was. Practically, unusable from, the point of view of my business, unit so. What we did is refused to participate, in it went off and built, our own with a very, good web development company around, the corner cost, us about 10 gram she's kind of peanuts, by.
Web Design standards and. Everybody. Loved it and then after about a year the, rest of the organization, was coming to us and saying well you know how did you do this could. You do something like this for us possibly. Because. We hate our website nobody likes it the clients don't like it with, the bodies, leg really got the the. The the process the wrong way around there then fast about place so to speak, they. Looked at the competitors, first before, they, looked while, their punter was actually wanted. So. I've. Got to give a kind of. Obverse. Exam. To that by talking about a brand. Development program that I was involved. In, let. Me go to the next slide this was. A. Product, called me time, I. Had. The responsibility for creating this in a very short time. Span, and. It, was a very tough brief, the. Brief from our bold and fearless. Business. Unit leader whose, favorite, word was disruption. Was to create a brand that was for the learner not, for the LNG person, a consumer-grade. Brand, experience. With. No compromise. Because. What we identified, was that in a lot of learning brands there is a three-cornered, fight between the, learner the. Vendor. On designer, and the. Learning, and development. Person, and what happens is you. Know that sense of purpose gets slightly confused, because, you. Say well who's the person is going to sign. A checkbook at the end of the day well it's the head of L&D, or, its head of HR HR. So. That is the person that we're going to design for what. You end up with is basically, an. Administration. Design, and design made for an administrator, I mean, what the poor learner who has to actually use this stuff is, kind. Of very. Low down on the pecking order when, it comes to making those decisions so with, this we thought just as an experiment, let's kind, of get out of that sweet corn of flight let's cruise something, that is particularly. For the learner so, what we did is we we went and talked to a load of them and, we come up with this name me time because it was supposed to be a self-directed learners, and we'd written a few white papers, about it and one of them is called me time but which I wrote which, is why we use, that name and, we didn't ask. These. People employees, of companies. We. Didn't ask them anything, about learning, or learning and, development, or LMSs we just asked them about me time so what does me time mean, to you and. The answers that came back were really. Fascinating. And counterintuitive. In, a way and, they were saying saying. Things like what. They really, I mean you know they talked about things like work I like going on Tough Mudder races. Or. Jogging, or sailing. Or you, know taking the dogs for a walk whatever but, they also said what I really love is a project but I can pursue, and just. Do that not. Thinking about anything else you. Know not have to answer, emails in the middle of it I'll be called away to a meeting, or, or. Even, to be called a way to do the washing-up. At home just. The idea of being able to focus on one thing for. 2-3 hours at a time is. The biggest luxury because, I never get that in life and, that's. Spontaneously. Without even bringing up the idea, of learning I thought, it was really interesting to us, and loads, and loads and loads of other insights.
Came Out of it which I can't list because I no, longer work in this brand and you know don't have the eyepiece I can't show you all the slides in the in. The Jeff Brown book cause I'm not sure I'd love to, but. Out. Of this we, we. Constructed, a brand, that, when you would appeal to these people, and we had a lot of lifestyle, photography. And. We tested it continually. On on the user's on, people. In this lunar position so you know what do you think this is this really liked you does that would this turn you off over this turn you on. And. Basically. That was how. We built the brand and that's, complete the other way around I think from, what's, happening in that room when people looking at their, competitors lives because we competition, but what, we realize in the end we didn't have any competition because nobody, else built a brand like this and. When, we launched the product one, analyst. In, this journalist, told us off the bat this, is the only piece of innovation. He'd seen in, the, learning technologies, area for the last five. Years, I don't we couldn't make him go on the record about that but um, there. You go so it was a very successful, initiative, as. I say I no. Longer work there so. That. Some. Think. Brings me to a point where it'd be good to take some questions got, me in the chats. John. Can I am. Just. Start, with a question because. We yeah. It. Was just about this. Differentiation. Right, you, put out a big slide a. Slight. Of many, many logos, on it and. If. One. Goes to learning technologies, it's it's, a bun fight you know there's a massive pool with hundreds of. Suppliers. What. Is it I mean, he talks about you. Know being out of pull people, to your brand. If. I'm sitting here and I'm, one of those people in that room. What. Do I have to do what. Will the sort of steps I have to take to start getting. Noticed, and and, really, standing, out from the crowd. Well. So interesting. That. It's reaching to help you bring up there because I work. For a company I'll, go LMS and the. MD, said I'm not going to go to learning. Technologies, because I'm just one and a million logos. There. I'm. Just not going to go so so we can't not go because that's January everybody, carry off every everybody goes to that show and they they kind, of gather a lot of information and, knowledge that they'll use throughout, the year they're, buying decisions, you can't not be there so, what we decided to do in the end was to we, heard a little hotel over the road from the venue and we, started something called the learning lounge and. Invited, people to that. And, said look don't, go to that horribly, uncomfortable place. Where there's no it's sit down and you can't get a decent cup of coffee company, said hotel have nice stuff to eat and drink a comfortable. Place to sit down and a sofa in a chair, we'll, show you some maybe, VR demos and things like that that that you can do but in a less frantic. Kind, of context. And. People. Really loved it I think, the first year we had about 40 people and then the, next year we did it bigger and better added, our own conference, and doubled. Those numbers, more, than doubled those numbers and. Then the year after that we've got an even bigger venue, and we added extra bells, and whistles and experience, zone blah blah blah so we started iteratively, built it up, and, and, it worked fantastically, well and. What we've done there is completely. Refusing, to do what everybody else did, you, know as. Ad. Agencies, say when they Zig you zag, so. That's one way of looking at it I mean that's a kind of guerilla approach and you.
You Really, need to do to. Be fairly brave and bold if you're going to take that approach to stuff but really standing, out can. Have great dividends. And. If you don't have that kind of, budget. Because. That what you've described, there is a fairly big budget, response, isn't, it well, no yeah I mean the first year it was a lot cheaper than going there and you know very money it's extremely, expensive to go to those exhibitions, this for the whole point of it you know my my. Decision you know my my boss there was saying I'm gonna spend all this money what, do I get for it you know I'm fifty, fairly dubious leads that don't turn into business. We. Should not say that learning technologies, doesn't produce leads for some companies it's just but it works for some companies not for others it's it's. Very funny thing we, spent a lot less money and got much bigger results, than in the route that we took we. Eventually we did build up the budget, year on year because, we, were getting return on it and you. Know I think everything, I've done has been, bootstrapped. Like that that you. Know you to, justify carrying on with the experiment pushing, out bigger and better you make money yeah. Makes sense to do it if you don't well can it and give, in and just, get better sand. And. So we had a question from Meg and I make. Thanks for this question I think it's. Really. Goes. To the heart of you. Know the challenge, is within. Organizations. For, L&D teams. Where. Do you start with internal, stakeholders, who are feeling, conservative. About doing, something differently, do, you try and demonstrate by, doing or, do you convince them first. Well. Sorry. Wishy-washy, answer it depends depends. On the situation and the person I, mean some. People will. Be so conservative, and doubting, and not have the trust that, it's very difficult to talk around just, in words, so. What you would want to do is go off and do. A little under the radar pilot. Where. You could prove. That your, approach work if you can do something like that at smaller scale and say look these people like this and and. It worked with them when we got results for this so. There's proof. Data. You. Know you have, to rely on data I mean. One. Way that marketing, people are luckier, than learning. People, is that they tend to have a lot more data marketing. People know this have data coming, out of their ears you. Know and. That enables, you to to, to build business cases, lonely. People tend to have a a bit. Less but you, know that's gradually, changing, you know is our world now opening, up a day. That you can have to construct. Arguments, but, I think it's either you you know you use your best. Rhetorical. And. Persuasion. Techniques on, people, but if that doesn't work then, you, go off and do something and and. Prove that it worked I think, it's probably the best approach I hope. That's helpful. I. Think. That's useful Journal, so I would make, I would add my I, did a session, learning. Technologies, this. Summer, and, I. Was taken by the fact that I asked a, question in the rooms like or who is trying to do, something differently, within. The organization, but is finding, that the organization. You, know it's really hard to, convince. People about doing, things differently and pretty. Much everyone in the room put. Their hand up so. Actually there seems to be there's. As I get, the feeling there's a big desire to do things differently, but actually, there's. A there is just a big challenge to. Bring. People together around, what. That might look like. So. I think that idea of I feel. Like you know they're great, tips. You have to you have to use the data or and you, have to be able to try something, out.
And. I, I mean I would just add to that you or you, and/or. You. Get those stakeholders, together and discuss, a bit maybe, a kind, of higher level. How. L&D, is changing. Hmm. Because it seems I don't know what you think about that but this idea of just educating. People as. Well. You. Know is that. That is a sort of brand thing, as, well isn't it you know it's not you've, got something new how do you convince people that it's the right thing to do. Yeah. I think. It is about, starting. From the from, the inside out as well. When. It winning those bring. Those arguments is about. Kind. Of building, a story, internally. Within the organization. Of. Trust, and success. As I say you know if you can win kind of small, successes that. Turn people's heads. Around internally. That, can start. To change things but it's, also kind of working on you. Know an. Internal, brand like a marketing. Team for instance could, have an internal brand I, think. We did a bit of this in one of my companies we did we said well let's stop talking, about the marketing team because, we're agile so, there's no marketing, team anymore. There's. No marketing budget. So, what are we and we. Invented. A kind of internal brand called llama which. We said. Was an acronym it's, completely made-up but we just had a lovely picture of a llama fluffy, llama. And we would use this image to identify. What we were trying to do with. A cross-functional. Team. At. The time so, that was a bit, of you know starting, with brand, as the, beginning of your thinking point I think you see this sometimes when a new, person comes into an organization, who, is a change agent and is, billed as a person who's going to turn stuff, around. Very. Often if it's going to be you know see, the second quite a lot of times and. It's been a real failure but often. A person will come in and they have a personal, brands they have kind of a reputation, that precedes them. That. Builds trust oh yeah, he. Is the guy or she's the woman who is going to make, people feel differently. About this, you, know and. In. Any new role you do have kind of like perhaps.
Three Months, where. You can make a real impact and convince, people that, things, will change three, months to make you know some massive errors that you'll then have to climb back from perhaps but, using. That honeymoon. Period in a new role is I think is really important. Randall's, slightly there do you know that's. Great John so what's just, picking up on that where does customer. Voice, come it's because you talked about trust. And success, yeah. Whether. You're internal. Or whether you're an. External. Supplier. You. Have, to be able to build trust with your stakeholders, yeah. And your, customers, or prospects. Yeah. Surely. One. Way to do that is to, you. Know have your customers, advocate, on your behalf, yeah, and have their voice in. What you talk about how important, is that should you be putting. Them full sensor, of your marketing. Just rather, than buying, from the brand you're buying from. Someone at you know someone else is saying these, people do these wonderful things for us you. Know so therefore as a customer. I'd be looking at going well if you can do that for them I I'd, like to buy some of that how important. Is that oh. Well. There. Is a diagram we don't have on this slide unfortunately, but, could. Bring into this called the relationship, ladder which is a, fairly. Old fashioned. Marketing. Thing where you turn, people from kind, of suspects. To prospects. To. To. Buyers, to, clients, and then to advocates. At. The end of that, and. That's a useful thing. To. Talk specifically, about the, learning market I think going you know except in learning. Technologies for quite a while going back away it was always, the, case that it was a small company, selling. To a bigger company and there was a lot of distrust, from. Clients. Of. The. E-learning companies, so I think around in around the time the naughtiest I mean that's changed a lot since because, you. You'll, have people who go from one side to the fence to the other you know they become here to volunteer after having been, a, learning. Companies, or else they get fed up of being a head of an LMG and go and start, their own. Learning. Technologists, consultancy, or whatever. And things have eased up but at first it we faced an awful, lot of difficulty. When we tried to get client. Advocates. Because. In some cases you couldn't even talk to them you know as a marketing person within, a, learning. Company, you, couldn't just kind of bring up a head of, learning. At AstraZeneca, or, whatever and. And. Say would you like to come for a think-tank dinner they, were, kind of unapproachable and sales. People struggle, to get you. Know personal, contacts for these people it's, all changed a bit. So, a lot of my career. Within. Learning. Technologies. Has kind, of been about breaking, down that barrier and.
I. Think the way we did that was through thought leadership and. First. Of all you if. You're trying to sell to people it's, much easier if the first contact. You have is that you give them something you, know something of value something they want and this, was the kind of early. Genesis, of content, marketing you know epic we we created sort of forty white papers, that that, were valued because they were written by Donald Clark who knew who I was talking about on the rest of it and. It should quite be and. Those. Were those, very useful calling cards because you know who. Are you don't you know you from Adam losses company epic oh yeah you've given me something so, that's the beginning the, basic beginning of our our, relationship, then. As time went on we. We. Kind, of had these think tank dinners where you'd get people, in. A restaurant around a table going to discuss. Issues. Of the day around. Learning you know compliance, personalization. All that sort of stuff then. Write. It out and show up on to Chatham House Rules as as. A report, but. Just the events. Themselves brought, two sites together in an. Unprecedent. In, a room and there are a lot of other techniques and, events. And conferences and, and, what. Have you now, and. It's all about building trust you, know as a as, a supplier you have to build trust with your with your clients, and you. Also had fine towards thinking trust them so. What's about the this. Kind of features. First, approach. That seems to predominate in, the market, certainly. In the you know platform, technologies. Market, yeah, there's. A push on features. Yeah. And. Remarkably. Little about the, kind, of problems. That they're solving and the solutions, they provide, so. What's your view or not in terms of differentiation, there there seems to be very little, differentiation. There's, a features, list. That, most technology, companies, now have. So. What do you do. About. That well. You know nothing kind of from. Best. Practices. You sell on benefits not features. In. Practice. Depending. On who's buying what they're buying it for you. Know people will look at features lists, people you know I'm marketing. As a buying function, which I think gives you. Doesn't. It you know because every everything in marketing, involves spending money on some level so. You have to be quite a canny buyer to, to. Be a head of marketing so. You spend a lot of time comparing, features lists and you know I like this we're. Talking earlier won't we about melted about the zoom, platform, versus Skype versus, other, other, basic, things and and you'll do those kind of features comparisons. And so on. So. Features, comparisons. Are a part, of the the. Sale but when it comes to you, know probably the next major. Purchase. I've got to make is to. Buy a new computer. I'm. Afraid I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm. So bought into it that I'm not gonna look at Windows I'm gonna kind of look at the features of the, new product. But. My engagement. With the brand means that it's not the straight features. Comparison. And, I think this is also true with a lot of learning, products.
And Platforms, good. I mean it's all very well impute kind of you know you do your features comparison, you find the one that's got the best features, for the best price and then. A year after you've implemented, the. Company goes tits-up and. You've. Got a load of junk. On your hands that, will. Just age extremely, badly is not supported, and all the rest of it so you. Know you'll want to look those that. Supplier in. The white of the eyes and, make, sure they're going to be around for a while they're going to be stable they're, they're going to give you the customer support you need they're. Going to answer your questions, they're gonna answer your stupid questions without, making you feel stupid that. You can have a relationship with these people that's gonna keep, the thing running and. A lot of that stuff is that, work is done for you with, brand I, think. If you have a reputation in the market as having outstanding customer, service. It's. Gonna make you you, know it's. Gonna make the features comparison, less, important, I think, so. I mean it leverages a brand, leverages, everything. Really, yeah and it wins over cost, because. If you don't have a decent brand let's, face it you're, only going to be bought on cost so, you will be forced, down in, your pricing. Again. And again you know. With. A great brand you can you, can add a breed premium. And. The company that is both value. For money and cheap, but also as, an amazing brand I, think. Is, gonna. Win. So. Do you you. Know if you were to mark, the. Industry. Out. Of ten, currently. Four. You. Know how. Kind. Of how effective, these brands, are you, know in terms of the way you've talked about it Stacey so where do you think the, market, is just generally. Out. Of ten ten, being excellent. This. Is a really difficult one you put it beyond the spot here. Because. You, know occasionally, try to get work with these people. I'd. Say overall. Probably. About seven, in the, adequate. In. That there there's. A lot more not you know the companies are bigger now the vendor companies are bigger now there's, more marketing, money in there there, are a lot of people coming in from other. Sectors, who really know their stuff you, know there's, a lot of very good marketing people around there but. I do find, that, that, brands, are still very samey you know one site because. I would for. Various reasons I end up scooting, around a lot of vendor. Websites. And. I usually, know where everything is in. Terms of usability because, they, they all use you. Know who's WordPress, or Drupal, they're. All very much of a muchness they, all look very much the same I, do, see examples, of companies, that really, stand, out but I am taking a different approach, I look while ago there was a.
Company. Whose name, escapes, me, who had two stands, at burning technologies, one was Hearst and which was all covered in sort of. Accident. Scene tape, and, was called boring, eLearning, and you went there there was just a load of kind of there was a smashed-up stand, basically. And. You looked at this thought what's the point of that and then opposite, the aisle was, the, company's. Factual stand and they said don't, fall for boring e-learning come. For us and they, everything. That they did was was around this basic, kind of, basic. Trope and, was. Fantastically, successful. And. Pretty soon they sold the company I, remember. Who they sold it got me to know not only my company and. I'm not to say it and. They basically diluted. And kind. Of emasculated. That brand. But. It had started off great you, know by doing. Something really revolutionary, in guerrilla there. Are other, people I can point to have, absolutely. Great customer, service. Everybody. In the company lives, the values walks. And talks, the. Values without being cheesy. You. Love interfacing. With that company at every. Level but. Graphically. They're, a bit bland, if. You bring those two, things into alignment and. Get. It, and. Get designs, which are really as good as the actual spirit and ethos of the, company you've, got an absolute, winner, there but most people that are falling down on one or the other you. Know they they either look great, don't live up to it or, they. They look less great than they. Ought to yeah. You. Know or else they they look budget, and they're actually incredibly expensive, you. Know I think. Things are kind of out of alignment there so you. Know I'm giving 7 out of 10 because I think that, they're all doing really well of marketing, they're, falling down on brand in, many cases, yeah. Okay. So. Have. Any more questions, so I'm. Unless. Anyone has a question. Please. Ask, it now because, I'm just going to let, John. Plug. What. Is on the screen and what has been on the screen so John Gunn tell. Us a little. Bit about that before we go thank. You I don't we're gonna think about it but this week I launched, my podcast, which I've been talking, about for a long time. The. First episode is is out there is it's basically about me talking to the people. And. Technologies and about the technologies, that are creating, the future of learning and the, first episode is, I, need, to be with Sam Watts who, knows more than anybody I know about, virtual, reality and how it can be used for learning really.
Interesting Story about helping, blind. Veterans, to see, with virtual, reality. Examination. Of data and, the issues, around that know. Many people don't realize that virtual. Reality is an incredibly data rich. Interaction. And. The next. Episode. Relevantly. With this circus a with. This webinar we're talking about today is, all about marketing I'm. Talking to a couple of marketing, people who are also learning. Technologies, people cherrylle. Clemens and Steve, racin, and, we're talking about what. Marketing. Skills can be used within learning and we're, talking quite a bit about brand and then after, that I've got Nick Shackleton Jones and then a whole load of people queuing. Up to be on this. So. Go and get it wherever you get your podcast from. Subscribe. And like. It's. A major project for me and I'm doing, it off my own bats completely, independent, so I, really, hope you enjoy it great. So when it's the marketing, one coming, out is that out yet. Two, weeks time okay, it's slightly under two weeks time so, that sounds like it's gonna follow on really well from this. Discussion, today so yeah, yeah, great, well thank you very much thank, you I think it's all, we. Haven't had any more questions no that I'm aware of so I. Think. We. Let. Me just check. So. I think we. Can. Draw. There. Was the question slide. I'll. Ask this question if everyone is still. Did. This meet your expectations. Well, anyway I'll give you two minutes quickly. To answer that but, when we ask this at the start we, and we, didn't we didn't get any answers so either I've. Made in a massive. Error with the way that the chats working, I know. That at least one persons have a slight problem with him. Or. Maybe. People don't want to share. That answer, so which is absolutely, fine. So. If that isn't the case then, John, I would. Like. To, say a, huge. Thank you for, putting this together and, for. Your time today. Really. Enjoyed your insights and actually. It's, really I'm, really excited, to hear that you're doing a podcast episode all, about this subject with. People, in marketing. And, in learning so, it kind. Of really it's. Really worth going to that next by the sounds of it thank. You well thank you for the time for you know letting me come along and Birbal, on and. Shamelessly. Plug my podcast, and. Good, luck with all the next, ones to come and hi from Megan hi - Megan - good by the way used to work you Megan I think so good to see you again she, said thank you so. Everyone. We've, we've managed to I think. We, within. An hour so, I'm hoping that was useful this, has been the third you, know sort of, fairly. Irregular. Series. Of webinars, around, we've, done content, marketing, PR, now. Doing brand and differentiation. And. I'm sure we will do another. Topic. In this, area. In. The coming weeks so, keep, an eye out for that but. I hope you have a good rest of the day and John and everyone. Thank, you very much I'm, so cute. Bye.