The Nordic Regenerative tourism podcast - Episode 04
welcome everybody to the Iceland tourism cluster podcast this episode is another loric one and our guest today is one of our close Partners Milena nikolova the chief Behavior officer of behavior smart Milena welcome it's a great to have you and it's great to have this opportunity to hear from you thank you thank you for having me yeah thanks thanks for coming in uh Melina you're an expert and a researcher in behavioral economics and tourism and you work with a very wide ranging Network all around the world can you maybe just start by telling a little bit about yourself about your business beh smart and how you landed in this profession like what was your journey what was your path how did you end up where you are now thank you thank you so much for this question um I love it uh and it relates a little bit to to an answer that I give very often to to my children when they asked me what to do and I told them that I actually shaped uh my my profession um combining things that I that I loved uh but of course uh this is now the the outcome or a milestone I reached after uh having walked uh a journey with multiple steps and challenges and having uh gone through several Peaks so um to be specific my Early Education my undergraduate and graduate degrees are in uh human psychology and human behavior um and even when I was going through through my university studies um I knew that I wanted to do something with psychology in an applied context uh but apply it not in the classical sense of doing uh you know counseling or um something like that but actually use it in a in a context where it wasn't used uh but where it could actually help solve a different problem so fast forwarding to 203 when I moved to the United States to start my PhD um with which I actually wanted to further my um my knowledge and also capabilities to combine uh across different Sears I was already accepted in the George Washington University School business with consumer psychology uh and I started looking for um funding uh for the five years that I was going to spend in the US uh and I ended up receiving an offer from a small Research Institute at the university called International Institute of Tourism studies that offered uh a fellowship for me that involved teaching and doing research with them uh and the condition was that I made sustainability and tourism my supporting field so this is how I actually ended up marrying psychology with sustainable tourism and what uh became interesting later was that as I started studying my formal studies in tourism which was a new space for me um and sustainability uh I started noticing that many of the approaches that were promoted in uh tourism plan planning or tourism policy or tourism marketing even when it came to sustain encouraging sustainability practices didn't make sense uh from a psychology point of view so the approaches that were being included featured in these textbooks were not approaches that were going to work um which is what we see 20 plus years later that uh we haven't been able to change the behavior within the industry and Mass so that um a big transformation towards sustainability has happened so this is how I decided that this is a space for me um I accumulated um more experience in the field after my graduation and about five years ago I decided that I want to set up a venture of my own uh where I would actually start exploring how be Knowledge from Behavioral Sciences can be packed packaged in Practical Hands-On tools and solutions that can help businesses on the ground and destinations in a very practical manner change Behavior steer behavior in a way that makes sense for their business but also for um sustainability wow that's a super exciting exciting path uh you you just mentioned you figured out like during your PhD studies that the the approaches being taught to Foster sustainability didn't make sense in a psychological way do you have an example like a concrete one sure so one of the the the principles I guess of the classical approaches that uh have we have been promoting in the industry is that we need to educate The Traveler um and uh uh and at the same time though uh we've been putting uh The Traveler at the center of the of the industry um and so there are two two different approaches that actually do not make sense from a psychological and behavioral point of view so I'll start with the first um educating The Traveler or thinking that we as an industry can educate The Traveler and this can lead to sustainability transformation doesn't make sense uh for two reasons first we are not an educational industry we are a travel industry uh and educ educating 1.4 um billion Travelers who are increasing around the world is not an easy task for a company for a for an industry that actually has a different Focus uh but also psychologically educating The Traveler doesn't make sense because people when they embark on a holiday they are motivated by the desire to have an experience by the desire to create memories that they take home um by the desire to engage with the plays in the most exciting meaningful manner to them being responsible is at best um uh an add-on it's not a priority uh and science has proven that even for people who are responsible at home who make an effort and have established habits in terms of recycling in terms of shopping local in terms of producing minimal um uh waste and so on and so forth uh even they when they go on holiday they deviate from these practices the moment that is not um that it is even a tiny Notch more difficult to be responsible uh on holiday then when you're at home you just relax your your own habits and your own controls so understanding that Travelers when they travel prior ize The Experience means that every time we attempt to put information in front of them that relates to a sense of responsibility a sense of guilt they are going to ignore it and this is exactly what is happening so the attempt to educate it's just it it almost feels like swimming against the current this is it just contradicts the the flow of behavior that or the mode of behavior that Travelers in are in so this is uh uh this is one aspect the other aspect that is more of a long-term effect of of this centered customer centered approach um is that we have really place the the traveler in the center of an industry in a similar manner that is relevant to other Industries um let's say commodity Industries uh but doesn't make sense here because simply because um our industry is driven by an ecosystem where the traveler is only one element of that ecosystem and so we have created this false culture of the customer being the key decision maker and they're not equipped to make the decisions they don't have the tools and also as we just explained they're not in the mode of decision making that actually can um uh make them appropriate driver of the decisions that we need to see in order to shift towards more sustainable practices so I know this sounds a little bit conceptual and theoretical but just to illustrate um you know when you are inviting somebody at your home a friend or a guest um that you want to meet better you are doing everything to um to make them have a great experience as a host but you are the one who says whether they should take off their shoes or not you're the one who sets the menu you're the one who decides who sits where so you do put some some Norms of behavior and some rules in that just guide the the behavior without necessarily damaging the the sense of the the the perception that you're a great host and uh the quality of the experience so in travel we we we need more of an approach like that where some of the Norms are driven by the vocal hosts and by the destinations who are the owners and who have much better knowledge and are much more motivated to to manage the assets and to make decisions related to the assets um and then the traveler uh would naturally flow into the context into the riverbed of norms that we create and this also aligns with with the mode of behavior that they're in when they are um in Leia travel mode so a long explanation but this is sort of at the core of of why uh the approaches that we've been thinking about actually do not work from a behavioral point of view but that makes all of the sense is a little bit like having kids expecting them to eat healthy but offer them a room full of candy and be upset when they eat exactly exactly exactly great yeah great illustration so this uh you kind of say we have to rethink we have to change our approach and that leads us straight to the noric project and you have been part of this noric project from the very first day and ntic was still a pilot project now it developed into a threeyear one which is great can you tell a little bit Melena like how you were approached back then so almost 3 years ago and what your first thoughts were when you were approached absolutely so uh the challenge from a behavioral point of view that the nor project is is tackling um or one of the challenges that it's tackling is quite quite interesting so we uh are clear and the nordics in general are one of the the regions um that even on societal level not not even industry but on a more broader societal level um um leads the way in terms of thinking about how we should move closer to living and traveling and working um that's in harmony with both the well-being of us as people but also the well-being of the planet and the the nature and culture we love so um being one of the first areas that actually aimed to explore what is regenerative tourism what does it mean to be a Regen generative tourism destination um was not surprising it wasn't surprising that uh this was one of the places where a project like this was born now um The Challenge from a psychological point of view is interesting because on one side that means that we need to change the way that we do things both as businesses and suppliers of the experience and then of course respectively we need Travelers our visitors to consume in a slightly different manner so our role was to try to fit that behavioral perspective into um other elements of the project and first to take um for example the the definition uh or the framing of what is regenerative in the noric context which was one of the the the key initial contributions of the project just to to formulate what does it mean and and what can it mean for stakeholders in in tourism and then to to take that conceptual complex to some extent still intangible and vague idea and then translate it into very specific Hands-On behaviors that uh businesses need to practice and then respectively Travelers need to engage in in order for us to to be adhering to these principles of regenerative travel so our work ended up being taking the the definition and the the ideas or the way that businesses understood it and then developing these very practical Hands-On um Behavior change techniques that would help embed um the the the principles in the service design in the the way that a business delivers an experience and that respectively would get travelers to fall into that model of behavior simply because this is how the the the uh service is designed so again this River bed um um uh analogy where we are creating the the favorable environment for the behavior we're not even asking the traveler to think about it we're just sort of putting it in place and they just flow into that so for example we ended up um understanding that travel that travel businesses associate with um uh regenerative uh tourism um beh uh leaving leave no Trace behind behavior when visitors explore n um natural uh Landscapes so what we ended up doing is developing some mini actions and uh helping businesses incorporate these Mini nudges at the moments when we know that Travelers are planning their activity outside in order to ensure that Travelers know what to do outside in order to leave no Trace behind and businesses can enable them to do so with small things such as giving them hints that nobody's going to collect that trash if they leave it out there and also in handing them something as simple as having a bag that they can uh use to carry back anything that they generate so you see that many of the changes that we ended up developing and and feeding uh local businesses and hopefully will continue to um uh uh to scale uh these tactics is really to make it very easy for travelers to follow the principles and adhere to these uh behaviors do you have more examples like what um like what approaches you gave these tourism businesses like what concrete uh cases did you teach them yes so just to give you you a general sense of the Frameworks that we use in general um we group the types of choices that Travelers make during their traveler journey in two categories one is decisions which are practical functional um which very often are driven by ease so people opt for what is easy and what seems to be um the the the one that's nearest to them um so for example when you're thirsty you're just thirsty you reach out and you grab uh some water and if you have a single-use plastic bottle uh next to you that's what you're going to drink from if you have a reusable bottle or a glass then that's what you're going to drink of so for these kinds of decisions the what we need to be doing is to make the responsible option the easiest so that even if the traveler is not very mindful that just reach out and grab what's what's the default or what's the easiest now there's another group of decisions but that's smart that's super smart absolutely and so this is for example the logic of why we would give people a small bag when they're uh just about to leave for their hike to bring their waste back because they're not thinking about that they're thinking about what they're going to see where they're go what route to take how long to spend spend outdoors and and uh so on um and so in that sense uh they are uh they're not going to make a mindful effort but if we give them the bag and say Hey you know keep in mind that there's no waste collection so P please bring your waist back that makes them um makes it very easy for them to engage in the right in the right Behavior now there's another group where it's not about ease it's about pleasure this is the when the the the pleasure driven part of the brain kicks in and it makes the decision uh on behalf of the traveler so when we are dealing with decisions that are pleasur driven then we need to make sure that the sustainable option is packaged as an appealing option I'll give you an example this is uh for example when when we are dealing with food-based decisions about food so when we seek to encourage um guests to buy local seasonal meals um very often they associate them as um element of an of of the local experience um something that gives them a taste a sense of of being in a different place so we want to channel the decision through the pleasure uh thinking mind and so instead of just saying oh this is the responsible option and this is what will help our Farmers stay in business and so on um we actually take a different route and we just use these very emotional engaging um irresistible descriptions um of the local option so instead of just giving the ingredients of the local seasonal meal we actually help businesses present them with these engaging storytelling style descriptions which makes the traveler want to taste this just because it sounds irresistible and not because it's the right thing to do so these are the types of tactics that we help businesses employ they're very easy very often um cost close to nothing it's just changing a description but they are very powerful and they can for example changing the description and using a more emotional description of a meal can increase the likelihood that uh um a customer will opt for that by at least 12% so we've seen much higher uh much higher results so you can see that smart easy techniques this is why we call them the first mile techniques because they're super simple there are things you can employ tomorrow as a small business but they actually bring you closer and help you make regenerative practices part of the design and a natural um and set the natural um riverbed for a regenerative traveler to uh to behave that way I mean you say it's super simple but I mean it's very difficult to figure out this technique right you'd have to know the human psychic this is this is what we do and that we think that our superpower as as as a company and as a team is in taking these complex scientific um theoretical models and insights and translating them into these very simple and practical Hands-On Solutions and this is this is how we establish Behavior smart and why we establish Behavior smart and we believe that this is our place in the market of taking what science knows and bringing it into a into a format that a small business of one or two people um can uh can employ tomorrow yeah that that's so helpful like so hands on Melena dur during your work with the businesses in the N project in the last three years what um or was there something that surprised you or if I word it differently what was your biggest learning experience in noric with the businesses um so it's uh um I would probably say that maybe it's not surprising but it was something that I really uh enjoy in general um when you work with sustainability uh and climate action and regenerative practices in many places you have to convince uh businesses that they need to start thinking about and that they need to move towards adopting these practices um and this is part of the work that we always end up doing we go through these educational engagement activities in in order to to show to businesses that it's not that difficult that they should try it and that it's actually part of being a smart business with this project uh even though many of the companies that were engaged at the beginning um uh are very very small one or two people in the company uh as full-time employees uh there wasn't any convincing they were absolutely determined and clear on the fact that this is uh how business should be run sustainability um is now nonnegotiable and regenerative should be made non-negotiable as everyday practice for travel businesses and so they they were amazing in that uh they were making an effort and carving out uh from their busy busy schedule to sit down roll up their sleeves and help figure out how uh this would work because many of the tactics that um we ended up developing were tested were uh discussed uh and were given feedback on by these companies and this is what makes them grounded in the market realities which is key for uh their success so this is the thing that probably didn't shock me because I know that in this region you you have that culture but it was really really inspiring to to to work with this kind of a network of uh entrepreneurs I believe and did you get feedback from them like did they tell you did it work or like so um some of them started executing and uh gave us uh some initial feedback we are now um using but we hope that now that the the tool sets and the um the uh materials and the content is made available to a WI um audience of businesses more will start uh executing and seeing the results we know these work because we've also worked with similar approaches across uh other European countries and some of the changes that we are seeing um are really amazing so for example um uh helping uh uh an accommodation complex in again uh in a nature-based Destin ation in Slovenia um highlight less visited uh uh spots in the area just kind of to contribute to more balanced visitor flow um so we help them develop this flyer with with highlights of the less visited spot and 100% of their guests over the summer would visit at least one so again we use that attractive description approach and so on but you can see that things like that really work some of them are very simple and they can make really huge shifts in in the way that behavior works so we hope that now that the nor project has enabled the development of this tool set that more and more businesses in the region actually benefit from that I believe Mela I mean we we have been working in this project now for three years together so I personally have had the privilege to listen to you many times and learn from you but I'm sure that a lot of people that are listening to this podcast now are also inspired and if they want to learn more about the first smile and collaborate with you what are the ways to get more information and to work with you and learn from you absolutely we would love to see more uh more professionals benefit from this knowledge and to see that we are making a difference with it um the first thing to do is go on the nor um uh website and join as a member in order to access the tool set that we have developed uh for um uh for businesses to practice so they can go and uh do that um if they want to learn more on our website uh behavior-oriented for businesses and destination professionals to access and learn more about using Behavior change and of course following us on LinkedIn is another way um of keeping track of what we do and uh getting a sense of whether we can uh we can be of value to their business wonderful so there are many ways to connect and learn with you uh do you want to add something in the end Mila is there some thought that you still have that you would like to share so the only thing thing that I would say is that I um our mission and what inspires us is to make the knowledge about human psychology um accessible to tourism professionals across the board so if anyone has any um ideas or curiosity please feel free to reach out to us we're constantly working on new ideas and new ways in which we package this knowledge in order to make it impactful um for the tourism industry because uh ultimately tourism uh the core or the the magic spark of travel is um uh in the interaction between people to people and people to places so understanding the emotions the thoughts the perceptions um are uh very very key in order to really enhance the magic of travel so um we believe that we can add value with this and hope that more people will see that that's a very beautiful closure thanks a lot thanks a lot for coming today Melina thank you thank you for the opportunity
2024-12-15 17:09
