S01E4 Derren Brown and Miche Montague

[Music] foreign [Music] welcome to Norwich theater talks my name is Stephen Crocker and I'm chief executive and creative director of Norwich theater and it's lovely to be back here at podcast corner at Norwich Playhouse complete with the sound of Merry making in the bar and some subtle 80s music proving to you that we're live this episode comes to you on World Theater day and across it we're going to be exploring the power of theater and later meeting our creative communities producer Mish Montague but first i'm delighted to welcome one of the country's most popular entertainers the showman himself Darren Brown Darren welcome back to Norwich thank you this is very very exciting it's the very end of a 350 date tour I've been doing this for over a year and we're finishing here and it's very exciting well it's incredible for us because believe it or not this is the very last of our rescheduled shows um because of kovitz it feels like with you we're sort of closing a chapter and put that behind us and um it's also it's also lovely thank you very much for extending your tour so that you can fit this in for us that's a pleasure and thank you to these people that are coming that have had their show delayed so many times and have stuck with it and had the tickets delayed and postponed the next on and they're like yeah it was all going fine until I got there I then got covered and delayed it one more time but finally it's extremely good to be here and very nice that it's knowledge to come to after a West End run given that it could be anywhere absolutely to actually come somewhere that's just fantastic I like that West End run then one week one week in Norwich it's a party it's like a party week it's so nice it's so lovely being on tour anyway and to be somewhere that's um there are a few highlights that are tall large is always one of them there's a few others Bristol is lovely and um Edinburgh there's like a few cities that always just sort of are great to be in so it's a proper treat almost worth getting covered for to make it happen this way around but nice to be talking to you before you know your guests finally just disappear behind the Cheese plant or absolutely whatever it is every episode this plant grows close it's a little closer it's the Horticultural podcast in fact um but you've toured extensively I mean your commitment to getting out around the country is is just incredible and I was lucky enough to see the show last night and that and that really really shows you you the the sort of love and warmth in the room and all those audiences that kind of stayed over four reschedules they actually booked their tickets four years ago yeah it it you know you've got that amazing Rapport because you've been creating work for such a long time and I guess my first question on World Theater today people often ask you kind of how you do the show but my question is more about how do you conceive the content of the show where where does it start for you well there's three of us that make the show there's an actor called Andy nyman and a uh a guy called Andrew O'Connor who used to be um a comic and impression is back in the sort of 80s now he produces and um the three of us have always made the TV and the stage shows together so we write the thing together and then those two Direct and I suppose it's up to me to be the yeah driving force behind it but I wouldn't want to do it on my own so there's a it's a proper collaborative effort but normally the heart of the show will come from what I find interesting or valuable or just important at the time and often I'm book writing around the same time and the things that I write about are life related not magic related so I'm normally taking those things that I find valuable in life and then trying to bring them into the show magic is a it's this quickest most fraudulent route to impressing people so you know it's just something inherently very childish about it um if you want to call what I do magic it's definitely got one foot in that so a challenge for me has always been to make something grown up and honest out of something that's kind of childish and dishonest um so because of that I try I always try and make the shows about something other than just you know how to how did he do that yeah so it'll start often with that a kind of a sense of well this is what I think the show should be about the current show is about how the things in life that feel isolating or actually like when life goes badly and we feel like we've failed or whatever actually tend to be the things that join us together yeah because we all share in those experiences um another idea is to follow on from that so there was a heart to this show um and then we have about a month of talking about it and coming up with ideas and routines for one of a better word but they tend to start with a sort of um a theatrical image or a an idea rather than a rather than a trick that we found or or done before or or at least of all a method a way of doing something that's the worst place to begin from so we have these ideas for types of things and then there are often ideas for magic routines that are floating around that we haven't done um so we kind of maybe revisit those and and and somehow we get a shape and then after about a month of that we then have another month in a rehearsal room trying to get it on its feet and finding the language for it and how everything fits together but it's a weird one because with my shows in particular I don't until I have a thousand people sat there I just I don't know whether some of it will work so the previous show or a couple back now I suppose it's called Miracle the whole of the second half was Faith healing and until I've got an audience and see how they respond to it because in a way it's one thing if you're going to see a faith healer and you believe in that stuff but if they're like me in a skeptical and aren't psychologically prepared for it didn't know if it was going to work so those first few shows are a big part of the process of still I mean as with any play of course it would have previews but I think particularly with this one uh because you I just don't know how things will work out so that's all part of the creative process as well so it's a couple of months of writing and then rehearsing and then just seeing if it even comes together when it's in real life that's right because I I was watching the show last night and and I I was just puzzling and asking that question of myself because I could hear you actually I was going to ask you to be quiet I can't catch a frisbee though unfortunately but obviously you know the audience are so integral to the show without the the show simply it was they are your cast yeah that must be you know somewhat scary because you've a different cast everything else it's all I'm used to of course so I love it because for me it um and obviously with a 350 date tour you're experience of it can sort of dip and Rise a little bit generally the huge positive of that is I can't ever just go out and repeat the same show no it's another thing about you're trying to recreate something and not repeat it every night and partly that's stuff I just find Within Myself and My Own performance so hopefully it feels like I'm saying all these things for the first time but what really helps is you're just so on your toes yeah people are getting involved although I'm doing maybe the same gag or the same thing as I did the night before I'm I'm in order to make the thing work and I have to really um pay very close attention to who's up on stage I mean that's a really nice thing and it it sometimes it means you know the fates Collide in such a way that it feels like a bad night but doesn't necessarily mean the audience have not enjoyed it it just means that I'm mentally comparing it to the night before when everything was a bit smoother or whatever but um but uh it just means you never you I never get the shame show twice which is uh lovely even if it's just for me you talked about magic a second ago and then about the shows being about you now I've I've wrote a few of your books and early in your writing career you were particularly writing about magic and you've evolved as a writer to to talking much more broadly has has that kind of informed your theater making as you make the shows have you evolved over that time some things sometimes people the most inspiring things come from things that you've half half thought but never really found the language for and then somebody says something one day and you go oh yes that and my manager said a few years ago to me that um he said I was very unusual in the world of magicians of whom is known a lot in that I don't make the show about myself and I hadn't really thought about that I thought oh that sounds nice and then the more I thought about it I thought well actually that is that is something that's in important because if you make the show about yourself well first of all any job you do only gets better if you don't make it about yourself right I think I think any job would be the same if you're a teacher and you just you only care about how you're admired as a teacher you're not going to be as good a teacher as you are if you care about your students and if you're an actor on stage caring about yourself and your own performance more than the text or whatever it is you're trying to serve then you're not going to do as good a job so I after you said that then it became a bit more of a conscious driving force so I the the the easy thing with magic is to make it about yourself and how am I doing this thing or I have this power or whatever it is but um a I'm not that interesting and B it's not it's just not a very um it's I think it's why magicians tend to have quite short shelf lives generally because we know they're posturing and yeah all the stuff that's really interesting about magic they can't talk about because that's the stuff you keep seeing yeah so where do you go so I've always just I I maybe I've just sort of grown out of the urge to impress in that way that I used to have and now I do think there's you know if you're watching if you watch a magic trick and it fools you in a good way what you've what you've been shown is that your story of the world doesn't quite match up to reality right yeah there's other stuff going on that you've missed and that's a really important thing in life to get isn't it you know we have this infinite data source coming at us we can only edit and delete and turn it into some sort of narrative so we can navigate through the world um but it's there's there's stuff we're missing all the time um and you know that's about how we form stories and so on and I think that's all even something as silly and childish as magic um I think can serve that which is important and that's about so much more than how a magician is doing their tricks yeah and and that's what I was sensing last night because of course I was glued to watching what you were doing on stage but for me it it's a little bit like when I go to our pantomime every year it's so much about watching guys watching what goes on around you and how people are experiencing the show and I was thinking exactly the same thing around magic for some there is real joy and happiness in not knowing how it's done yeah but you sort of hint towards it for people because those people find joy in finding it out and it's plain that those different levels isn't it I hope so and I hope yes obviously there's always going to be the level of how is that thing possible or whatever which is the fun of it hopefully in the amazement of it and the thing that um is my job to to bring But ultimately I just I try and I try to make it about something in its heart that is different and I think there's um hopefully a sense of sort of fellow feeling or something that comes from from this show because you know that's really what it's about and you I you know we do sit and think what are people going to take away from this show and what when they leave how should they feel different from before and why is everything in the show why is it there in the same way if you're writing a scene and a play or a screenplay or whatever every every scene would have a good reason for being there otherwise it just shouldn't be there [Music] um all of that I think is uh is so important they're not not really a theater audience to come and see the show I did the show Liverpool the other year and there's a guy with a pizza in the front row um so it's also quite nice to hey that's lovely to bring people in that don't feel like traditional theater audiences um but also to it's to still try and hit them with the the stuff of theater that makes theater interesting and effective and worthwhile as opposed to just as I say somebody somebody doing clever tricks that's right it's that wow factor isn't it that feeling you only get when you're sat in a theater and you're feeling it with other people and you know I often I forget people talk to me about shows they've seen and they like it they don't like it but actually that's a sign of a good show if it gets you talking yeah afterwards and I absolutely agree your audiences you know are don't come to us generally to other shows and there's amazing opportunity yeah for the whole theater industry actually if you're bringing people in for the first time but I've never kind of been able to show you hear more conversation in the interval because it just stimulates that and you know there's that that sort of sense of anticipation in in the audience as to you know those people that desperately wants to be part of the show and those are really really yeah there's a bit in the show you'll be aware of when um I'm just sort of finishing a card trick and no one in the audience is paying any attention they're all talking yeah with each other about what has or hasn't just happened and I'm just I'm carrying on with this they're going to realize really early on at the tour okay no one's paying any attention at this point in the show it's kind of lovely it's lovely that there's this big group conversation happening um so yeah it's it's uh it's a lovely thing the other thing that I've loved having seen several of your shows is it's a real homage to the great entertainers of History the great illusionists and hypnotists and telepathists isn't it yeah is that really because you say magic is silly but you're really respectful to that great tradition is that really important in making mache what what's helpful well I found really helpful with dipping into the history of it is not I'm not particularly interested in presenting the history imagine I don't really even know a huge amount about it there are people that farm are better than me but what it's allowed me to do over the years is to present a so like you know I I obviously don't pretend to be psychic but I could recreate the ACT yeah of an old psychic act you know and and that would then allow me to do something that's sort of impossible and out of my you know sort of out of the story of what I want the audience to go away believing I can actually do it sort of puts quotation marks around the whole thing I can say these people did this they were fakes and I'll do it for you now and then suddenly there's it gives me license to have all the fun of that without the problem of I don't want people actually going away thinking I'm I'm uh psychic or whatever so I've I've often done it but the reason why I've done it is and sometimes I've completely invented the historical things that I'm creating as well that I'm referring to so it it to me it also it serves the show it serves that particular show because it provides us a a layer or something or a reason for doing it or permission to sort of do it or uh so it's all about what adds to that show and sometimes understanding that it's got a historical route even if that's whether that's genuine or fictitious or somewhere between the two which is always a fun place to be uh I think that can um it just changes the tone doesn't it it will just change the tone of the show and it's it's um imagining a world a hundred years from now where somebody is paying homage to darrenberg A.I and Bots and all that can you imagine that that world try to imagine what magic will be in 100 years time there's a I think after see Clark or someone made the point that magic is indistinguishable from insufficiently understood technology or it's something like that you know whatever we're sort of on the verge of and half understanding is sort of our form of our form of magic and me leaning into the psychological world is sort of of Our Moment it'll probably be Quantum themed at some point and a while back it was you know electricity was the big thing yeah yeah you know there's this it's whatever the whatever we feel we're on the fringes of provide such a rich um uh yeah sort of you know breeding ground for Magical themes absolutely I I I wanted to talk to you a little bit whilst we're together about happiness as well which of course you you've written about because one of the things that I've I've thought about a lot and it prompted me during covert it's exactly what we were talking about I was it just suddenly dawned on me when theaters closed during covid yes we lost access to buildings but we lost access to those creative Collective experiences that we we kind of all need in our lives is to know there's comfort in knowing that the person next to you is feeling the same thing yeah as you and and I've I've Loved what you've written about happiness and you know that happiness being a a state of mind does that go into your your theater making yes yes it will and so like in this in this particular show as I said there is a there is a theme that runs through it of the things that tend to make us feel most isolated in life I.E when when it's not going well are often the very things that bring us together and I start off with one of those um horoscopes yes we all know you could probably read any horoscope to anybody and they'd probably make it fit and say oh that's yes that's quite accurate um and then we kind of dismiss them as just nonsense but actually there's something quite valuable that they offer which is oh yes we're all sharing in very similar types of experiences we all suffer from similar insecurities and that's why those things work right um and and I think that the the that's a that is a big part of what theater can be about isn't necessarily what it's about I mean if you know if a play doesn't work for you at all it's not going to run really necessarily make you happy yeah yeah it might not but there is you know we used to sit around our ancestors used to sit around campfires and lose themselves be transported by storytelling that was this they were probably high at the time and there was this communal experience of the stories of the tribe and the rights of the tribe being sort of played out in some sort of dramatic storytelling form and people would you know sit in the dark and stare at the light and lose themselves in that and I think theater is it's the it's the sort of all we've got left of that and that sort of urge yeah is this sort of shared dream thing where and whether you're looking at Hamlet or Shrek you are seeing a hero struggle with stuff and when you relate to that stuff yourself which probably a good drama is going to make sure that you do and you're sharing that with the person next year and the person next to them and you're sat in the dark and losing yourself in this other person's story um I think that's a really uh it's a really important thing and there's not exactly about happiness because happiness just suggests a sort of a mood but it is about um it's about a certain sort of uh well-being isn't it or a certain sort of flourishing there's a there's a a deeper thing that something like theater or movies or they're probably the movies there's increasingly becoming um insular and domestic experiences and not so shared but there is something in Sharing in a story as an audience that is resonant uh which I think is very powerful magic of course is terrible terrible dramatically if you can click your fingers and make anything happen then there's no drama in that so um and tell her that the pen and Teller the wonderful American Duo and terrorist teller has written a lot about this that you know we if you can click your fingers and make anything happen you're a God figure and God figures that have no no dramatic interest in stories heroes are so yeah that's actually introducing struggle and you know Heroes they'll aim for one spot but probably ended up somewhere else by the end of the story and yeah and and this is why in my own TV work I've moved from being the guy doing the tricks yeah someone in the background so then you're watching members of the public go through these sort of elaborate set up things because now you're watching a dramatic story player which I just think is more interesting that that's right isn't it it's it is it's the other thing I I go back to panto again because you know we did a pack we did a big pants every year as lots of people know and we asked the question of audiences this year did it make you feel happier and 80 of them identified yes yeah immediately and I think it is that following somebody's story that relatability kind of gives you a sort of validity for what you're going through to some degree yeah it does obviously it depends on the story because it can be a very sad story yeah but I think I think there was I think whoever you see or whatever you see on stage what you actually want to do is connect with a human and I think that's why we're all there and whether they're singing or acting or doing magic or dancing or whatever it is you want to feel a a human connection um which again is always the starting point for my shows and I'm aware that magic is the enemy of that I get it you have to fight against that in order to um uh to to keep that you know at the heart of the experience so I think um yeah and it's not it's not about happiness in a glitzy sense it's just it's the it's the thing that is important and then on top of all that the things that early theater can provide the other my other starting point is always you know I've got 2 000 people stuck in a room with me what what can I what can I do with with that like I've kind of got license to do anything yeah so that's really fun trying to come up with things that would only exist in a room of that number of people as opposed I'm just sitting watching a play that I could watch on a TV screen and and that involves people in a very visceral and you know and emotional way I think all that's hugely exciting too and I think they're more interesting than just happiness but they're really important and they're definitely Allied yeah and and with your shows in particular again I saw it last night such a unique collection of people and the age range of people coming to your show is like nothing else that's just kind of having a bigger canvas to work on for you I mean there was a really special moment if you don't mind me sharing a parent and Son yeah that we met last night yeah you know that that's that's that's that is unique that's that's kind of like panto again it's got that people feel they can come together and have that unique experience yes that's very nice and I've noticed it because there was a bit of a gap with covid and then a gap with um I did uh show on Broadway as well and then off Broadway before that so it's actually been quite a while since I did a show in the UK and I I've definitely noticed this it's essentially I think a jump up in age because the younger kids aren't watching as much TV so they don't and their experience of TV and entertainment is now so sort of dispersed um that they don't really know me but the parents do so I've realized and I hadn't noticed this before so it's definitely a it was a bit of a kind of a oh a moment of right okay I'm growing up I'm getting older of parents introducing into their teenage children who didn't know me from Adam um was the last time I looked I was very much a young person scared their parents whether that's happened but yet it does mean that looking now looking at the audience is a proper it's a proper mixed um Group which is um is lovely and actually again serves the show because there's I can do things in the show that are to do with age and growing up this is very much a show I'm 52 just and this is very much a show that only makes sense to do it if you do it wouldn't have made any sense to do it when I was 30 and it's that's nice that it's nice if your audience isn't in a totally different universe age-wise and then my my sort of final thing I wanted to talk to you about is your cut almost there becoming if you don't mind me saying the renaissance man as well as making shows for the stage you write and you paint that that that's a range of creative outlets and that must be fascinating to kind of blend that is is is that your to happiness those different Outlets um it does help yeah I do find myself if I'm not if I'm not engaged and I think it's probably a very common experience if they've done something like a tour or finished a creative project to then if you find yourself with nothing to do which you think is going to be lovely you actually get irritable and yeah you do I I wrote the book on happiness and then I was giving a little sort of talking tour with it feeling really miserable I didn't know why and I felt like a hypocrite going out talking about how to be a little happier whilst feeling because when I realized it because I'd finished the book um that had been this amazing and rewarding engagement for you know three years as it turned out and uh likewise with this I know I'll I'll um I'll miss it so there's those other things I do are very helpful I like we find meaning in life by losing ourselves in something bigger right you find something that's bigger than you and you you just throw yourself into that thing so all those things do that for me um and uh yeah they do make me happy and also it's a very um doing a show is quite a public sort of job and the the things that I really then love alongside that are very much the opposite writing and painting all those things are quite private things so they're really um I feel very nourishing yeah Darren it's been lovely to talk to you on World Theater day and thank you for coming back to Norwich and there is it just thank you for continuing to make theater in such an extraordinary way thank you thank you Stephen and thank you again to the audiences that have allowed themselves to be delayed and laid and let their tickets come forward again and again and thank you very much for coming and thank you for having me [Music] says hey Steve it's your seat s [Music] please do come in [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Music] as well as welcoming large-scale shows touring around the country to Norwich theaters venues we are really really proud of the work that we originate and co-originate right here in Norwich and particularly on World Theater Day celebrating the creativity amongst our own communities so my next guest is mish Montague who's our creative community's producer and Mish tell us a little bit about your role and some of the projects that you work on I'd love to so um maybe it's easier if I divide my role into two to explain my first job is to support Community projects for example we start rehearsals next week with the community project linked to the raw Shakespeare companies Julius Caesar yeah and that community of people that we have will be a part of their tour when they come to Norwich in June the second part of my job is I suppose I explore new avenues for Norwich theater so I will talk to individuals I will go out to people in the local communities and I will see how we might be able to support them creatively um and then I suppose my job is to react to those conversations that we've had um I will try and design a project uh that the community has asked for that they would like a voice about and then comes the fun bit for me so I go into the studio and I will be with a new community of theater makers um and see where that Journey takes us all yeah and that's that's the exciting bit as you say isn't it and I think often some people might think when we do projects like this that we we come up with a concept and this is what we're going to do we go there you go but actually you you absolutely Pioneer an approach of co-creation absolutely that's the whole that's the whole part of my role with Norwich theater so we will we will take a new group of theater makers we will offer them a safe space and we will support their exploring of their voices of what they want to talk about any issues that they want to talk about and they will and then they will build I suppose they build a bold inclusive definitely um new piece of theater but like you say I think it's really important to say that the words the material that's built on are their voices their visions and but I suppose it's their wisdoms as well because they have a wisdom about their community that we don't have nothing is scripted and and we don't push any subject onto them whatsoever and you mentioned a really important term there which is safe space because I I've been privileged to watch you work and and see what comes out of that process and people are sharing in an incredible way aren't they and we've all got our own story but actually some of your work goes to quite moving and incredible stories I'm thinking some of the work you do with theater of sanctuary in particular so Stephen theater of sanctuary has been the most amazing project so we've I've just finished my first project with them called migration patterns and we have a group of migrants refugees and Asylum Seekers who have only spent eight weeks with us but have trusted us fully and I think you know we often talk about the magic of theater yeah and and it kind of the magic of theater feels intangible really but but it fills our space so for example just just to share a little bit we have a Turkish family who have only been in this country for four months they arrived here to flee from violence and to have a voice they they and they have a 14 month old daughter who they want to grow up uh with a voice and the day after the first earthquake in Turkey they chose to come to a workshop not only do they choose to come to a workshop they specifically thanked us for giving them a space of sanctuary and they continued to create a piece of theater and they said it it was really important for them to document their Journey creatively so that kind of says everything about what we're doing yeah and there is that magic we I I was lucky to talk to Darren Brown a magician of course earlier on around this and that's it in its literal sense but what we were talking about was just that moment of people finding their own joy and moment of happiness and the the the groups you work with through theater of sanctuary I think we acknowledge we we can't right wrongs that have happened in their story but platforming and providing that space is giving them an outlet isn't it and providing happiness yeah and I think we uh the safety um just comes from the trust that's built and I I'm not quite sure how that's built I don't know whether it's that I never ask questions I don't inquire there's never any subtext at this point we're just open to giving them the space to let them speak um yeah it's in it's incredible and and the happiness I'm not quite sure I'm not quite sure if I'd use the word happiness but I'm amazed that for example we've we've started a piece of physical theater and every moment we've just got short moments but every moment reflects the Journey of one of our participants and they're talking about really powerful things like for example we have one participant who whose moment is about uh she woke up one morning uh to the sound of sirens and her dad said you have 30 minutes to collect your belongings to say goodbye to the home and to get to the border and then he was staying in the Ukraine to fight um so we're with we're creating and developing those moments but at the same time the room is joyous joy and and I think it's joy for me I I don't think it's so much happiness but it's it the room is filled with joy and smiles although they're talking about harrowing experiences it is moments of Joy isn't it and and often I think we've seen through the incredible work the that you you've been pioneering with us that actually providing that platform somebody externalizing their story is part of a process and theater provides that in a in a really special way no absolutely and and you know we're not not at that stage yet but if we manage to get to the stage where we could share the work yeah then then that connects Us in so many ways to other people in the city it's inspiring compassion all those things so their Journeys just continue yeah and of course the the other strand of work that that you're very much leading and involved in for us brings people together around something that's on all of our minds at the moment doesn't it which is climate and climate stories and yes we talked a lot about this season of work we've done the creative National season for a number of years haven't we and it's a big undertaking for us and we've not done it lightly to to think about climate action yeah I was quite scared about taking it on thinking no seriously do I know enough about it how can I lead and support a room without being an authority on something so under the theater makers uh Banner we we have got uh we've got what we call uh listen to the landscape which is just an open invitation for people to come once a week every afternoon and [Music] to talk about or to create their own pieces of theater around what they hear on the landscape so that could be a soundscape that they put together it could be visual work but I think again the important thing is that we are listening yeah to other people under that umbrella of our uh stories our climate stories we also have the second project of our next Generation which has our 18 to 25 year old group and we are hoping that they lead more on activism so for example we will be asking them we will be giving them a stimulus every week and then they will be going out with their mobile phones and recording themselves and then we will be putting that film footage together theater of sanctuary have also agreed to work on monologues so they're talking about migration um in terms of climate and we will also film a series of monologues from theater of sanctuary from migrants and refugees it's it's an incredible program of work and we're so lucky at Norwich theater to have you leading this for us and and this this this episode of the podcast has been about theater makers and and you're you're engaging such a diverse range of different voices in making theater I think diversity is one of the first things we probably spoke about when you spoke about my job that's right um diversity is such an important issue in this age I think you know the society is so diverse Norwich City is so diverse and I think until I started to work on these projects I had no idea about the diversity of our city and our region and and I think that's the importance that we bring diverse communities together and and somewhere along the project maybe it's that they they not only have their own voices but they start to listen to other people's voices yeah and then that's where the inspiration and compassion comes in ABS absolutely for everyone listening I think some of this work is created in that safe space but over time we'll be able to platform some of this and it's wonderful to have you as part of the team you've been an artist and theater maker in Norwich aligned to us now to have you part of the team is just wonderful thank you thank you for what you bring to theater in our city thank you thank you for joining us on World Theater day and a huge thank you to my two guests the amazing Darren Brown and the equally amazing Michelle Montague we'll be back with you again for another episode in April when we'll be talking to two women who've been pioneering their own roles in the industry the first is the comedian performer and writer Susie ruffle and the second as always is a member of our Norwich theater team Tara Claxton our stage manager and theater operations manager look forward to talking to you then thank you

2023-04-01 18:54

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