Purple Collective Podcast Episode 1: Accessible Tourism
Welcome to the Purple Collective Podcast it's our first episode as the Purple Collective Podcast we've got some uh ideas of structure and features that we've been chatting about before but the main thing you need to know today is we're talking about accessible tourism and joined by Chris Fry who we both been chatting about doing a bit of a a podcast format that obviously a lot of my background is around the sort of brand marketing side and Chris as we come to in a second has very much been working in the world of legal and rights so they're quite complimentary holistic fields and then today we're joined by Ross Calladine because of the topic of of accessible tourism so I'll throw to Chris care to share whatever you want to set up from your side and then we'll throw to Ross afterwards as well yeah well it's it's it's really good to be involved with this obviously it's a it's a practical subject that matters to lots of people uh one of the few Joys we have at the moment uh is thinking about holidays or whether they're UK based or or abroad and um it's become an increasingly large part of my current practice lots of um giving lots of advice about things answering lots of questions uh so I was really uh as an as a an equality at lawyer that focuses really on disability uh and you know what's what's okay and what isn't in terms of expectations and what you can do about it um I thought this is a great opportunity to sort of have a conversation about it with you and you know clearly to to have Ross here given his um you know his his analysis of current situations what he's doing working on through uh his work with the the government and through your work Ross is um really interesting so it's great to have a forum where we can have a conversation about this from my perspective where it's not in a confrontational courtroom situation so hopefully people listening will benefit great over to you R yeah great thanks for inviting me on the call today Martin it's uh great that it's the first under the purple Collective Banner um really delighted to be alongside you Chris as well I've heard so much about your great work in this space over the years so absolute pleasure absolute pleasure to be to be with you today um yes so I work for the national tourism agency um and we go by the name of visit England and and visit Britain so we're all about growing the visitor economy so we want to see more people traveling whether that's for holiday uh within Britain or coming from abroad to to to visit Britain and England um and on business trips as well so I've been with the organization for coming up 17 years and uh developed a specialism in accessible tourism uh and become a bit of a kind of a super Advocate an ally uh to to the disabled traveler Community um really trying to push our industry along um there's there's there's lots of barriers and we're trying to break down those barriers and and bring the industry along with us so yeah looking forward to the conversation today will you uh touched on one of those sentiments that you both very I'm passionate about when you mentioned growing the economy and that might be a funny thing to say from a disability inclusion Advocate but I think over my probably a couple of decades now of working in this space it's that sort of realization that as long as we're in this world where there is that part of the world that businesses are set up to make profit we got a guest appearance in the back there Chris who's that it's stealing my stealing my thunder actually team mascot you should be a goat it's a cat yeah today there's a goat in my Liv room we've got bigger problems very good I mean this makes I I was moving to was that you know when we start with disability inclusion we get the barriers and the social model which you know we can touch upon where necessary but for me it's been how to engage in any industry the the brand that provides the goods and the services to be more inclusive and more accessible and so there's that part of it where there's the business case and then there sometimes as we know in in particular areas there are bits where there you know the business case isn't always understood or believed or maybe quite adds up as the brand would like and so there's other ways to try and move inclusion forward but I mean for you Ross what just that business case how have you seen that evolve the last few years across different parts of Tourism yeah I mean we try and lead with that carrot we try and dangle that business case carrot and when I first started this managing this work program the business case for accessible tourism wasn't really very formed so what we realized we needed a bit more data so we put a question to ask whether you or any of your traveling companions have any uh health conditions or impairments we put that question into our main tourism surveys so that's for people takeing making day trips in England or maybe stations those domestic overnight trips but also we put it into the inbound the inbound survey the international passenger survey and what that allowed us to do is quantify the size of the market and currently it's estimated to be around 14.6 billion pounds so that's how much anyone traveling to and within England specifically has has spent with their traveling party um but we know that it could be a lot bigger because there's another survey that says that 50% of disabled people haven't taken an overnight holiday trip in England in the last 12 months and that compares to 35% of non-disabled people so yeah it's a big Market our stats tell us that the tourism purple pound is huge but actually could be a lot bigger we just need to break more of those barriers down yeah thank you for for sharing that and I mean I mean Chris I guess go go where you feel you know you're day and day out working around equalities act I suppose you know what when you look at tourism what have you seen in recent years that that speak to where there are guesses like a breach of of Rights of disabled people as customers and just kind of just give us a little bit more of a flavor around that part of the the inclusion puzzle I mean you know those stats I mean it's fantastic you've got those stats first and foremost but um and you're asking the questions um to to about you know well it fundamentally that the question I had arising from that is um whether there's a question to the 50% stat that asks why um is do you know if it's because people are finding it more expensive or because they can't find is it because the accessible accommodation or transport for example doesn't exist um or is it because of the cost or are those two things connected I wonder so I often see that yeah and you've touched on some key key reasons there um it does dig in into a little bit of it but there are other surveys that are uncovering some of the main barriers now cost is one of the main one ones that comes up yeah but also the ones that we're particularly interested in is the barriers related um to what businesses can influence themselves you know the actual offer they provide but also what comes up a lot is the information and that's why visit England you know lead projects to try and imp improve the holiday plan planning experience for people traveling in England and to England because information just empowers people right and if and the opposite happens if you don't provide good quality detailed access information you you disempower people um so so we spend a lot of our efforts trying to improve the provision of of quality detailed accessibility information for places to stay and places to visit and I feel we've been on that Journey for a long long time and we've still got so much more to achieve we're in it for the long game um we need to keep banging the drum that this information is sought after it enables people to take trips they otherwise wouldn't have taken yeah I agree I think obviously when we looking at the this podcast and the audience I'm sure there's going to be different people obviously we try and put people in categories like there disabled people looking to travel and there are disabled people working in the industry and there's other variables of people that may be watching and listening to this but I think the the values of the collective is about how that that voice of the people that care about disability inclusion can make a difference and I think it's also about empowering people as you just said Ross with the right information so just from the work you've been doing and some things that you're aware of in other places what resources are out there that are good and helpful even if the the whole industry is not yet accessible but I totally agree that information and knowledge is power as they say so yeah kind of what resources could we signpost some people too that maybe are looking to take a first trip or a more adventurous trip but just struggling a little bit at the moment yeah sure so obviously my remit is kind of domestic and inbound travel to to England and Britain so the visit Britain website has um an accessible Britain guide which we've worked with the team on recently to create and that's aimed at International visitors coming over to to Britain and it spotlights some of our most accessible product um places to visit places to stay from um the different regions um and nations of of Britain um so we put some work into that and then we're just about to relaunch the visit England consumer website um later in March and we're redoing our our our Showcase of accessible um places to stay and visit within England so you know this is the inspirational content that really just uncovers some of those hidden gems um and letting more people know that because there there is a a wealth of accessible things to do and to see but sometimes they're hard to find and we want to try and uncover some of those so yeah later in March visit england.com we have a have a new website with new new ideas for accessible travel great and I mean suppose again to that Collective voice and I I asked this question in the sort of positive engagement and relationship building meaning of the question of what the brands need to to hear from disabled people like what you know I think we know that that because the world's still not been designed and built accessibly there is understandably a lot of frustration from disabled people about the barriers and the things that aren't yet where they should be and we we we get that that's like fair enough but in building brid is you know how could the disabled Community allies proactively Empower tourism Brands to be more inclusive yeah and I think um operators need to understand where that frustration comes from you know it it comes from a place of having to you know tackle discrimination and and endure barriers EV every single day so I think what we need to do is address the disconnect that's often in place between tourism operators and the disabled community and bring the two closer together because it shouldn't be an us and a them like all of us can think about friends family members that are disabled or have different access requirements and I think we just need to bring it a bit closer to home and build those great Partnerships because great things happen when you bring together like disabled persons organizations with their local tourism body um that their um DMO uh the destination management organization so that's where I see really good things happen when actually the conversation is really constructive and I know that there's loads of different groups around the country of people with lived experience of disability just really wanting to to share that experience with the tourism industry to help them to improve their offer um and when that happens it's it's great it improves it for everyone yeah thank you for that Ros and Chris obviously any Reflections you've had so far yeah you'll have seen me scribbling away as we were going there and and so that I be woring no no not at all so the the um so was I was thinking about the you know the nudging and the work you have to do uh to encourage businesses to become more accessible um and one of the thoughts I had was that it is often there's a focus on the the room itself or the hotel itself or the accommodation being accessible but yeah but you mentioned destination management um as being sort of an important function um so often it's it is about looking at more than just the accommodation is it is about um if you're promoting an organ if you're promoting a place as I guess you do um how you can you know what does visit England do to help with that promotion and help nudge uh various other partners into making sure that the area itself and the tourist attractions around them are accessible as well as just sort of promoting any particular venue because I guess you can't as an organization from any venues can you or can you um yeah we spot we we don't have definitive listings um but we Spotlight on on on top T and and you know different thematic kind of collections so so we do do that but to to answer your question you're absolutely right there's a whole what we call the tourism value chain and it all needs it all needs to be accessible for it to work when someone with access requirements is is taking a holiday so getting to the destination the accommodation getting around the destination the places to visit whether that be indoor or outdoor attractions and experiences and then obviously um the the travel back home so our work with destinations and we're now working with um an accredited collection of destinations around England that are called local visitor economy partnersh ship so that nice nice abbreviation is it not well the the acronym is an elet yeah so we're working we're working now with around 38 or so elps to take them through a training program on how to um really engender a more accessible destination um and we just started that program yesterday so we um are working with access and inclusion UK who are experts in in working on accessible tourism and they're going to be supporting and mentoring a representative from each of these destinations so yeah helping them to understand the value of working with other stakeholders across the destination it's not just accommodation it's not just attractions it's the public realm as well it's the transport operators um into and around the destination so it it can become quite complex there are lots of parts of the jigsaw but everyone needs to work together with that clear aim to improve it for not just a visitor but if you improve the access for the visitor you improve it for the local community as well yeah and the and visitors families um as well but so I mean how do you have you found it easy to incentivize using legal language service providers but um uh venues for example how have you found it easy to sort of make the case that it might cost a bit more to do something to make some you know widen a space or put a ramp in or whatever um but but actually in the end it's better business I mean are there examples how do you Champion the businesses that are doing it really really well yeah yeah it really is from an engagement perspective it's heart and mines and actually I know that there is the the the Stick of the legislation of the equality act but what we hear is it's usually that businesses are doing it because they recognize it's the right thing to do yeah often the businesses that are doing it particularly well have someone senior whether that's the business owner the chief exec or someone that has lived experience of disability either themselves personally or or someone close in their family and friends network but then they do recognize the business case so they're they're not saying they're doing it because just because it's legal or just or because there's a business case they're more often saying we're doing it because it's the right thing we know we need to be improving our offer but then we appreciate that there are also these these other imperatives around around legal obligations as well um what was your your follow on part to that Chris sorry cu that was the first part of your question well it was about um how you Champion businesses that are are really doing a great job to incentivize others or give a business case to show that it's actually good for everyone yeah so we really encourage um destinations to Showcase accessible tourism um businesses and one way we do that is that within the visit England awards for excellence which are like the highest Accolade of of English tourism they're in annual tourism awards we've got the accessible and inclusive tourism category um and most of our feeder competitions our local competitions run that category not all of them um and that gives us sight of some of the really best practice that's out there in the tourism industry and we we shout about those winners every year uh last year it was hoog range holidays that won Gold they've been leaders in this market for many years it's not the first time they they've won that award but there's also attractions there's smaller um you know kind of community run initiatives like Fleetwood Beach wheelchairs the every type of Tourism business can get recognition on the accessible and inclusive tourism award and it's it's it's kind of a project that I love working on the most because I I love getting to know those businesses and the great great work that they're doing the experiences that they're delivering for disabled Travelers yeah well that's really fascinating because my my follow on question sorry Martin you probably got your own questions but the F question was whether uh the best examples or whether there's a difference in what you see between um venues um which are internationally owned businesses or locally owned businesses good question yeah I feel very careful about that guess no not really I I just feel that it's it's sometimes it's ironically it's easier for the smaller businesses now people often think it's the other way around they often think it's easier for the bigger business because they've got massive turnovers right they've got all the money they've got all the resource what that brings is layers of sign off but if you go into to an owner operated business like a self-catering operator like Cottage in The Dales for example and you get them to understand the value of this market and the importance of doing it they can hop onto that and they don't have to go through multiple layers of sign off they're the owners of the business so they are making the decisions and they're making things happen and once they decide we're going to do accessibility they get on and do it and there's so many great accessible self-catering properties across England you just go on to something like accessible holiday escapes and you'll find loads of great accessible accommodation I think there's fewer examples to point to with some of the like multinational hoteliers for example there's pockets of good activity um but they're Global they're trying to in America listen to the Ada and do what's quite prescriptive over there whereas in the UK the equality act isn't as prescriptive it's based on what's reasonable um and I'm interested in in putting a question back to you on that Chris because people ask me about my views on is that allowed it would be good just to get get get your take on how you think the equality act works or doesn't work because for me I feel that I understand why it's based on reasonableness and that is recognizing the different shapes and sizes and budgets of businesses and it should have that flexibility but equally it's led to visit England feeling like there's a gap in Practical guidance that we've we've then gone on to fill with our um our toolkit for businesses because looking within the materials of the equality act it doesn't really give enough guidance for for hospitality and tourism businesses on what good looks like so we've we've done that piece of work ourselves working with with people across the industry and disabled Community the disabled community so I think the equality act gives um a really good framework for people to enforce for individuals to enforce their rights um and for those sometimes to involve bringing Regulators or local authorities you know um into account as as well um but the main problem with it is it um it it relies upon something having gone wrong before you can really do anything about it by which stage the the whole thing is is broken you know venues will have had bad reviews which doesn't work for them either people have lost a lot of money in this sort of situation and they'll have had a bad experience um it it is possible for so I think it's not ideal in that respect although it is um it's better I mean it is possible for people to get injunctions to require somewhere to be made accessible once they've booked uh so whilst I've I've been involved in cases which have' done that in terms of going to events for example um I've yet to be instructed to look at obtaining an injunction for a venue that says well actually now we've decided since you've told us you've not got you've got an assistance animal for example with canceling your booking for example then in those circumstances it might be possible for people to claim against that so so but the but overall the problem is that whilst the equality act gives people rise and can cause a fair amount of damage you know reputationally and in terms of costs and compensation um not many people really tend to take up those actions because really it's not a it's not a it's not a uh it's an imbalanced relationship you know you're paying for something you don't want to go and have a bad experience and and the irony is I bet hardly any service provider any venue wants to provide a bad experience either so um so the equality act can do some stuff but I don't think in this situation using the bringing the big stick out isn't going to really help I think you know the work that you're doing um and finding a mechanism to find an alternative means of resolution is probably a better option so I hope I'm not dodged that question and Chris am I right in saying that that there isn't much case law when it comes to the equality act for provision of goods and services there is more case law maybe on the employment side but people ask me this over the years and I get the impression that a lot of stuff is settled kind of behind the scenes out of coure and what that means is the organizations and kind of Champions for accessibility in Industries such as myself we don't really have that case law to point to um you're absolutely right the there's very little case law what there is is often at County court level which is not very it's it's sort of useful but not binding unless it gets up to the court of appeal or the Supreme Court um there was a um there've been I think there's only one case uh went to the county court and that was about an accessible or an inaccessible tourist venue um right but um but no I mean most cases and sensibly do settle by mediation which is com subject to a confidentiality Clause but also so it's unhelpful for the general piece because you can't wave anything at people and say this is you're going to be bound by this but on the other hand the benefit to that is that it it it allows an opportunity for people to build Bridges and restore relationships because I've really very rarely met or come across any business that's intentionally set out to create a bad experience or to discriminate against people it's just generally a lack of understanding or thinking it through or listening to customers so building relationships in a mediated settlement means that you're going to get repeat custom which is great so so that's but you're absolutely right no there aren't really many cases to point to as precedents but potentially for potentially quite a few successes for alternative resolutions so something I thought was good timing to mention hoiston hotels which I think speaks to quite a lot of certainly the last few you bits you've both been chatting to um it's been one of the campaigns that the pural collective has been championing it kind of spawned a bit out of the purple Collective and my direct experiences and to what you were saying Ross it's where by myself and many other disabled people with similar requirements for those that I have it's that larger hotel brand where as you say there's smaller self cat there's more options and and things to go for but trying to get an accessible room with a big hotel that has a hoist is n impossible so Ross and I we've been chatting quite a lot about you know why that might be and where there might be ways to sort of try to move it forward positively basically but from that brand purple goat sort of marketing economics side my attempts to speak to the big brands has fallen a bit on DEA ears thus far to say the least um and then Chris you know we've bounced what would that look like if there was a way to to use the stick but as you've just said already and the general sort of point is it's like hopefully no one's setting out to make life bad for disabled people it is about mediation and Building Bridges and coming to kind of win-win conclusions but I just thought a I wanted to mention hoiston hotels because it's it's something we've all been aware of and talking about with the purple Collective but it does feel like quite a a tangible specific example of the broader General points we've been making so far um Ross don't feel you have to say loads more on this as in like I I think I've covered the what is it and you know we're kind of trying to figure out but is there anything you want to add to that and then I'd love to hear from you Chris a little bit around some of what you just said before with their qualities out but that specific provision about hoisting hotels for disabled people but just Ross anything you want to add first yeah you know the lack of hoist in hotels is um you know really a problem for people that rely on on that equipment and that feature you know I think we look towards the changing places campaign and we look at how for many many years that was not really getting traction and then by sticking at it and you know really having a whole host of people that got behind that campaign and just kept telling the people stories you know the impact of not having that level of toilet facility and you know the reality of people having to get changed on the floor you know people having urinary infections you know they you know awful things really so I think we have to tell the people's stories I think we have to really look at addressing some of the the misconceptions or the fears that the the hotelier might have around it you know or if I put this equipment into into my bedrooms then that's going to maybe lower occupancy because maybe seeing that medical looking equipment it is not going to be attractive for people to stay in that room actually we know the opposite can be true right so so Martin and I know about um a great initiative a hotel it was Hotel Brooklyn in Manchester it's now been um rebranded as a voo Hotel um and they created what were called Liberty rooms right and the idea is that these rooms were inclusive for everyone rather than just exclusive for disabled people so actually those rooms drove the highest occupancy of any room type within the hotel and within the first year of operation that hotel generated an extra 2,000 not just because of those rooms but because of their event space as well that they had made accessible so they were winning event business now Martin we know that it's not perfect you know that that the tra hoist doesn't go through to the bathroom that's a that's a problem but the way that they've actually thought about the look and feel and the actual tracking for the Hoist system doubles up as a lighting feature and the Hoist goes within um an attractive uh bed surround cupboard cupboard unit um it's there when anyone needs it but you wouldn't know and it doesn't detract from the look and feel of the room if you don't need it so the there are examples there are ways and means of doing things um I think it needs to be part of a broader Buy in on accessibility I don't think that you can go to a hotel and lead with the Hoist and say right you know you've not got a hoist we need to get a hoist into your hotel there has to be um a development of that hotel's accessibility maturity right they need they need to get it from all angles they need to understand the customer service the training of the staff the information because there's no point in having a hoist if you don't tell anyone in your marketing big one isn't it the local restaurant and this is like more of a general storytelling than an actual restaurant but it's like the restaurant that says we bought a ramp and no one in a wheelchair came and used the ramp and you're like did you tell anyone locally that you'd got a ramp for your restaurant so yeah I fully fully agree with that point Ross but promotion needs you need confidence to be able to promote something and I truly believe the reason why lots of hotels and other tourism businesses are maybe not well we call it purple hushing you know so it's the opposite to greenwashing so greenwashing is where you're overstating your sustainability credentials um and I don't take credit for this I picked up from someone else but I love it purple Hing you know PE people are playing down and and hiding information about their accessibility because they're worried that it might not be good enough for everyone so rather than communicate what they feel might be substandard facilities they don't say anything about the facilities and that's actually worse and I think we need to give businesses confidence yeah confidence to talk about the the features talk about the facilities and understand why that's so important yeah thank you Ross yeah and Chris it's uh yeah I think I framed it already for you but it' just be good to hear we've had a couple of chats about like is there a place for the law but really it's back to how do we empower the audience listening to understand right but lead toward that you know Building Bridges and that sort of win-win result I mean yeah absolutely but really interested in I totally agree with with Ross um but the purple the purple hushing stuff is really fascinating and I was just wondering why people don't do that actually before I come on to that because is it thinking about the cases I run typically it it's it's often down to people not it's often down to human Conta people staff who are often sort of and this is in larger venues typically rather than the smaller venues uh where they have a higher Staff turnover um potentially don't maybe they're not so certain that even or if they advertise the space is accessible but then it's made inaccessible by a lack of disability aware staff for example maybe a bit maybe there's a a wider issue there about sort of the software as well as the hardware if you like um uh so that's something to to maybe think about as well maybe it's a lack of confidence um in the team which is a wider wider point and is is equally part of accessible tourism and venues isn't it really um but yeah um I think I think the i' echo the point you made that 10 years ago five years ago changing places stuff was very very difficult and uh they come on absolutely I mean their brand is great the coverage is fantastic it was a mixture of great campaigning greater from you know probably bodies like yours Ross but also um different campaign groups and also a mixture the the Strategic litigation as well you know you H which always comes down to an individual bringing a case highlighting how terrible it is and once you get people talking about that case and there's a threat of litigation then suddenly all the businesses and their unions and representatives look at it and think whoa this is going to cost us a fortune if we don't get it right and we're vulnerable to litigation so um strategic litigation is good and I can see that that when it comes to hoist might be um might be something that happens in the fullness of time especially given because I didn't know until you told me that um that you can have there are adjustments that can be made to the to the tracks which mean that you can swap them out so it doesn't affect not that it should matter really but the customer experience of non-disabled uh non hoist using uh customers so so that's important but I think um I think one of them I think one of the obvious problems is the building RS side of things and compliance because venues often think well we're not required to have one um or there are certain British standards that or codes of practice British standards and uh relating to designs of accessible uh and inclusive built environments which which only sort of require a percentage of rooms to have hoists and and maybe that's only on new builds but um I wonder if more can be done in terms of um looking at designing hoists into new builds and looking at planning applications so an individual likely to be affected by a new application um could under you know with existing legal rights challenge the planning application say you you have to have due regard to or at least the local Authority giving the plan or making the planning decision should have due regard uh to accessibility inclusion when looking at uh whether to Grant permission for a new build space or a rebranded uh I know Ross you probably know more about um the built environment work than I do um but but if a building is being re reclassified for example then that I think leads to a reassessment of criteria U so so I think there's more to be done in terms of looking at the equality in terms of um you know designing accessibility and hoists into new builds uh and potentially interestingly given the earlier conversation about um differ sized venues I think there's less excuse for a large multinational or internationally owned venue um there's less excuse for them not to have one than there is for the smaller venue on the side of the Northeast Coast for example because it comes down to the reasonable cost associated with that and it's never going to be reasonable if it's going to put a business out of out of business that's not helpful to anybody um but if you're a large organization then you should be looking at doing that as a matter of course yeah no and I I don't disagree with you um on that point at all uh Chris um just taking it back you were saying first and foremost about um training and and the actual customer facing staff and for many years we've spoke about the three what we call the three pillars of accessible tourism and there's actually a fourth but um the three being the built environment which is what often people think about first and foremost but then the the welcome and the customer service which you've mentioned and then the information and if you employ people the fourth is employment and really to be an accessible provider accessible business you need to have addressed all of those areas you know there's no good having having any one of them in isolation you know if you've got a hoist but you don't communicate it or your staff don't know how to use it well it's not going to work like having a swimming pool but not having a not having a you know anyone to to police it I can't remember what the name is now for the live God that's it cool the time gentlemen I think really where where you've brought us to there Chris it's probably fair to say is where my yearo of personal research and exploration and some chats with Ross some chats with Chris and chats with other people has got us to I think that it's that change in place I don't want to say blueprint but in fired by changing places and definitely something about the the partm building R planning like that's not something that we can then just have sorted and done and dusted tomorrow unfortunately but I think that's probably where the the the proper change comes from so I think we'll keep going on what that looks like at the purple Collective and engage the collective voices to help what once there's more clarity around where the right levers are and which levers we need to pull um the the final feature today is a sort of Q&A Chris where going forward we're going to probably have some live streams so people can ask on a live stream and obviously even on a recording like this put put a call out now if you've got any questions on right type sentiments send them in to us on our Instagram and through the website so there'll be a feature that we do every time I think we've covered a lot today around accessible tourism but is there one or two sort of Q&A type things Chris you wanted to finish us off with on on the tourism sentiment yeah I mean I'm just sort of reflecting on what I've got myself into it just sounds like I'm going to be put under loads of pressure every every episode basic yeah great brilliant um but the um I think the main thing today um is that there was there was news at least in in my area up in uh in Yorkshire about a paralympian who's um booked onto a cruise um or a former par Olympian he's booked onto a cruise which turned out to be very inaccessible both in terms of the um the um the room and also not able to do trips out um so this was abroad so um you can breathe out Ross uh in that but but it but it highlights a big issue obviously and I know Martin you're regularly involved in it through the um rights on flight side of things again which is as people are you know looking at the Montreal Con well it's the Montreal Convention Point um so I've been asked to look at that again today and it's probably helpful just to sort of clarify a question or to give an answer to a question I was asked earlier about it uh which is that that essentially the rights that apply in terms of air and sea travel in the UK um are really limited to sort of when you get on the gate when you get through the gate so you have rights to get through the gate so in but but not very much after that um um and it uh so the Montreal Convention basically is an international treaty which limits everybody's rights in the air and there was a really important case on that it's not very often I quote cases but um for those of you with an interest in it and it's St stt and Thomas Cook which is a Supreme Court case where the Supreme Court slammed uh Thomas Cook uh in relation to the service it gave to a a disabled passenger on a flight uh and it was backed by the equality and Human Rights Commission um uh but essentially none of us really at the moment because the UK signed up to an international treaty on it have a right to enforce various obligations even against UK sort of providers that that one would normally expect to be able to enforce uh which is pretty unsatisfactory and um so so the answer in relation to the paralympian case I just mentioned was that really there's there's one option to challenge and it's if you book uh through a uh if youve disclosed a disability and you've booked it through a a package Holiday from a UK based provider uh but apart from that um there's very little that that can be done which is more a campaigning point at the moment in terms I I know that there's the campaign on the assisted air travel stuff that you're involved with and Sophie Morgan is um arguably the civil aviation Authority in in that those situations could be empowered to do more um in terms of also the the design and build of ships and planes because there's very little interestingly there was another case that I was asked to look at um where I was discussing with a friend today uh where they bought a first class ticket on a flight uh non-ambulant wheelchair um using customer and um first class actually is not accessible because they've reduce the size of the the width of the aisles so that the wheelchair user can't do it which means essentially some vehicles are being designed or some disabled people have been designed out of access on buildings and so there's quite a lot to look at there on a wider issue but uh but as I say in terms of that I think that's mainly a lobbying Point um but the legals on that are the same which is very frustrating the the cruise industry generally I um am told has a reputation for good accessible travel um but obviously there's instances there with that case that where it's gone wrong um but I know that Royal Caribbean has won awards for for accessibility the excursions they advertise they have specific accessible versions of their excursions um and I spoke at the um the app to um accessible travel seminar abor of the association of British travel agents just the other week and again it was a soldout event by industry so a lot of recognition by by players of outbound um operators as well on the importance of getting this right um great case studies from jet 2 and Tui for the the brilliant work they're doing on accessible holidays so yeah I hear you that that that there's no excuse for um for for that incidence that's happened there um but we can draw some um encouragement for for from operators really getting into the room and engaged on this topic we just all wish you know it could move quicker than it does right yeah and it comes back to the same point that nobody wants to provide no nobody wants anybody to have a bad experience um we're in we're in the market of making memories that's what um the travel the travel and tourism industry is about well that's what it is isn't it you know if you if you get your job right in this industry you've made memories for your guests and your visitors so yeah we are an industry that puts the person first and we absolutely need to understand that everyone's needs are individual and sometimes those needs are related to accessibility and we need to listen learn and um yeah just continue to try and provide the best experiences for for all of our guests and visitors really I want Ross's job lawyers are not nobody's ever said lawyers are in the business of making memories not in a good way anyway no no you don't want my do Chris occasionally all right guys I think we'll um draw things to a bit of a close I think what for me what's come through and I'm going to be using this term disability inclusion jigs or puzzle a lot I think that there are just so many different parts in the world becoming more and more accessible and I think there there's almost something Cas when you're both talking at the end there's a sort of the pull factor that comes from the brand economic you know making memories sentiments and there's a push factor which is where we have to have legal structures and accountability and holding different you know Brands and organizations to accountability and I think we're always going to need both um and it's important that we acknowledge both of those through today the lens of accessible tourism and in future episodes we'll be focusing on other topic so I think it is it is both um and as we say the overall purposes about that the world doesn't have barriers and people with a disability can go wherever they want to and do what they want to do on that individual level um is there anything of you burnning to say as a final word are you happy with close good thanks um next time I'll make sure the cats painted purple yeah that' be good and I won't send my dog to daycare so that she can make an appearance next time cool and everyone watching and listening I as we said earlier it's that you know thanks Big thanks to Ross for joining for our focus on tourism and having just a really interesting conversation about so many areas I think we could have doubled tripled the time and still not covered all that's under tourism but we did a good job um and I think yeah we said with Chris I think there's a nice Synergy between us with our different backgrounds and experiences and obviously the questions particularly around rights and legislation and compliance just get your questions in if you have things you like Chris to help you with and we we'll try to get to those and I guess it wouldn't be a podcast without saying Please Subscribe and like and share on whatever Channel you're watching and listening and uh that's that wraps up our inaugural episode of the purple Collective podcast thank you everyone thanks very much see you guys thanks for you guys
2025-03-18 20:34
