Interview with Penny Rafferty - A Career in Sustainable Tourism
hello thanks for joining us today today I'm joined by Penny Rafferty who is the Head of Sustainability at Tourism Australia Penny will be discussing the work to reframe and Advocate to uh sustainability and sustainable tourism in terms of the environment and Regional economies thank you for joining us today Penny can you please tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do sure thank you very much for having me Karen um so the work I do is very much about building a voice of advocacy for our tourism operators and and our industry for The Operators that are very clearly having positive impact on a multiple uh set of stakeholders from the environment that they operate in the community that they live in and work in and the surrounding uh communities and but also the impact that they on the local culture so that what they do has positive impact and really um defines what is uniquely Australian and sustainably Australian um the work is you know of course with Tourism Australia it's a two- prompt approach so if we're going we are a marketing voice for the country uh we don't own the product but we are sort of I guess you know Chief Storyteller if for want of a better word um we also you know the other part of my work is the behind the scenes which every business does if they're going to work in this space which is are we you know are we walking the walk as well as talking the talk so there's some business of the business work but primarily it is about embedding consideration of sustainability into all of our messaging and champing and elevating the industry operators in tourism that are doing it well excellent and and in terms of sustainability what does that really mean in Context of the tourism industry specifically oh goodness uh sustainability like luxury means something different to every single person you talk to so from recycling those toilet paper rolls to saving the planet and everything in between but globally there are you know the the the concept of positive impact and incremental positive impact on people Planet place is widely agreed to be kind of a a holdall for what does sustainability mean and it will mean something different for every business that you know people work in um and every business is at a different stage of understanding what what it is what it's going to take for them to be sustainable um so it is incremental positive impact on the people the planet the place and of course they have to be profitable otherwise that's not sustainable excellent and um so in terms of the opport unities now so in um obviously everybody has to do their own assessment as you said and work out what does sustainability mean for them and what their incremental positive impact could be what sorts examples of opportunities are available now that present themselves particularly at this unique time that we're in oh you know one of my favorite memes of the last year was um an Instagram Meme and I'm not a big meme person but saying you know the world what do you mean we've got to stop everything to save the planet and mother nature here's a virus go practice I think the opportunity is the fact that we have been forced to stop and we everybody's had an opportunity to re-evaluate what did what do I value so even even as much as sort of March 2020 I was talking to a lot of people who'd literally been in lockdown for a couple of weeks and without prompting every single one of them referenced their increased appreciation or than value for nature and connection with nature um teachers many other things Health well-being travel know and that realization that travel is a privilege not a right I think has has has emerged I think the value of the things that actually are at the at the base at the core appeal of travel which is nature and cultural heritage and cultural environments um there's a heightened appreci ation of that not diminishing the pain that a lot of businesses have gone through but the fact that everyone has been at a standstill um and it's it's kind of an even playing Ground for many businesses that just were too busy didn't have time um weren't quite sure where to start that it's it's an even playing Ground for those businesses to use this time to innovate and reframe how they are going to be sustainable for the future from their employee perspective from their environment their local community perspective you know we're not so busy for a change yeah absolutely it it's um it is an incredible opportunity isn't it that it's not that go go go it's that time to like you say they can innovate and look forward and and what would you say in terms of achieving a more sustainable tourism what are the biggest challenges to achieving that oh I think it depends on the business business that you're in so I think there and there are a lot of business models and support sort of systems like B Corp like ecotourism Australia like the long run any of those businesses that are there to help businesses of all shapes and sizes figure out what it is that's going to make them more sustainable both from a financial point of you but also longer term impact on their environment um a really great example of a business that um has know practiced this for know 23 plus years now is in trepid travel so it's the largest um small tour group operator in the in the world based here in Australia um they've gone through the the borp um certification process I think it's 25 times now and just refining their business so everything from um looking at their procurement who do they deal with what is the impact are there what you know do do each of the suppliers that they deal with have a a a positive impact on the the supply chain further down the track on the people that they employ to their philosophy of you know open sharing of lots of resources so I think one of the big things is it's really hard for it's it's quite challenging for a lot of people to get their head around well how how do I decarbonize my business how do I um you know tighten my business or adapt my business so that I can account for and measure multiple stakeholder impacts not just measure the bottom line so you know everyone's heard of the triple bottom line or the quadruple bottom line it really is it's about um it's almost a mindset shift really it is about going right profitability is essential but what are the other impacts and how do I measure that as part of the success of my business are my employees happy well paid is that is the majority the money that I bring into the business to then pay out is the majority of that staying in this local region and environment and community that I depend on for my business is the um waste out of my business impacting negatively on the environment that is arguably the appeal for my business you know a lot of hidden sort of benefits and positive and negative balances that can be really quite easily reviewed but it it takes a bit of a a Minds set shift to go that's how I'm going to measure the success of my business excellent and I would imagine the examples like Intrepid uh travel that you mentioned are really good case studies and and places for learning really PL where where that you can examine and look at good examples of practice absolutely and know I know a few people who have worked with Intrepid in the past and the you know one of the benefits of doing this is you end up with this incredible staff loyalty this wonderful culture and people want to work for you because they feel good about doing good and you know travel and tourism is an amazing industry to work in but the the businesses that actually have that positive impact that flows through to this through to the employees the staff as well excellent and and with regards to the main stakeholders obviously staff are a big one um but you mentioned earlier there's multi multiple stakeholders to consider when looking at the sustainability who are these main stakeholders in overcoming challenges and how can they make a difference to the organization or business listen it depends what business you're in um and I call it the stakeholder Galaxy for some businesses it's really quite simple it is the physical environment that you operate in it is the the people both within the business but also imp acted touched by the business so your supply chain um it is the customer absolutely it is your guest and you know U many many people would have heard me say this before you know the the word tourist I I have a problem with because it really depersonalizes the the industry that we are in that what we do you know so you know a simple way of engaging more more deeply with people especially now because our our Travelers really do want to engage more deeply is to absolutely talk about them as visitors and guests there's a tonal shift in that um not just as a number it is about you know um so it's the environment it's the people in the local community it's your your staff it's also the um the broader community that you work in and in Australia every part of Australia has an indigenous connection so one of the really simple things that we can do um as as businesses is acknowledged that and it's not know there I think there's a maturity now that people understand that it is actually about acknowledgement and respect and there's so much we can learn from our local indigenous people you know they've been around they're the oldest living storytellers in the world because they have lived as at at at as one with the land that they live on so they're actually walking talking sustainability success stories um so that acknowledgement of our unique Australian culture is also um a key part of a sustainability Journey for a business excellent and that learning in terms of taking that on there's a lot of learning that business owners and um those working in organizations they they need to develop and start to I guess expand their their mindset and their understanding and would you say that it's the owners and the managers in these organizations where the focus should be with education and learning or is it more broader that we need to educate our visitors as well I I think it is the coming together of all of those things sometimes yes it'll be triggered by an owner or a manager sometimes it'll be triggered by a grounds will of keen new Next Generation intelligent curious people sometimes it'll be triggered by guest response that oh hang on maybe I should be eliminating more civil used PR Plastics from my business because I'm actually getting bad negative customer feedback now um business owners though there is increasing evidence that doing the right thing and having a a business that does measure multiple stakeholder positive impact as as part of his success are generally better run businesses and then generally more profitable and so you have you know big hedge funds like um black rock on Wall Street that are investing in sustainably driven businesses because they are not because they feel good not because it's fluffy and and makes them feel good but because they're better run businesses right that's a really good point to know um because a lot of people I would imagine the preconceived idea is that when you start to take these actions it costs you more money and it's um it's more work but actually it makes such a significant difference to be more efficient yeah the listen there is of course work involved in making change in a business but very often it it makes a positive impact on the bottom line as well as a positive impression on the on the guest as well as a positive contribution to the regional community so you know your supply chain whether it's local food and and Beverages and produce whether it is local amenities whether it is local art all of those things also align with why people travel know people travel to to experience difference they travel to experience the place the the era of cookie cutter um I'm traveling to stay in a hotel is over and I'm and the era of I'm staying in a hotel because it's got the same brand of sparkling wine in it that I could get in every one of its hotels doesn't matter what country I'm in you know that's characterless people don't travel for that anymore they travel to really experience the place and particularly postco there is that there is an awful lot of research and and commentary and narrative now around travel seeking a deeper connection with place um which you know in Australia we kind of we've done that a lot already we've always offered that but the importance of local local is certainly On The Rise excellent and in terms of of building the message and and this connection with place as well and sustainability in what ways can we shape how customers view the value of their travel spend and what they get from that that travel spend uh simply tell sto tell your story learn and you know it's interesting I've been working with a lot of businesses many of whom are doing really cool stuff in terms of you know habitat rebuilding or Wildlife protection which is particularly um potent you know given the the focus on Australia Post bushfires um to working with local producers and creating really cool Gins you know we've got a gin explosion happening in Australia at the moment but the stories behind those things uh are your tools of trade and it's interesting you know once you get people telling their story and you say that was an amazing story but I can't see that on your website or I can't see that articulated on your social media or in your brochure you got to tell that story because that provides the um um the the the compelling reason for people to want to connect with you and that links um really well with Simon's the next video doesn't it people buy what you um people don't buy what you do they buy why you do it absolutely and then another really great tool is um something that I've always kind of abided by is um there's a a big piece of research was done post GFC by a guy called Ross Honeywell and he developed a theory around the new economic order which is planet traditional and the desire economy and if you Google that on his homepage there's a a seven or eight minute animation that really talks about the people that are driven by by the cost of something but the people that are driven by what is it what is its value and how does it align with their values and really those are The Travelers they're the ones that really you know they'll they'll talk they they'll if you don't deliver on the promise yes then that then cost matters but they will spend on things that align with their values um and that's that sits at the heart of sustainability or sustainability sits at the heart of that what's the alternative people want to travel unsustainably yeah yeah exactly it's become um it's become more the Norman expectation isn't it it's be gone beyond uh Isn't it nice it's actually an expectation yeah and you know and but the the promise has to live up you know if if we've all heard about over tourism and you know have seen even in New Israel's the impact on you know beautiful beaches in in in Southeast Asia on cities in Europe and you look at the beautiful glossy brochures and you then turn up there and there's overcrowding or there's nasty terrible pollution and litter there's lack of respect for the place that's just not sustainable and you know we so there's an awful lot of work to be done to make sure that we actually have integrity of promise absolutely and with that and and with your role you have such a a big role that you have to to work within what would you say are the biggest challenges for you in the role that you do um it it must be like so widespread what you have to achieve um oh certainly time um and you know I'm I'm not necessarily very patient but the the biggest challenge and opportunity is that this is not a bolt-on this is not an add-on or a separate Silo of thinking for Tourism Australia it's a fundamental so one of the first Little Steps was actually getting that that acceptance that this has to be an all of organization approach the knowledge can't sit with just one person and that's the same with any business the knowledge and the understanding that this is a consideration in everything that we do has to be across the organization so yes the challenge was to start to infuse that but it's also the opportunity because then it means it's not one person kind of the keeper of all things sustainability it's not you know it's not like doing the accounts or it's not like doing the purchasing this is something that impacts on every aspect of a business so making sure that every every member of staff from the board to the to the post boy um understand that hey how how do I make this a consideration in my activity how do I then actually make it a ingrain it into our decision making processes and our policies and our standard operating procedures not as a drum banging exercise but how do I make it a consideration have we consider considered our bold vision statement for the future in terms of the day-to-day Sops and procedures and activ ities that every single person on the on the team does that's brilliant so it's not just embedded it's embedded in the culture but it's embedded in everything that you do and it's really it's really easy I think for S organizations to sometimes have those values statements that aren't Then followed through but like you say if it's considered in every aspect of decision making automatically it becomes an everyday occurrence and it it actually starts to permeate through the whole organ ization absolutely and um a very wise very young fabulous colleague of mine um in Victoria gave me a phrase that I I use regularly and it reverts to the storytelling but it also refers to this sort of infusion across across a business it it is about making a commitment but her wise words were progress not Perfection and and as long as that isn't a copout absolutely start it it start from where you are one little step at a time because every you know it's quite often with um sustainability is one of those words it's it's an internal working word it's a word that has kind of become a bit overwhelming and possibly lost meaning in terms of consumer marketing but it absolutely um you know is an internal working word we can't we can't just create another word but don't you you don't have to wait for Perfection you look at what can we do now and every bit every little step is a step towards a more sustainable future for the business for the people around you for the environment you work in um and and you know it makes it less overwhelming absolutely and and and definitely more achievable and in terms of the mindset so so for new entrance that are starting to come into the industry would you say that that mindset of you know what can I do that's going to make an impact in my immediate role so that I can start being sustainable straight away is that the type of mindset you would like to see entrance coming in with um yes it's interesting because actually the the you know the generation after me um there's there's a significant number of them that have already got the mindset that hang on what's what's got what what's going to be left what you know the enormity of the damage that we have done to the planet and the degradation of environments and communities is they're already aware of that so I think the mindset is about long-term thinking and bring people with you um and and not getting not getting overwhelmed have big hairy audacious goals for the future but start with what you can manage have a really good look at what do I what do I have control over in my day day life and you know fix those bits what do I have influence over and bring people with you what do I have no control or influence over but you know what if there's enough of us that start thinking that um around a project we might be able to influence bigger players and create a greater ground SWR of leadership brilliant and and definitely if you go alone um sorry if you go alone it it takes a lot longer than actually working with others yeah collaboration and and and in fact in the sustainability space it's really interesting you you will find people are really willing to share it's not a competition it's not the Doge e dog you know Wolf of Wall Street kind of activity out there because it is actually for the greater good and I think people that uh have been working on improving and creating large scale positive impact for a long time realized that all their efforts aren't going to make much difference if they don't bring everyone else with them so they're very happy to share the level of collaboration in in this area is is just heartwarming that's fantastic and on on that that leads us really nicely actually into our final question which is the top three skills when building your team and would you say that capacity to lead and bring people with is something that you actually look for absolutely so it's it's that balance between um curiosity and collaboration um is is is what is sort of one of those little Dynamics I can't look at single skills I always look at sort of skills that are complimentary but create a a productive tension in a in a in say a meeting room so collaboration and curiosity um empathy empathy empathy empathy um wins out every time and and a work ethic you know any industry any time any place if there if there isn't a work ethic which shows you care then um you know it's it's it's it's very hard to to create the kind of dynamic and tension and productivity and excitement in a team that's really interesting because it's it's very hard I think for a lot of people to sort of really nail it and put put the finger on exactly you know what that means to have that work e because people can explain often what they don't want but to say that they actually have to care is a really good way of summing up all of those things that that relate to being on time being engaged being interested just caring is a really good way to sum it up yeah and and with work ethic that doesn't just mean work yourself to the Bone it means having the smarts to understand what are the priorities what you know what what do I need to get done that means the rest of the team can get their job done and it means also having the smarts to go hang on which of these things is more important you know you know it it and really applying a discipline to to the work that you do get get get the things that really matter done first not you know not not drown in all the the things that don't necessarily make a difference just to be seen to be working hard absolutely well that's fantastic and we've actually reached the end of our interview now so I'd just like to thank you so much for your time and you've mentioned some incredible businesses and examples and some some great videos what where would you say is the best place for our students and trainers to actually start you know investigating and finding out a bit more about this topic oh goodness um there are multiple resources and I think it might even be easier if I send you a list and you could potentially post them on this but look to best PR practice um be Corp and looking at businesses that have gone through the bot process from small family businesses to big one like Intrepid um look at um oh there are so many success stories there is no cookie cutter formula for this so there's no one source of Truth um but Ed I think reading just reading and educating yourself around what businesses are having a positive impact in the very very diverse range of areas that Encompass tourism yeah excellent that's yeah and you know what better example what better way than actually finding success stories and those that have actually they're actually demonstrating it it's applied it's not just theory of what you need to do it's actually this is it in practice which is it's kind of sums up everything about vocational education and and what it aims to achieve so that's that's perfect wonderful thank you Karen Lely thank you so much again for your time and your insights it's it's really appreciated my Absolut pleasure good luck everyone
2024-12-08 22:28
