Indie Touring and How To Build Your Team with The Suffers

it is in your best interest to say that to social media and Text Your Friends actually send an email to these people that you haven't seen in years send a message to them uh they probably miss you just as much as you miss them especially the artists that I've toured for years and have whole ass lives in these other places you know I know it sounds a little extra but I think there's real power in that DIY aspect of going around any algorithm and going back to basic communication the club is functioning we have to trust that they're going to do what they can to the best of their ability and we have to work as if something on their end is going to up that night the least that we can do is post a flyer about our own show the least that we can do is record a real for every single City there are ways that that stuff can be scheduled in post when it needs to however that doesn't mean that it gets in the complete way of creation I feel like when it comes to true just authentic art you can always get around an algorithm I feel like you can always get around over saturation because I've built a large chunk of my career doing that is it always the easy way to do things absolutely not and it's really hard and it should not be like this but it's kind of low-key what happens when the people that don't make music are in charge of a lot of it [Music] what's going on welcome to the new music business I'm your host Ari herstand author of how to make it in the new music business the book Third Edition coming this January pre-order is out now check it out today my guest is Cam Franklin of the band The suffers now they are an indie Funk r b Soul afro-cuban horn heavy incredible band that I discovered at South by Southwest this last year they were my favorite discoveries of the festival I got to catch them twice uh intentionally the first time was accidental and the second time was very intentional this came together because cam can share a lot of incredible perspective and I really appreciated her Candor and transparency throughout this conversation and you're going to learn a lot and she doesn't hold back which I really appreciated as an indie artist and as someone who has been touring for the better part of the last 10 years or so and and releasing music she has a lot of great perspective and a lot of important information to share I would encourage everybody to check out the suffers check out their new album they have uh incredible songs on there it's a lot of fun if you ever see them touring through wherever you are definitely get out to a show they're so much fun we get into this conversation with the current state of the live music industry kind of release strategy how they go about working with collaborators how they handle songwriting publishing splits how they handle running a 10-piece band uh how does that all work it was they had actually she has a really interesting take on this and something that I hadn't really heard of before how she decides to bring on team members is her manager label booking agents all of that and what she thinks about kind of the the tech Giants the algorithms you know the spotifys the Facebooks tick tocks Instagrams all of that and how they decide to interact with their audience either through these these platforms and mediums outside of them and just her whole philosophy on what is important to maintain um as you run a career I encourage you to stick around to the very end uh there's there's endless gems that cam drops throughout and you're going to want to listen to this one in full you can find the suffers that's s-u-f-f-e-r-s everywhere on the internet um find their new album which is incredible you should check out that uh it's called it starts with love and the song that we're referencing take me to the good times is the song that brene brown has been using on her uh podcast dare to lead podcast the suffers have have had an incredible career they they've performed on Jimmy Kimmel they performed on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah they performed on Tiny desk as an indie band as kind of a DIY band from the very beginning and uh they they've had a really incredible trajectory and so you're going to learn a lot about how they did all of that and how um what cam thinks about all of it as always you can find all of us that make the show happen at Ari's take on Instagram Tick Tock and Twitter you can find me at Ari herstand on Instagram and Twitter visit Ari's take.com and get on that email list that's where you're gonna find the most up-to-date relevant information that we send out regularly those emails get on that email list that is how we can we can get around that algorithm and make sure that we go straight to you please pause this right now and subscribe if you haven't already subscribed hit that follow button that subscribe button uh if you want to keep getting the podcast in your or feed hit that follow that like that subscribe button you'll get those and if you can please uh leave a five star review on Spotify and apple podcast uh those really help we really appreciate that and if you're watching on YouTube leave us a comment I'd love to hear what you thought about this and if you check out some of the other interviews all right let's kick into the show Dan Franklin welcome to the show thank you thank you for having me definitely so um I have to I have to tell you a little story uh and then we'll we'll really jump into everything else but um so I was at South by this last year and I was at the the recording Academy party um outside and it was um I was I was on my way out and I was I was just about to leave um was that the Four Seasons in the backyard there and and then I was just like yanked to the stage by uh like what I was hearing and I just like gravitated over there um because you had started playing and it's it's like rare I mean South by is like always has the history of Discovery and everything like that and we know that but like the suffers was one of my favorite discoveries the my favorite discovery of South by this year it was so much fun and I like I caught that show I stayed for the whole set um and then I it's like one of those cases where when bands play so many times over uh the week that you can kind of maybe catch a couple more and so then I caught the final show that you had um that weekend and uh it was uh it was a great time and and so it was um yeah it was it was um it was a lot of fun to kind of like experience you know Discovery again after of course you know being like two years packed you know away and being away from live music and away from South by and all of that um so that was a lot of fun I love hearing that um so I'm actually glad that we're talking now because uh you just finished uh a solid run of shows I guess for the last few months or so and yeah I we you know we I've been talking to a lot of people in the live music industry and and uh booking agents and talent buyers and promoters and it's kind of a show right now across the industry and I'm curious to hear your perspective and your take like how did this tour go how did these run of shows go how did the U.S shows go how did the Europe shows go all of it give me the give me give me the the real songs here the real real sauce gets me in trouble sometimes and that's why sometimes like anti I know and in times like these I'm like damn will it up my bag to tell the truth um more than it already has give me the truth but it's it's a mixed bag I will say yes yes in a lot of places it is a show it's not a show everywhere okay that should show everywhere um there are a lot of people being overworked there are a lot of people being underpaid there are some people being paid and not doing the work uh I I just came off of two and a half months of touring in a year where we were one of the first bands to come back and really tour independently and I've seen everything from hey your show is being canceled because there weren't enough tickets sold to hey yeah the ticket sales are low only to find out that the ticket link actually went on sale three days before we got there oh my God uh oh yeah and the fans were the ones to tell us this and so that was yeah I never thought I would see a promoter get yelled at uh by fans and not like it was it was it was a long tour um there were also some slam dunks and some new markets uh that we weren't we weren't planning on at all um and shout out to Portsmouth New Hampshire um amazing I know right but uh there were other places where we'd never been there before that you know we were just like look we know we're gonna take a loss on this Europe um and we know we're gonna have to like fight to get back into this Market when it is time yeah um but I will say it was worth every dollar lost to get back over there having not been over there especially as an indie in almost five years I think a little over five years and ah it's frustrating to hear about independent music because what really is considered independent nowadays you know does it are you independent if you have a licensing deal with the major are you independent if you have a licensing deal with anybody are you independent if you're getting a help like what what really determines that and I know that's not really what the conversation is but I think no it definitely is I think that it has to be asked at the same time because if you're not asking those questions it's like ignoring the middle class and if you don't look at those mid-tier artists that can barely come back to work right now yeah even though it's just as necessary to their mental health and livelihood to play live as it is to you know the folks that play every week or the folks that play every night of the folks that are only on the grandest of stages um a lot of people are not going to survive this and I think what we're all being told in terms of oversaturation is really really one-sided thinking if like I really do think it's one-sided thinking I do think that yes we're in terms of traditional touring yeah we can't think the way that we once did it's there's very few bands that are out here doing um you know first time ever tours and selling out rooms or groups that don't have uh you know hits out right now be that online or on actual radio filling rooms it's I feel like all of the traditional rules do not matter but at the same time there are some people out here absolutely crushing it yeah um and is it because they have money not necessarily because there are some folks that have the biggest budgets out there that aren't doing that great that are seeing rooms uh not get filled up and I don't think that now is the time that we're going to really see the analysis or data that we truly want to see because all that we have to compare it to is one year that's not even finished back on um and a lot of people are honoring contracts from 2019 so in terms of like in terms of like whether your record came out or you had a good year it doesn't really matter yeah it doesn't really matter because like all the things that would be traditional are not to play and some of those contracts haven't expired and some of those artists can't fulfill them or some of those bands don't exist anymore or some of those artists are not able to tour in the capacity in which they once were or sure some of them are so big that sorry baby you just got bought out by ex-corporation that needs them more right now and so you're seeing with all of those things happening you're seeing a lot of forced industry shift where a lot of people that used to run I'll be shocked if they're running the same that they were this time two years from now yeah absolutely I'm curious um because yes we have been hearing a lot about oversaturation um as you know pollstar came out with some numbers um like last month saying you know 2022 if you look at the macro scale and the macro numbers best year on record believe it or not you know and it's like the the highest revenue generated across the industry uh ticket sales have gone up et cetera et cetera but those are like the superstars and that's what's generating kind of those macro numbers and then when I talk to more of these mid-level Indie artists the touring artists even the clubs I like we had I saw you played the Brooklyn Bowl we had Paul bocker who's the talent buyer of the broken bowl and on the show and you know across the board they're just like it's what's so crazy is like okay yes there's the oversaturation everybody gets back on the road at the same time and so fans now have to decide like where where they're going to spend their money and what shows they're going to go go to I mean that particular night it was us at Brooklyn Bowl or Nathaniel I think who was at Radio City Nathaniel here yeah and we share a lot of the fans with the night sweats even though we're on different you know spectrums or whatever and yep I'm I always feel responsible for my own numbers I feel like it would be very easy because at the end of the day there's millions of people in New York City there's hundreds of thousands of people and that doesn't necessarily mean like oh we're all going for the same you know listeners because their fans go one way once you get through their catalog and ours go a completely other way and that's a beautiful thing about music but I feel like again I feel like oversaturation is just one small part of it I think that folks are so tired and also um oversaturation is I I feel like a a ass word when you don't have access to your fans the way that she once did and I think that search engine optimization and I think that a lot of the algorithms and lack of access to your own fans without paying like I think it's kind of up that once upon a time and this is for me you know not even midsize at this point we were just getting started we would have access to maybe I don't know a couple thousand people at one time would see our stuff and this was like when we were first getting started and then right before covet a couple hundred people if we would go active now we're lucky if a couple doesn't see it but if we're asked to spend some money oh you might get you might get interaction with a couple thousand you spend this much you might see this you know and right it got to a point where especially during covid where I felt like I was in a constant battle with social media and with this kind of stuff but when we came back out on the road I realized it was far more valuable and I give this to any artist that's about to go out or waiting to go out sure it is in your best interest to say that to social media and Text Your Friends actually send an email to these people that you haven't seen in years uh let you know send a message to them uh they probably miss you just as much as you miss them especially the artists that I've toured for years and have whole ass lives in these other places you know um it's so much more powerful to just get that little and I know it sounds a little extra but I think there's real power in that DIY aspect of going around any algorithm and going back to basic communication and reaching out in like full-on human connection where you know it wasn't necessarily an ad but I told every single one of my bandmates look if it's one promoter per venue that may be maybe has enough money for an assistant that might also be the bartender that might also be the accountant that might also be the door guy who knows it doesn't matter however the club is functioning we have to trust that they're going to do what they can to the best of their ability and we have to work as if something on their end is going to up that night right and so that means that the least that we can do is post a flyer about our own show the least that we can do is record a real for every single City do we want to absolutely not but there are ways there are ways that bad stuff can be scheduled in post when it needs to without us ever getting online and interacting and I understand why so many artists don't want to get on and I understand why so many people that work on The Branding and advertising and labels whatever management side say it absolutely needs to happen because it is a part of the job now sure it is a part of the job now and it sucks but it is what it is however that doesn't mean that it gets in the complete way of creation that means that okay maybe on Mondays and Thursdays you do this and then the rest of your week is dedicated to this stuff right um and it doesn't have to take up any more of your week if you do all your cities and all your your assignments in one day and after doing that we would see the the increase happen like the basic stuff from doing our social media the way that we're supposed to right right um and I'd say real basic as in like we'd maybe see the needle jump for each one maybe two ticket sales maybe five if we're lucky taking the time to actually reach out to people taking the time to send out an email blast on our things that we own reaching out to people on patreon um going back to our now damn near dead Facebook accounts to actually go and like be like hey I know you don't necessarily see my my music algorithm anymore but let me bring this over here because as a human being it's actually somehow more powerful than this account that I have that has I don't know 10 000 times more followers on it right but I feel like when it comes to true just authentic art when it comes to something interesting something truly fun that people know that they want to be at it sounds ridiculous but I feel like you can always get around an algorithm I feel like you can always get around over saturation I feel like it's I feel like you can always get around all that because I've built a large chunk of my career doing that yeah is it always the easy way to do things absolutely not and it's really hard and it should not be like this but it's kind of low-key what happens when the people that don't make music are in charge of a lot of it absolutely there's so much there in so many gems um and I wanna I've been I've been taking notes because I want to touch on a lot of things that you just mentioned but um the big thing like getting around the algorithm and making sure that you have this direct access to fans and I appreciate that you you know brought up how you go to maybe some of the more non-traditional Avenues or just any way that you possibly can get to your fans and that's what uh you know it takes to make sure that they're gonna come out uh you mentioned email and text messaging I mean that seems to be kind of one of the more tried and true methods as social media platforms come and go arise and fall or the algorithms you know reward you and then squash and punish you and like you know like you said you they'll they'll open the floodgates and then they'll restrict access unless you pay um how have you maintained you know with the suffers especially now for 10 years or so that you've been touring um how have you maintained that access and that relationship to your fans has it been through text and email and if so like how have you been building that up is it just through all the social platforms and you just try to find ways to get to them is has there been like a strategy around that it's definitely been through everything I think it all started with the initial patreon that we did to uh launch our first album yeah and still having that email that original email list that got us started right and then from there touring it went from like an initial couple hundred folks to a couple thousand and it's just been growing over the years from that we always try to have excuse me we should have something that people can easily join the list from the merge table or on the website or any of our social media links it always links back to it because at the end of the day that's the only way that I I feel like they're truly Gonna Hear directly from us is like from the stuff that we control and you know over the last especially the last year in some of the podcasts that I've done with other people in the industry especially on the executive side and retired executive side um it's usually that same response where it's always been about the content that we own as creators and you know leaning on companies like meta and Instagram kind of make me feel the same way that I feel about leaning on Spotify and on all these other places where it's like I feel I feel many ways about it and it would be different if we all got the same access as creators but we truly but we truly don't and we never have and uh it's it's a frustrating conversation that I've had with many artists um because sometimes you sound like a real hater when someone's having their moment and uh for some reason you decide that inequity must be the conversation at that time right and sometimes it's hard to take a pause when you're on your moment of success to think about uh the inclusivity and and just weight of what others have to deal with and how you could be using your platform to bring them in a bit higher right and um when I talked about the consequences of talking about just anything I mean I've dealt with consequences from talking about things like basic uh pay inequity at the festivals and I thought that that was obvious but it wasn't you know and even now it's you hear about these people posting their Tick Tock salaries and all of that and I'm like bet you won't see that with no festival lineup right but you bet you won't Yeah Yeah you mentioned um ownership and you know you I loved the um I I loved the yada yada music video and how it's kind of you know the song Especially and then I saw the video uh but you know the song is is a big um not not so subtle uh you to kind of uh the industry and you know the movers and shakers and all that and then the video where I love it's like this this uh Saloon style where uh you know the uh you're being trying to be pressured and to sign this horrible contract and and it even like puts in there like signing away your Masters and your publishing and uh and then you pop into the the room as Ms DIY style which I love that um and then you have the good lawyer like everyone's got their titles and then they come in and in the end you sign a licensing deal uh and then the label guy who's on his way out kind of comes around and comes back in and then more gems are put on on the table after you you guys agree to a licensing deal I want to know how much of that has been kind of part of your journey through the industry where where you presented a deal where you sign away your Master's in your publishing did you negotiate to the licensing or is this kind of more um kind of something that you are were dreaming about or how much of this is based on your your career oh man so the story that I definitely wrote um thankfully is not my career thankfully I didn't have the deal with um signing anything over or having anything be that dark I've always been pretty no-nonsense and so uh when that kind of stuff comes near me it's I usually am surrounded by really good lawyers and people that that really care about uh me and my trajectory and my career and um there was nothing like this visually that I could remember in a music video growing up and all I could think was man if you have no interest in Reading any of these music industry books that I recommend um for whatever reason maybe I can send you this music video that's less than four minutes and it can give you like four things to at least avoid you know I remember when we were first learning about uh contracts I went to Texas Southern for a little bit and they had just launched their music business program and uh one of the professors I had was you know if you're just trying to figure it out and you're learning all the words that can be in a contract learn the word perpetuity if you see that just go ahead and just throw the pin away and go get a help go get some help go get some behind just yeah he's like but even before you even grabbed a pen you should have somebody there that understands every word and can talk through it with you and for when the first when the suppers first started um it was in terms of paperwork a bit of a headache for sure with 10 people right and we don't have a traditional uh layout when it comes to how we get paid and how we you know every band's different and has whatever their agreement says but when we first started it was like a 10-way even split with everything we did and so I think it made everything a lot easier and we didn't really have to do any overthinking when it came to a lot of stuff um but since that first started we've had uh departures and had to bring in new members it's meant a lot of Education with our old catalog versus what we do now and sure uh because we bring in a lot of uh writers all of that even though we're all constantly learning internally how it all works and how to do a better job of it with every deal be it independently with a lot of the only deals that we have ever had have been licensing deals uh our first album uh we own independently outright the original 10 members and then um our second album was a licensing deal with shanaki and our current album as a licensing deal with missing piece uh who also serves as our publicity firm and you know that was a whole other journey in the industry and like what you know and I was like I didn't even know that that could be a thing but like as I was working on this story with the director you know there were certain things that I was so insistent on because I wanted it to be a memory in your mind so like I told him I wanted the contract to be so long it reminds you of a CVS receipt and so like it was just yeah those kind of things but like it can be that over overwhelming when you're about to sign something off like this and I try to explain a young artist when they're coming in that like you're all special and the only reason that anyone's ever trying to sign a deal with you is because you have the capability to do something you know so so special and so great and you know you have to treat your art as such and there's no there is absolutely no shade in people that go the major label route or go to get publishing deals like there's there's real stability that can come from that and there is a lot of risk that can come from that but like I don't think there's a wrong way or a right way I think at the end of the day it's all about education and protection and you know if somebody watches this video and you know they're like all right and you know they get a little scared but it encourages them to go and get a better attorney before they sign up with somebody you know then our job is done our little bit of music education you know has occurred and that's really what we wanted to do how do you like what have you learned over the years um in how you split everything up with the members of the suffers I mean that's that's fascinating to me I didn't realize that you did a 10-way even split from the beginning I could imagine uh on in some ways that could be easier but in some ways as you alluded to it can be more complicated as members come and go especially when it comes to publishing I was looking at some of the credits I don't know how accurate they are on Spotify but like just the suffers were kind of listed as co-writers on some of these and I was I'm curious to hear how it works now and what you've learned over the years when it comes to splitting up Mass royalties publishing um you know who's who's shouldering the costs that go into this uh you know live show Revenue all of that well that's a much longer conversation than what we have perfect for today um but I can I can go with you know the first question which goes into just like the basic writing right sure um it can be you know financially nonsensical to someone that is used to being paid a certain way and it can also be very financially beneficial to a co-writer coming in to work with us because at the end of the day prior to 2020 the way that we made most of our money was through live shows sure it really doesn't matter who we were making music with or who was getting the bigger cut because at the end of the day if you get a million dollars sync and you only got 10 percent of that ain't that bad is it right and so that's never really been the oh where it has no live shows have been where it's at for a while but um with this last album this was probably the most creative uh split album we've ever had there's certain songs where you know the collaboration with Diane Warren that's a 100 Diane Warren song you know we're not gonna get that however it still brings cave insane amount of people that know that she just doesn't give songs out like that like she wrote this for me um to our fan base right and so to me I'm like okay whatever but then I start listening to other artists whose business is not mine to share um who have had similar deals and sometimes it makes sense that way right but we have other songs where like you might see for example take me to the good times you'll see uh Stephen and myself and when we first wrote that demo at their house um that song was a three-way split right I take it home Steve and Maria still get a bigger chunk than I now get because of a former investment that I made with my business partners in this band however even though I don't make the same amount of money as Steven Maria because I'm bringing it back home to this project the song gets expanded upon by my band members and then you know it ends up getting the brene brown sink and all this other stuff that it ends up doing I'm just like huh okay let me keep going because while the sufferers has been uh the project to get me to where I'm at right now my main focus has been becoming a writer not only for myself for other people uh producing for myself and other people it's been doing these types of collaborations and showing that while I don't live in a traditional industry City I can keep up with the best of them in any of these cities which I now can show especially off of this last albums collaborator list definitely but when it comes down to the splits it really now just depends on the song you know if we go back to a song that no longer has a band member in it that was in the band at the time they get a different split than they once did depending on who wrote the song right okay this is the only project that I have that's like this and um again I say it because I think it's important for people to know that your band agreement or your business agreement you have with your collaborators is whatever you want it to be and while some people would probably be like oh man I don't know if I do that financially it has saved so many heartaches it has saved so many just headaches that could have easily shown up had we not been in setup the way that we are sure and it's also protected us just as as people and as friends and um even though you know shoot uh half of the band that we started with is no longer in this band sure uh it's still a good place and I think it's because we did take that time uh to protect ourselves so you know now as I go into these other Journeys and working with other folks and you know I see oh you know I'm I'm making more money when I do songs with this person or this person or whatever I'm not going to be able to tour with them I'm not going to be able to do what I want to do with them and I believe that multiple revenue streams is definitely where it's at in terms of overall sustainability for us as artists going into the next uh generation of everything not just depending on touring or depending on sync and Licensing because that to me is just like going to the casino right but if you go to the casino there's nothing wrong going to casino but it's like if you show up with way more money you got more chances to win a lot of money a lot more money as well right and so that's how I look at it if I'm writing at the pace at which I'm writing um I'm trying to just leave by my own example and the example of some of my friends that are out here doing it much better probably with a bit more funding but uh just in terms of overall output of the projects I'm just like look if I can release it I need to be releasing it because that seems to be where the overall return that I want to see uh is and I don't know what the world the the future of traditional releases yeah and I I'm trying to care I really am I'm really trying to care but when you have folks what's his name I really uh the Spotify CEO Daniel who goes on Daniel Eck yeah who goes on about uh how we're gonna have to release two to three times more yeah uh to see the same return even though the fans don't have that money supposedly to go to the tours as it is I'm like yeah okay and also it's like where is the funding that I come from to create and finish these other two to three releases so right and and that I mean just to give contacts for people that uh aren't familiar with with what he said um you know he was saying and this came out a few years ago it was basically like you can't be uh releasing music once every three years like you once could and um you know there was a lot of pushback rightfully so from artists saying like who are you Tech Guy to tell me how to make my art and I think what was you know maybe misconstrued is it was it's that in in how like you said release strategy has evolved and it continues to evolve um you know I'm not a Daniel act or Spotify Defender but to give context to it all I think it's um he wasn't saying this is how you need to make your art it was if you want to play our game which you don't have to let's put that out for the record you don't have to play the Spotify game but if you want to play the Spotify game what our algorithms will reward you for is if you put out releases frequently now uh the releases don't have to be a full album like yeah I don't believe he was saying you have to you have to release a full 10 song album every other month that's that's insane uh that's not just not feasible it's now we've gotten into this release um uh cycle where you know your what's encouraged is putting out a song a single every four to six weeks or something like that artists are continuing to create in the way that makes sense to them which is like let's go into the studio for a couple months let's make a record for you know a year or something and then uh we'll Tour on it and do that and that just feels more natural to artists but the Spotify game they've given the manual and the blueprint and they're like if you want to win it Spotify one song every six weeks is the way to win at Spotify and with that release stress you know schedule so it is you know it's hard to chase that algorithm like you've talked about at the beginning because like you know now with Tick Tock it's like you know and and the way that Instagram has evolved and Facebook and all of it it's kind of like are we going to chase continue to Chase or are we going to lead absolutely that is like the real question like artists have always LED historically that is why people gravitate towards artists is because artists are leaders and I think too many artists are getting caught up in this um chaos of social media of uh the tech Giants of just the influences of the algorithm and we artists are losing track of what is important and why they're doing what they're doing and I think at the end of the day you know if you staying true to yourself and you are leading in the way that makes sense deeply to you it's going to work out and fans are going to gravitate towards you and you're going to have lifelong fans and it's like the difference between an artist like you who has a sustainable long-lasting career with Die Hard fans that will be with you for the rest of your life and the Flash and the pan moments the people that are chasing Tick-Tock Trends or chasing this trend or chasing that algorithm or something like that and I think it's an important check that a lot of artists need to get once in a while to remember oh we don't have to play that game we don't have to do the tick tock dance or the Tick Tock Trend or whatever the thing is that's hot this week that's going to come and go and there are people who want to do that and that's fine God bless them but like for artists that want to lead and look you know five ten years in the future not five ten minutes in the future that's the strategy that I think needs to be maintained I agree yeah no I completely agree with you and yeah the Spotify algorithm bus just yeah I mean they again if I I could go on all day if the platform if the platform yeah we're equal around the board I'd have had I would have different feelings about it um and I've had people be like what do you mean I'm like I have multiple projects that I work within and when I open One account on Spotify artists I see a whole different world of things yeah versus my account on another and I have friends that have you know tens Millions more listeners than me and you know you open theirs and it's like yeah anyway yeah no no and I I had uh Sam from Spotify on the show and I you know I pressed him on it and I asked him like our major label artists getting preference and priority and he kind of screws around and resources and all of that and you know and I'm like do they get guaranteed inclusion in the official editorial playlist and it was like well no they don't I'm just like all right well the data says otherwise but that's fine like it it's you know I have my friends who are on major labels and and it's you know it's it's awfully curious that all their releases do get a lot of love and a lot of my Indie friends releases don't and it's just kind of you know now the new number is there's a hundred thousand songs uploaded a day to Spotify so it's kind of like yeah there's a discrepancy you keep on releasing every six weeks you'll catch our algorithm right exactly it is it is a rat race for sure um I wanna I'm curious about you know this this uh sink that you had with brene brown on her podcast um on Spotify on Spotify right yeah her that's right her podcast is exclusive to Spotify now um how did that come to be do you have a sync agent was that through your your you know that was super name she's just a fan yeah so she amazing uh we're friends with uh Gina Chavez and Carrie Rodriguez who do her unlocking US music for her other podcasts I think that's an apple um who are all they're both from Austin and Texas and she wanted to have another artist for her uh dear to lead podcast and they both recommended the suffers and one thing led to another and she was in the DMS and I'm like oh this is weird so yeah we do have someone on our team um who assists dramatically with our Pub admin her name is Roxanne old him and it's just amazing at what she does and um but I think that world really does take a village I don't think it's ever just one person every sink that this suffers have ever gotten has come from different places we've had some come directly from someone on the show wanting us to uh just have a song that they had heard somewhere on there uh to someone you know a friend of a friend or whatever it's it never makes sense to me I'm grateful every time it happens yeah um and I wish I wish everybody could experience that and I hope every artist does get to experience that absolutely um let's talk about your team a little bit um you you mentioned you have a slightly non-traditional um relationship kind of with the the label well I guess call it a label or licensing deal PR Company all of that missing piece um you know you have mid-citizen for management uh mint talent group for booking agency representation um talk to me about your philosophy about bringing on team members and maybe how you have settled on who you want to work with they have to want to be there that Baseline that's a big one I think something can really be said about when you have a team team member that's there for the money and not for the music uh from the way that they work for you for the way that they show up and we are very very lucky to have the team that we do uh mid-citizens based in New Orleans and so I just feel like there's a lot less and a lot more kindness uh compared to what I see in a lot of other cities in terms of who works for me um kindness really leads the way like we all work we all work really hard and I mean that for everybody that's in this industry if we're if we're constantly seeing one another at the next step as we continue in our careers like put some respect on one another's name and like really like throw that energy somewhere else it'll be a much more positive space but um I feel as though everybody that works for me you know I learn from them all the time like it's not a place where they can't talk to me it's not a place where um people are made to feel some type of way or whatever about making mistakes or whatever like yeah it gets real sometimes and like I will always be honest with them and share my opinions with them when I see something or when I feel something is like off but at the same time I trust every single person that works for me um especially when they do go out of their way to give me uh the reality of whatever situation it is I'm dealing with be that the cruel existence that is touring as an independent musician right now especially with a band this big holy yeah um also like the fact that you know hey you know our album's doing really good in terms of the press cycles and what everything that's going on but we can only reach so much you know of an audience with what we have right now and what we have access to and it's like to go broke reaching my audience man that I'd rather like put more time focus and dedication into building up an authentic one rather than buying one from Zuckerberg or any of these other that Really Don't Care About Us truth the truth that's great I mean that's um kindness I mean and and making sure that they're they're there for the right reasons I mean that's that's so huge and I think a lot of people might lose track of that when quote unquote powerful people might approach them and they might just look at the roster and not look at the people um you know is that uh with with at least um I guess mid-citizen based out of um New Orleans was this something that happened naturally I know they have tank in the bangas I know that they work with um a Big Frida both New Orleans based artists um I know they have Loca Connie Out of Philly who's another kind of Road dogs I've seen them over the last 10 years or so around the country um what was kind of did they were they at a show was this just like a how long have you been working with them oh we started working with them at the end of 2018. okay and uh it was not it wasn't a show that they saw it was like the very very ending of a show I guess it was uh so Meredith was she was formally working as an agent at High Road touring before she transferred over to the management world but she was there to say goodbye I guess to a bunch of her co-workers and we were at a music festival out in Sonoma that um Avett Brothers in Lake Street were headlining and uh it was a wine festival and at that point our uh closing music was big Frida's ass everywhere I think it was I'm almost certain and so Meredith walks in she's like who's playing Big Freedia and we were like oh yeah that's our closing music and then um the conversation just kind of went from there and at that point we had been very actively looking for a new manager and I'd had a I'd call it a uh one of the worst weeks that I've ever had in my career uh just in terms of seeing how bad the industry can be When You're vulnerable and I went to Nashville to go and try to find the right manager and it was just snake after snake after snake and it was funny how when I wasn't even looking for it the universe was like oh here's this awesome person that is perfect for what you need right now and um it's really been such a really good partnership with them and um you know we're very very lucky to have both Meredith read everybody that's at mid-citizen working for us and yeah uh representing us and I mean that that's the same for everybody on our team we've been with mint um just a little over a year almost two years and you know same thing it's it's nice to just um and not saying anything negative about any of the people we've had on our teams before because they're all incredible people I feel like anybody taking the chance to work in this industry you're you're all nuts but at the same time there's something really um incredible to have like the selflessness to really uh go out there and represent another artist to you know the best of your capability and so yeah and not know what's gonna happen you know and so yeah um being at this stage of my career I'm very very grateful to be here and um again just really lucky for the team that I are really lucky really grateful for the team that I have and I just look forward to continuing to grow with them that's great yeah you know I I was down in New Orleans um for Nola music tech uh earlier this year and I saw Reed and big free to speak on a panel and it was Reid who who uh owns um mid-citizen and uh it it was clear that he and the ethos around the company was very different from what I experienced at many management companies here in La um and it was there was an energy and a passion and uh and the in a kindness like you mentioned that it's just it's it's rarer to see um and I really appreciated seeing that and then I spoke on a panel uh with with Sean uh Montgomery of mid citizen two and and similar with her and she was talking to me about kind of uh you know what she was doing with tank and the bangas and and it was it's like like you mentioned I think a lot of the industry uh gets in our bubbles especially in La we we feel like the whole universe revolves around just like what is in these hubs and lose track of that there is industry important industry not just you know artists that are uh everywhere um that can be forces of good and they can kind of teach the others in the industry uh how it can be and the relationships that you can form that can be more genuine and um and just I guess just just um rooted in in a space that uh where the intentions are more Pure or at least they are um rooted in kindness and that's that's maybe something that a lot of people in the industry lose track of just just by the sheer nature of like you know um what is ingrained in them early on and when they're Rising through the Rings or when they're at the agencies or where the intentions are are oftentimes solely Financial based and it can be cut throat in a way that is uh not healthy uh like emotionally but also not healthy just for the business at large just for the industry I mean we're all connected and we're all in this together um and so it was refreshing to get out of LA and to see uh other companies that operate slightly differently I love that yeah I love that yeah um so I mean I guess just overall as uh who have been some of the guiding forces throughout uh your career um maybe in addition to some of the uh you know team members that you've had just that have that have influenced you or guided you um in a way that kind of brought you to where you are now uh my family I'm very lucky to have a supportive family um none of them did music professionally but you know they've been very very supportive of me my friends who you know they really keep me in check and I think growing up in a city like Houston it's just it's real you know so when I leave I go other places um it took you know my first few weeks in La it took me a long time to realize that oh maybe or see you later means no not maybe or that I'll see you later um but like at the same time I feel the biggest influence has been my city and the people that have made it out of here and continue to show me you know what that looks like for me and where I can go from here amazing well cam I I really appreciate you being so candid and um and sharing um all of your perspective your incredible perspective and your thoughts uh around the industry and being so transparent with everything uh not a lot of artists are and uh that is uh why I I knew you're gonna go there and that is why you're uh you're here and I really appreciate you doing I just tell the truth you know we need more of that and so I I really appreciate that um I have one final question that I ask everyone who comes on the show and uh that is what does it mean to you to make it in the new music business um to make it in the new music business if we're talking in terms of financial you know that means just having the bills on autopay and going to Target whenever I feel like it um in terms of I think my overall happiness is knowing that I constantly have to learn from this industry no matter what I think I know about it um making it means that I'm still here and creating with younger artists and uh even creating with you know it doesn't matter what the age is I've always been impressed you know by artists like Mavis or Herbie Hancock or Stevie Wonder the ones that can come back and work with the younger artists and immerse themselves without like you know skipping a beat I want to have that type of career where it's you know yes there's always a stage part of what I do but there's always that Music Creation part in the studio where I'm creating and I'm making the path easier for whoever comes next I love that cam Franklin thank you so much thank you have a good rest of your day [Music] today's episode was edited by Maxton Hunter theme music by brass Roots district and produced by all the great people at Ari's take

2022-10-21 07:19

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