How Lawrence Got Live Nation To End Merch Fees - The New Music Business Podcast

when you as a fan spend $40 on a ticket between the service fees and the whatever you at least like the feeling of feeling that you're supporting a band that you love and if you find out that only $12 of that 40 is actually at the end of the day going into the band's pocket and then you and then you say something like well yeah because it's tough you know because this venue is taking uh 20% of our merch gross which really comes out to like 40% of our merch profit and then and then seven more hands go up they're like wait what I think also because people in general when they're supporting a band at our level they want to feel like when they're buying a shirt it's going to the band and that they feel there's a good feeling there to find out that that band is maybe not being treated the way you understood them to be treated or whatever that's upsetting to you as like a fan or a consumer or someone who feels invested in this small thing when you do years of touring and you have hundred hundreds of these conversations it just kind of builds inside of like something needs to happen here like we can't keep just doing this forever what's going on welcome to the new music business I'm your host Ari HST and author of how to make it in the new music business the book Third Edition is out now however you listen to books how we find books or read books yes people still read books uh but I do have an audio version if you prefer to listen to books these days today my guests are Gracie Lawrence Clyde Lawrence and Jordan Cohen from the band Lawrence Gracie and Clyde are brother sisters and Jordan is is not technically related but uh they've all known each other well well Clyde and and Jordan have known each other since they've been six years old and they've been in this band now uh touring almost consistently uh the three of them plus uh five others so eight toal total musicians for 10 years uh they have had songs uh their song don't lose sight reached top 40 hit number 33 on top 40 uh it was featured in the international Microsoft commercial they performed on Jimmy Kimel live Late Show with Steven col bear they performed on The Today Show uh they have appeared at they they played Coachella and bonaroo and outsidelands and Firefly hangout and Summerfest uh they played last call with Carson Dy uh they are a uh touring Enterprise but like a DIY touring Enterprise and we're going to talk all about how they've made it work from the beginning of playing small small clubs with eight people and how they made that work to today where they're now on tour playing stadiums yes stadiums supporting the Jonas Brothers uh this tour is massive there they're they're opening every single show on the Jonas Brother 's tour and uh playing stadiums it's it's pretty wild um you know personally uh I've seen them countless times everywhere from a tiny tiny tiny stage at bonaroo in I want to say 2015 uh to the hotel Cafe uh playing in front of 100 150 people in 2016 um to uh actually I my my band brassroots District opened up for them uh when they played the terram um in gosh that was probably 2018 in La um they're one of my favorite bands and I have been a fan of them uh for years uh as long as long as since I I first saw them at bonaroo way back when until today um where their music's great and they're they're releasing new singles uh you should check out their new songs uh that have just been released off the the new record they're working on but I think why a lot of you are tuning in today is because Clyde Lawrence and Jordan they gave a testimony to the United States Senate uh a few months back earlier this year about Live Nation and about what it means to be kind of a a touring operation and they pulled the curtain back for the legislators for the Senators while sitting next to some of the top brass at Live Nation on kind of the inequities of the live music industry and how uh just the realities rather of of how touring works or doesn't work and how the uh deals are structured which most people don't really realize and how much money is taken off the top and taken away from the artist uh namely taken out of their merch and and how you know for so long it has just been standard practice that venues and promoters take 20% sometimes 30 40% of the artists merch which is for the record completely unethical and unfair it's just been a standard practice now the big news of the month is that uh Live Nation has revealed that this new initiative this on the road again initiative uh in partnership with Willie Nelson that a lot of their small to midsize clubs around the US and Canada um there's about 75 of these clubs they are doing away with merch fees merch cuts no longer will they be taking a cutof the artist merch and not only that they will be helping artist cover their tour expenses offering $1,500 for the headliners and the openers which is pretty fantastic and pretty incredible uh on top of the show compensation we talk all about how we got here uh Clyde and Jordan tell the story from how they got to appear in front of the Senate how they testimon and then also the conversations that they have had with Live Nation over the months to get us to this point so this is an exclusive interview you're not not going to hear this anywhere else this is something that you know I've been friends with uh Clyde and Gracie uh for for years now and uh I was so happy and honored that they decided to come on the new music business podcast and tell their story and uh discuss how they made this real change work so strap in uh this is jam-packed and I know you're going to enjoy it uh you can find the band Lawrence on all the social platforms um it's Lauren spelled l a w n c just search them on on all the platforms um and check out their music their new music their music is fantastic uh you can find all of us that make the show happen at AR take on the socials on Tik Tok and Instagram and X you can find me at arand on Instagram and X formally known as Twitter visit AR take.com get on the email list that is the best place to kind of stay in touch and get notified about new episodes and the new music business and all the new episodes that we release we'll send you an email about it get on the email list but if you can right now just pause this uh pause the episode right now hit the Subscribe button hit the follow button leave us a festar review on Spotify or apple podcast or however you're listening to the show right now if it's on YouTube give us a thumbs up subscribe if you want us in your in your feed and uh yeah we'll keep these going all right let's kick into the show what's up Lawrence welcome to the show thanks for having us yeah um I'm so happy that I get all three of you today and first off Gracie how are you feeling I saw that you were so sick a few nights ago that you actually had to miss the show is that right yeah um we're on tour right now opening for the Jonas Brothers and it would take it takes a lot to like make me not perform um I think I had food poison it was a it was a rough it was a rough one and a moving vehicle that's probably the thing you want the least I'd say it's probably the thing that's the most annoying so um yeah it was not good I'm okay right now I'm like ex I think I'm like exhausted from it but I'm okay so how did you guys do the show without Gracie I mean is this the first show in the history of Lawrence that didn't have one of the two of you third this is the third show that we've done without Gracie ever we did one show went on our Tour opening for John bellan without Gracie because she had an acting gig that she couldn't get out of we had okay one um we had one show opening for uh Charlie poth in which Gracie had coid so we've actually had some pretty high-profile gigs and I always just try to um just try to like we make a set list based around the songs that I sing I give C my clothes and I just say run with it yeah yeah exactly but for this for this one we do have a new single that we recently put out called I'm confident that I'm in Secure that I uh have never attempted to sing before and I did my best to do it um and it was pretty funny I have a video of it that I'll probably post yeah it's great for the band because it really makes it spiced up we get to see yeah nice I yeah sweet I I want to see that video um speaking of also that's true they did one you yeah it was so exhausting because we like didn't think through the set list in terms of like transition so I just was so EXA like I somehow just sang I I think I just sang so much in such a short period of time it was the most exhausting thing I've ever done but oh man yeah well other than that uh how has this tour been uh opening for the Jonas Brothers in what are you playing stadiums that I see I saw you played Yankee Stadium I saw you playing uh I mean yeah how is is this are these the biggest venues you've ever played yeah definitely I think that the smallest show on this tour is around the size of the biggest show we'd ever played before that um wow it's been it's been really epic I mean yeah it's just crazy to play in front of that many people every night and hopefully even if a small percentage of them who are brand new to us are like becoming either Lawrence fans or at least intrigued enough by Lawrence to be open to becoming Lawrence fans then it's a really then it's great for the band um but also just on an experience level like we're such um Logistics junkies and such like people that love to like see how things work and so like you know to be able to like see a tour of this scale I mean it's really the Jonas Brothers put on like the most like amazingly high production like Arena Stadium concert to be able to just like get an inside look every day on how something like that comes together in a new city every day has just been cool on an operational level too I I love uh how you guys uh function as a band um and I love this new docu series that you're rolling out um I just watched this morning the one you released yesterday on the drunkest show you've ever done and that was [ __ ] amazing um that was that was hilarious and as a Dodgers fan a hardcore Dodgers fan I really appreciated how much you trolled the Astros fans and and the Houston audience on that because uh they are [ __ ] cheaters and the Dodgers were the ones on the losing end of that stick so I'm like every time you said that I'm like yes Clyde get him get him I think the funniest part of that to me is just like drunk Clyde as like an entity like I like it's just an alternate person and you don't get like most people when they get drunk like it's a really bad side of their personality that comes or some some like specific thing for you it was like specifically you were just like mad at Injustice about in baseball very specific drunk is very specific yeah you know just that's that's what happens I guess no that was fantastic um but also what I I watched the another episode um where you guys kind of pulled back the curtain on your operations and it was cool to see I mean really how DIY the operation is I mean you guys are playing you know when you're headlining tours you're playing sizable rooms I mean you know thousands of people a night in a lot of these cities um to to just see how how much you guys are so handson with it all uh was actually really inspiring and someone who you know Geeks out about you know the production and behind the scenes and just kind of how it all works um talk a little bit about how your operation functions and and works these days yeah um yeah I mean I think you know we try to operate we're an eight piece band and have been the entire time you know the three of us are just three out of eight people in the band and so from the beginning we knew that from a financial standpoint from a like literal space in a vehicle or in a room standpoint like that's already a lot of people you'd never start like a tech startup with eight people like from the beginning like uh so we just kind of thought okay if we're all gonna do this then we need to all bring a lot of skills to the table and I think we also really trusted that everyone in the band had a lot of skills a lot of of the things that go into running a band are things that um sometimes other bands take on other people for because they they don't know how to do those things but we were just like we think we can know how to do a lot of these things from being our own production manager or tour manager or business manager or um merch manager or VIP coordinator um you know those are all tasks that it's just kind of like oh like who who feels like they can kind of run that and then we do have a lot of elements of a traditional team like we do have management we do have an agent and a lawyer those are kind of the main ones um that we have but no label right now no label well we're on we are partnered with John bellan and his label Beautiful Mind records but that's not a like a uh label in a traditional sense John Bell you're uh producer of uh the last couple records in the new yeah well so I mean kind of all of our recorded music we've always kind of self-produced but always had like another producer that we worked with on it so like on our first album like Eric Eric crno produced that album um we we also like did a lot of the production but like worked with him on it and then our second album we had another amazing producer named Eli Cruz and then for our third album Hotel TV we worked with John and the relationship kind of Blossom Beyond just him helping with the music but to him also just becoming such a like not only such a close friend but also somebody that got really involved in helping us grow our business and helping us um promote ourselves um and you know he's just such a person with so much creativity in the business and you know on and off the court so to speak um so like we signed this this label deal with him with his with his it was a brand new label at the time Beautiful Mind records but functionally the band operates independently it's just kind of us and John against the world Vibes um and uh yeah so everybody everybody in the band kind of has their own different talents that they use to like fill a role that a lot of other bands might be bringing an entire person to do that job on the sure and we found that it's worked for us and then of course there are times when you can't like at a certain point uh you know we can't do our own sound while we're on stage so we need a sound person we thought about it thought about we like brought on yeah exactly we brought on an amazing sound person but probably like later than bands usually would and now like we have an awesome sound person that and even their role is more than just doing sound and then like same thing with lights at some point we brought on an amazing lighting director and she's incredible and she often does more than what just the traditional job of doing lights would be it's just kind of about adding people to the team with that sort of can do attitude so are you touring uh with 10 people now uh in a vehicle is that kind of what the operation is it's 12 on a bus so um we're a full we're a full bus yeah it's tour bus oh yeah tour bus wow is this the first have you guys done tour bus tours in the past yeah this is our third I think um but this is definitely the longest run on a bus which is really helpful nice um yeah in that docu series I saw were you guys touring in a Tesla I was trying to figure out what was happening there because you had no the guys that uh were on tour doing the documentary because we in on that tour we were 11 people in a van and that's not including the docu the the documentary team which was like two to three people so at most points they had a separate vehicle that was sometimes just like a rented car or whatever so yeah I like they had a Tesla for a window of time and I just like rode with them sometimes someone from the band would ride in their car either just for fun or because they wanted to like interview one of us in their car or whatever yeah I saw you were making uh you're making like little little Productions on there on the screen there yeah I was so drunk I honestly don't even remember that watching I was like wow I did a pretty good job with that got it okay so you have 12 so other than the 10 uh with your front house engineer your lighting designer who are the other two right now there's eight of us then we have yeah LD uh we have front of house we have um a video wall person I don't know what the technical title for that job is but someone who's helping us out um on video wall and like helping out in a lot of other capacities and who am I missing photo video photo video yeah like social media photo video um nice but yeah like even those people's roles are like not strict we're not just like our our video wall guy is not just like showing up and like doing the video wall like he's working also he's also like helping set the stage kind of acting as like a um you know just general um like Tech of the of the gear and like helping set the stage put down the set list like a number of everyone kind of has a number of different tasks and I think as Clyde said like when we're bringing people on board like that's not something we spring on them when they arrive on the tour that's like in the process of trying to figure out who might be a good fit for us to work with like first and foremost someone whose personality we just feel like we want to hang out with all the time because that's a big part being on tour is like a lot of time together um but also you know in advance of bringing someone on tour obviously being super upfront with like the job you do is the job you do we also tend to be a band that like when someone else needs help with something like that you know stepping in and helping is that something you're comfortable is that something you're excited about like those kinds of things um cool and getting a gauge for people's interest in that um because that isn't for everyone and that's totally fair and respectable too I think it's also important to say that like we don't really hire crew for a tour we've always really looked at it as hiring like the next member of the lifelong team family family it's a family band that extends to every new member and I think when you have that attitude and you treat everyone as being part of a team people are just willing to go above and beyond rather than just showing up and doing their one specific hourong job clocking yeah well and and that's a really great point and and I appreciate you mentioned that because I mean you know I know uh your guys's history for a while I've been following you and and you know uh friends for a while but for people that aren't as familiar it's it's fascinating to me I think that all eight of you have kind of been there since the beginning and the three of you have been there since what you were 13 and then like the two of you have been there since the beginning yeah like seven or six oh just kidding even earlier so it's like yeah Zer right yeah my brother and then I met Jordan when I was two yeah wow I don't remember it I used to see Gracie running around as a two-year-old trying to sing and I'm like one day one day kid for Jordan and Clyde to listen to me I actually remember this sing the entire Christina agulara yep that first Christina angular album I'd be like like before I could like speak I'd be like guys like like sit down we're like just trying to play Xbox yeah this is amazing so well but but speak to that a little bit because I that's really unique that you have a band of eight people that one has lasted this long um and that you know and and it speaks to a lot you might not consider use this word but it speaks to a lot of the culture of the operation and kind of the Enterprise is just like that you've maintained this tightly knit group of eight uh I mean most people don't stick in jobs this long let alone you know and the fact that you guys and this is one of the most grueling uh professions on planet Earth and you've been able to make it work for this long with with eight people yeah it is pretty it is pretty cool I often cite it as like one of the biggest points of Pride for me and us as a band I think and not and you know like what if you had asked me 10 years ago if that same group of eight people would still be going now I'd be like I really hope so but like you know life happens who knows and like the fact that it has worked out that way is like definitely by Design to your point and like speaks to culture but also like speaks to each individual person like putting in a lot of work to make it be something that still works for them but yeah I mean so Gracie and I were siblings Jordan we've known since we were little little kids our drummer Sam was someone that I went to like middle school high school with and then to college with as well and then he was a little bit older than me so I met him in middle school jazz band um and I met him then too but I was just a bunch of years young yeah we met when we were both in middle school and then and then we were in high school together and then he went to Brown and and then I went to Brown a couple years later and he was still there and then through him I met a few of his friends that then became members of the band and then I met a couple other guys that were in the band so everybody was the the latest entrance to the band we were actually just talking about this because we just hit the 10year anniversary remember you were on your phone you're like oh what was 10 years ago today we just hit the 10year anniversary of the first show that um our most recently entered band member played if that makes sense like I think it was ksh K first show as our basist was like exactly 10 years ago to the day like a couple weeks ago and so every band member has been in this band for at least 10 years essentially um wow and there are in college we had some other people that like you know like we had like multiple different people that knew all the drum parts or the bass Parts because you know if someone had like a essay or something then like I could just text everyone who's free so to shout out to all those other awesome people that were part of like the broader Collective of it for those first couple years but every single member of this eight person group has been a part of it for over 10 years now and I'm only 18 so that's like crazy right but so it's um but I mean it also like speak a little bit more to because you know most people don't see how the meat is made and the fact that all eight of You Are wearing several different hats and have since the beginning I mean just from my vantage point that seems to me the only way that you could possibly make something like this work with so many people I mean I honestly have no idea how you made it work in the early days with eight people playing CL like I saw you guys at the hotel Cafe uh which is in if people don't know in La uh uh 85 cap room back in um actually I remember the day because it was the day that uh they uh that Trump that that like Trump won the election or something the day after it was [ __ ] nuts and and Grace you wore your your uh nasty lasty woman t-shirt on and it was a [ __ ] crazy day it was a whirlwind yeah uh so wild um because everyone was just like an alternate reality and an alternate universe there um but like you're playing small rooms like that I how did you make it work then with eight people well we started you know our our gigs in college basement and those are not venues and they're also probably like fire hazards and absolutely not fit for eight people to perform let alone one really um so we I think that we kind of cut our teeth so to speak in those environments where like just learn how to be as engaging of a performer you learn how to perform in ridiculous conditions um that are not conducive to necessarily sounding good but learning how to try to sound the best in those kinds of rooms um very limited space but still learning how to take up the space that you can so I think like a lot of very valuable lessons were learned in those first few years of just playing shows while I was in high school and CAD was in college um and then we pretty much directly took those skills learned and applied them as soon as we hit the road the following year really um as soon as we both graduated as soon as I graduated from high school and Clyde graduated from college we made our first album and started touring pretty immediately so those skills were directly transferable and as Clyde said it was the same group of people that had been playing those College shows that came to do um you know the tour so there was a lot of that background I think that that's like the answer about like how we made it work from a like putting on good shows level there's a few different levels on which you can answer your question there's like yeah also like as you said like the band camaraderie and culture level which is like how do you and I think that that is honestly the same answer that it is now which is just like having really good systems for communication and like transparency and comfort and TR trust within the band like I think that we've always tried to create really well structured like kind of like systems we're very like systems oriented like you know what happens if someone misses the show like do they just not get paid for that show or but what if that show is the highest paying one and they actually couldn't make it like that's unfair so okay why don't we aggregate All the Monies over the course of a show and pay it out according to however many of the shows you made like you know we come up with tons of systems and have these documents that are almost like a constitution of the Bands operating agreement um cool and they're not actually formal contracts but like we all have abided by them for years and amended them when new like edge cases come up where it's like oh this is kind of a a specific case we didn't think of let's like let's amend our system for that you know so we I think that that kind of thing is like part of the culture of it that allows it to work from the beginning and up through now and acknowled that like each person that like there's fairness and we want to be fair to everyone but that there are like specific ways in which different people operate in different ways and that that Constitution has to account for that for example I can't literally physically carry as heavy of a bag so an Uber might be necessary for me to be whatever like those kinds of things are taken into account for the fairness and the wellbeing of everyone in the band and then there's like the financial aspect which might also be a question of like how as eight people did we literally tour yes and I mean the answer is like we had like no costs like literally we had like almost no costs like because we all did all of the things um no one was eat yeah yeah no one yeah so like we had like the cost of like we mention you're not allowed to eat in yeah I just mean that's part of the Constitution there was like practically no cost of touring that we would normally have we had we we were just talking about this we literally pretty much didn't rent a hotel room like get book a hotel room for the entire first year and a half of us touring um it was because we I mean the nice thing about having eight people in the band is that like we have a lot of friends so like that like try to use that as a benefit as much whether it's one of our families or like a generous friends like we stayed with a lot of our College friends parents like because they would have like bigger homes just out of college would but we also stayed with a lot of people our age just slept on couches and we also slept in the van Twi we slept in the van like once or twice yeah I would say like the good nights we were like staying with somebody's a friend's family in like some really nice home and then they would like be so hospitable and like cook for us and whatever but then there were many nights where we were just sleeping on like a just out of college friend's floor and then many nights where we were sleeping in the van and that was kind of that we had Gracie and I like bought a van a used van from the the savings that we had at that point um wow and so yeah gas and gas and you know people's food you know we paid out like a small I think we paid out a $20 a day per DM to everybody in the band um which was like in advance against any profits So like um and then every um and which there weren't any profits for the first year maybe plus and then almost everyone in the band had found other jobs that they were able to make no one in the band was making a living off of the touring for the first couple years um sure everybody found other jobs whether it was like tutoring giving lessons freelance remote uh software engineering work um you know uh when someone was like writing grants for a non a nonprofit thankfully the band is like super smart and capable and was able to find ways do Jordan was playing tons of weddings whenever we weren't on tour teaching um yeah it was a mix of like finding jobs that allowed people to um have other sources of income I also think that style of touring like you know obviously the conversation around mental health has progressed in a great way over the past few years I think that style of touring worked for us at that time because it was our first few years of touring there's a certain level of excitement there's a lot of Youth there's a lot of energy and sort of willingness to for lack of a less jenzy term like send it and uh and like I think that you know if that was perhaps still The Way We Were touring 10 years in that would be really tough and I'm sure we would have really hard convers ations about you know mentally how can we make this better for ourselves physically physically how can we make this better for ourselves um fortunately we're not in that exact position and we're not having to have those those exact conversations but yeah I think like that was also reminiscent of a specific time and place in all of our lives that we kind of had a mutual um enthusiasm and willingness for that kind of touring and we also didn't tour as back to back we had significant breaks I would say in between our touring periods um but or or like you know a few I don't really think of it that way but maybe we did I mean I I just think we had time I wouldn't say that we toured for like an entire year I would say that we had time off but um yeah nice and uh Jordan you've been tour managing uh since the beginning I'm until present day that has that been the case for 10 years the very very first like did it the first right right like via me on yeah it was yeah is how did you learn to do this where did you like and and how has it evolved over the years on the job train okay I was involved over the years essentially there's no rule book there's no guidelines there's no standard practices and every day is kind of a new exciting terrible day day um I kind of like live and Thrive off of the dealing with whatever the day might throw my way um how is it grown I mean in a real sense I think that something that's like really nice is that as you grow in a band people start to kind of listen to you a little more like you have more say in how the day is going to run in the early days it's literally like here's when you're showing up you tell me what I to know and they say yep show up at 4 you'll have a 12 minute sound check and no one will be here have fun and then as you grow you're able to say like we need three hours of soundchecking time we need dressing rooms make sure it has XY yeah for our headlining tours sure in terms of stage and production like we're able to kind of make some demands in which some of them get met which is nice um yeah I often like and as a you know this is just a byproduct of our band and culture like we're super super organized when it comes to tour management um and most venues are honestly like shocked at the level of um nuance and like granularity that I expect them to be able to give me information and then I have a high standard of expecting each venue to actually stand by their words um yeah which often leads to many arguments and like many late night uh as you saw the documentary just like stressful moments right before this like I'll literally be arguing with someone until I walk on stage and then right back the funniest part is that often people we work with don't realize not just Jordan particularly Jordan but how many of the people in the band are in the band because like Johnny who is our production manager usually wears like all black during the whole day and like fully looks like he's just our got like a walkie talkie and he's like setting up all the equipment and then like he's talking to all the stage hands the way a production manager would and then it's like right then same with Jordan he's like talking about the logistics of the day often like they're everyone's like all right we gotta go get on stage and people don't even realize that these guys are in the band which is like the funniest thing yeah that's always a fun that's fantastic um which this is a a nice natural segue I mean as you know because you guys are so involved in the business operations of everything um you know and you and and you are so detail oriented and granular with um how kind of the deals are structured and all of that I mean I I was watching in the in the documentary kind of how there was one show where you were charged 500 bucks for a production manager who didn't show and you're there and then of you know so speak you know a lot of people listening right now because uh because of your Senate testimony and the big news of the week of course is um that Live Nation uh has done away with merch fees for about 75 of their small to mid-level venues which is huge I mean this is honestly this is such a sea change and I think it took a lot of people bu surprise because not a you know we we there's a lot of grievances grievances in the music industry just across the board and very rarely does something actually happen that actually helps real musicians um in a real way and this happened and it's it's uh being celebrated you know across the industry I think a lot of us are still in shock that this this actually went down not only are they doing away with uh the merch fees but everyone from the headliners to the openers are getting paid $1,500 on top of of the show compensation to cover other expenses and now I I had a lot of questions about this I got on the phone with someone at Live Nation last night cuz I'm just like all right what's the catch here is this like is this like is you have to submit gas receipts or like what's they're like no no it's literally envelopes of cash I'm like are you serious they like yeah yeah go look online like people are showing the envelopes of cash they're being handed of this so you know first off on behalf of the entire independent music Community I like I'm just offering an immense amount of gratitude and thanks to uh both of you for what you did cuz this wouldn't have happened without uh your advocacy and your Senate testimony and then everything you've done behind the scenes in between you know the testimony until now talk a little bit about the Journey of how you started with the Grievances in the green rooms of we're being charged for this and that and they're not here and what this is absurd uh to today and and this incredible deal yeah first of all thank you that's like so nice and it's so cool to see these changes finally happening um I think kind of what we were just saying like Clyde and I walk into every settlement of a show meaning like after the show happens time to get paid time to look at the paperwork and talk it over we walk in and we're like so thorough in a way that most artists maybe aren't because they're Outsourcing tour management to people that a are like not part of the team and they're being paid to do a million things and this is just one of them I think that's a really critical part of it is like reexamining the responsibilities of the tour manager at the club level yeah tour manager is often a person that is like a really great can do Spirit Hands-On attitude with not necessarily a ton of experience and even if they do have a ton of experience it might be in like the logistics of making the show happen not not on pouring through the details of a settlement that they actually don't stand to gain or lose if the money's right or not yeah so we'll in these settlement rooms very often just be seeing things that on the face of it seem to be like unfair and we'll have really like often Pleasant conversations with sta you know venue Representatives discussing like why is it this way why is this the system how did we get here and every so often you'll find someone who's willing to have that conversation and agree that like yeah oh yeah no that does seem a little bit unfair and when you do years of touring and you have hundreds of these conversations it just kind of builds inside of like something needs to happen here like we can't keep just doing this forever um yeah I mean so we just always were having these conversations with each other with other people in the band with other bands fans with our fans yeah like you know we would have meet and greet uh Q&A sessions that would devolve into like us talking about you know the economics of a show or whatever um and uh that was a little bit more than your fans probably signed up for yeah they're like more interested in that yeah really we often get questions from fans just like the ones you asked of like how do you start off touring economically at this level like different things um and then you and then you say something like well yeah because it's tough you know because this venue is taking 20% of our merch gross which really comes out to like 40% of our merch profits and then and then seven more hands go up they're like wait what like run you know people like when you start to tell them some of the numbers people start to like really be interested whether they're a musician or not I think also because people in general when they're supporting a band at our level or they feel like they've gotten in on the ground level they want to feel like when they're buying a shirt it's going to the band and that they feel like there's something there's a good feeling there when you find something early when you feel like it's your secret to find out that that band is maybe not being treated the way you understood them to be treated or whatever that's upsetting to you as like a fan or a consumer or someone who feels invested in this small thing also when you as a fan spend $40 on a ticket between the service fees and the whatever you at least like the feeling of feeling that you're supporting a band that you love and if you find out that um I don't know maybe only uh $12 of that 40 is actually at the end of the day going into the band's pocket partially because of deal structures being messed up partially because of the high costs on various sides of things and then that's not including our cost so then only $6 are actually the the band's profit or whatever like those then you're like wait tell me more about that so anyway we have a lot of those kinds of conversations um and we um and I just think that there was this moment around that whole Taylor Swift um debacle um where there was just all of a sudden a more like mainstream National interest in hearing about the economics of the live music industry in the most broad sense and I say that in a broad sense because a lot of the issues Jordan and I were dealing with on a night toight basis the ones we're talking to you about right now have very little are are only tangentially related to what happened with the whole Taylor Swift thing but it was just a moment where I think that there was an opening in like the general interest mindset of the average person to hearing about the economics of the live music industry in general um and so we were kind of encouraged by a friend of ours to write something thinking maybe it would be an open letter thinking maybe it would be picked up in some random whatever and literally like very randomly the New York Times ran it and then that was like whoa okay this is about to be like a whole different ball game like literally it was like it went from literally being like Oh yeah like if we like the way this turns out we know our fans think that we care a lot about this like maybe we'll post it on socials blah blah blah blah blah to like literally me getting an email being like hey this is the head of New York Times editorial read your piece from a friend of a friend um we'd love to run this like in the next week and then like like it was literally that so then it's like so then that came out yeah and then shortly after that then everything started everything started coming together including getting an email similar to that from senator Amy clar's office basically saying that she's putting this panel together for the Senate Judiciary committee's hearing on all of this ticketing stuff and they want to have an artist and they want to have they were like wondering if we would want to be that artist and it it just kept like in those weeks and months everything just kept leveling up in intensity you really I I was I've said this to people before but like you really come to understand how a person becomes like that guy that's on every News Channel because literally just like it like in the days leading up to and right after the Senate testimony or the Live Nation outed it was like CNN NBC CBS like all the different things being like do you want to come do a five minute talking and it's like you really are like oh like I get like I don't know it was just one of those moments where it was like this is how this happens this is how this happens we could be on like every and then it's like do we want to do that like like what is the benefit do we want to be choosy about what we're saying like sure like are we gonna just be what's the goal yeah exact then it became like what's the goal and the goal is to create change yeah um if we can and yeah so then we talk in front of the Senate again like totally don't know what that's going to be like but it turns out to like literally go viral on Tik Tok and like we're told in advance and I think am kachar has even uh has even mentioned this like publicly like we we're kind of told in advance like yeah we we wanted to have an artist perspective so like you guys be on the panel but no one's probably going to really ask you any questions they're going to spend 90% of their time on the Live Nation guy and and then of course we're getting asked a million questions because everyone wants to talk to the artist and all the Senators want you know probably a like fun video of like them conversing with artist what you said was very interesting and compelling and perhaps unexpected to them in a way that probably made them gear their question slightly differently it's the same as what I said about the VIP meet and greets I you know I start talking about some of the economics of this all of a sudden people are like wait what like I have a question so literally like we're all these questions by far the most V like spread clips from the whole event are the ones of us doing our thing and so it's just like this crazy snowball thing where it's like really none of this was like part of some big calculated plan but then again there's a whole new round of like opportunities to talk to press about it like okay what's the goal and then it balloons into like opportunities to talk to other Government powers about it um and pursue that route and then it turns into to opportunities to talk in a more serious way to Live Nation directly about it um in which we're like really given an opportunity um to like voice not only the things that we wanted to say that were directly related to this Senate hearing because again the Senate hearing was still about ticketing consumer ticketing issues so we were kind of trying to Trojan horse as many of our like artist advocacy issues into that not that don't about consumer ticketing issues sure but then like you know through that given a chance to actually sit down with Live Nation in a in a nons senate setting in a more undefined period of time and air all of our concerns that whether or not they're related to the issue of the moment and then you know I think that we kind of just spoke about a number of things had a number of continued conversations and it became clear very quickly that this merch issue was one that we were really being heard on you know I think that it became clear immediately that like not to say that they're not open to some of the other things that we have brought up and hopefully those you know these programs will expand and we're continuing our conversations with them but from the GetGo it was like oh the merch thing yeah no yeah let's figure that out you know that was kind of the tone yeah which was honestly like there in this one Epic meeting that we had right on the heels of all of this craziness it was really nice like we had again like it was a big long undefined amount of time with some pretty high up people at Live Nation which was the first time we had ever had the opportunity to like be heard out on that level and we were met with like a lot of listening and like appreciating our concerns and agreeing with us on a few of these things including the merch thing that like ultimately led us to this point kind of you know last six months of working with them um yeah I think so much of their business is these super highlevel artists and high level concerts and so I think that like honestly not to say they're they weren't paying attention but I think that it's like I just think that like a lot of the people making the biggest decisions there are understandably focused on like not the level right economics as much for artists like like not to say that they're not thinking about that and they're obviously thinking about it on their own and and the thing is that the the margins at the club level are razor thin for everybody um sure but but yeah I think that like there was almost a sense of like we're coming in with all of these issues that club level artists are facing and it was sort of just like a moment of them being like okay yeah like let's just try to fix some of these issues like that was honestly the tone like okay yeah like fair enough yeah and then where did the sorry keep going no no no go ahead um where did the $1,500 per artist come from do you did you guys discuss that or was that as much of a shock to you as it was to everybody else the specifics of that were not really something that we were involved in as but we were very much kind of Illuminating the ISS issues that like in these deals all of the venue expenses are always covered and none of the artist expenses are covered um yes that was kind of the main point that we were bringing to the table and we you know suggested some Solutions in which this is one of them but there I think there are other things that can be happening industrywide to um help alleviate that pain but yeah they kind of took that pain point and ran with it to this specific program we definitely we definitely like brought up on our you know we literally I mean we have a list of bullet points and definitely one of them was like a both like messaging and financial acknowledgment of the artist costs in the form of some type of reimbursement because obviously artists can sometimes have guarantees but at small clubs those are often not even enough to cover their costs and that money is commissioned by a whole Litany of people um so yeah I think that that was well yeah and for the openers I mean you know it's uh it's no it's no secret that a lot of openers especially first to three openers or something like that might be getting paid a couple hundred bucks to open the show literally two $300 to open a show in front of you know 800 people or something like that so like going from making $200 to making $1,700 for the show that's a huge is the current thing that's happening that openers and Headliners are each $1500 that's honestly to be totally honest with you that's when we had when we spoke with Live Nation about what the program was going to be it wasn't exactly that so that's really amazing to hear if that's what it has evolved into it was not the same um the numbers were a but it's super now the other thing is is is um uh you know all of this is incredible and the fact and it's really nice to here kind of the behind the scenes of just like that you were heard and that you brought these Grievances and like you said ven you expenses are always covered and artist expenses are never really discussed and never part of that conversation so the fact that they are um they not only heard that but they're addressing it you know now there's a lot of naysayers out there I don't know if you've seen the commentary especially from kind of the independent venue associations namely like Neva National independent venue Association and and some of these other independent venues that are like well live this is a this is a move by Live Nation to just push out and put out of business the independent uh venues and then once all the other their competition's out of business then they're going to go back to their old own ways what would you say to that yeah I mean look as I said before the margins at at this level are very thin so I'm totally like sympathetic to that perspective and obviously like we want independent venues to be able to not only exist but Thrive we also want artists to be able to exist and Thrive and it's really hard because you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole as far as you know having everybody that deserves to make a a comfortable living doing this amazing thing which is putting on Club level shows everyone should we want all of that um yeah and like we look forward to or hope that there's an opportunity for us to like come up with ideas for how to make um positive change for the economics of independent Club level venues yes but I I don't think that the solution is clinging on to what feels like a not totally good policy from like a philosophical standpoint like I I think that I think that that's a really interesting conversation to be had but I think that getting rid of artist merch cuts at the club level is the right thing to do and I don't think that Live Nation should be um discouraged from doing that like as to what their motives are look like Jordan and I have had a number of conversations with them in which to our to our ear they're interested in solving some of the problems that that small level artists are having right now and like yes they're able to make that change like that's you know hopefully this program is permanent and that is exactly like how that proves to be so I it's it's such a complicated issue obviously but the only thing I feel confident in is that them getting rid of artist merch Cuts is good and something to be celebrated that's kind of like absolutely let's go from that agreement and move forward and hear everybody's concerns well and that's the thing is just like uh I think we all agree that uh merch Cuts artist merch cuts are unethical and they should if if we're not getting a cut of the bar then then the venue and the promoter should not be getting a cut of the merch it's it's pretty uh understood that that that just makes a lot of sense that's just conceptually just makes sense and so you know I took um I in response to a lot of these independent venues are people saying well like the live nation's motives are X Y andz I'm like regardless I mean yes we're in a capitalist Society they're a massive multi-billion dollar Corporation blah blah blah blah blah I don't trust him fine nobody you know whatever but that doesn't negate the fact that they doing something really really good in the right direction and making strides and that hopefully will inspire every other venue independent major whatever to do what's right and that is to do away with with merch cuts and just like no matter how you know it it turns out like that just is the right thing to do yeah they're just doing the right yeah like that's exactly you know we've had our conversations with the people there every everyone might have the every artist might have have their own relationship with Live Nation the like sure which and by that I mean Live Nation the corporation as a concept Live Nation as a collective of individual people that you've met throughout your career because if you're a touring artist you have a relationship some set of people that represent Live Nation certainly our relationship with both the corporation and the people that are that make it up has evolved so everyone's gonna have their own different opinions about their level of what they think the reasoning is but I think it boils down to what you just said which is like let's not stop a company from doing a thing that really benefits artists and is the right thing to do right now absolutely yeah and and and you're right I mean there are some of my friends good friends work at Live Nation I mean there are people there are really good people that make up you know uh a corporation and all of that and like but the concept of of Live Nation live you know like in your song Live Nation is a monopoly I mean like calling them out by name it's like that's that's an idea that's more than just like you know the actual substance of it all so um well above all you know again thank you guys for your advocacy in your work I mean this is a massive stride uh huge moves in the right direction and it's going to be I mean it's going to benefit thousands and thousands of artists and really I mean it's going to make I mean they estimated it's going to put tens of millions of dollars back into artist Pockets just in the next few months um is what they've calculated and and i' the Live Nation rep that I spoke to last night um she said that this is going to be ongoing until further notice so there's there's no end date to this program which is great um and this is really the conversation that is needed to happen so it's great to see real change um in on that front so um just to kind of finish up um I I want to just kind of get back to the music a little bit uh because you know you guys um you know we can lose we talk business we are on the new music business podcast after all so we are we have we do have to talk about the business a little bit but um but I I'm really excited to hear about um the new single that you guys have well by this time it's Aron has just released um and just to talk a little bit about um unconfident that I'm insecure the previous single now the the the version that you put out of I'm confident that I'm insecure uh you kind of call it the um well there's I I saw the video um which was fantastic the kind of acoustic is version and all of that which is super fun um is this part of like is this the version that's going to be the version and is this part of the roll out for the new album and talk about that and then talk about the the new single yeah I mean well the official song's been out for I guess a little over for uh a month right like a six weeks or something like that and then we always we or not always but we found um when making the last album that you know what what we do in the studio is one thing what we do at the live show is another thing and then there's always this version of Clyde and I love working with like a million singers and like that's like the our dream and Clyde is amazing at vocal Arrangement so um I think we we were really excited on the last album to do um you know these acoustic is versions um or I guess we really only did them for two of the songs um and people seem to really like like those videos we did one for don't lose sight that definitely had this like viral moment and then when we were just starting working on this batch of new music and released I'm confident that I'm insecure we thought it would be really fun to do an acoustic is version of that song that felt really different than the studio recording um and just kind of like gave people a different lens into the song and featured like our favorite singers and friends um yeah so yeah I mean I think we'll continue making those kinds of videos and maybe one day they'll have a home somewhere on something that

2023-10-18 13:19

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