Examining the End of Tourism with Chris Christou

hello wherever you are in the world today thank you for joining us for the rise traveler unpacking conversations of sustainable travel we're here to move a Step Beyond the Instagram ready world of travel and think critically and deeply about how travel can uplift Global communities protect natural ecosystems and be a source of growth for travelers here at rise travel Institute we are committed to empowering Travelers and travel professionals through education our programs research experiential Journeys scholarships and free resources are all aimed at bringing you closer to a more responsible and ethical travel experience learn more by visiting ryra institute.org so welcome to rise travel institute's podcast the rise traveler and packing conversations of sustainable travel I'm Vincy ho the guest host for season 4 in the special season we will be talking to critical the scholars activists and leaders in sustainability and social and environmental justices in the travel and tourism space and together we'll delve into the ethics of travel and discuss some of the pressing issues that are impacting communities at travel destinations around the world so today I'm very excited to have Chris Crystal writer Storyteller educational curator and culture activist he's the host of the end of ISM podcast so far he's produced Five Seasons and close to 50 episodes more or less yeah and Chris uses his podcast as a a platform for deep conversations on what people usually don't think about when they think about travel some of the topics include but are not limited to Exile and migration wonderand lust and Hyper Mobility sustainability and greenwashing extractive economics and degrowth colonialism and de coloniality radical hospitality and much more I person I'm personally a huge fan of ch's podcast and when I was first introduced to it I was immediately hooked by the name of the podcast and was expecting to hear critical discussions about and around tourism issues and I was not disappointed so Prince is also the founder of Waka profundo translated as the Mexico in English a project that aims at honoring the diversity of cultures stories and the likelihoods of locals that have been threatened by the dominant Colonial representation or singular Narrative of the place the project connects Travelers and student groups with the locals providing Travelers with the opportunity to experience the local cultures and learn from the locals always through a the colonial lens so yes thank you so much for being our first guest for season four of the rise traveler podcast it is such an honor to have you with us today thank you iny for the for the invitation I'm grateful to be here and to be able to speak with you and and your uh your people thank you so before we dive deeply into ethical issues around travel and tourism that we both are so passionate about could you please share with us um a little bit about who you are um if I've miss anything in the intro where you're currently based what brought you there in the first place and what is your relationship with the land where you live now yeah great question um so I'm currently currently I'm uh I don't yeah I I live in Waka Mexico just outside of uh the city the Capital about 30 minutes outside in a in a small town in a village here and I've been living here for the better part of a decade now um it's kind of a long convoluted story but you know the short of it is uh that uh in my 20s I became a kind of semi-permanent Backpacker kind of part-time tourist I caught the travel bug uh Wander lust uh there was a great deal of escapism growing up in Toronto Canada in uh a met big Metropolitan City and just seeing you know things change very quickly in my adolescence and and uh also kind of carrying a a fairly large degree of um alienation or loneliness perhaps and so I decided kind of on a whim to travel to start traveling and and as soon as I you know was abroad internationally for the first time uh I fell in love with with travel with with um with what I perhaps didn't quite understand at the time was uh was tourism and my life ended up becoming this kind of um wander lust um this cycle of wander lust where I would work seasonally in Toronto for as long not for as long as I could but um as much as I could in order to save as much money as I could in order to travel for as long as I could and then basically repeating that process over and over and over again um and you know after a couple of years that kind of that kind of superficial tourism or or travel gave way to kind of like well I want to learn I want to learn about other cultures and you know at the end of maybe seven or eight years I started started asking myself what I was doing with my life because it just kind of revolved around this cycle of what I realized later was always wanting to be elsewhere was was essentially not wanting to be in Toronto or not wanting to be at home and so I decided that I would move somewhere and that I would plant myself in that place wherever it might be and I had a long list of places because I had met so many people around the world in in that decade and I kind of came down to wak on a whim Without Really any reason for why this place and after about six months here I just realized that I needed to stop wanting to be everywhere or wanting to be anywhere and um and at some point in that Journey when I landed in Waka I knew I wanted to write a travel book or a book on travel and uh I just knew that I didn't want it to be another travel log right I didn't want it to be about me uh um you know there's so many of those in the world why not do something that's maybe more needed perhaps and and so at the time I began researching the history of Tourism the history of modern travel and in doing research for that manuscript for that book and in that research over the course of those years you know maybe four or five years doing that research I came to understand that there were social movements all over the world that were local social movements localized social movements that were fighting for particular causes could have been could be environmental in terms of maybe um the pollution or contamination of waterways uh the building of a new airport excuse me and um but it could have been economic factors gentrification for example and so but what I realized was that at the center of all of these movements was tourism and they weren't either vocally or directly anti-tourism but tourism was the thing that bound them together and so I wondered you know how could it be that we might be able to uh find a way to amplify those voices the voices that are often only heard in the neighborhoods or in the cities of of individual peoples or communities or social movements amplify them and and even start creating networks between those communities uh and as well offering Travelers and tourists and expats and digital Nomads and migrants and traveling people a deeper aperture into the nature and history and consequences of our of our worldly movements and so that's what happen happened and it was you know strangely enough in January 2020 when that decision was made to okay going to start a podcast this is what it's going to be about uh and in part because of the kind of looming uh over tourism that was beginning in Waka and then yeah um there was a global shutdown of course of Tourism and travel in March of 2020 and in September 2020 the podcast was launched um to uh great Fanfare and controversy as as one might imagine and uh yeah so it's been this this incredible um journey to wander aloud with people activists within social movements academics uh you know who are certainly more the the heart of the critical theory and critical lenses around tourism unfortunately that's where it get it's often stuck in it doesn't there's really often no um Avenue where in which the general public can understand the these uh these histories and consequences because so much of it is locked behind University pay walls and things like that so so activists academics and then of course you know people uh in the neighborhood um people in over touristed communities um cities Etc and so yeah it's been I guess three years now just under three years and five seasons and uh I've learned uh an incredible amount so um again I've learned an incredible amount too you know from your episode thank you yeah so like your personal trajectory is fascinating and I think it definitely resonates with a lot of us um who all like develop um very very early on uh a passion for travel but a lot of people would just kind of stop there and like continue to want to travel without this reflection in terms of um you know what's going on at the places they travel to and how do people live and all these social movements and and social injustices that people are fighting for I I'd like to interrupt you just for a second if I may because uh there's something important there that you know I left out which was that when I moved to Waka I began working in the tourist industry and so I began to see from that side not just a local Foreigner I know that's paradoxical and you know but um but someone who is now embedded on the serving side of an industry that I was always on the receiving end of uh and that's so so that really opened my eyes um to all of the things that I couldn't see all of the ways in which I was as a as a Backpacker um that completely alien to me that were that I was completely oblivious to and I think in part because with most travel modern travel most tourism specifically is that we're only in a place long enough um to kind of get what we can out of it right it's this extractive feeling or you know whether it's intentional or not usually it isn't so there's a degree of ignorance there um but we're almost never in places long enough to actually see our consequences in them rolling out right and so that's what I began to see really for the first time after a decade of of being on the receiving end of of uh that hospitality and so I just wanted to mention that because that's also a a big part of how the the podcast got started true thank you yeah I think that that probably has informed that experience on their serving end has probably informed you about what you were not able to see as a traveler and that is the case of a lot of Travelers who who have like who's who got bitten by this travel bug and want just want to keep travel traveling forever and um not having that perspective you know from the other side of of the industry and looking at how things are done and what tourism has impacted um you know places around the world and communities around the world so well thank you for that it's um fascinating um I can relate a lot like I personally when I was in my 20s uh also kind of the same um as a lot of Travelers they would always think about like what they get you know what is in there for them right like what does tourism or travel brings to them um but not really thinking about the consequences or like not seeing the consequences or long-term consequences that you talked about just now so tell us a little bit more about the end of Tourism podcast um what were you thinking when you picked the name for the podcast and doesn't mean is it is it to that Mark the end of your uh you know the your era as a as a traveler always wandering always not like traveling nonstop or like what what other meanings um does it carry and what do you want to achieve with your podcast what are some objectives like what do you want this podcast to contribute to the world um again great question so the name was chosen I'm really bad with you know those kind of like reductionist understandings of a of a particular thing so finding a name was was very difficult for me but of course you know I wanted something provocative um something kind of also blurry or uh open-ended enough that people could you know Wonder themselves about what what that what that could mean not just coming from me but what that might mean for them what that might mean for local people what that might mean for an industry etc etc and I kind of based it off um fukuyama's the end of History right it was kind of this this book in this concept that came out you know maybe 20 well 30 years ago now and I think the idea around it was that you know with the collapse of the Soviet Union that that history as we know it is over right and so and so what now and it was kind of this very um mainstream economics neoliberal take on things and so with the end of Tourism for me and you know the way I defined it at the beginning was kind of like in this kind of binary understanding which you know maybe the end of Tourism could be the beginning of local people in touristed and over touristed places regenerating their local hospital Hospitality Traditions that have largely been commodified and you know sold off as souvenirs and spectacle and things like that um maybe the or maybe the end of Tourism you know could be something like the world knowing nothing other than tourism right and that kind of it's like what and so this understanding of maybe tourism isn't just an industry right maybe touris is also a way of life maybe tourism exists in places we don't consider to be touristed right maybe tourism or a touristic way of viewing the world is a kind of uh deeply Modern Way of understanding place and and the other or each other that says that you know because of the economic and social uh mechanisms and Dynam dyamics that we live with and under that I don't have to nor should I nor can I even build community with the people in the place that I live in or in the places that I'm going to because they've already been set up as kind of like single serving entities right um and of course you know this it's not just when you go to it's not just we're not just talking about um people going to all-inclusive resorts and being served you know pina coladas all day long or whatever um but to the extent that people who rent which is most people and I think most people I know anyways uh that they move to a new place that uh maybe an apartment building maybe a house and their willingness to uh know their neighbor to build community to be a part of that Community is dependent on their capacity to do it which is to say their time their energy which you know these days a lot of people don't have and the understanding that you know if rent goes up next year which it probably will I'm not going to be able to afford this place and I'm probably going to have to move and so why take the time right why take the time that precious little time that I have to just relax and rest right and so so this un that's kind of what the end of History this the secret um unspoken Declaration of the end of History was is that now because there's only one world one world order which is the neoliberal kind of West or modern uh model that maybe that's all we're going to have for from now until forever right and so that's kind of that that was also one of the possibilities of playing with this idea the end of Tourism is that maybe the world is going to look so or or not just appear but but be lived in such a touristic way that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference between uh the all-inclusive resort and our our home and I like personally I would say that I think that that's already happened you know yeah there's there's a degree of you know certainly tragedy and lament in there and I think that that's important too right it's we don't need to sugarcoat um the way that things are it's just going to make things more difficult for us and for the people for the young ones who might come after usely well thank you yeah and and so what what do you want to achieve with this podcast like you know now that you have um produced five seasons do you want to continue with it like um for as long as you you can and and just like really create space for more conversations they bring in um as you said like academics who who have been working in silos or like you know not not necessarily having the means to make their research like accessible to the general public to the locals and and so is it like is that one of your aims like you know to kind of provide that platform to for for these conversations to to reach a larger public yeah absolutely I mean I didn't think i' probably have lasted this long when I started in 2020 I thought it would uh you know just be a little Pet Project you know a lot of people like P pandemic projects as they said um well the title definitely helped because you wanted it to be provocative and it definitely so that purpose I would say yeah yeah and it's certainly like a rose and a time when certainly the end of Tourism or something like it seemed to be upon us um and then of course it wasn't again you know and the more that these conversations happened the more people asked me you know to do uh interviews and seasons and episodes in Spanish you know friends here in Waka said like you know my my mother my grandmother like they they need to know this stuff right because it's happening here and they want to know and could you know could you please do something in Spanish so you know we ended up doing the second season on Mexico in in Spanish and then uh of course like in terms of my knowledge of these things it's just expanded enormously where uh you know you now you could basically do at least one season if not more on every region of the world um so yeah but it's also morphed a little bit into towards this this other understanding of like maybe tourism isn't just an industry right maybe there's something Beyond this idea of it being an industry that that deserves attention so that's what the most recent uh uh season is about is you know what if tourism begins at home and and why and how um so I don't know if I particularly I don't think I have a goal in mind um I would I would love to focus on other projects to be completely honest with you it's um know podcasting can be a lot of work as I'm sure you know as I'm sure you're about to find out um I will find out yeah um and and of course it you know generally doesn't pay very well so um I don't know you know necessarily what kind of goal outside of uh just asking you know unconsidered questions questions that defy most attempts to try to answer them and and to allow and to bring into um I guess to some degree the mainstream uh a willingness to ask those questions and to consider the unconsidered in terms of our Earthly movements and travel right considered the unconsidered thank you for putting it so beautifully um and please definitely continue because like the more you know the more you want to know and and I learned that time uh you know through your podcast so please continue to do that U but I would uh love to talk about your other projects uh later on um uh towards the end of this interview but before we do so um uh I would let's let's take a deep dive into one of the tourism trends that is very present and visible in Waka Mexico the place you call home now um I'm talking about Waka being a digital Nomad Hotpot can you tell us what's the situation there now how big is the digital NORAD population roughway in the city what changes have you witnessed in the past few years especially since covid has Co sealed um the explosion of like digital Nomads or remote workers like coming into the city yeah so huge huge topic um of course it's not um it's not um beholden only to Waka you know countless countless uh cities and and and places around the world uh I I don't have any numbers for that unfortunately uh there are no statistics at the moment um this is generally something that is of course very difficult to people may people will come you know for maybe they want to come for 6 months um you know that's generally the maximum the tourist visa and things like that some people want to come longer try to get a temporary residency or things like that yeah um but generally because six months in Mexico at least for American and Canadian citizens is the maximum uh you would see and you do see this High turnover right um so in that in that regard it's it's very difficult to gauge I think yeah you know someone during the the first years of the pandemic someone a friend or an acquaintance had made me an administrator of one of the local expat groups on Facebook and in 2020 there was something like 5,000 um people I imagine mostly expats on that group and you know we're I guess three years later now four three three and a half years later there's at least 16,000 maybe maybe 20 right and so what I saw and I think what most people here saw was that we had a very short time of quote unquote lockdown here in in Waka Mexico is one of the only countries in the world not to put restrictions on travel uh for people of course coming in but there was there was a few months where uh the streets were suddenly empty and people left their house basically only for groceries um and that was that was um an incredible moment you know I think it's really important for the people who are watching and the people who who are listening to understand that this is one of the questions that I ask almost everyone uh in the social movements in over touristed cities is what happened what was it like for for you and your people uh during that time during the lockdown time and almost across the board they say it was beautiful you know despite the fact that you know this this virus was was killing people on mass MH because they had the opportunity suddenly to walk down their own streets without you know people just taking photos like click click click click click like flashing you know uh or you know the the tourist buses and the hordes and everything else anyway so so that's what that's what it was and then you know was long didn't take long I think it was in probably around September 2020 um that people started essentially in the global North and the United States and Canada and certainly Europe as well but certainly more than anything in the United States people began to um get uh go stir crazy right and they wanted to be anywhere but at home they wanted to you know the the lockdowns the politics all of that stuff and of course during that time time people who have who would regularly travel or vacation that's where their minds went right they went elsewhere they went to where can I go how can I get there etc etc and so of course Mexico is one of those places and so we saw this um this you know for lack of a better word in Invasion uh in part because and I don't say that lightly either right I mean PE people throw words around quite a bit but um it was basically you know people coming here from the global North from United States Canada and Europe of course other places but C mostly those right um and often refusing to wear a masks because there were no mask mandates and so so you could see very clearly in the in the street who is a local and who wasn't and I'm not just talking about uh people who are born here I'm also talking about uh the local expats who had spent years and sometimes decades here uh because the people came in order so that they didn't have to do what they owed their neighbors back home and in doing so they risk the lives of the of the people in the place that they came to right yeah um and so this created a a a massive kind of backlash and that's still ongoing but that's that's kind of uh getting away from your question you know so some people were coming just to get away yeah and then what you also saw was um these waves of digital Nomads in part because suddenly again because of the the kind of Fallout of the pandemic suddenly so many people could work from home or work from boat yep and so they became these quote unquote digital Nomads which I I should say is is really uh you know we shouldn't we should find a better term because uh it does a huge um it's incredibly uh I think disrespectful to people who live their lives you know traditional peoples in in a properly nomadic way nomic people yeah and what it does is it it it it kind of blinds us to how those people are are how their nomadism actually serves the places that they live in right because this isn't what that is our our willingness to go to a place you know for six months and work I understand like I understand right it's like you know the cost of living skyrocketed uh pretty much everywhere as a result of the pandemic right you can work from home okay great I don't have to commute and two hours every day anymore right and why would I pay this exorbitant rent when I can pay like a fraction of that somewhere else I get it right like I I know what category I I fall into uh in a lot of these conversations and so um and so yeah you see you've seen we've seen over the last few years this explosion in digital nomadism and what it's done here as it's done in most places post pandemic um of course you know Bali and and southern Europe um these places that were already very over touristed but other places like Waka or Mexico City or medine colia yeah um you've seen the this explosion in visitors and digital Nomads and it's been a massive um um it's contributed massively to the explosion in gentrification in these places which um isn't just you know cupcake shops uh or like hamburger like fancy hamburger restaurants in the middle of uh you know Colonial Mexico like Waka City or something like that but uh like also the rise the extreme rise in rents here you know uh in those two or three years like you know now my friends who have been here for 10 years or more the people the locals that I know nobody that we know lives in the center in the historic Center downtown of the city anymore in in in one or two years right it's just and basically because you know platform capitalism so much of the rentals have become short-term airbnbs uh forcing people local people into the peripheries of the city um and undoing generally any sense of any sense of community that still existed in those neighborhoods um so you know I think on on one level it's totally understandable um why digital Nomads would travel why remote workers would go but the thing is is that you know the re their reasons for leaving are reassert themselves in the places they go to right this old like adage that like you know Travelers tourists bring their their baggage with them but they don't just they don't just take it with them when they leave it's it's there and it's almost permanent right to some degree so and this is you know similar to what I was saying a little bit earlier just that even if you have you know 3 months six months in a place as a digital Nomad it's like how can you have any degree of understanding of what your consequences in a place is once you leave I mean I don't know if there's an answer answer that can serve that want and willingness to go um so you know I'm it's not saying don't go it's saying that well maybe there are people like yourself who have gone and done this before right who have been digital Nomads been remote workers in other places and it's not just in the last few years maybe there's something that they know that you don't I don't know I don't know but um you know that's so it's not just don't go right it's like how can we understand ourselves as people of consequence right yeah yeah and if what we try to escape yeah absolutely I I totally agree with you and I think this conversation is so important for anyone who who is right now like living a digital NAD lifestyle or like who are considering um you know experiencing The disal Life just like really think about the consequences and have considerations for the local communities and and think about what we're trying to escape and and we actually like you know bringing or imposing things like on onto another Community if we're escaping if RS at home have Skyrock rocketed and we're escaping that and we're actually making rent um unaffordable at the places that we're going to and what we could do is just just like leave after three months and what about the locals they will have to live the consequences forever after we've left so yeah absolutely and that leads to my next question you you basically like answered some of those but what I'm thinking like do you have let's say someone come to you knowing that you've lived in Waka for so long and want advice from you and say I want to come live in WKA for six months what is some advice that you would give them or questions that you would ask them to think about onr way yeah yeah well you know I think I think I almost immediately run out of anwers it's not that I run out of them I think I just don't have them um but I think you know generally speaking you know based on you know the people that I've spoken to here based on you know the the vast amounts of people that I've spoken to around the world in this context who are kind of on the receiving end of over tourism and and all of the kind of catastrophes it brings with it um you know it's it can it can be as simple as you know do your research right like not just on the history of the place and the civilizations or the cultures that live there and how you know the dances and the food but like the social movements find out about the resistance in those places to um you know the the infrastructures the economies the extractive economies are you know affecting everyone everywhere I mean there's very few people sadly left on this planet who were um who live outside of these things uh these these uh dilemas um and so yeah of course you know do your research get in touch with local social movements before you come and ask them you know maybe like you'd be willing to participate in some manner in uh something that really needs to be done in that place right like whatever it might be uh maybe it's like helping to organize Community I mean if it's in a different language you can do that then then great right but uh maybe it's um you know smaller acts uh you know with the environment environmental uh um issues water garbage Etc um and and ask those people if you're actually needed there yeah you know like yeah do your best to undermine the entitlement that says you you deserve to be there right exactly and I'm I don't say this lightly either because you know this is something that I've had to consider and deal with my entire time here right and yeah and all of that so and all of the you know considerations and and and all that that comes with it so um there's kind of you know the people that I've interviewed in those places it definitely runs the gamut of like yeah like we are not anti- Foreigner right we are not anti- traveler uh we might be anti- tourism like we don't want you to come and just participate in the spectacle and the gentri without knowing it really uh we want you to come and and and and be a guest in a way that uh allows us to practice and regenerate our local forms of hospitality which are not you know this kind of standardized Hotel version of industrial Hospitality from that all the way to you know places like Hawaii where um you know if you want to build solidarity with the with the people here don't come yeah just don't come right and um and you know so I think it's it's really really important before you even consider booking a flight or anything asking yourself if you're needed there right and of course like my my own personal kind of um I guess bias or prejudice is goes towards something like ask yourself where ask yourself where you're needed yeah right and and maybe before you need to ask someone else and then maybe you know there might be things might start to open up a little bit in terms of like I don't know how how you might be a good guest when you show up there right because if it's if it is the case that you're needed in your place more than you are there then maybe your way of being needed there and your way of honoring that need um makes you one of the first people that they want to invite right I don't know I love I absolutely love this advice such an invaluable advice for anyone who don't necessarily consider working remotely in another country but but just basically like before we pack our bags and travel right it's the same thing like we we often times like people don't think about whether the the places we travel to want tourism or want us to be there and so I yeah I think you just like really pointed out a very important point and and you also talked about when you talk about doe research everybody would ask people to like do your research before you go to a place and as you said like what you said really resonates a lot with me personally and with our organization that is we don't encourage only encourage people to look up like the history and culture of a place but also what is going on there like what are some political economic and environmental issues that the you know the residents are facing currently and you know what what are some stories of resilience and you know what are some projects that the communities are leading and how can we contribute if if we are traveling to those places so I think that is that is super important and that kind of information is essential and and so crucial for us to be able to have to even justify our you know our presence in our place like as you said if the place doesn't meet us we shouldn't be going so I I think that completely reframes the way we see travel because main like Main mainstream the mainstream understanding of travel is very egocentric very chentric it's all about you know what what do I get out of this experience you know when I consider going to Waka the first thing that I look up you know if I want to um work remotely there what's the speed of how's the speed of the internet look like um you know all these questions additional nads would have like um you know how many months can I can I stay there like you know how much money can I save uh um in terms of rent and what is the cost of living there not really understanding that by being there they're going to change all these parameters all these like things cost of living and and social fabric of the place that are going to be permanently altered so I I'm really um I really appreciate what you just shared and that's one very important piece of advice so thank you yeah I mean just before we move on I should I should mention that like you know um these conversations are ongoing in in tourist destinations right in in you know in places that have been uh undone by being called tourist destinations and and like not nobody but not everyone agrees on on these things right there's a lot of people in these places that say yes absolutely like bring tourism we need more tourism and there's a lot of people who say like I mean look around you it's it doesn't seem to be working you know like it works to the extent that you know we keep the rat race going um and so I think it's important that um people understand that it's an extremely nuanced conversation even among local people um and and and yeah and so um that research that consternation or or willingness to kind of take on should I go or not uh what if what if that wasn't just like a single conversation what if that was you know many conversations with people in your home people in the place you want to go to what if that research took months or even years right it's so easy for us to buy a plane ticket but when we start to I think imagine what truly sustainable travel could look like and I'm going into like you know speculative fiction and fabulation uh worlds here but you know something truly sustainable might include like you only being able to travel once or twice in your life and what if that meant not taking a plane or not being able to take a plane and I you know there's a degree of I say this because we have to be able to imagine different worlds and we have to be able to imagine worlds that don't look anything like the ones that we inhabit um and and there and and to fall in love with that imagination and the capacity to um you know uh imagine things differently and and what it might mean to be an honorable guest right outside of just being able to pay someone enough money so that you know for whatever reason sorry I interrupt no no no wor right H yeah all very important points that I I know that on your podcast have been conversations about de growth about like traveling locally about like what does it mean by traveling you know like St staying home as a form of travel and you know all these new Concepts and I really appreciate that you uh ran a season in one season or two seasons in Spanish one there's another one coming but yeah awesome and as you said like you know you want to include like more locals into the conversation and also as you said like locals may not necessarily have the same understanding or may not be informed enough to to actually see the consequences um uh because of because they have to because they need to prioritize economic benefits or like what they believe that that they're getting right right um not understanding tourism leakage or anything any of those Concepts so it is it is really important um that you're doing that so thank you and actually uh the next uh topic which is probably the last topic of this conversation because like we can go on and on I'm sure that we can talk uh about things for days um so you mentioned a little bit briefly just now about the idea of radical Hospitality right and so what so it's it's kind of related to the pretty extractive and neocolonial trend of digital nomadism and and you advocate for radical Hospitality a completely different way of looking at or doing Hospitality could you please unpack this concept for our listeners and what exactly does it mean to be colonized ality what does it mean to be a respectful and worthy guest and what role should the host play wow okay um that's a that's a lot a lot of really great questions um I'll start with radical Hospitality I guess it's something that I like to leave personally for me undefined although like there are many definitions of it and I think generally speaking the term uh was coined within uh Theology and I think Liberation theology if I'm not mistaken uh interreligious studies so uh it does have this kind of you know uh to some degree anyways Christian or or theological kind of basis historically uh but if we look at the words you know radical means a lot of things I think we grew up with a kind of strange version of it but you know the roots of the word uh the atmology of the word means rooted rooted to be rooted right and uh so rooted Hospitality um and I think to a large degree for for me what that means hospitality is essentially the relationship between the guest and the host it doesn't mean they're automatically guests and hosts to begin with um but how that relationship is formed why it's formed where it's formed when it's formed and that's that's where the rooted part comes in um so you know I also spent most of my 20s when I wasn't traveling working in the quote unquote hospitality industry uh in hotels and restaurants and bars and Catering events and all of that and basically especially in in the hotels and and Catering um we had to do the same thing the same way all the time and I remember working for you know a couple big hotel chains and basically didn't matter where you went in the world they did everything the same way because the understanding was such is that we want our clients to quote unquote feel at home when they come here and it's not like you're it's not they're not actually feeling at home they're creating a sense of home within that brand or industry that replaces home right because you're not at home right so so radical hospitality is this notion that uh it's first of all local in nature which means that it's um it can't be uh what's the word outsourced it it can't be standardized or homogenized because you know for example here in Waka like there's this kind of like um I mean it's it's not a joke it's a it but it's it's a little bit of a joke that like all the women uh the chefs you know of the households in Waka even if then within the same Village they all have a different version of uh the local of the they all have a different recipe of the local dish right of their Villages like like local dish or dishes every single family has a different recipe and the women will go to their deaths to to prove that and to say that to make sure that it's understood right and that for me is like one tiny little instance of radical Hospitality that um even within a a tiny village everyone's got their own version and everyone's respected for that and it's not like no we're going to do it the same way so uh so it I think radical Hospitality in that understanding is something not only that can't be outsourced or commodified or standardized um but it's something that subverts the the industrial hospitality right or the hospitality industry it's saying you cannot get this anywhere else right and it's not just a way of relating to for example someone who might sell you uh a a plate of mle right or a tah or or a particular food or even clothing um but how we are with each other right I think that that's really at the heart of IAL hospitality is how can I be with the other in a way that accepts them a priority before you've met them and then also takes them at their word without kind of applying a kind of prejudicial reductionism that says that oh because they remind me of that person I hate I'm not going to talk to them or because they voted for this person you know they're not on my level or whatever right because all of those ways of thinking the ways that we've been taught to understand the other cultural other the neighbor The Stranger Etc are all ways to just try to make sure that they're either on our side or not right it proceeds from a a level of distrust right that's that's the foundation is distrust and you know I think what of course what that does is it produces en enemies and enmity right the the nature of being in opposition or or in in uh in aggressive opposition to someone else and you know I was just thinking about this the other day is that I think for me the the nature of solidarity is to uh undermine and and subvert in its entirety enmity right and so it's not to say that we're going to find a way to be exact the same it's a way to try to honor and celebrate our differences as a uh as a Great Canadian once said um uh not in spite of our differences but because of them right and I think that that's what tourism destroys essentially what the industry destroys because it creates this infrastructure wherein everything either has to be or should be the same everywhere and for the people who don't want that we're going to give you this right which is not the same but it's still made for this kind of single serving um experience right that doesn't actually deepen our relationality and our way of being in right relation with the world and with with other cultures and with with ourselves and with our neighbors right so um that was just the radical Hospitality part and so I think you know these questions about like what is does it mean to be a good guest and a good host um these are things we can ask ourselves in the places we live in right and if you don't if you're like wait what I'm why am I a host or why am I a guest then maybe wonder how you could be and how maybe our ancestors all of our ancesters might have understood themselves in that way and not just as Citizens not just as taxpayers not just as you know Travelers or you know whatever demographic you want to slap on someone you know Identity or whatever but guests and hosts um and of course there's just you know so much more that that could be said but um I don't want to yeah but I I love the way you deconstruct the the common understanding of what being a host and being a guest mean and and just like thank you for all the all these work of wisd it's just make people people think more about the relationality you know as you said what what kind of what kind of unique and meaningful relationship do we want to to establish to create with with the communities where we live in and with the communities where we go to or travel to and so um all right wow like time flies Spen for an hour already uh yeah so there's just so many other topics of interest that we both share um again that we can you know go on and on but I just really wanted to make sure that you have a little bit of time to share any projects because you talked uh earlier on about um not wanting to prioritize the the podcast at some point and focus on like your other projects so would you like to share with our listeners um like any projects that you're working on uh currently or maybe if you want to talk a little bit more about Waka profundo or any tourism initiatives or writing projects that you wish to introduce to Alis Smith yeah well I guess before I do I just say thank you so much Vincy for the for the time and the Really incredible questions um I'm really grateful for the opportunity and and also for the work that rise is doing I definitely feel a lot of uh solidarity between and and sentiment shared sentiment between what I do and what you know the end of Tourism and Rise so I really appreciate it absolutely well likewise likewise it's such an honor to have you as a as a guest well like to kick off this new season I am really honored and yeah so like would you like to share a little bit about your project before we wrap up sure sure yeah um so Waka profundo was kind of like this like tour company that I started in 2016 and it was like I got to Waka I was like need to make money somehow okay so I'll start working in tourism I started doing this you know kind of chocolate tour and I just hated it I really hated it you I was like I was like wow this is what it's like to be on the other side and and so I started to be like okay so if this is if this is going to be something you're going to do why not make it so good that you would actually want to go on it you would actually W to experience this yourself and then with that there was also this understanding okay but like this is still within the tourism infrastructure it's nearly impossible to get outside of that to some degree uh within the context of you know giving tours or anything and so with a you know a few few local friends we began wondering about okay so how can we actually use the these opportunities and the themes Within These uh sessions which later became kind of Storytelling sessions to to undermine all of these uh the assumptions right the entitlement that that tourism brings with it and we I think we've been really successful in that regard um and so but now we tend to focus more on student groups from different universities uh in the global North and and Mexico as well um uh so that there's this you know longer term learning you know weeks as opposed to hours and within that time try to you know really plant and water as many seeds as we can so that when people go home young people and sometimes older people as well when they go home they have um you know maybe they have the seeds but maybe they also have uh the will the want and the water uh to to to plant those those seeds in their homes right in the places that they come from and do the work that needs to be done in the places that they come from so that's what it's kind of become um it's definitely this very kind of uh difficult dynamic because it is still within it does still exist within a tourism infrastructure right and at some point I think that while this works it's like getting 20 people on a plane or two planes or three planes or four planes you know at some point like that might not be sustainable anymore so uh yeah so I don't know but um apart from that I've been working um on personal storytelling as well as writing um I do I do a lot of writing now essays uh mostly um but working on fiction as well and um people can find my my writing published and otherwise at uh Chris Christ to.sub stack.com and the end of tourism.com uh for those who'd like to listen and of course I'm very much open uh and and welcome any commentary or feedback that anyone uh or or potential guests so thank you I would I would strongly encourage anyone who is currently listening to this podcast um to really check out PR's work it's the podcast It's amazing And I've like you're going to to learn and and get the tools to to really help you deconstruct some of some of the mainstream and Colonial thinking that we inherited from from our world and from our history one last thing at Rice travel Institute we're currently working on a decolonizing travel ebook for travelers and by the time that this app goes live the ebook will have been published and Chris has kindly contributed a quote to the project and I'd like to ask you the same question again it doesn't have to be exactly the same um what does the colonizing travel mean to you yeah in a in a sentence in three sentences that's that's difficult but um I think decolonizing travel is certainly a lot of things um I think we have to be very very concise precise and careful about uh words like that uh Concepts that can be easily um misunderstood we'll say and even appropriated for for reasons that uh you know are not intended I guess yeah um but I think perhaps to decolonize travel uh includes ways of understanding our our moving bodies Our moving cultures our understandings of travel that are not um that are not solely based around us uh that are based around how we got here you know and I'm talking about ancest Al as well yeah um talking about migration talking about Exile and and and all of that of course um and so I don't think uh there's any kind of Silver Bullet um solution or answer within uh the possibilities of decolonizing travel which I think is important too it's to say that whatever work that we undertake uh to ly court and coax new and more uh beautiful and rooted and healthy worlds um towards us is is not going to be finished within our lifetimes this is the work of generations and and so uh with a little bit of humility right that uh we we're not going to get everything done probably probably not anyways in our lifetimes and with um a degree of uh I think uh you know Nick mon Montgomery and I can't remember the other author's name put put out a book some years ago called joyful militancy and I think it's really important that um the way we proceed uh with travel not just as a concept but in our own travels has a way of rooting itself in in in our home right like how we are with the Foreigner uh how we are abroad uh reflects how we are at home and so you know there's so many possibilities and ways of dreaming different ways of travel that isn't hitched or bound to tourism but it takes it takes work and it would properly take work right what would it mean to walk to the destination or the place place that you want to visit right and how would you do that and how difficult would it be right and not just like economically speaking right not just time but how might that difficulty actually serve the world or worlds within you might want to live in or the people that you're going to visit that they might want to live in right so maybe in a nutshell it's it's uh uh it has something to do with understanding how we got to where we are today in terms of all of our movements personal cultural Etc and and allowing those those histories um to have a voice in in how we and how we move and how we are with the other and and how we might be um yeah so that's all to say like I don't have an answer um and that's just because I I don't personally want there to be a single answer to that right and I don't think should be yeah that is so important to point out and which is why we've collected um a number of quotes from um like-minded uh you know experts and activists and Scholars like yourself to contribute to the project so uh we're very grateful for you and so yeah thank you so much Chris for speaking with me today um and this brings us to the end of our journey today and if you liked what you've heard and would like to hear more please subscribe like and comment you can follow us at um rice travel Institute on Facebook and Instagram here at Rice travel Institute we believe that travel could be a powerful tool for a positive transform transformative change for communities if if travel is welcome if you are a college student planning on a study abroad trip a professional thinking about that Gap year or sabatical or anyone who's currently tring the world and wants to understand more like what what how you how you can travel in a sustainable way we do encourage you to um head to rise travel institute.org for more information for our um educational courses so we'll be back soon with an other episode and until then keep roaming keep learning and continue to be a rise travel thank you thank you Vincy thank you Chris that brings us to the end of our journey today if you liked what you heard and would like to hear more please subscribe like and comment you can follow us at rise travel Institute on Facebook and Instagram here at rise travel Institute We Believe conscious travel can help us create a more just and Equitable world if you are a college student planning a study abroad trip a tourism professional who wants to create a more Equitable and inclusive industry or anyone who is currently traveling the world and wants to understand how to travel in a just and sustainable way we do encourage you to head to rra institute.org for more information on

our educational programs we will be back soon with another episode and until then keep roaming keep learning and continue to be a rise Traveler

2024-04-22 07:44

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