This week in Bitcoin- 12-15-2017- What is next for BTC? Simon Dixon, Australia, Segwit, Altcoins
Hello. Everyone. This, is, adam. Meister the. Bitcoinmeister. The. Disrupt. Meister. Welcome. To. This, week, in, bitcoin. Today. Is. December. The 15th. 2017. Buy. And hold, strong. Hand. Alright, we've got a really exciting show and good, morning, Asia and, Australia it's already Saturday there, and this, show is especially, for them because we have guests coming. From Asia and. Australia. You are familiar with both of these guys we've got Simon, Dixon coming from Hong Kong, oh yeah, and we've got the fun da you coming. From warm, and, lovely one of my favorite, cities in the world Perth Australia. So. Let. Us start, this show off with, Simon. He's always got a lot, to say about the current Bitcoin. Situation. What. Do you feel like we, should start off talking about here with Simon. What's a big story you want to talk, about. Me. Yeah, okay. Well. I mean maybe let's, just do a general, overview of where we are since we last spoke so I think when we lost bike. We. Were in the midst of. Bitcoin. Cash becoming, a thing so it just, it. Had a big pump on the Korean, exchanges. And. I. Think it was the weekend, where where, there was a lot. Of panic and some organised. You. Know some some organised I. I why, we called it manipulation, of the markets in order to try and drive, people. Into thinking that Bitcoin was about to fail and Bitcoin cash was about to take over. Since. Then we've, just seen just. An incredible. Rebound, we've, seen an immense. Amount of volume into the crypto market in general. We've. Seen Bitcoin. Approach. Record, highs and it looks like we're. Approaching for the end of the year as we enter into the the, holiday seasons. We're around $20,000. Bitcoin, which is. For. Me it's. A little bit scary because I like to see markets, move a little bit slower a little bit, rationalized. But. Now we've passed over, half a trillion, dollars of market, cap now I remember. All the criticisms. Over the years that people used to give there's not enough liquidity you. Know and, and, every every, year now we just seem to be every every objection that's that's, been thrown a Bitcoin is kind of bitcoins just. Passing. Through it all so, is, it's just amazing to see right now I I. Wake, up every morning with, with two words on that. Seem to summarize. Every day and that's excitement and overwhelm, I don't. Know if everyone else is experiencing, the same thing but. Every single day you. Know I'm just getting people that, want, to contact me the new, oh yeah, that's that thing that Simon was talking about you you know a long time ago and and all, of a sudden they're all crypto traders, they're all asking what all coins to buy. You. Know my answers all of my answers always been the same the bitcoins, the only thing that you. Should start with, you. Know learn how Bitcoin works learn, what it's like to earn your own money spend, your own money. And. You. Know have, a deflationary. Monetary, policy. And. Then, once you've learned you know I mean the first step is most people go to coin base or something to buy some Bitcoin and then, as soon as you've gone to Quinn base you want to learn how to actually store it yourself and get a hardware wallet and learn, the power of actually being, in control of your own finance. A. Lot, of people I guess never get past that phase they buy on coin base or then they hit the exchange and suddenly they're becoming all coin traders. And. They. You know the next question is or what's better value than Bitcoin what should I be what should I be buying safe, mint. There's there's a speculative, frenzy. At the moment which. Does mean that at some point you. Know there's going to be a correction, and then all these people that never really understood crypto in the first place, don't. Have a have, a good understanding will. Be the first to sell. Fortunately. We're in a situation where Wall. Street has now opened on the marketing, machine they. Created a futures market they told the world that bitcoin, is a is. An asset that everybody, should be interested, in and. After, the institution's. Start playing around with a bit of futures trading, I think the institutions, are going to learn the power of not. Having to rely on someone else for custody of their assets, and. So. We've, we've just opened up this ginormous marketing.
Machine I think, it's very ironic that, over the years talking. Of Australia, the last time we spoke in Australia, if. You look up a presentation, where I was saying a bank it was it was presented to a lot of banks and I was filling them on on the history, of, Bitcoin. Prior, to the word blockchain, becoming, their pet word, and. It was I think the title of the video was the Bitcoin. Is the technology behind blockchain. Because you often get blockchain the technology, behind Bitcoin sauce I'm, trying, to explain that and fill them in lost. Summarized in Australia. But. I find it very very ironic that for all these years the, banks and financial institutions, have, been trying, to put Bitcoin, on the back burner pitch. This concept, called blockchain, say we hate Bitcoin, but we love block King and. Yet the first, application. Of the years and years and years of banks saying they're going to change everything with blockchain, the. First application, that people actually use that actually gets traction is, guess what Bitcoin trading. So, now they're realizing the, blockchain is. You. Know not necessarily what. They thought it might be they've. All decided to, build some new centralized, databases, that they're gonna click gonna connect together all, of a sudden the ceos is more interested, in things that the CTO, is telling them this doesn't really help us that heart, and, yet, the first application. That they popularize, is Bitcoin trading so now, you. Know all of the the markets around the world are realizing, Jesus. This is a really, popular new. Asset class that's emerging, there's, money to be made and, so. Now the the, new wave is that all the financial, institutions Asians and all the the. You. Know and all of Wall Street is now going. Out there promoting Bitcoin, realizing, if you can't beat them join them creating. Their own products, and now we're about to enter the next phase into 2018. Where, Wall. Street decides okay we need some retail, based products these features are a bit too complicated for people and. Right, now we're, at a very critical point because I feel that we're in the midst of a bit of a corporate takeover of, Bitcoin I, feel. That the community has been so busy arguing with each other over the last few years about how to scale Bitcoin. The. Now the banks, are ready to come in and, offer, all the products and and most. People are going to be it doesn't feel me too much because I know that at some point these. Large financial institutions. And they're going to create products that allow people. To get into Bitcoin easy but. Also these banks are also you, know still have systemic risks, they still have structural. Problems, we, haven't solved anything from, from. The beginning of the financial crisis, in, 2007. About a decade, ago now, and. So there's, still systemic, risk in these systems and so people still will learn the lesson just. Like if I rewind, this back this is so similar to, similar. But very different to, what we experienced in 2012, when you. Know everyone was kind of and, then you know mouth I guess 70%. Of all bitcoins, ended up on mouth cocks man. Cocks got hacked, and I've got to tend to be problematic, and then, everyone learned the lesson that they should own their own Bitcoin, um so, I think we're gonna see a similar, thing but this time is gonna be a grown-up version and a much larger version where.
All, The newbies are going to be entering into these. You know well the institutions, are looking at the futures products, Wall, Street are realizing, we're going to record volume here over any of our futures, this is a product. That's capturing the imagination of, the entire world. And. Then Megan a-star, you. Know building retail, based products and ETFs, and introduced, counterparty. Risk into, a zero counterparty. Risk protocol, and. Then these people with this ginormous marketing. Machine that's coming from this mainly, centered around price, speculation. Future. Wall, Street, will. End up with a load of people realizing, that they need to take those bitcoins they need to earn their own private, keys you. Know you look at treasure and, ledger they're there orders, are going absolutely. Explosive through the roof, they, can't tip enough Hardware wallets which is a great sign so that's what's more interesting to me how, many Hardware, wallets are being shipped versus. How many people are signing up to exchanges, and I'd love to have some kind of matrix of how many people are leaving their coins on exchanges, versus. How many are putting it on Hardware wallets because I see, the hardware wallets, as the ultimate. Adoption. So when, people own their own Bitcoin, that's when we are getting where we are and that's growing at a very fast rate but my fear is a bit too much of this new, volume is sitting on exchanges. You. Know ready to to, jump into the next all coin and or, whatever it is so we're, in a bit of a speculative frenzy, which means that when we will get a correction at some point but, with every correction. Will. Get significant, progress and, people moving to hardware wallets and. Shaking, out the week adds Adams always talked about the strong hands we hear about you. Know we're here trying to get the strong handed option so that. So. That throughout, 2018, we, will. Get a lot of that I think and 2019, people will learn the lesson and then 2020, we enter in coughing, and we start a whole new phase of innovation, and whatever's next from there wow. That. Was a totally, awesome summary. Of what's going on in you, know you brought, up something and I'm gonna I'm gonna probably make a show about this in the future how, many hardware wallets, are being shipped this. Is a great measure of. What is going on in something people have not really talked about and and and compare that to you, know we do talk about how many accounts, are being opened, at coin base but. What really is more important is how many people are learning. And progressing and, becoming true veterans, and getting. These hardware wallets and being responsible, you and I were just in Korea and, we're, asking. About this in a second but what I've heard is that most people in Korea they just keep their a coins on in exchange and. They're just there cruising for a bruising, over there I mean it is, they're. Asking for some trouble but I I also want to thank tor over. In the UH in. The, super chat thank you very much for that you Rockman. Found. That like button, everybody, and have a strong hand Nathan, a lot was just said or it's a fun D at you that's what that's his name I know, the dude personally, from Perth I call him by his real name but he is the fun da you what. Do you have to say about what Simon, just brought up a lot of things you have any commentary, on all that I only. Just grabbed my pen in the last section and tried, to quickly um clearly, jot down a couple of notes. Starting. Off with the price moves that were mentioned. The. Day that why, it was the second day after we, hit the sixteen thousand, US dollar mark I. Worked, in - sorry, I walked into work, and. I kind of felt like a bit of a rock star not.
That. Anything was different that day but you know I walked, onto the flight deck and one of the doctors was like oh, man. You know did you see the prices oh I can't believe I didn't buy it when you told me to you know like I this. Is, back. In August. When we were sitting around you know five six thousand dollars or whatever. No. Actually would be like Jewish and then. One of the other nurses when I came out on, to the floor was like oh man you know can you believe this. You, know because he was like I'd want breaks eight thousand dollars and I was like if it breaks eight thousand dollars you owe me a coffee. So. I get a free coffee so that's awesome. As. Far as the adoption in the banks that's I, find. That a really interesting one. From. An individual, level we might find people more. Willing to take on. The. Risk themselves, not. The risk really but the UM the. Management of the funds themselves blowing. Things on to hardware wallets well, I think you might end up finding that a. Last. Percentage, of the holders, inside, a banking, system are those who are used to dealing with it on a. Business. Level so. You'll probably find a lot of those businesses in upholding it on the the, exchange of the current time or whatever so the banks, and. They. Put themselves at risk more those, question whether the dollar value is, going, to be held there or on the hardware wallets where it's safer. I, definitely, agree with that, the. Metric of who who. Owns things on hardware wallets versus not, on Hardware wallets I. Know. On one of the group chats that I was on a lot. More people percentage-wise. Are. Starting to hold hardware, wallets and I'm seeing people oh yeah I'm ordering several who wants in type of thing and, that. Way you're still getting a group effect but I think it's a once. You've been in it for a couple of months and once you're more comfortable with the the system and once you no longer I need, to trade every day type thing it's, those people that are in it for a quick buck by trading. That. Are going to be holding that yeah, a comment, on that I think. Is is I. Know. People, that. Were, here in 2011. And. They're. Not incredibly, wealthy and the. Reason they're not incredibly, wealthy is. Because, they spent the last seven years trading. And. The. People that didn't trade are. Incredibly. Wealthy right. Now and you know a bank to the Future we only deal with accredited, high net worth investors. There, is an, incredible. Amount of accredited, high net worth investors that, have come from this sector now you, know we've been through. Verifying. You. Know a couple of accounts a day to verifying. Thousands, of accounts each day. Or. Each week rather you. Know and that's that's testament, to, this and say my. Observation. Now while there may be a load of people that have called all the right icos and called all the right all, coins, and, sat through this, but. The the people that are really wealthy didn't. Do too much trading, they just sat there and. So. I think it's you. Know it's an interesting observation that. Humans. Have this desire, to wanna I, think. It's a psychological thing where they feel like they have to earn their money so, they want to spend time you. Know doing things which actually makes, them earn their money whereas. If they just didn't do anything and, they are money humans. Feel a little bit weird because it's kind of ingrained in, our brain to think that way so I, think this leads to people wanting to over trade and then also just a you know the. The human observation. That, I guess we always look for value and we always look for things which are a bargain and that's, driving people, into thinking the. Bitcoins, too expensive even, though that's a very irrational strange, concept and, say, that, they're looking for the cheaper thing and so, many people as well when I did my tour across China with.
Jim. Rogers so, many people thought you had to buy a Bitcoin, to get in and. They didn't realize that you could buy $100 worth a Bitcoin or or, if you you know if you remember with a Bitcoin, and say these. These seem to be these three psychological, things, are driving people into all coin speculation. And some, of them are doing you know some of them are doing well I mean everyone's doing well in a bull market like this but, we what's. What's, really important, is how people come out during the bear market and and you know between. 20. We had a year and a half bought bear market, in Bitcoin, and. That was a very promising. Rewarding. Very innovative time, the, Bitcoin because it shook out the non-believers. And left. The believers, really really coding away and developing away so, I. Do, actually, look forward to, another. Bear market, the interesting thing is this. Is this is there's so much new money to enter this space so every time you do and, you. Know a shakedown because, of some some, reason that fears people into selling their Bitcoin. You. Know the institutions. Every single fund manager in the world needs to have Bitcoin in their portfolio. And. Because, they need an uncorrelated asset, whether they believe it or not so you just got this tremendous by. Walls and sucking off of bitcoins. That come along from that and then, that drives more volume into the old coins and other speculations as, they take a percentage of those and, get more speculative, with them but. My fear is the ones that, are coming in you know they're coming in through coinbase, they. Wanted to buy Bitcoin they end up by and litecoin they. Do incredibly, well because, of the bull market because. It like doubles or triples in, price and. Then they go straight into ICS and they never actually gets a Bitcoin in the end then. They lose their money and then you know because we enter into a correction, or a bear market and they say all that crypto stuff was was all a scam anyway. Yeah. You, just went through a scenario that will. Probably pay it a play out I'm glad. Everyone. Is noticing this phenomenon, now that there are all these people on this planet I think they have to buy one, whole. Bitcoin, they, think they, think of it as an. Entire stock, I mean that's what in, Korea that they were telling me the same thing. Speak. Why not why not bring up Korea right now Simon, tell us what you thought of Korea, when you were there were there any, observations. That just popped out at you so. Korea. Is just an absolute feeding, frenzy of speculation. You. Know we just saw right now EOS. Hit the thumb and then suddenly us up like two, eight eight of dollars after, after. Spending most of the year at likey a dollar and a half or something. And. So. It's just becoming a real, big pattern. Korea's. A little, bit scary because the behavior that's going on in Korea is exactly. The type of thing the government doesn't want and say. I imagine. Korea to be the next China although we we have. You. Know we we, have seen, Korea. Kind of deciding, what they want to do with this they recognize, that there's a lot of economic activity here. You. Know if they do what China did then all the jobs go to Japan or they will go to you. Know Singapore, where in, Japan and Singapore they are actually building stuff they're. Using this technology to build a lot of stuff in. China and Korea they were just using it for speculation. A lot. More although, you know China had obviously the very buoyant mining industry, which. Was adding a lot of value to the network as well, but, in Korea it's it's I would, guess you, know I've got nothing to base this upon but just from meeting people my guess is a. 90%. Of all the money there is sat on exchanges. And they're. All looking to accumulate, more Korean Won, the. This is just a tool to accumulate, Korean Won but. I'm I'm, okay with that because I think after you, accumulate, a lot of Korean Won through. This speculation, or if. You don't if it goes wrong percentage. Of those will go on and you know it's, kind of like China when. The ban happened, a percentage, of them just disappear and say okay this is over but. You, see the die-hard people, that. Reincorporate. You know use companies, in Japan and Singapore and Hong Kong, and. Then they no matter what happens they just they just won't go. Away you know and there's there's, a percentage that come through and I think we're just on a really nice adoption, curve you. Know I guess. Just. Like with, Facebook, the when that first came around there was probably a load of people that just signed up to get a date or something like that and, then. When, they didn't get a date or there's something really strange happened they just left and then, eventually all people, started using it because it had some kind of utility, for them and I think we're going to see the same I think, is it's ignorant, to think that not price and speculation, isn't a key driver of our market, it.
Certainly Is a key driver but, I think after all the price and speculation. Then. You get people that want to use this for adoption and when they use it for adoption, they add value to the network they create new user cases, and when, the user cases come along it. Drives, a price which enters. The next wave of speculation and, we just have this cycle all, the way through to adoption until, eventually you, hit the big the big big big one which. Is when your country, has some kind of systemic risk in its banking system and then, you realize the value of owning your own money being able to spend your own money and. The power of the deflationary, money supply, this, independent, of government and politics, well. It's not independent but it doesn't, depend on what your your, your, national your national, government. Wants for your country, and say which, is just it's just a really nice feedback leave it's, okay I come to terms with it, speculation. And the end of it will drive adoption. Yeah. It, is it, definitely, is what it is in South Korea day it is a nation, of day traders, I'd say they, don't care what. All coin they're buying. As long as it's pumping and they can make money off of it I mean they were all into iota, also, that week that we. Were both there I miss Simon by a day by the way everyone in in, Korea we Minister he was he, left a soul the day I got to Seoul but hey man that's how it works, the, fun da you obviously. We just said a bunch of other a bunch of other information was just giving out you, probably have some comments on that but also tell us what's up in Australia, in terms of the. News, of it because people are wondering what's going on down there -. Yeah. No worries. In. Regards to the network. The. Network, speculation. Cycle, I, wasn't. Gonna say they oh yeah, it's just um. It's. An interesting thought because, the. Underpinning. Mining. Fee. Was. Where it dropped - last time when it did the thousand-dollar. Down, to. $25. And. That, price right now is sitting in a couple of thousand dollars anyway, so I it's. Yeah, if it was to go totally bare market like that but. The actual. Bear. Markets, haven't been that bad for Bitcoin I mean it's a couple of percent I mean when. When. I got in it peaked, at 400, then came back down to, like 300. So it's a fair percentage but, it's. For. Us who've been in it for more than six, months you. Know anyone, in it more than six months. That's. Tolerable. Except. For those who are panicking, and the I need to sell I need to buy I need to do something with my coins with the big bear market was the math course once a man corks pumped it, 1,250, and then we hit a low of, $250. A year and a half later and then ironically the silk proves closure, was the thing that actually Pete's the the, ball market say and. Then we entered and we've we've been in a bull market ever there yeah. Yeah. Yeah yeah, continue. Nathan what you were saying before, no, that's right that's right so I just thinking. For a second the internet slowdown and, then in regards to Australia. I've. Also seen a couple of people that are new into it being like ah I just want to buy was, it I want to put put. $250. On ripple or something like that. But. You know it's. If. You're not gonna actually play with the technology, and move things you're, not going to get a feel of what it can do so you're not going to get an appreciation of, it if you're not going to move the coins and hold the coins yourself and riffle doesn't encourage you in any way to. Hold the coins yourself, I mean it's reversible, it's not. What the, rest of the even. The rest of the normal crypto world stands for it's. Um it's just kind of funny and then, also, Australia's, recently, got a new exchange, on the market so there's now I think. There's three major exchanges now, and it's, called BTC, markets, dotnet, I believe, yeah BTC Marcus net but they do require a minimum of $500. Deposit, which. Kind, of off put, some people but they've got the normal banking system in.
Takes, Through. Be pay and things like that and. The other thing that's interesting which, I got a notification on my phone from last night is one. Of the banks learn with decided, to implement or. Is starting to implement that, incident. Sending. Cross. Bank. So. Within ten. Minutes they're supposed to have the money from one account to another which. I think has been pushed a lot by the fact that we're, developing a technology which will allow that instant, send, without. An. Intermediary, having, to wait three, days for, a you know an interbank, transfer. You. Just bring up ripple I know that, some. People are big fans of that they don't understand, you know its centralized, and well they don't care because they're just trying to make more Bitcoin anyway off of it it assignment, brought up a very important, point that P, and I have brought this up before to that it. Seems, like in some people, they just have to do something. With, their Bitcoin they just can't hold, holding. Is actually, doing, something people, you, might not think you're doing anything but you are you're, just being patient you're waiting to him so it's 20 20 so what we have is that most people not do nothing with, their assets they feel like they have to do something, so like Nathan said they buy ripple they do they have they feel like they must diversify, they, have to get into things they do not understand. And we see it happening in Australia we, see it happening in Korea we got a guy here in Hong Kong tell us he sees it happening all over the world I guess, it just is human, nature and uh, hello. I don't know what to say have a strong hand people it might you might feel like you have to do something, but, but you really, you, really don't you're doing, something by holding, trust. Me on that one all right. Simon, uh, real. Quick uh you, were telling me the. Other day actually I guess we were tweeting, back and forth something. What's going on it back to the future there's something new there's uh. So, back. To the future we've been working really hard on our licenses. You. Know we've been we've been at the regulatory stuff for seven years now. To. Launch our secondary, market, for, equity.
Tokens, And what that means is that we're. In a regulated environment. We've. You, know over the years we've invested in some of the most valuable companies, in the sector and we have about you know four for, unicorns, in our portfolio, we've got companies like BitFenix, bits and crack and, big. Pay big, pays you, know many many of the, household. Names and over about a hundred different companies, and. In, we've, been we've been working on being able to take, the equity, of those, companies. Tokenize. It and, be, able to trade that in a compliant. Driven way, so. That now if, people want to actually you, know eventually once we succeed with this. Then. We should be able to create some kind of index, of Bitcoin. Blockchain companies, FinTech companies, and. Which, is just another way so rather. Than. You. Know many, many of the companies they're going to have choices of what they do throughout 2018, I don't think any of the companies that kind of IPO, I think IPO is just disrupted, for our industry, at least. Anyone. Has a desire to go, through that process of listing on NASDAQ, or anything like. But, I I believe, that they do want, to use, you, know the blockchain and some kind of technology, to be into, to. Access capital, capital, markets, in the future so we've been working on our secondary. Market for private equity. You. Using tokens and block chains as the, mechanism, in order to settle between those trades from one one you, know qualifying, investor to the other so. We're. Really excited to be able to bring, that to market and we look, forward to so Bloomberg covered that recently which is why I caught a bit more attention than what, we've been doing in the past, and. In in line with that we're, launching a token. To. Actually power the banks of the future dorkon platform, which. Is around, the rewards and membership token to actually. Incentivize. More transparency, in markets, so we have better investor, relations more. Due diligence and, getting people involved in the process of, conducting. More due diligence research. And analysis, on. These so we're, pretty excited to do that and. You. Know we're we're we're bringing a compliant. We you know is reached a phase right now if you look at ICS. They're being shut down SEC, actions, that. They're clearly stating, what this market will look like in the future and. We're, kind of hitting a crossroad, in this token market tokens aren't going away, they're. Here to stay they're, gonna look you know pretty different in the future and as the. Regulations, get tougher would like all the other regulators, tend to follow the SEC once the SEC makes our announcement, so the SEC has done their and for their first few enforcement, actions when I see a saying these are securities. And. Then other regulators, will follow so at that point we have two choices. Every. Broker. Dealer, every, bank every, financial institution is. Looking. At doing something in this market, right now you've, got you know large established. Public companies on banks of the future we've had public, companies, which are doing -, you know ICS and they need some kind of regulatory. Framework, around that so we, kind of have two choices one. There will be the completely, anonymous, illegal, ICO market, where you. Know it kind of looks a bit similar to what we've got. There, and that will continue and I will grow just like with Bitcoin you have an unregulated and, regulated, market and both and booming because, both offer different user cases. But. When the regulations, come through we're either just going to give all the business to the banks and the stock exchanges, and the traditional, players that all laughed at us over.
The Years that was telling us we're crazy that, never believed in this stuff and now suddenly they all show in art because there's enough money in this sector for. Them to actually react. Or. You, know we're, looking at bank to the future making, sure that we have a platform that, actually, meets some of the regulatory. Requirements. That meet some of the transparency, and disclosure requirements. But. At the same time it was built from a team that understands, what it means to be a Bitcoin tour and understand, what it means for, this industry and. You. Know the banks of the future we've always been about not, funding. Companies. That make banks. That allow banks to commit, fraud and cry and cheaper using a blog game but, we've always been about making. You know. Facilitating. And supporting the. Disruption, from these these new technologies. Say, you. Know you're gonna get you're gonna see that evolve throughout 2018, and say we're making sure that we've got that, structure. The, a, lot of as the regulations, get tougher and tougher and tougher. You. Know the the sector can continue to grow and self-fund. Itself from, within because that was the major changes, of I ciose to me while. ICS you know have so many problems so many challenges. The. Reality, is the net effect that, they produced in the end is they, took the the. Market, over you know over this half a trillion dollars with Bitcoin, because. We created a mechanism for. Innovation. Being able to self fund itself from, people that actually believed any innovation, no matter how crazy, some. People think it is there's a community of people that thinks it's good, and. They, can bring that to market and therefore we created a self-funding mechanism, and that's why we saw in my opinion massive, growth in 2017. It. Was because the innovation. Was also, being, funded, from within the community, and. We saw you know very much this. These these Bitcoin, and everything underneath it, play. Out where, Bitcoin. Took the role of digital gold and in lots and lots of other alts, and alternatives. Are. Playing the roles of trying to solve different niches, and. Really, at the end of this we're all going to be completely interoperable with. Atomic. Swaps and all sorts of stuff, so. Really we do have to become more used to the fact that there's. Going to be millions of tokens, they are going to be interoperable, and. You, know a lot of them can help drive adoption. As for, this one setter. That. Is just growing and growing and growing self, funding and requires no. You. Know you don't need to go out there and try and get a bank you know in the early days the big point, companies were trying to get, their funding and then they had to go to banks, and stuff like that bankers. Because they had the money but now the industry has its own money, and. We can grow this little mechanism this economy, that exists, outside of traditional finance which, I'm, really excited about there. Can oh. Yeah we're real quick pound that like bond everyone Nathan, yes, sorry. Just can I just ask a question or two of you from in regards to that last statement I mean, you were saying in regards to the ICO market and things like that. Bitcoin. Or within the ecosystem there's, so many other options that, people could do if they wanted to make money, offered obviously, we've seen people sign to fork and taking percentages, of that or changing, the, fork so that they get a percentage, of the mining rewarding things like that do. You see that as a way that we could be moving in regards, to instead of starting a new ICO and getting direct funding you through a TRC 20 token and. Creating, a new something. Based on a Bitcoin. Or a blockchain like that because. There's that option there's colored coins. Etc. Would, would, you see that is the way we could or that, could, be adopted and moved into. So in terms of hard forks yeah. Yeah. I mean I think we're gonna see tons and tons of hot Forks throughout the next year but one thing we have seen and maybe this will change I'm not sure. But, we've seen every hard fork be less effective, than the last say, you. Had the big one with Bitcoin cash which has you know immense. Immense. Financial. And. You, know well. People behind it that you could execute. Then. You had Bitcoin. Gold and Bitcoin gold was like okay well I got a load of free money on. Bitcoin cash that worked out for me. Now, let's have a look at another one and, then and then I think the last ones I haven't even known what. They are or what they're doing and I haven't even bothered to try and figure out how to access them so, they seem to be getting increasingly.
Less Effective, I know that we've just started to see them in a theorem, now, and. We'll probably start to see them in all the other protocols. Moving. Forward. Whether. This, I guess if you can take a you, know kind of replicate. What what happened with. With. Bitcoin cash where the credible team with large financial resources, guess behind the hard fork maybe we. Can reverse maybe that trend can actually be reversed and it becomes a mechanism for, free. Distribution free. Marketing, I think all the exchanges and wallets have. Had to think about how. They automate, a lot of the processes, of adopting, these. Hard Forks because you. Know the challenge with these hot Forks is that there's always one one or two people even. It no matter how obscure, the hot fork is that they're willing to threaten. The exchange, if they don't give them that money and Sue, them and then and all that type of stuff so it, creates a very interesting legal. Challenge, but maybe, it will be a new distribution, model I I'm, not sure I didn't forecast, what. Would happen with hard forks in, 2017. And I probably know can be able to forecast what would happen with them in 2018, because this is the real, dynamic. Part of the industry, that just throws these curveballs and surprises, at you. And, at the time they always lead up to lots of fudge and people saying all bitcoins, over Queens day the theorems over there it's dead or whatever, but. At the end of it it turns out that just through, this market, mechanism. Somehow. It seems to make everyone a lot more money even, though throughout. This controversy, so it's just it's just a very interesting observation but. I am you, know the colored coins and these things they they, never actually got the adoption, that they deserve for whatever reason. Aetherium. Was the one that got the adoption, for the small contract. But. Certainly, I see a lot of competition. That's going to be coming through for aetherium, you. Know a theorem, was going through the exact same cycle. The Bitcoin went through they said it's, the biggest it's the baddest it's the best technology, is the best thing you've ever seen and then, suddenly it starts hitting these scalability. Issues and everyone starts complaining, about the technology, and the scalability and, the reason is as simple people is cause it's getting adoption. Bitcoin. Went. Through the skating issue because it got adoption, etherium is going through the skating issue because it gets adoption, EOS. And and, iota and all these things now I welcome. The innovation, I really, hope that some really great things come from this, but. They all seem to hit they all seem to hit the scaling issue as soon as they get at auction and then a new one comes along there hasn't got adoption, and says we solved the scaling issue, and. That creates a new wave and these speculative opportunity. And new set of believers new, innovation, and at the end of all these cycles just. Like with a theory we now have you know people that see, that there's disruption in the capital, markets, as as, a result of the, only application, that really got adoption, on the theory in which as ICS and then, you'll see the next thing with these other block tanks and and out of it out of all these speculative, frenzy, you get new innovation, at the top an increase. In the market cap. And. You, know and they're just really really interesting. Things that the compliment. Scaling. Issues are because of adoption, people remember that so if your coin is having scaling, issues that means people are actually using it and so there are so few out, there that actually have scaling, issues because, hardly any of these coins are being, used. Remember, everybody's, links are linked to below the, fund da Yu Simons you can just check out the link section below always check out that, you get t-shirts trésor, ledger nano crypto, hwo comm, Simon.
There Was something you brought up at the very beginning, that reminded. Me of something that I have not heard you talk about yet you talked about a bit. Phenix being. Part of the portfolio, do. You have any thoughts on the tether situation. I've, got to be very careful because. Nation. As a shareholder yeah. But. All. I can say with bid Finnick is. It's. Been our most, successful, investment. If. There, was and I have no way of actually known because I'm not within the team. You. Know I speak, to the team regularly I've. You, know we've been working on various projects. But, if there was a big. You, know gap. In the, number of US dollars backing, tether. Within, two months profits. BitFenix, could plug that gap in a second. Say. You know it's. A it's, the. Growth, rate of that company, is. Absolutely, insane. And. The, people behind it you, know I think, they're, very smart people. You. Know feel comes from a Wall, Street background. And I think that's why BitFenix. At the moment is the, exchange which is handling. All this Holly, and. Can, handle the volume, and. Has, really you, know been built, to scale but Bill Phoenix is a different, you, know again it's. It. Serves a certain purpose. It. Caters. For a certain market, they're, looking to do less in the in the US market obviously because. They've had banking, challenges, and these banking challenges. It's. It's a very tricky situation being. A business in this setup because. The. You know the banks don't want you to go out there and tell everyone which, which services, you're using because, they're they're, kind of happy to serve, but. They don't want that fact advertised, so it puts people in a very tricky situation. Where you, might want to give certain information, but then you. Might lose the entire you. Know, the. Company, as, a result, of disclosing, the wrong type of information because. There's so many conflicts, and there's so many challenges in, this, intersection, between traditional, finance and new finance, many. Exchanges they're, the most exposed, to that because they are dealing with the. Intersection, between traditional, finance of new finance. Say. You, know I. Me. Personally, I don't have fear, for. For. The investment, that the company is. Performing. Incredibly. Well I believe. It's run by competent, people but. You know I don't, want to do the the, roger fair saying that the mal Cox was sold in whatever when, actually we don't actually, know. Any any the company knows what's actually happening, within those that's. Ecosystem. But, to me it just looked like one one person, did. An incredibly, amazing, job. Probably. A competitor, or some sort that had. You. Know of. Spreading. Something. That, is, very, you. Know not really fat based and. Then it got completely, wild, and out of control. But. In the whole time BitFenix. Morning just went up and up and up and up and up the whole time and the. Exchange still stays up, and. You. Know it's, become one of the most reliable exchanges. Out there, yeah. You actually, saying. How well BitFenix is doing that. That's a good to remind everyone, that if in fact there, is something went wrong with tether they could bail. Them out basically, I guess, I. Didn't. I you know you're, very high on BitFenix, it's great to hear that they are you know I don't I don't mean I don't know that much about how great they're doing finally I assume, you, know that all of these exchangers. Are making I mean. That the volume is so high but that's just it's good to hear it's good to hear and.
Yeah, As. The viewers can tell I didn't go over these questions beforehand, with Simon but I you, know he is a you know I don't, want to put you in a bad such a uncomfortable. Position there either so there, very good answer you, should take, everything I just said with a grain of salt because you, know I am, a shareholder and, I do have a vested interest in, Vinick succeeding, so to take, that information as you wish yes. Everyone, a very honest man there Thank You Simon all right Nathan, I keep on cutting, you off there man you you have some more I think you had somehow I'll stay as Simon, or something like that or. Yeah. Yeah sorry, one of the group chats I was, on, mentoring. The question they wanted to ask him you seconds just to pull it up I, know. I'm jumping around sorry but back to exchange is a very brief one during the last bear market, cex. Tayo they were the ones who ran a, one, of the first mining pools you, may be familiar with them they, actually. During. That period where nothing was happening they. Delisted, first they delisted, feathercoin and all those alts and then they delisted, they. Basically pulled their whole operation of, exchange, down, to just, Bitcoin, to fiat and, now. They've started adding first they added - and then they added, sorry. They kept like going through the whole thing first they added - now they're adding I. Think. They're adding a whole stack of other ones now it's just kind of funny anyway, so. What. Someone asked. For. Simon was. What's. The decentralized, essence, in, regards to Bitcoin is it still alive, I've. Got my own opinions here. You. Know it's a purely a centralized, model or you know with all the mining and everything that's happening. Because. We've got in, my opinion we've got three different areas of Bitcoin. We've got the, exchange. And the use case you've. Got the miners, and you've got the devs those, three, areas balance, out even if one area holds a majority the, other area can, a fork, off or do whatever and. Any time but they wanted to know your thoughts oh. Sure. I, share. A similar. Yeah. I share your, thoughts as well is exactly that so. Firstly. We. Bitcoin. Without, a doubt is the, most D central. Cryptocurrency, we, have so. Anyone. That says I've got a more decentralized, version, they just lie and. There's nothing, more decentralized, than Bitcoin does. That mean that bitcoin is fully decentralized and. Fulfills like, you know the the. Original, criteria of. How decentralized. This could be absolutely, not. Say. Bitcoin. And we have proof, that bitcoin is decentralized and. I'll give you the proof for. The last three years. The. Developers. Wanted, to take Bitcoin in a certain direction. For. The last three years the miners, wanted to take Bitcoin in a certain direction for, the last three years the users, wanted, to take Bitcoin in a certain direction and the companies, wanted to take Bitcoin in a certain direction none. Of them got their way despite. The fact that they had incredible. Amount of resource, incredible. Influence, they. May have you know we we had Roger, that controlled a certain part of the media at Bitcoin comm and Barry. Silbert that controlled a certain part of the media a coin. Desk and. Say, they you know these, two people these. Two different, thoughts of how to do it, led. To hard. Forks because they could not control Bitcoin, and you. Know the, the miners, got behind what. Was their favorite. You. Know fork. And the businesses, got behind their favorite fork which segue to X didn't actually turn out to happen in the end and. So we ended up with you. Know two or three coin well I mean Bitcoin gold wasn't really part of that to me but, we ended up with two coins and that's how we know bitcoin, is decentralized because. They. All try to get their way and they could no, one controls, Bitcoin, in it you. Know so then someone comes along and says well isn't, all the development, that you know the most influential developers, are all work for one company called, block stream and book, stream is funded, by an insurance company in the UK. As. One of their primary investors, and therefore is the, bank trying to co-op, other. Banks trying to co-op the development, well, let's say they are let's let's let's imagine that they actually are I mean firstly you know the develop behind this there. Is a certain degree of. Decentralization. But then there's more than this developers, that have much. Greater opinions, and. When much greater influence in, terms of overall, and. They, may work for a company and so there's a degree of centralization, within, the development. Within. The mining there's certainly a degree of centralization there, you know over.
Time Or. The innovation has gone to the place that can produce the tips and produce the machines at the cheapest rate and get, access to the cheapest electricity. Or. It's you know it's moved a lot over to. China. And then you have competing forces, and countries like Iceland, and things like that which are able to put certain, advantages. And, Canada, as well and so. You get this these these, kind of you know centralized, ations within the mining ecosystem, and then, you have a coordinated. Effort by businesses, that all go to a conference run, by coin desk and Barry silver, and they, all get together and say hey we need cheaper transactions, to settle and. So they all put together an, agreement of how, they move Bitcoin forward based upon their perception, of what's, right for it now here's the key thing every. Single player in Bitcoin, has their, own incentive. Mechanism, and we, shouldn't we shouldn't, discourage. That because Bitcoin works because, of the incentive, structure, everybody. Is trying to maximize their own self-interest. That's just that's, a that's the definition of, a free market, if you look at the classic, Adam, Smith invisible, hand free market, it's about pursuance. Of self-interest, and so, everybody, within this ecosystem pursues. Their self-interest, but, guess what the way the bitcoins, act, you know infrastructure. Was designed, is, the minor self-interest. May not be exactly the same as the developer, self-interest. And the developer, self-interest, may not be the same as the, business's, self-interest, and the business's self-interest, may not be the same as the user self-interest. The users might, want censorship. Resistance, and therefore they're willing to pay a premium for, privacy. And censorship resistance. Whereas. The businesses, might just want you know the the most centralized, way, of settling, cheaply. Because. They've got millions and millions of millions of users and they just don't want to do everything on chain and therefore, they. Might benefit from a degree of centralization, the. Miners are trying to maximize the, block reward and then eventually have to move over to transaction, fees as the block reward gets smaller and they're. Trying to manage okay what it where is you, know do we need to keep transaction, fees down so that the the, block reward is higher or do we need to you know an ad dealing with their own internal, economics. The, developers, are looking at they're trying to interpret what does the, Bitcoin community actually, want do they care more about censorship, resistance, or do they want Bitcoin to be a currency to buy ice cream you. Know or, do they want. You, know do they care about and everything. That they do has, an impact so what. We've got is this perfect, array. Of, chaos. With geniuses, in each of these different areas some, of the most intelligent people in the world that, are pursuing their own self-interest in. Their little micro. Part, of the Bitcoin community and, just. Like you know in the global, macroeconomics. You have an China. In America, where China is producing, all the goods and shipping all the goods out and, you. Know America are the biggest consumers. Of those goods and, America. Has the financial system at wall street and they, create bonds and therefore China is heavily invested in American. Treasuries, because they own half, of the government debt and, therefore. If China, you, know committed. Some kind of political war with, America then. The value of their Treasury bonds and their investments, would completely collapse and they'd, lose a part of their economy, which their shipping their goods to and therefore, and, then you add Russia to the mix which is producing, a lot of the oil and then you have the Middle East and you have these different pockets, of self-interest. In centralization. With, these nation-states, but. They have to figure out how to not bomb each other and kill each other because, their economies, rely on each other and then. You have overall, the global, macroeconomic, effect. Is, it you have some kind of decentralization. There, as, long as you know but. With countries, are the more influential now in Bitcoin, you kind of have a similar thing you have the, most decent, from ice thing I have ever seen but. Someone. Could complain about the. Pocket, of centralization that exists in development, and the pocket of centralization exists. Within mining, and the. Coordinated. Action, from businesses, to colluding, to get their own self-interest. And then. You could get confused thinking that Bitcoin over rule is centralized, and. But, as long as those in alignment, of interests, are different then. You have this quasi.
Decentralized. Network, and. You, and the Bitcoin has achieved that more than anything else that's that exists in the world today, and. So I believe that bitcoin is decentralized with. Lots of areas of improvement, for the pockets of decentralization. You. Know the pockets of centralization that can be decentralized but, the, answer, is that, nothing. Anything, that can move fast, anything, that can change rapidly, anything. That gets very large, consensus. For. A hard fork based, upon the fact that lots of people lost money in, a, certain investment like it did in aetherium means. That there is a much, much greater centralized. Force within that Network, then. There is in in Bitcoin so I challenge. Anyone to, show me something that's more decentralized, yeah. You just I mean you just brought, up a great point there be cash is a definitely. More centralized. The. Bitcoin, I mean they they had their heart for unanimously. Basically. They. Said, yes, but you also have to remember the Bitcoin started, the most dissent with most centralized thing you ever had yet Satoshi. Had, you, know the wallet was doing the mining was doing had to control, the development team and all, of them start this way it doesn't mean that they can't eventually, get to that. Point it's very hard it's incredibly, hard and you. Know Bitcoin was just a freak, that. Will in my opinion never, happen again the set of circumstances. That can't be repeated that. Required, you, know everything, that happens a Bitcoin over its history to, make it what it is but. If someone wants to try and replicate that it is to me it's a feat as hard as trying to recreate. The Internet and get everybody to create new websites on their new version of the Internet that they think is, technologically. Superior to, the one that people are using yeah. I agree new version, the internet not gonna happen this is that's that's, what the comparison. Is I like that comparison you'd bring up, some. People you, know and that what that was great everything you just said there, is this aspect of the community, of the overall, cryptocurrency. Community. That. Feels like right now, there. That cryptocurrency, needs, to be used for ice cream transactions. As you said or coffee. Transactions. And. So. You. Know segment, has, started, now it hasn't been adopted, by, everyone, yet we're, hearing a lot of complaints, about seg wit from the same people who want. Coffee, first. I'm going to ask you both about this but. The. Fund EA you do. You think the time has come for, cryptocurrency. To be. Used. In everyday, transactions. Or are we just not there yet I mean, I feel that we're not there yet but, uh what. Do you think the, fun, da you, yeah. So, bitcoins. Market, cap is no any of the market, cap of gold yet.
Until. It gets to that point it's not an International for everyone, I'm sure. A small company a small country. Could, take, on that but, really, at the moment if you wanted to buy coffee in lieu of that desperate, to buy coffee you can go to any centralized, service, and used, a centralized, off, chain, version. To buy your coffee. We've got coin jar here which has a card, we've, got coin base which has a card you've got a Zappos. So I think, it's a PO in I, forgot. Where that is like so it's mostly, there. Are lots of options if you really want to use your, Bitcoin. For coffee. Right. Now we're not in that position we, are still in a very early adopter. Area, of Bitcoin and. Until. Everyone. Including your grandmother is holding, Bitcoin I don't, think we're quite in that where, we want to be using. It for day-to-day transactions. And it, still doesn't have the. The. Application. Still aren't at that point where it's. Comfortable for everyone. In, the, last three four years we've moved from Windows, 98, to. XP. You. Know we've still, we're a lot more comfortable, but we're not quite yet. At a. Very. Smooth workflow. You. Know if people are still able to send things to the wrong address. By. Mistake and things like that the. Integration. Isn't quite there yet yeah. Excellent. Point about it people wanna if people you'd want to use crypto currency, to buy, stuff and, daily translate their centralized, third. Parties that can make it happen already, I think that's a really good point. Simon. Dixon what do you have to say about all that and have. You been hearing this FUD about saying, what that I've been hearing. So. You firstly. On on cash, firstly, do I think the world is ready and who knows but I'm grateful that there's people trying to push it so. You. Know it, Bitcoin. Has. Clearly, the you know a group. Of the most vocal. Cord. Developers, have, clearly, stated that. They believe the, censorship, resistance. And. Story value is on, their. Highest list, of goals when they're deciding what. Needs to be developed next, and they've. Clearly stated, that, we believe that, they believe there's, unlimited demand for on chain transactions. And therefore. They, need to develop something, which. Was Segway and lightning, in. Order to take transactions. Off chain. So. That you can have unlimited scaling. Off chain and. That was their their their, solution, because they you, know they. Believe that the the community wanted. Story. Values, and, and. You. Know and that that's their belief now. If someone, wants to come along and hard for Bitcoin, and say, my, whole goal is to turn Bitcoin, into, cash then. Go for it to make the changes make the tweaks you need to do and, try. And create cash and try and create digital cash because Bitcoin, right now is not digital cache let's face it. The. User experience of making a transaction on aetherium right now is, a, more, pleasurable experience, and making a transaction, on Bitcoin, but it's different risk profile. I'm, not gonna store you know I'm not gonna store my value in litecoin I'm gonna treat litecoin, as, something, speculative. That. I believe has a future, and for whatever reason, is a. Test net for. A Bitcoin or whatever the reason you come up with then. You just have to understand, that it doesn't mean you're replacing, your Bitcoin, for like coin it, means that you're deciding, to reallocate, your risk profile, it. Means it, for those that are exchanging, their Bitcoin for Bitcoin cash they're. Making a decision and their decision, is as follows they're. Making the analysis, that the. Digital, cash, is either. Going to be more useful to them or be worth more than, digital, gold and that's their decision that's it purely and simple because, this set of developers have said they want to create digital gold and this set developers, have said they want to create digital cash now.
The Reason that I still hold, a vast, majority in, digital, gold is for the following reason and it's. Because I believe, the. Humans. And firstly, I do transact, in Bitcoin every single day I don't just store it I use it every day it's my preferred, payment. Method and. But. You, are also wrestling, with the fact that the convenience, of sending it. Also. Means, that in two or three years time you might have just bought a you, know if you might be the Bitcoin pizza guy, and. Say that that kind of psychology. Encourages. Savings, rather than encourages, spending, so digital gold encourages. Savings, it doesn't encourage spending. Now. If you could create a separate. Product a separate, blockchain a separate, coin that. All it does is encourage spending. And, then. My personal belief, is that, you don't have a fixed money supply and it's not an investment because. Great cash is not a good investment, I don't. Invest, in you, know I hold my money in US dollars, because. I don't think the value of it is going to go up or down I just think that I could buy bread. And I, could buy water and more, people in the world are going to accept that US dollar when I spend it than anywhere else in the world so. Good digital cash it's not an investment in my opinion, and if, it is an investment what it does is it means that if the value of that cash keeps going up people. Will stop spending it and they'll start holding it because they believe they, have an expectation that, if I hold it I'll button I'll be able to buy more goods in the future so, to me this whole debate was. Well. You, know you can still use this payment mechanism, and there's nothing better than generating, well through your digital gold and being, able to spend that without actually having to enter the Fiat system that's, a this fantastic, utility, is great but. The reality, is is that no one wants to be the Bitcoin pizza guy you. Know that spent 10,000, bitcoins on two pizzas and ghost, out in history is you. Know the one that lost 10,000, bitcoins to buy two pizzas, and everyone's. Going to have that reality of the economics, a Bitcoin play out so, in. Summary, create. Digital cash my personal, belief is, the digital cash when when the track much investment and it won't make a good investment because. It should be stable and guess what there. Are already governments all around the world the exercise, inflation, and deflation policy. In order. To try and create a stable currency, many. Of them film and some of them succeed. If. You can do that on a global scale, in. A decentralized, way then. That that is just an incredible, achievement an incredible thing to actually and, a worthy goal and so. I look, forward to seeing digital, cash. In the future my personal, belief is that, it won't make a great investment it will be you have, to change the inflation, or deflation based, upon the economics, of the world, just. Like the, national. Currencies, create, a monetary, policy, to. Try and create a stable currency based upon the Mac the macro economics of that economy. But. So that's my, personal. Opinion. But. You. Know these, are all worthy pursuits I believe and. I don't want to see them all happen. No. One wants, to be the Bitcoin pizza, guy found out like but people I love, that line, all right the, fun da you, we. Are getting close to the end of this show here so I'm gonna give you the floor to, say everything, that you meant to say and any conclusionary. Remarks. And, take. It away the fun D. Yeah. So I'm just adding to that last that, last little bit yesterday on mute, I'm just ain't into that last little bit which, you said there and. That's. The thing all, the cache systems, are centrally, controlled anyway. So. While you decide that it's a safe place to store all most people are currently viewing it as a safe place to store your wealth. Look. At what happened in 2008, look at what happened to Zimbabwe, I've got a hundred trillion dollar note with a ten. Billion dollar note that was printed just a couple months earlier, you, know that's a. Huge. Change in, in. Value, in a very small space of time and. Just in regards to sacred. While. The moving average is still sitting around but 89%, I'm. Just having a look at sacred, dot party forged those charts, and. We peaked at twelve point two five percent, over. The past week with. A. Maximum. Block size. Being. One point five megabytes, which i think is. Shows. You that we are getting that adoption. Cash. Could be an option way, down the line but.
Right Now it's not needed and as, you said it doesn't really add value. Not. As the savings account anyway which is I think how a lot of us view Bitcoin, currently. A. Lot, yeah final remarks I'm. Really. Proud to see a lot more Australians. Getting into it a lot more talk about. The. Cryptocurrency. The. Cryptocurrency space, in general and, getting into Bitcoin getting into the. Getting. The security. You, know they need in, order to safely store their coins and. I'm just hoping that a lot of these people will stick around when. Ther