The Future of Blockchain & IoT || Robert Parker Interview
Welcome Robert. Please introduce yourself. Hi it's really a pleasure to be here. I've had the opportunity to be part of technology for a long time. From the 18 years I had at Microsoft where I worked across the five core divisions, this gave me a unique opportunity to see things both from the devices side, which Microsoft was actually nascent in, as well as the software side and participate in some of the revolutions that have happened.
So the whole desktop revolution was the first one, then the Internet happened. After that, we saw the first phase of the device revolution and that laid some of the groundwork for what was going to happen when mobile actually struck and then Cloud of course and then the real mobile revolution. I'd left Microsoft for Amazon at that point, but it was really a great chance for me to see when I came to Microsoft. Actually, it was not leading in some of these areas and sort of having an opportunity to understand what resonated with people and what didn't. Similarly for Amazon, it was really exciting to see a company that had its roots in e-commerce really have an opportunity to try things out with AWS, really have opportunity to try things out in digital businesses with devices like Alexa. And most recently I was the CTO of Samsung SmartThings where we were looking at IoT at Samsung across a broad range of consumer and enterprise devices.
And in that, really being able to drill down one more level and really understanding components I didn't really understand before like screens and manufacturing processes and some of these things. And so when you put that all together it has given me an opportunity to see where there's some real opportunities for synergy across all of these things. And this is what I think is a lot of power in the next phase in really both IOT and AI, which are really co-evolving because without IOT, AI has no way to really interact with the physical world. They're really evolving in conjunction with each other as you see sort of devices and the intelligence of those devices. And so now that kind of multidisciplinary background is more and more useful because you're having intelligence out at the edge. And really people aren't able to say, Oh, I'm going to put it here because that's where we've had the expertise or that's where we've been doing it.
So it's really exciting to have had that background and then find that everything's kind of come full circle now. Absolutely. And you had such a storied experience at Microsoft, Amazon, and Samsung really focusing on consumer facing products. You talk a lot about intelligence within devices, but these kinds of concepts are very hard for normal people to grasp. The explainability of the technology is often lost to them. They may be really enjoying the user experience, but maybe they don't know why their Apple watch just told them to stand up or why some of the technologies are making the recommendations that they do.
In that lens, what are some things that everyday people don't know about their smart devices that they should? So I think pretty much everybody would say this, but I'm going to give some context to it, obviously the challenges, your smart devices are connected devices. And so it brings with it a lot of security problems. And in that you know, one of the things people have to remember is IOT is not nearly as young as you might imagine. You know, things like the Roomba vacuum go back to 2002, but actually there were wireless garage door remotes in the '80s. And self-timing ovens and stuff like this.
And in particular, people say, well, why do I care Robert? I mean, those weren't connected in a digital way. Well, actually one of the things that you can do with your TV remote that's infrared is I can now because it's a connected device, unlike your door maybe. And so actually you have this huge spot of legacy that sort of come in and, you know, created a real management challenge in these older devices. They have a fairly limited shelf life in terms of being updated. That old router is just a huge problem for your house.
And, and it's because now it's much more critical before, if it's really just supporting your computers, it's not quite the attack surface it's now become. So a lot of that is thinking through this discrepancy and why it's especially a discrepancy is the number one buying reason for IOT devices is security and peace of mind. So 60% of purchases are security related. They're things like locks, alarms, cameras. And so, you know, then you're sitting there going, wow, I've got a discrepancy here between what's actually deployed and the whole reason that people were doing this.
It's slightly fueled by one other thing, which is about one third of all purchases are people between 25 and 35 years old. And so you also have a whole bunch of people that interact with these devices that aren't primary on it. So they're even less aware. And so, because of this, I think that you've seen a lot of changes recently, and new regulation has come out. Governments are starting to get involved.
They're realizing that consumers have a challenge. There are two sides to that challenge: security and privacy, both. And so I think that that's one of the things that people need to really think about with respect to their smart devices. First of all, you probably want to upgrade to ones that have a better security profile. People have fought through this.
And then you really think about some of the privacy implications because those devices weren't designed around them much like running Windows 2000 now. You're running an old operating system. It wasn't really thinking about security or privacy in the same way as now.
Definitely, one of the technologies that's often touted as maybe a solution or a partial solution to the security and privacy challenges you talked about is blockchain. We know that blockchain and decentralization is not a panacea. It's not going to solve all of our problems, but maybe it does have a future within the IOT -- at least IoTeX definitely thinks so. Where do you see the opportunities for decentralization in IOT and, more importantly, how can decentralized systems match centralized systems of today? So I think that one thing is we should really talk about the opportunity for blockchain broadly, and then I'll sort of talk about it sort of specifically, there are a number of problems in IOT that blockchain is uniquely positioned to help.
So one of the big problems is that you really want to verifiably share data without coupling or bottlenecks. And and so with that scalability and trust are some of the biggest problems that you have in IOT. Second problem that is sort of related to that is are these are big complex systems, and you would like to have good failure isolation. And so when you look at all these scalability and fragility issues blockchain provides an opportunity to really control that. So you can have a set of immutable data. You can control the optics in a set of ways and this really takes things forward because for all the consumers, the data you have all these different stakeholders they mostly interact with APIs and that's kind of a fragile way to do this.
And so one of the other things blockchain does is through the implementation actually creates a much stronger contract, both combination of ledgering and sharing of those ledgers, where you'll have a set of immutable data which multiple stakeholders are interested in and they're interested in the verifiable accuracy of it. And the other problem they have in IOT is over-trust. So you really want to have small, relatively untrusted devices. And so when we look at all those spaces, all the places to contribute, one of the questions that people ask is where, how, and how quickly. That's where we're going to start seeing it. I think there are some places where it's immediately applicable, you're going to start to see that.
So, in particular, anything that involves commerce. An example, you might have an insurance company, and it wants to, incentivize the behavior that you actually lock your door every time you go out and turn on the alarm. And if you do that, they'll lower your insurance rate by some amount. And you know, you're seeing a lot of cases like this, where they had a business reason, actuarial reason to be able to have that behavior because they need to actually have the change and to be able to pass that on to the customer.
At the same time, they can't control all the devices that are out there. And the opportunity is you're seeing a pushback, both from consumers who are saying "just because you're my cloud service doesn't mean you are like an ISP, being able to control your data, your house". No, I can provide a URL and go where I want. And this is something that is the next stage of IOT.
Customers are starting to demand more and more of it. Of course, the service providers are less interested in doing it. And so a technology will evolve that lets you manage the fragmentation and the fragility and the sharing and blockchain really allows you to do that. So what I'm looking forward to is that because there are a number of these shared data cases, shared contract cases you're going to start seeing a technical solution and it it's pretty clear that it will share some of these characteristics. Now then the question is what company and how, and that's where I think it uniquely benefits people who look at it from a platform perspective, because this is clearly a platform problem. And then it will become something where, you know, customers are going to pick just like data sovereignty, the companies that they both trust the most and have the most appealing and adoptable solutions to them.
So overall definitely IOT won't evolve without solving some of these problems. It's sort of gotten about as far as it can get in the monolithic silos. One of the things that has been a huge trend in 2020 is the bad people have noticed. And so they have gone into overdrive. Attacks on enterprises are up 3X attacks on homes are up 8X year over year. And so that's where I see a huge real opportunity is that it won't be solved by those vendors.
Like I said, HP is not going to solve that. They can be really slow to adopt these things. But at the same time, the enterprise are totally thinking about it. Cause they're like, Oh my God, I don't have a person onsite who can react.
My old way was I call up Jane or Joe, who's a local IT person and tell them, turn off all the HP printers. But that's that's not the case. I think will be big part of like 2021 and a huge opportunity. The companies aren't expecting HP.
The old way would be, in a non COVID world they would go back to HP to solve it. And say, you guys got to solve this, I've got this problem. If nothing else send your HP person over to my company or whatever. But now that since they know that's not an option, then they're really open. They'll say, hey I'll take IoTeX or someone else. Yeah.
We talked a lot about from the enterprise perspective, but I talk to a lot of our users about Ucam and things like that. Same thing. Users are the same thing and they're more powerless to some extent because their homes have turned into attack surfaces and they never wanted to manage this. It's part of why you had enterprise devices and everything else. And this is sort of what I call BYOD phase two.
There's two parts to it. So one is, it was BYOD, bring your own device, in reverse because basically you've got these work devices sitting in your home network, sharing your home networks and potentially accessing data that you didn't want to give up. I'll give you some concrete examples that people had given me that they're really unhappy.
There are people at Microsoft and Google that are really unhappy that their computers monitor how productive they are at home and what else they're doing. And it'll count you had 57 minutes in Word, but I noticed you browsed YouTube. You shouldn't know all that! My God, or they capture your daughter's screen time or whatever. And so all of this sort of brings these new use cases for, and this new awareness of like "oh my gosh I want to take back my data." I want to be able to tell my company what it can watch. Okay.
I'll put my work laptop into work mode now, and then maybe you can watch some set of stuff, but you shouldn't be go pinging my network and like doing all of the fun things that you, you were quite able to do when you were in the enterprise. And so I've seen this tension a lot and nobody has any tools for it, because the home wasn't designed for this at all, it was designed for wide open total sandbox. UPMP. Do whatever.
This is where you sit there and go, well then people want products that do that. So this is where Ucam is exciting -- they go "great my stuff is not touching this. It's like a black hole to them."
Yeah. I feel the receptiveness and we've tried a lot of different narratives through the media and things like that. But the one that seemed to really be clicking and maybe this was a snowball effect with the things you see in the headlines actually affecting people personally now.
And I think that was a big shift. But it's about blockchain, not just blockchain, but technology as the truth. Blockchain was always touted as decentralized finance for payments and asset exchange. But there's been so much talk within the industry about blockchain as: first for payments, next for truth.
It was applicable in that area, but actually way better in some of other use cases, which held back a little bit the adoption. But I think that now, like you're saying, people are starting, the immutable record of things is starting to become appealing. The fact that I actually can control my distributed share of it. So it's not both from a bottleneck and from a data sovereignty perspective. Those things are really starting to appeal to people.
So then, you know, I think that it will change people's perception. I also blame the VCs for this because they didn't understand it in any way beyond transactions. And so they just, all they did was hype it up and then people think blockchain is only transactions.
Yeah. It turned from a ledger to a computing engine, right? The equivalent would have been making AWS about e-commerce like, it's sort of like, you know, this would be like, no, you can have scalable CPU, memory, hard disk, whatever, network. And they'd say no, it's just so you can use a whole bunch of transactions like that. And then it gets sort of, would've gotten pigeonholed. But but I see that it's breaking that.
So that's why I think, you know, 2020 and more properly 2021 will be exciting is that finally we're breaking out of this little pigeonhole a little bit. Definitely. Definitely. We see the opportunity too to become a verifiable data as a service for the entire industry is kind of where IoTeX is heading in my opinion. But starting with the foundational parts of trusting the devices, trusting the data, trusting the insights and then offering those insights to other networks.
Yeah. I think that this is the right path because what I would as an example would be Apache Kafka and go back to 2012 with LinkedIn. And so there's sort of having streams of data and then everybody was doing the data lake thing, which didn't work very well. And so you sat there and said "Oh no, actually, people have a queue or whatever, they've got like these, all these ways to sort of manage streaming.
But if I can introduce a technology that I can do screaming and other things in one way, and then you sort of watch Kafka take off because of that and in enterprises, I think we'll see this exact same, that parallel. And the only way you had that though, was they had to sort of see LinkedIn have this across a whole bunch of systems. And that gave people the confidence to say, I'll give this a try because if they can do it across all those systems. And so you're saying the same thing, Oh, it works for this camera. You know, I can see these things then I think that you will have a similar adoption vector.
And it's this problem that you looked at it and sort of broadly speaking databases, streaming things like Kafka and then blockchain, as a verifiable shared ledger that you have. Enterprises will go through those that. They will sit there and say, I need to pick the stuff that goes live, but they'll need to do that. The big problem that I see for the enterprises is now they're having to share this data.
And like you said, they have two problems in sharing the data. One problem is all the regulatory stuff, especially since privacy is much more key than it ever has been. And second, is the way that everything is done through API and that really doesn't work out for people because then they have these rules that they know they can't enforce. Oh, you must delete the data in 24 hours.
And so that's where you're sort of sure that something like this will happen because the use cases are just going up, you have more and more of this starting to happen between enterprises. Enterprises have to share parts of the data. And then I see the accelerant to that being COVID because you sort of have these things like delivery at home. And people consume like a whole thing. Like for example, I'm on a business trip and my house is getting a new TV. But you know, that meant that I needed a wall install guy who wasn't part of the television that's being installed.
So Samsung is the provider of the TV. You'll have bought it through Costco. So Costco is the person who is actually delivering that.
And you've got delivery network person and stuff like this that you've got to set up box, got to hook down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there were five or six companies involved and they all want to sort of have some notification, including the FedEx person who delivered it. And that's where right now it's amusing.
I mean, it's actually a person. So this person grabs a tracking number from over here to there and there and does this. But they're seeing the scalability of that. So, cool times, very exciting what IoTeX is doing. Yeah.
One thing that really caught my attention that you said is the desire for even everyday corporations and even small to medium businesses to hold on to customer data is shifting from being an asset to now being a liability with things like GDPR and CCPA as those privacy demands increase. But everyday people in businesses owning their data and being self-sovereign sounds great, but it also has its pros and cons, right? On one hand, it brings self sovereignty and control. On the other hand, it pushes the burden of custody to less experienced users.
So how do you feel about this dynamic evolving in the near term and the longterm - will customers and everyday consumers really be ready to hold their data or is this going to be a thing that we never see? So I think there's a couple of things. There's even some technical challenges that are riding on this as well. So there are a lots of technical reasons why you're going to see more data at the edge for a large variety of reasons. I'll take healthcare as an example where there was kind of a reason to do it for processing and other reasons like and data sovereignty reasons. But guess what? Now, as they're starting to look at the amounts of data they'd have to move around, and some of the practical considerations, actually, they have to have certain devices to be able to just handle data locally because of just the scale of doing anything else.
And so with that, you start to say, okay, actually, you're going to have a set of primitives that go across this since a lot, like a bank account where I want to be able to move funds. Each place still want to actually be able to have a set of guarantees that are there and in place for me. And so, you know, in particular give you sort of one concrete example is a lot of people feel like when they're talking about like voice in their home, their sets of voice interactions and voice data, they don't want leaving their home. And, you know, then they'd like to understand that that really happened. Kind of like, the simplest form of this is pressing the red view button and having a visual cue or similar to what you sort of see with webcams when they have their green light turn on or things like this, but in there, you're going to see that, not just, so this is something that started in the device space, and I'm using an analogy to what, how are you going to see this in the data space? People want that. And, and, you know, we will have a set of guarantees kind of like, you can keep your phone number as you move between providers.
And what you're seeing is actually the cloud providers are also seeing this and supporting Federations. So Amazon has its outposts and other cloud providers have similar things. So that you're actually going to get to a situation where you'll have this Federation, but you're really dealing with the same primitives.
And you know, examples, I know many companies who use an S3 API locally. And so with this, it's definitely this trend where people want to be able to make those choices. They don't want to pay for something that they don't have to do. So IOT was one of the first places where it was just seen, you'd have these devices generate huge streams of data.
And just because of the way the infrastructure worked, that all goes up to the cloud, and then they stare and say, I'm paying huge amounts of money when I just wanted summaries or you know, other things. And so, you know, one of the things that's happened is on the cloud side, they do a fairly good job. Even AI can automatically determine kind of your usage of the data. And hence, you know, it was a warm, cool, cold, ice cold. And, but that didn't translate all the way up to the edge. Now you're starting to see this stuff move in a more fluid way, and this will be really critical for the next stage of things.
Now, one of the things that that brings with us is this problem is you want to still understand what's going on with that data. So you sort of need that, that meta layer, because like you said I actually have some of these regulations that require me to know everything. And so it doesn't matter if it was captured on an edge device or, or otherwise to the regulator. And so because of that, there's a set of audit functionality that I need everywhere. And this is what I think will drive platforms because just like commerce and PCI certification and stuff like this, you look at these bars and you're gonna say, I can't meet all of these without consuming some sort of platform technology that's uniquely good at meeting these bars because the bars are no longer easy. For companies to meet it, it's become complicated.
I think the good news is companies are finally getting some of these primitives because before they just had to manage it themselves. If you want private data, what would you do? Well, who knows what you did, maybe you encrypted your database. Maybe you didn't, maybe it was encrypted at rest. Maybe it wasn't, maybe had a contractor who didn't do that for a particular database file. We have seen all these stories.
And now the way that these companies want to operate is they want to be able to have some guarantees. Is my data all protected? Am I managing the privacy appropriately and meet regulations and give customers better guarantees. And this is really a sort of the next thing that's happening. And what's exciting to me is the first wave of this was all outbound to the cloud. And, and now you're really seeing it go all the way back down to the edge and kind of involve all the different pieces. And you're able to use some of the same technology that really evolved when they put it all this one place, and then I can kind of solve it there.
And so that's something that's going better and better. That being said, we're a long way from solving it, because one of the things that's really amazing if you look at a lot of the devices that these enterprises use, I was looking at cardkey reader the other day that someone because of COVID wanted to make some modifications to and realized that it's firmware hadn't been updated since 2017. And it had number of known attacks that you could apply to it. So really actually the physical security was to some extent, compromise.
It's going to take a while for us to be able to go all the way from edge to cloud, but this is something that is now becoming an option for companies. And they knew that, you know, like you said, the bespoke option wasn't, you don't want to think you had a choice of either going back to old school craftsmanship or, or using machine parts. You still want to use machine parts, even if you're putting them together. And, and so that's something that is really exciting now is you have options to do that.
Companies are starting to do that is important to them. Absolutely. Really great insights. I think the theme around all of the questions that we've mentioned, whether it's for privacy or it's for regulation or it's for just great user experience, there's going to be a lot of data out there. And with so much data out there being generated by edge devices.
One question a lot of people have is how do we establish a single version of the truth? Not just for direct uses of our data, but even indirect uses to train machine learning models. We all know about adversarial examples and how they can really mess up even the stack from platform to model to edge edge device that uses the model. So in the ongoing war against misinformation, we hear all these horror stories in our elections and with COVID. How do you think technology can help? What you've pointed out is actually you're seeing all the use cases are evolving in real time of cases where people want to be able to verify facts.
And this can be simple business facts like monthly active users, daily active users, the engagement of these users, all those other metrics, but overall, any one of these is a claim that's being made and you want to be able to verify dispute and audit that claim. And I think that we're starting to get more and more careful about those things. One of the things that's great is because of the technology that we have, we can look at data that's semi clean. So an example that you brought up, if you look at news sources and some of these other ones, you could basically be able to understand the intent of what was going on for that into something that you could verify or not verify, but most broadly you look at the business use cases for this it's huge.
So it's not just, hey, I think it would be great to solve this because of how people consume information on a personal level. Actually, it's more important for business systems because they're making decisions based on these things. And often in your partnerships you'll have that it will be about you're supposed to do X and deliver X. And one of the challenges has always been well, how do I measure that? And so now I think that we have more and more tools that allow us to establish these facts and then make it very verifiable, obviously blockchain is one great technology for the ability to audit the ledger and really understand how those facts were established. But you're seeing that for more and more processes and durability is really important.
People want to go back March 5th, let's agree what happened. Oh the service tech they did come out but, oh they went to the wrong house and, you know, the person reported it in half an hour or one hour. And so what we're seeing is more and more of the systems will do that. It dovetails into one of the big opportunities for 2021 is one of the things that we're seeing in 2021 starting to happen and happen sort of because of COVID is how to get better about this whole idea of lining up. And so instead, you know, you really want to be able to have someone do something like a doctor's appointment at 3:15. My daughter has an allergy appointment.
And, it'll be very important. It is very important for that to happen at a particular time. And in order to manage that it starts to go into all of these things where you'll sit there and go, wow, I really need to establish what happened when react to some of these things. And it's across a set of disparate businesses. And so you start to have some of the technologies evolving now that allow people to do that. And, it's really one of the things that's really critical is that it wasn't good enough for someone to just sort of send me a message.
That's why you got into the "Hey, your installers are going to come between nine and five" or "your package is going to come on this day" is how much you could get without an ability to start verifying those hypotheses and elements of those hypotheses and prove, audit, verify. And so that's one of the big trends that's actually been exacerbated this year by COVID is that you're seeing this develop much faster. It was kind of slowly developing before, but now all of a sudden, oh no, say you have a problem with your cell phone. They'll say, hey, I'll give you a call back. I want to be able to tell you, I'm going to call you back between 37 and 42 minutes, and I have to hit that window. And what are all the things that have to enable me to do that? So this is really emerging and I think you'll see a lot of improvement in it in 2021.
That's a really interesting point you have about predictability. I've always thought about blockchain as a very proactive technology. You're writing and self-volunteering your data to the chain, to kind of cover your butt. And later you don't have to go through the reactive litigation and things like that.
And definitely a trend in 2021 to see more truth -- just to close what are some of the other big trends that you see when it comes to our smart devices or how users use smart devices? 2021 is going to be a pretty big year because a lot of things are starting to come to fruition that have been kind of long augured. And they're not going to snap over, but they're starting to get adopted and they'll work together. So one of them is 5G - people have talked about for a really long time, but it's actually finally starting to go out and it's not going to immediately give that panacea of connectivity that people are saying. But it is going to start to push things. Simultaneously with that, you've got satellite and a few other low power connectivity options that are also coming out in Q1 2021. We're going to start to see this.
And you've got a new WiFi standard that's going to come out and it's going to pick up some momentum. All these things being that local connectivity is actually gradually improving. Still going to be fragmented, but that's one side of it is the adoption's finally there and the other side of it is the need is there.
Covid has has been a catalyst for a bunch of interesting things. I mean, a lot of people have talked about the obvious ones like digital and remote health. But some of the more interesting ones is that it actually demonstrated to enterprises that remote monitoring, like in manufacturing and in other areas, they saw the value all of a sudden, because I couldn't send that person in and then I had this and then they realized the value and now they're doubling down. And so then when they want to double down, actually one thing, holding them back and doubling down were some of the activities I was sort of talking about. So there's sort of this opportunity, but you're seeing this huge movement in things that were being slowly adopted and it's similar to workplaces. There was a certain amount of workplace automation, but now, as I'm sure that I'm only gonna have people in three days, or two days at the office on an ongoing basis, working from home is going to be a for sure thing, then all of these things in smart lighting in terms of enterprises and those types of things that were on this really slow adoption curve, it's sorta kicked them up into gear.
Third big trend that's happening is that lots of stuff in measurement is finally taking off. LIDAR is finally here for consumer devices, but you're starting to see some things that are getting a lot smarter in terms of the position. I know it's on top of the table. I know roughly where it is. It's not the, Hey, the only way I can find things and have that device beep at me I'm now getting a lot more spatial intelligence and AR/VR is good enough that you can do things like measure things now, and then there's a LIDAR, you're actually getting a precision measurement. And so all of that is sort of work together in a way where you're going to finally see a lot of these things where remote is much more feasible.
And, and it's sort of required for some of these use cases, but examples are companies where you can have a quote on your roof by just taking a couple pictures of your house and things like that. And obviously it's better with some devices, but this is where these use cases are really using this catalyst of COVID in the same way that you're seeing things. And in terms of healthcare where remote diagnostics are really important, remote health is really important. Digital health is more critical because you're going much less. The other thing that's partnered up with that is all that data need someplace to go and that sort of where AI is starting to help, but you're having a lot of these AI algorithms that now they're telling you, are you wearing a mask? Did you wash your hands out of the compliance on this? And again, it's being driven by this thread where it was more important that that compliance happened than ever before.
So with that, you know, what's pretty exciting about 2021 is you've seen a lot more industrial IOT adoption, before it was really vanilla. Like it was part of our project. You might have a couple of sensors that, you know, really making sure that the machine continue to operate the way it's affected. Wasn't really driving these, you know, what I would call it, digital transformation. But now it's really starting to drive the digital transformation. And you're one of the things that, so the challenge is that all these things are changed at the same time.
So you're sitting there saying, as I, as I want to adopt something might be new in the IOT space. I want it to support things like 5G. I want it to be able to support some of the new standards. And so for a company, this means that you have a lot more thinking than ever before.
You sort of want to have a world-class CIO, helping you make these decisions because there's more decisions than ever to be making. You're making them faster. So it starts to make a really exciting year.
It's going to be one where I think you're going to see lots of incremental changes across quite a few different areas. And that's where, for a company like IoTeX is really helpful because at that point, you need these spanning technologies for companies and you basically want to look at ways that you can bring this together and you need a high level of guarantee from a privacy and security standpoint, because the challenge is you won't get those in a federated way. You need it uniformly.
Absolutely. I think we are not quite at the singularity yet, but all of these things coming together, like you said, are really unlocking things that even maybe at the start of 2020, we would've never imagined. Robert, thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights with us and the IoTeX community today.
And we'll be sure to chat soon. Thank you so much. Thank you!