Why Marissa Mayer Is Betting Big On Consumer Tech

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let's talk with Marissa Meyer the longtime Google  executive and former Yahoo CEO about whether new   consumer technology stands a chance and where  the AI race goes next that's coming up right   after this welcome to Big technology podcast a  show for cool-headed nuance conversation of the   tech world and Beyond Marissa Meyer is here she's  the co-founder and CEO of sunshine and before that   was Google employee number 20 holding an array  of executive positions there for 13 years before   becoming the president and CEO of Yahoo now at  sunshine she has a new contacts app a new photo   sharing app and more and she's here to talk all  about that and plenty more with us today Marissa   welcome to the show thank you so much for having  me thanks for being here you know you're making a   bold bet introducing apps in the consumer space  where so many Venture capitalists and Founders   seem to have written off the space entirely let me  just read you uh what mg seagler who's a venture   partner at GV which is formerly Google Ventures  and one of my must-reads says about consumer   products today and I think the Folly of starting  them and I would love to get you to respond to   that um so mg says it really just boils down to  time we all have the apps and services we use on   a daily basis once one is lodged in that cycle  EXT it's extremely hard to dislodge both because   of habits and for social apps Network effects and  whereas 10 to 15 years ago everyone was gunko to   try new apps to see what might stick we're all now  stuck with what we have what do you think about   that well I do think mg is right about one thing  which is that consumer apps tend to be stickier   Than People realize yes there's low switching  costs you can try new things but people do have   their routines they have their habits and they  and they do tend to stick with them that said I   do think people are really dismissive of the  consumer space people feel like everything's   been done we already have our stuff as mg says  and I feel like when I've watched the pattern   of consumer technology over time people tend to  say that and then something new comes along and   they say well everything was done except for that  and then right you know and then then they say now   now everything's been done and then it continues  for a while like that and then and something new   comes along they say well well well that that  hadn't been done before you're right and that's   actually really useful and so I think that there  is actually more opportunity in the consumer space   than people realize that's one of the reasons  why we're very focused on it at sunshine and I   think that at the core of consumer what you really  need to do is focus on the user needs what is what   user problem are you trying to solve and you do  need to aim at problems that are pervasive that   affect a lot of users every day where you feel  you can add a lot of value I think that's really   the key um and so you know a lot of times these  are spaces that might be very crowded you might   have to do some disruption um and they're they're  bigger bets uh bigger bets in smaller bets right   because it's bigger in terms of the overall  target audience uh and the amount of time and   and attention you're trying to capture smaller in  that sometimes because they're pervasive they're   just a little bit amount of time every single day  from the user um and have they're a smaller touch   point but I think that that's really the key  is to not discount the consumer space as done   because I think there's a lot of things that have  yet to be invented that are incredibly useful and   instead to focus on those user problems and  those user pain points you're trying to solve   for and make sure that it's something that's  really relatable to a lot of people yeah I'm   with you and I personally would love to see more  innovation in the consumer space these apps are   just fun to use and anyone who says that we're  at like you know the maturation point for what   consumer app should be is totally wrong because  there is so much more to do and we're going to   talk about your specific apps uh in a moment  but the the interesting thing is you know you   talk about smaller bets right just a little bit of  time and actually mg's post was about uh be real   which like was this great antidote to the sort of  polished photo sharing that we do and takes like   what like 30 seconds a day to use and he talked  about how that was this big hit and then went away   and he continues his post and talks about like  you know yes you can do it like and gives tiktock   as as an example and and here's uh here's what he  says he goes but but but Tik Tock yes you two can   build Tik Tock all it takes is algorithms trained  over time on millions of users in China acquiring   another company which was already operating in  the US market and then spell spending billions of   dollars to Market it on meta properties to siphon  off users to your network and even then it won't   work unless your product is actually great those  millions of users will just turn so do you think   that he's he's overhyping the challenge I mean  it's I don't think that he's right in saying that   this stuff is baked but the challenge is great  right because if you think about the consumer   apps that have broken through let's say since I  don't know Instagram uh Tik Tock is is Tik Tok   the only big one what's your thought on this uh I  think that there are in theory that you know there   are more apps that of broken out in my mind I do  think that he's right there's a big barrier to   entry in some of these cases especially when you  talk about video because video is you know it's   expensive to move around it's expensive in terms  of user time uh in terms of how people consume   it it's seral as opposed to parallel so you know  the way you have to engineer the stream and things   like that just to make sure that you really hold  attention uh is more intense so I think he's got   some good points uh in terms of Tik Tok and Video  in particular that said I think that again if you   look at that core of what people are doing in  consumer what are you helping them do and if   you're helping them do something that they need to  do anyway and you're helping them do it better and   with new innovation I think that that is really  green field uh because I think people are always   looking for ways to be more efficient they like  trying things new right we are creatures that love   novelty and so I think that those types of things  have a real chance of of of breaking through and   if there's something that helped you handle your  everyday tasks again something that we really like   to focus on here at sunshine I think the odds that  becomes part of your routine and a critical part   of your routine is is is there so and that's where  you've decided to focus uh contacts birthdays   event planning photo sharing uh I'm a new user of  your apps I just downloaded uh shine and sunshine   context shine is for the photo sharing and it's  autogenerating albums for me already just like   shortly after downloading which is uh pretty cool  now I noticed that Sunshine's been around for a   while like about six years and I think was it Lumi  Labs beforehand or U but anyway um I'd love to   hear your you you obviously went through a journey  you know between founding the company and deciding   this is where you wanted to focus so can you talk  a little bit about that sure well when we first   started the company we knew the broad space we  were interested in we loved consumer applications   and we wanted things that were useful every  day but that's a really broad space so we did   a lot of experimentation to really think through  where do we want to start where could we add value   uh and we were really interested in people's  relationships how are groups formed you know   the soccer team the class at your child's school  you know your friends from college how are groups   formed what makes them cohesive how do they get  together how do you have those shared experiences   so we got very interested in groups and events  but we realized to do groups and events well we   really needed to help people stay in touch so we  started with contacts because for us those were   foundational we learned a lot about contacts  Sunshine contacts today is the highest rated   app in the app store for contact management and  we think it's the best uh obviously but it does   a great job taking your contacts duplicating  them updating them enriching them so we find   your contacts um in the White Pages we find them  on Facebook we find them on LinkedIn and we also   connect them with your email which is really key  because we can get a lot of information out of   signatures and out of emails that can really make  your address book that much more useful so we're   really proud of of sunshine contacts but as I  said for us that was a foundational portion of   what we wanted to build in that overall pursuit of  of that everyday utility around groups and events   and so what we launched last week shine is our  photo sharing for groups app it takes basically   a time and a place and lets people join an album  and share in Full Resolution their photos and it's   AI powered and that it understands and tries  to present photos that are sharew worthy for   automatic upload uh and it also does things like  reduces duplicates the same thing we were doing in   contacts we're doing in photos uh and it makes  it easier to share photos uh across people who   might not have each other's contacts it might be  a friend of a friend at an event that you're at   that brings me to events at the same time that we  launch shine uh the app we also launch shine on   the web which helps you with event organization  and so there you can set up your event we have   fast fluid communication around our VPS and we  also have breathtakingly gorgeous invitations   made by generative AI uh and so overall we think  that these two work really well together you can   use them separately of course but they basically  overall help you capture special moments when   you're together with friends right and so I'm  putting all these uh different areas that you're   working in together and I'm looking at okay so  it's photos contacts events um to me it seems like   it's almost breaking down what Facebook used to do  well and trying to build it back in in a different   maybe more of a utility versus a social network  what do you think about that thought you know as   I said for us we're very focused on what we think  people need every day what we think we Delight   them what we think will make their relationship  stronger and I do think that there were things and   are things that that Facebook does really well for  us we're not so much following that template as   opposed to just looking at people's everyday tasks  and overall what's getting in the way and I think   we can all agree today photo sharing is really  broken the number of times you might say oh let me   take that on my phone too or you know don't forget  to send me that photo uh when you're parting you   know at the end of of time together you know those  types of things and the odd that you get the photo   is probably pretty low um maybe for some people  it's higher but I think that is overall pretty low   and so we wanted to say look if a photo really  belongs to the time and a place and the people   who were there it should be easy especially among  friends and people who are connected even through   other people to seamlessly share those photos  and at the end you know right now ai is working   on things like Global facial recognition or for a  lot of us we spend a lot of our time pinching and   zooming and trying to make sure that we have the  the T the the shot that has the right expression   the eyes open all of those types of things and  those are all things that shine can do easily   and well right and you know I won't press the  issue too much but it does seem like you know   the one thing that really set me off on this path  was uh seeing birthdays there it's like well photo   sharing it actually used to be that you would  share that in your newsfeed birthdays you would   see it on the right rail like there really is  this uh opportunity for an unbundling of some of   the bigger you know social utilities that we've  had for a while and that's kind of where where   this might come in and then it sort of leads to my  next question to you which is that this is there's   there's a huge AI uh portion to what you're trying  to to do you I think you talked about it a little   bit whether it's like finding the right photo you  know figuring out who who to share D duplicating   like these are all something you need something  that's artificially intelligent to do I imagine   and it's interesting because if you're starting  these new consumer apps the other question is is   Big Tech just going to do what you do um and so  I I'd love to talk to you a little bit about that   the first big question you know having set that up  to you is do you think this AI moment is going to   make big Tech even stronger than it is or do you  think it will give startups like yours a chance to   like really fill in some of the gaps that they  haven't tended to for a while now that they've   gotten bigger and slower uh I think that overall  it's a great opportunity a great moment for uh for   startups I think that yes big Tech is providing  an amazing platform the AI models and the llms   that we have today enable us to do things that you  know we could only dream of just a few years ago   but I think that in terms of the fact that we can  access apis for these things we can apply them to   specific domains and specific problems I think it  really allows the uh a startup to build that much   more quickly build that much more intelligently  and the type of focus that comes with being in   a smaller company and much more strategically  focus on something um is a great opportunity for   startups so yes I do think this is a moment when  big Tech Will Thrive for obvious reasons related   to AI but I also think it's a great moment  to be in the startup World building something   that's really relentlessly focused on a specific  domain are there any other ways that AI work in   your products that I didn't touch on sure uh we  have a few uh so we uh use AI in shine on our   photos app to uh to do things like d duplicate to  overall uh understand um and and understand when   you might be doing something that's share worthy  either on a photo level or on an album level you   mentioned earlier the suggested albums it's one  of my favorite features the fact that the AI can   figure out where I tend to take interesting group  photos and where I don't and make those kinds of   suggestions to me is something that relies on  AI in our Events app we're using generative AI   so different type um to make beautiful invitations  and we do have gotten reviews for imitations they   are my view is they are the the best out there in  terms of really helping build a mood and a theme   and anticipation for your event uh and in things  like sunshine contacts we're deploying uh text   recognition and pattern recognition to overall do  extraction around signatures so we can figure out   which of your contacts is this person and we can  ultimately pull in their professional information   phone numbers uh and all of those pieces to really  make your contact that much more up to-date uh and   enriched and I think this gets to a really good  point which is that a lot of people say don't even   bother trying to compete in AI because it takes  so much compute and the models are so expensive   to train but there are applications it seems like  you're saying that you can build on top of these   very expensive models and actually do things that  are unique and differentiated without having to   spend let's say hundred million on trading your  own llm or you know text recognition model yes I   think that foundational AI has a huge barrier  to entry but I think applied AI taking these   models and applying them in a specific space and  a specific way uh is a really terrific opportunity   right now and I also think that the fact that  you that there's lots of different types of AI   being developed by big Tech is is helpful and  what's nice is I personally don't necessarily   think that the winner in llms will necessarily be  the winner in visual creation and so as a startup   the fact that you can pick whichever model or  whichever offering and API you feel fits your   needs best is great where in some cases the big  tech companies are going to end up using just   their own models and not necessarily being able  to use um what they see as as best of Industry   I think overall could be limiting for them  and so I like the fact that we're able to to   shop different models and ultimately find the one  that fits our needs best right and so you've been   uh within Google um there's this like perspective  out there that like a second the second like some   startup does something right Google or Facebook  or you know you name it we'll copy it and or yeah   we'll copy it and bake it into their products  so like Google obviously does photo sharing   with Google photos contact management I mean like  as you open up sunshine contacts you're like the   first two things that you're plugging into are  email and Google contacts um is there something   that having been inside the company that gives  you confidence that they just aren't able to or   won't end up taking the features that you've built  and then baking them into their own apps uh I mean   I think there's always a concern that you could  have someone who fast follows or copies something   that you're successful in but I think that the  type of focus that a startup can bring is really   valuable um being really relentlessly focused  on that that's how of course Google got it start   being really relentlessly focused on search even  Gmail that launched 20 years ago uh this week like   ultimately was really it was a search-based lens  on email which it turns out is really useful and   and people hadn't thought of email that way uh in  the past but taking that lens where you have a lot   of deep learnings and insights about your users  and applying that to a problem I think ultimately   is how you stay ahead uh even if you have a much  larger company competing with you right and so you   know looking at this type of startup um if someone  didn't know the context here they would be like   oh this is like a pretty like pretty easy to see  the path that this startup takes off and then gets   acquired within Google um is this are you going  to stay the course alone or if you know let's say   suar calls up and says we want to acquire this and  come in and run some of our consumer products is   that something you're open to uh you know for me  this adventure obviously what I'm mostly focused   on is impact I want to have a large group of users  a large user base that's using the products and   finding value in it every day and I think if  we're successful in that there's all kinds of   opportunities but for me what really intrigued me  and and brought me to being an entrepreneur was   the act of building a company not necessarily be  building a feature um or building a team I really   love the design problem of working on a company as  a whole right having a product a business model A   Team a culture that all works together to build  something that can provide a lot of value and   stay on the test of time so our hope would be to  be able to continue independently um I've learned   in business you should never say never uh but our  goal is to really build and design something that   has that type of strength okay so let's talk a  little bit about some of these models that you   may or may not be building on top of um beginning  with opening AI uh what's your view of the state   of open AI right now obviously there's been some  turbulence um but it seems like that's potentially   behind it um but the technology thing really  becomes interesting now because you have this   gp4 model that's out there they might be on their  way to releasing GPT 5 sometime this year but the   competition's really good so what would you uh say  is the state of the company right now uh I think   that open AI at least in my view at the moment  has the lead both in text generation uh chat   gbt as well as with Dolly uh but obviously it's a  fiercely competitive space and I think that those   um those things can be won and lost quickly  and there's a lot of really able competitors   obviously I've been close to Google and have a  real fondness for it but I think in terms of the   stable of talent they have as well as the type of  data they have to run on uh I think that you know   you can't count them out yeah and so I've heard  you talk a little bit about which model will win   and you did draw a parallel between what's going  on with AI Bots now or AI models and search and   I I was like kind of surprised to hear you talk  about search how you talked about how search was   effectively commoditized but every now and again  there would be one answer that Google might give   that was better than the others and that helped  build Google's like long-term trust and right now   we're in this moment where these models these AI  models are on their way to commoditization so I'm   curious like what you think will enable these  models to differentiate themselves is it that   better answer every 30 tries or something or is it  something else I think that that brings me back to   the first question you asked in the podcast around  the stickiness of consumer apps I think that one   of the things we learned as we built Google and  it grew is that yes there was a lot there was   kind of aead of queries the queries that people  do all the time and it didn't matter what search   engine you used for those they were all pretty  much the same it's the long tale of queries deep   research queries queries that people had never  done before where Google's flexibility and depth   and comprehensiveness and speed really set us  apart we you get much better answers there that   said you know when we saw it like the difference  between us and even the second best search engine   was sometimes pretty narrow 3% 5% as you said at  which point in time you're saying well look you're   really only getting a better answer with Google  once out of every one out of every 20 tries or   one out of every 30 tries and two things we saw  one once you become part of someone's routine   the odds they keep turning to you as their search  engine is really high so as I said consumer apps   are stickier Than People realize the other  is that people are so grateful when they get   a novel insightful answer or result that they it  builds a huge amount of Allegiance the fact that   you can just really nail someone's query you know  one in 30 times one in 20 times that stands out in   their mind Google brought them something that no  one else was able to bring them and the type of   Allegiance and loyalty that builds among consumers  and users is is really quite profound and I think   in many ways underestimated and I think we're  going to see the same thing happen uh in some   of these chat interfaces if you start to realize  wait I just like the types of answers I get better   here I get better insights I get answers that  speak to me more that you know Express themselves   more in language that I can use if I'm asking the  model to write something for me things like that   I think that those are you know those can be quite  profound I noticed that even in in Gmail you know   we'll do the autoc compose and uh I was talking  with um a friend of mine and we were talking   about the fact that like we would never write yeah  in an email you know yeah comma as an answer but   it frequently composes that and you're like look  it's little things like that where if over time   the time savings and just knowing you well enough  to know that you would always write yes comma as   opposed to yeah comma those types of little things  make a big difference in terms of how at home you   feel with the technology how much you feel like  you can rely on the technology the type of Time   Savings it gives you how well it understands  you and so sometimes it's those little things   around the edges the 3% of queries where you're  much better the little things that you say well   look I might speak that way but I would never  write that way um having technology that really   understands that and brings that to bear ultim  Ely can make the difference especially in a very   competitive space like this yeah and those Gmail  Auto uh replies or Auto auto um complet they're   unfailingly polite I feel like they've taught  me to become a more polite email emailer which I   appreciate um and maybe it's boring fruit because  here we are talking after a cold email so thank   you Gmail on that front um another thing that that  you brought up which is uh a way that these Bots   can differentiate themselves is personality and  it does seem like all these Bots right now have   the same personality it's I don't know it's kind  of boring they're all pretty boring they're very   helpful but they're they're not like someone  you're like someone I'm already anthropomorph   anthropomorphizing these things but you know  they're they're not someone you're excited to   talk to you're like oh okay let's see if this  is useful like the one that's taken a shot at   doing a personality is grock from Elon Musk and  it's pretty cringe so um talk a little bit about   that I'm curious to hear your thoughts on like is  the lager here just going to open up and try to   make a more personable bot or um kind of like a  psychobot that doesn't have any guard rails like   I'm personally I maybe I'm alone but I'd love to  have one that like we'll just talk about anything   with you and use this intelligence that it has  baked in to like really do some of the wacky stuff   it did for instance when Kevin ruse was talking  with Sydney and the Sydney B tried to break up   his marriage mm um you know I think that it's  interesting in the early days of Google I talked   to a Hollywood producer uh who was doing some some  side collaboration with Google and he felt really   strongly that search engines were going to have  to develop a personality that people were going   to say oh I'm choosing between Google or Yahoo or  you know Microsoft um and that there's going to   have to be flavors the same way there is on like  CBS ABC NBC right in terms of like what shows   they would carry and you know there's something  about what he said that made sense to me but in   my view it didn't play out that way at all and I  think it's because you know for you when you're   you know a search engine is fundamentally almost  like a teacher right it's bringing you information   you need to trust it needs to have a personality  that has integrity that's trustworthy but a lot   of times you don't necessarily want it to be  super personality Rich you really want it to   be efficient and and pretty much to the point  and I think that there the fact that it was   somewhat you know Google in his presentation  did sort of Fade Into the background right it   might be something that you was know more bland  than a Hollywood producer might have actually in   envisioned was actually helpful and I also think  that put the focus on the quality of the answers   we were providing I think there's a couple of  things that are going to happen in the AI space   if I had to guess um I think that we will will see  that when you're doing work and really conversing   one-on-one with the uh with the AI I think you're  ultimately going to want to have low personality   not necessarily objectionable personality you  want to feel understood but you don't want that   necessarily to get in the way and be distracting  because it overall it makes you less efficient   I think if you're asking AI to write on your  behalf is going to become very important that   it understands how you like to express yourself  it'll you know if if it does it will result in   fewer edits um and a better you know first draft  of a product things like that and so I think that   that you'll see a few different places in terms  of how the AI is deployed by different people and   it may be that they're one and the same that the  chat bot you're conversing with to teach yourself   is the same as the chatbot you're using to write  as it is today uh and that there's one that kind   of has the right type of of interface and the way  right way of expressing that's very comfortable in   both regards but my guess is it's that latter  task where you're asking the AI to act more   like an agent on your behalf really representing  you uh I think it's going to be really important   for people that in that world that they have a  they are able to have that a presence that isn't   cringe that feels very comfortable to them and  so I think they are the personality piece would   be more important and I definitely want to talk  about agents as well as Google uh you were the   person that hired Sundar Pai so why don't we do  that right after the break and we're back here on   big technology podcast with Marissa Meer uh CEO  of sunshine uh Marissa let's just talk quickly   about Google what what do you think the state of  Google is because I mean I guess this every time   we talk about the company it needs this preface  it seems like it's in a weird position with AI uh   it's business model of course like doesn't really  want us to run to these bods so quickly but then   again on the stock market uh we're F Monday and  of this week and just hit all-time highs today   so it's an interesting position for Google to be  in uh I think that this is an interesting moment   for Google uh I personally am very bullish on  the company they have an amazing team they have   incredible Talent particularly in the AI space and  the data they have in Gmail in order to understand   who you are what you like who you communicate how  you communicate you know if I had to say you know   look I trust one company to take this data and  really be able to make sense of it and understand   how to deploy it um to do things efficiently for  me my money would be on Google because there's   just so much of that that's in in email um and so  many other things that Google has even things from   like Maps navigations where you go how you get  there all of those types of things you know they   have so much data both on each of us all of us  personally but also collectively that I think that   there's a real opportunity that we're going to see  major breakthroughs and some of the best in class   uh work being done by Google at the same time they  have a huge business and there's just no question   in my mind that the current search interface right  typing something into the box and getting ads back   is going to be disrupted and that transition is  going to be very tricky just given the overall   size of the business that's can Embrace I think  if they can Embrace that change and you know at   the end of my time at Google we were working on  something that we called contextual search the   idea that a query should be more than just the  words it should be you know it should be your   whole present state right you know who you are  where you are the conversation you just had we   have this notion it's kind of counterintuitive  think about like what if you were the query what   if you could feed not just your question but all  of you into the search box um I think that we're   going to see something like that and I think  it does need an interface breakthrough today we   don't have an interface that works well enough  in that regard I think the chat box Bots that   sometimes are are too chatty I think the search  interface is too limited and I think there will   be an interface breakthrough that allows you the  search engine to gather either through things like   email or or history um or other inputs basically  gather more of a contextual picture for you to be   able to provide even better results but I think  it's where we start to see the power of llms meet   personal information I think that's ultimately  um that personal information and context that's   ultimately where we're going to see a real  breakout in terms of how search advances and   as I said that takes an both an interface and an  input mechanism Improvement um but I think it's   clear that that's where it's going and it will be  disruptive to the Google business model that said   I still am bullish that they can do handle the  transition well uh and and come out a winner in   the space that's fascinating I hadn't thought  that like all of our emailing and Gmail might   be eventually used to train a more personalized  bot for us or more personalized agent for us but   it makes a lot of sense anecdotally we did a a  fun thing at Yahoo we wanted to look at people's   we looked at the receipts that were coming into  people's emails and the funny thing was we could   tell and I this didn't totally make sense to me  but I guess it does make sense in retrospect we   could tell how based on where people were buying  socks where it was particularly rainy I've never   had this thought pattern but I think apparently  when it rains people start to think a lot about   their feet getting wet and they tend to buy socks  but you could actually T you could actually tie   together Yahoo weather so obviously we had the  weather patterns with when people when and where   people bought socks and so there were lots of  strange correlations like that when especially   when you look at a large body of data Yahoo male  um Google Mail where you can find all kinds of   fascinating correlations that really Point more  to context being a big piece context and personal   information being a big piece of what it is people  need and what they need to know can you talk us   through a little bit about how Google thinks  about how it will make product changes in this   moment because from the people I speak with on the  inside of that company and there are a lot of them   it seems like Google's really going to weigh like  is this product change going to even cause like a   1% decrease in search advertising and therefore  we won't do it is that really the way that this   company thinks about products and if it's the  case how do you expect them then to go to um   that that shift and format uh interface uh it's  going to take a pretty bold decision right just   like a very bold gutsy product choice that seems  like it's the only way uh I think that there is   a tension uh obviously when you have something  as big and valuable as the Google sech business   which I ran for around a decade there is this  tendency towards incrementalism right you want   to just try and make things you have a pretty good  product and a pretty good business already and you   just want to try and keep chipping away it and  making it better and better there is that kind of   progress that comes but I think there's also uh a  boldness inside of Google uh and I think it's been   there since the core of saying wait what if we did  email what if we do maps right what if we go into   driverless cars and I think this is one of these  moments where they're going to have to be bold uh   and interestingly when I left Google for Yahoo my  last conversation as a formal Google employee was   with Sergey himself and um uh I asked Sergey if  he had any advice for me and he gave me a lot of   different advice and um we had worked together  for a long time and and uh uh and as I went to   leave um it was time for me to go I had my hand on  the door handle and I remember Sergey stopped and   said Mera wait don't forget to be bold MH he's  like you know if you just continuing to try and   make you know Yahoo incrementally better isn't  going to get you where you wanted to go he just   said he just said don't forget to be bold and left  it at that but that was it was huge for me because   I do think it it reminded me that you know in our  attempt to make Yahoo great again we were going to   have to make bold decisions and I do think there's  at the heart of Google in terms of the way the   founders have set up the company the culture there  is this desired for bold unbridled Innovation and   I think this is a moment when the company has to  lean into that and you can't be Reckless about it   you obviously have users employees shareholders a  lot of of stakeholders that need to be considered   but I don't think that that can get in the way  of the you know overarching narrative that AI   is coming is going to change search in a really  profound way and Google still is in my view the   company that's best position to be the leader in  search at the end of this wave as it is right now   um but it's going to mean leaning back into that  that original uh creative impulse but I do wonder   about the boldness thing because you know in the  notes that I put down before this conversation I   wrote you know you had just tweeted about  Gmail's 20th anniversary you mentioned it   here and I wrote a not could that happen today  like where is that today within Google we don't   see the same experimental Pro projects coming  out of the company that we used to at least as   far as I can tell so what makes you think the  boldness is still there I have to say even when   we started gmail which Gmail launched in 2004 but  started in 2002 took a lot of effort I remember   when they first said like we're going to build  an email client we were all like no like we're   building a search engine like what part of email  is interesting it was actually hard to get off the   ground and it had to start kind of a Skunk Works  project that was kicked off uh by Larry uh and   you know over time we started to see the value in  it and we started to see what search and some of   the profoundness of the size of storage and the  our cost of storage could really bring to bear   on email and that was all very exciting uh and  so but in the beginning it took a it took a lot   of energy right to to start something new even in  a little company um you know breaking out of that   status quo takes a lot of energy um and it takes  courage but I think Google has both that energy   and that courage and I think as I said this this  space is something that they've been been working   in and preparing and this moment is something one  they've been preparing for for a very long time uh   you know everything from a lot of the underlying  advances lot of the underlying insights um there   was a great article last week uh the Transformers  talking about the eight people whove really shaped   modern AI all of whom worked at at Google uh you  know this has been been building for for for quite   a long time and I think that they clearly have  the team and the data to do it and I do think they   have the impulse to really Embrace this change and  and be the powerful player within it so you you   hired Sundar as a product manager within Google  I I can't take credit for that Susan wsky hired   Sundar she was the head of ads I was the head of  search uh and product management you put you put   him work on his first project he started we kind  of collectively hired search uh product managers   across uh the product management organization and  then when they came assigned them so so Susan um   sourced him we hired him through the product  management uh hiring Committee of which I ran   and then when he came in we realized that we had a  real need in the client space so Sundar uh one of   started off and realized that we didn't have a PM  uh product manager on Google Toolbar and Google to   toolbar had like 200 million users or something  like embarrassingly large like that and I said   well you know I told you there was more work than  people here so there's no shortage of things to   do so if you'd like to be the PM on toolbar you  can and so he became our pm on toolbar and then   ultimately we realized we didn't just want a  toolbar inside of a browser we wanted actually   the browser the browser launched to Great Fanfare  and and um was really well received and then we   realized we could actually use the browser as an  operating system Paradigm so it became Chrome OS   uh and things you know took off from there but um  right soon is as an extraordinary individual um I   think turned up fully formed yeah I think the  toolbar story is one of the coolest stories in   Google history uh just a a product that needed to  be there to protect the company against the real   anti-competitive stuff that Microsoft was doing I  mean Microsoft eventually made its browser worse   so the web would go slower it's like almost you  think Google's in the same position now right   but it's not doing the same things but it made  the browser worse so web would go slower to hold   off Google which challenged everything within  Microsoft from office to the operating system   but that we could talk about that for hours uh  one question about Sundar for you is you know   knowing Sundar back then um are there things that  he would do or is there uh something that you saw   in him then that make you believe that he's the  right leader for now uh Sundar uh is incredible   in a number of ways one he's incredibly  intelligent he's able to synthesize many   different viewpoints extremely quickly and he's  also a very independent thinker so he's able to   take in all those viewpoints be it from users from  Executives Etc and synthesize them in a way that   also brings his own lens and his own judgment  to Bear uh and so I do think that he and he's   not afraid of betting big right it was I remember  uh I remember getting yelled at in the first time   we went in to propose that we should do a browser  um because obviously at the time Eric Schmidt one   of my longtime mentors who I just love had been  deeply embedded in the wars with Microsoft and   he was like you know what we don't need to do  we don't need to build a browser and we were   like actually we really want to build a browser  and here's how we think we can have a browser   that's differentiate and here's how we think it's  going to be better and yes it's going to be a lot   of work and there's a of technical decisions that  we have to get right in order to actually compete   in this space um but you know it was a really  fraught debate inside the company to actually   uh decide to pursue and build Chrome uh and it  was controversial and Sundar wasn't afraid of   that um and there were certainly people around him  that supported him and guided him um but you know   overall it was really he wasn't afraid to take the  charge and say look we need to do something that's   com counterintuitive and controversial and place  this big bet and I think it's really going to be   foundational in the long run for the company and  he was absolutely right uh let me ask you a couple   Yahoo questions before we wrap uh if if I can our  audience is kind of obsessed with Yahoo um they're   fun like that um we're talking I mean just in the  context of consumer products um what do you think   the lesson is to be learned from Tumblr uh and why  do you think that it ended up declining the way   that it did uh I think that the ultimate lesson  to learn um from Tumblr is there are times when   a company should be really you know held aside  right I I you you say you you know Google did   that really successfully with YouTube um Facebook  did that really successfully with Instagram right   there's times when something's just a rocket ship  and it needs to be kept separately separate from   the mothership because the mothership might  just love it to death that was really what we   were worried about it YouTube and I know from  Instagram they were had similar concerns there   I think that for Tumblr you know we felt that it  was that kind of rocket ship and there were a lot   of great attributes at the same time I think that  it could have used a little bit more support from   Yahoo in terms of overall what's working some  of the technical infrastructure and decisions   certainly some of the marketing and positioning  of the platform and also just in terms of the   becoming a you know a platform that was hospitable  to ads and really had the type of viewership and   followership um that would monetize well with  ads and so I think that if I had it to do over   again I still would do the Tumblr acquisition but  I would have integrated it more and I would have   loaned more Talent from Yahoo Yahoo to Tumblr  and it may have ultimately changed Tumblr in   terms of what it uh what it became in the long  run but I think it would have ultimately been   been more successful full yeah you also you  acquired suly um which which was kind of way   ahead of its time it summarized the web use AI  to do this stuff I've been thinking about it   a lot when it comes to generative stuff because  a lot of companies are trying to do that now um   knowing that this is the direction and with that  context do you think there's a bright future for   the web I mean there's there are browsers now that  you'll go to the web page and it just instead of   having you read the article will summarize uh  it for you so I guess I'm curious if you think   that this is the future and if it is what it means  for the web uh I think that summarization is going   to be really important that's why I bought suly I  think It ultimately makes you a lot more efficient   in your daily routines it helps you consume a lot  more content and also ultimately understand where   do I want just a surface level summary and where  do I want to do a deep dive uh so I think that   summarization technology is incredibly helpful and  I also think we you know one of the big reasons we   bought it was to apply it on video because there's  definitely time s where you can't watch a video   um or you know you can't listen to a podcast  but if you can basically take all that content   and summarize it down uh is ultimately really  useful uh I do think that one of the concerns I   have about the web in the long run is with machine  generated content I'm not confident that the web   improves maybe it stays the same maybe it declines  slightly but for a lot of these Technologies we   need the web and we need this base of knowledge  and data that everything's learning off of to   continue to get better and I do think that's  going to be one of the challenges in the future   as we continue to train models and Advance these  Technologies is how do we make sure that we're   training on things where the quality is actually  monotonically increasing as opposed to staying   the same or decreasing okay yeah and not no worry  about like the fact that I almost feel like it's   this cycle where like you have ai generated  stuff it gets fed into these chat Bots people   don't visit websites anymore websites go away and  you just end up in this death spiral is that am I   overly concerned about that or even legitimate I  think that there is I think that originality and   newness is is a is a real thing and I think  that there's a lot that people can bring to   bear I think that some of what you're saying will  happen but I I don't think it's going to overall   be the the overarching trend okay great and then  just to sum up first-time founder um after holding   some very interesting positions over time um you  don't really have to work anymore so I'm curious   and being a Founder is a very tough job uh what  continues to drive you and how's the experience   been so far um it's been terrific as I said I  love working on design problems um and you know   building a company is a tremendous design problem  and I have to say launching products last week it   was so fun I love the exhilaration of bringing  something new in the market you know it's never   going to be perfect the first time out you're  always going to get a lot of feedback and when   you get that feedback you have to decide is that  defeating feedback or does that just make you want   to make your product even better uh and so for me  I love building things and I love the team that I   get to do it with uh and I'm just really excited  about what types of things we can build in the   future especially now that we have feedback from  real users in terms of what they like and what   works for them is there anything you're to show  the tech world or show yourself like starting from   zero as opposed to trying to incubate something  within a larger company I mean you started Google   when it was pretty early but I'm curious if  there's any of that that comes into play I think   that you know my interaction with entrepreneurs  has defined my whole career obviously from Larry   and Sergey and then Pho and yang who I got to work  with at at Yahoo Pho more closely than Yang but   both of them and then you over the course of my  career I've acquired somewhere on the order of 80   companies around 50 at Yahoo around 30 at Google  and I've gotten to work with some of the best and   um you know everyone from like Tim and Nina zat  to David KP from Tumblr there's so many different   personalities that come and I started to realize  that you know so much of my career was you know   based around Milestones of different Founders and  their traits and their insights that you know that   that that respect for entrepreneurs was something  that really carried with me I'm very grateful for   all those experiences and it was something that I  did want to have for myself cool stuff all right   so if people want to download the apps where do  they go uh you can go to sunshine.com uh or you   can go to bit.ly shine by Sunshine uh and download  it on the App Store and it'll be coming to Android   soon all right well as one of the newest users  I'm definitely looking forward to uh to use them   and and uh hopefully there's more that come  because uh we don't want consumer to be said   and done for so I appreciate you taking this s  gear totally thank you so much thank you Marissa   thank you everybody for listening we'll be back  on Friday Rona and Roy is returning we're going   to talk about the week's news we also have  a special guest Zeke Fox who's here to talk   uh with us all about the state of crypto after  the spbf sentencing and plenty more so tune on   tune in on Friday and thanks again for listening  we'll see you next time on big technology podcast

2024-04-21

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