Trust in Technology, Behavior Change and Clinician Burnout | Harmonizing Digital and Human Elements

Trust in Technology, Behavior Change and Clinician Burnout | Harmonizing Digital and Human Elements

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(upbeat music) - Thanks everyone and welcome to our panel discussion. I feel like the last panel discussion was actually a really good foundation for this one and very dear to my heart as I'm VP of UX Consulting and all about harmonizing the digital technology with the human touch. So that's the topic of our panel discussion today, and we're gonna start by just, I'm gonna ask each of our panelists to introduce themselves, so you can get an idea of the different perspectives they're bringing to this conversation. So I'll start with you Josh. - Great, I'm Josh Hix, Co-Founder, CEO of Season Health. Did a bit of healthcare a while ago, enough to probably scare me off and went and started a consumer business, which was Plated food business.

Through international scale, sold to Albertsons, learned more about grocery and supply chain and nutrition and everything that I thought I would ever know. And season is really the third act and putting the two together. So we're a, food as medicine platform. We help folks get healthier through food. I mean that's really the simplest version.

- Awesome. Alright, good afternoon or good morning. Is it morning? I think it's morning. - [Lorraine] Still morning. - Yeah, Craig Klopatek.

I'm the CIO for CenterWell. The CenterWell division at Humana. And I've been in healthcare and technology my entire life, apart from a little stint that I had on the trading floor at Lehman Brothers way back when, and I'm like, that wasn't for me. So I went to healthcare and technology, part of that time building product for the market on the software side and a large portion of that time working for providers and payers. So this topic is really interesting to me in the lens.

The lens that I bring is I'm working in a provider organization as a part of a large payer. Most people think of Humana with our 17 million members across the country with Medicare Advantage and PDP and Medicaid and Specialty benefits. But a lot of people don't really know a lot about CenterWell that we branded in 2021, and CenterWell is a division that brings the fourth largest pharmacy benefit manager in the country together with a primary care delivery system where we've got close to 290 independent senior focused primary care clinics throughout the country. And then we've got the home space now where we've got 360 home branches throughout the country and close to 10,000 clinicians. Many of them are nurses and physical therapists.

I look forward to the discussion. - Awesome, great segue to Anika. - Hi, I'm Anika Gardenhire. I think the perspective I always bring is I consider myself a nurse first, and I've had the great fortune of being in healthcare technology. I jokingly say my entry point was by way of being the biggest complainer.

And at some point somebody said, if you think you can do better... we're still working on it. I started my career in nursing, was raised healthcare ops, was a manager of director of critical care services service line director, and then went into clinical informatics and absolutely love technology and data, and hope that it's going to solve all of the world's problems and still hold out hope for that. Most recently I was at Centene and am now at Ardent, or I'm super excited to be the Chief Digital Information Officer and really work on digital technologies, and how we pilot and scale, and work to drive improvements in care delivery and care and wellness. So thanks for having me.

- Great, well thank you because I felt it was very important to identify the different perspectives you guys are bringing to this. And I know we've seen the pendulum shift over the years, and particularly recently with COVID. Going from manual processes, mostly in person interactions, whether you're a provider or payer, to almost to an extreme, especially with gen AI where it's digital first or digital only in some cases. So how, I'd like to get individual perspectives on how you approach when to use technology for a digital touchpoint versus introducing the human into the process.

Why don't we go ahead, start with you Josh. - Sure. You know, I think the fairly obvious thing is we try to use technology where it's better for the computer to do whatever the task is. Things that are repetitive, things where the empathy and emotion have no role to play. I think that's easier said than done, but we're trying to automate the parts of the journey that neither the patient nor the clinician want to do. So, I think that that that approach is well entrenched in the consumer world.

I think that it's still making its way into healthcare. It's a much more complicated environment, with the regulatory environment as well as the sort of, you know, multi-stakeholder nature of everything. But I think that, you know, as you achieve more and more of that, it becomes a much more seamless experience. And, you know, people stop thinking about the technology. It just fades into the background. - Craig? - Yeah, I mean, it's a great question.

We were talking a little bit earlier just about digital tech and even Dinesh and Frank and Katie and the previous panel were talking about the explosion of tech that happened during the pandemic and then even kind of since then. So I always call it, we're swimming in a sea of hype. When you look at the technologies and then the question is, Hey, what do you do with this? If you look at some of the trends that are out there, the trends are crazy. Like 15% of healthcare, what was it like 15? I'll have to look it up.

This is why I bring the iPad. (all laughing) So, 'cause I... yeah, 15% of claims represent telehealth visits, and that was a 38 times pre pandemic investment. We were talking about investment in the number of startups that are out there. $45 billion just in the last two years alone, compared to two to $8 billion over the proceeding eight years.

And then there's a lot of benefit too. So $250 billion of US healthcare spend has the potential to be virtualized. And then two to 5% of US healthcare spend has the opportunity for savings.

So when you look at, look at all of that, and you look at the sea of hype, the startups that are coming, like what do we do with that? And the question is, are we actually taking care of the human touch and the patient experience and the clinician experience at the end of the day? Well, in many cases we are, but in many cases we're not. So you look at clinician burnout. Clinician burnout right now is at an all time high, right? Attrition and turnover, especially in like the home care space, the post-acute space, is at an all time high. And we're not meeting the needs of the industry because we're looking at this sea of hive, and we're not actually approaching it in the right way. And a lot of times you think about the sea of hype, you've got innovation triggers, and then that trigger goes through the roof. Then you've got inflated expectations and what happens? Oftentimes, like they drop, people become disillusioned.

And then ultimately you get back to a point where you're beginning to add value, and you truly have impact, and you're truly reducing administrative burden, you're reducing friction, you're improving health outcomes. And that's where it really matters. So the question is how do you look at all of this, and how do you balance the technology avalanche that's coming our way with the appropriate technology for the right business and clinical use cases that we can solve and truly make a difference. And I just think we have a long way to go as an industry.

And I always say with tech, tech doesn't replace a clinician, should never replace a clinician. It augments what a clinician can do and it actually frees up and reduces the friction. So clinicians can do what they intended to do when they went to medical school. That's treat people, treat patients and make them better. - Well, and your stats are really interesting because there's all of this investment.

We have a plethora of different digital applications out there, and I actually didn't write down the percentage that fail, right? And they fail because of limited adoption or engagement over time. So clearly we're missing a need, so Anika, same question to you. How do you feel we should be approaching this in terms of balancing technology with the human touch? - Yeah, I'm probably gonna be like the kiss method person on the stage today, but I just think it's right.

Just start with listening, right? Just let people tell you. You know, when you think about mapping out a journey as individuals, every day we make choices, right? We make phone calls and there are times when we will go out of our way to solve our problem using the IVR, 'cause we hope to have to not get to a human. And there are other times when you need everything to fade away except for the person who's willing to hold your hand. And we know when those times are, as individuals, those are our choices and our preferences.

So I think you approach finding the balance of when to use technology and when to have the human touch by asking the people you are trying to reach and then complying with what they're telling you, right? And so if you map the journey and you say, Hey, do you want a person to have to come into your room in the middle of the night to take your vital signs? Or if I put this sensor on you to take your vital signs so you can sleep till the night, would that be your preference? Well, overwhelming we usually know the answer. But if you say, hey, when you are four centimeters dilated, would you like me to put a robot at the bottom of your bed, or have a nurse hold your hand and scream with you? We know the answer, right? And so I think what ends up happening is that, we overcomplicate the matter, quite frankly, when all we have to do typically is observe and ask. - I'm all for that. (all laughs) So, let's bring it back to one of your earlier points, Craig, about investment and different approaches. And you alluded to the fact that we're not successful. So how do we impact outcomes, right? And outcomes in terms of member experience, a consumer experience, and a patient experience.

- Yeah, let me give a really specific example and I'll tie into the patient experience. So I'd indicated earlier that we've got close to 10,000 clinicians in the home space. So in the home space, I've been in healthcare my entire career, but didn't know a lot about it when we went into the healthcare space a few years ago. And when you look at a start of care and when you look at OASIS documentation, a clinician can take two and a half to three hours to finish the start of care and to finish the documentation. And oftentimes they're in remote, disparate areas without connectivity with a tablet.

In front of a patient, this can be a barrier to a patient if you're not actually, you know, communicating with the patient and engaging in the right way. Then what often times happens is you go into the car, they pull out a keyboard, or more often than not, they go home at night and do pajama time or weekend time and they're filling out the documentation. So two and a half to three hours. So when you look at a journey and where it is that you're going, you say, hey, how can I actually influence that for the better? And we have to do better.

Electronic medical records in the home space. They're not the most efficient. They've come a long ways, they haven't caught up to acute care. And like we as an example, took the OASIS documentation and removed duplication and worked on the workflow, made 250 changes, five minutes of savings time in a two and a half to three hour OASIS start of care.

So you're like, okay, how can I do better? Well, Frank was up here earlier on the Surescript side, if I can take prescription information and I can feed it into the EMR so you don't have to go look for the prescriptions and you have it right there in front of you, you don't have to duplicate data entry. Hey, that's gonna matter with the integration that you have. Another example is, and these are all simple examples, is speech to text. In the acute care world, and even in primary care, like technology is done kind of a lot more than they have in the post-acute care world. So we deployed a speech to text capability recently, and we, truthfully, this was the most amazing day of a technologist's life.

We as we got a video from one of our clinicians, and it was a video of him with a baby on his shoulder, and it was a video of him walking through the woods, and it was a video of him walking through the park and taking the keyboard and throwing it out. And basically what he was saying is, speech to text alone and medical dictation specific to the home space could save 15 minutes. 15 minutes, you're still two and a half hours, five minutes for the other 15 minutes for this. But he said, "Hey look, I'm getting my life back."

And that's where you can truly have an impact. So if the clinician's satisfaction goes up and we speed up data entry, and we make it easier, we've only just started like the generative AI impact there. Then how much better can the patient experience be in that kind of a circumstance where you remove the barrier and you're doing what we intended to as a clinician.

- Amazing, now from a clinician perspective- - Yep. - Anika, you had alluded to potential positive outcomes for extender tech for caregivers. Can you talk to us a bit about that? - Absolutely. I mean, you know, Craig talked a little bit about the burnout for clinicians. And the reality is, is the number of clinicians who are entering the workforce versus those leaving the workforce, the amount of clinical injury to nurses and others, those are unsustainable long-term models, right? We have to have ways to extend clinicians to lessen the burden, to allow them to stay in the workforce longer, to allow them to carry a higher workload and quite frankly, to allow them to provide more personalized just in time care.

And so being able to look at technologies that really take the workload off of clinicians and the burden. So thinking about all of the virtual sitter technologies and those types of things, those are all of great interest, especially in the acute care setting. Thinking about technologies that are laser focused on the task, but non-skilled type items that clinicians, especially nurses walk into the room to do, take vital signs, those types of things. How many of those could be managed by, you know, a virtual extender clinician who is observing a multitude of patients, or really helping the entire unit function more efficiently and effectively? And so how do you think about wrapping a technology experience around this issue of burnout and carrying a broader workload? And that's one of the things that we're really working on trying to perfect quite frankly at Ardent because we know that we have to, and we want to, and we believe that we can have better clinical outcomes.

If we had continuous vital signs monitoring, versus every four hours a tech or clinician has to walk into a room and take your vital signs, we know that we have better predictive opportunities around diagnoses like sepsis or post-surgical issues, when a person comes out and goes to med-surg. And so really thinking about how do you do that but do it purposefully, right? Understanding that we are changing the care experience, we're changing the constitution of the care team, we're changing the patient interaction with that clinician. We're changing things like bedside report, and we're changing things that fundamentally in clinical practice have kept patients and clinicians safe. And so one of the things that I've always said as a clinician is that if you ask me to change my practice, you better know what you're doing and you better be right. So you don't get the benefit of being wrong and you don't get the benefit of practicing on anyone, right? And so that is the difference for me about being in healthcare.

And I really appreciate the fact that with the right amount of clinician input, and with the right amount of patient input, we actually could nail this, - Right, that description is a nice seamless, you know, integration of tech into the provider, or the clinician's workflow rather than forcing users to use the tech because it's there and it exists, right? - [Anika] Absolutely. - So you solving a meaningful problem so that you can optimize those human touch touchpoints versus, oh, we're gonna let technology take care of that, and I'll come back to you later. - Yeah, that for me was the entire benefit.

Like the goal here is to eliminate the noise, not add more noise, right? I gave the example earlier where I could remember as an ICU nurse when the bedside monitor, if you guys.. ICUs, went from like 12 data elements to like 26. And every clinician is like, what am I supposed to do with that? That's not helpful, right? So I got like 12 little boxes and beeps and numbers and now I got 26 little boxes and beeps and numbers right? To alert me to things that fundamentally the brain can't digest and act on. And I kept saying like, "I don't need more data, I need a suggestion, I need a sentence."

Right? And so really thinking about like what is the actual need, and how do you present that in a way that somebody can actually look at it, take action and improve care. - That was something that came up in our round table actually, the whole concept of a gen AI assistant. And it can apply obviously using tech as the assistant where, and you're using the human to perform those- - [Anika] Absolutely. - High capability tasks.

- Okay, so same question in terms of outcomes, but now let's talk food. - [Josh] Yeah. (all laugh) I feel like I'm gonna get myself in trouble with in here on the clinician side, but raise your hand if you've ever tried to change your own diet. If you're not raising your hand, you're on your phone and you just gave yourself away. (all laugh) Now raise your hand if you have ever been to a relative's thinking about Thanksgiving or whatever and they eat differently than you, and you find yourself just eating the food that's there.

And maybe you like it, maybe you don't, but it's there and it just happens. You're there for a few days, right? All I've just done is proven the obvious, which is we eat what's around us, we're all going to eat what's served for lunch today. We eat what's in our homes, in our neighborhoods. This is just social determinants.

It's nudge, it's blue zones, it goes by different names, but I think it's that simple. We eat what's around us. Here's the other challenge with that equation, in our experience, and this is the the clinician experience. I've yet to meet a dietician that feels like they have a great command of may more than maybe one or two cultures worth of food. They're not chefs.

And even when they are, they know one or two or three cultures. And then even when they know that what they don't know is what Craig's wife and kids like, or your mother-in-law or whoever else is eating in the household. And so how can you possibly change the environment in a way that works for everybody if you don't know all that stuff? And by the way, even when you do know that stuff, you're not reimbursed for meal planning or anything else.

So this is the problem we solve. The clinician does the nutrition part for us, it's primarily dieticians. We have a dietician for telehealth clinic.

Those dieticians do the nutrition part, patient should change the following, you know, macros, micros, et cetera for your diabetes, CKD, high risk pregnancy, whatever the diagnosis might be. And then let the software do the part that nobody wants to do anyway. Take into account the 15 different factors that are nutrition and consumer preferences and help them find food. By plugging into the existing food system out there. We'll plug into whatever grocery store you like, Walmart, Instacart, whatever it might be, into a bunch of prepared meal vendors. And simply make it impossible for you to do something that either your spouse is gonna be mad about 'cause they don't like it, or you had it five times last week or whatever.

And this is the consumer background in me, you know, speaking here, everybody wants help with meal planning. Like I promise you everybody does, even before you consider the sort of clinical limitations, you know, nutrition prescription. So this is our approach. I think it's finding a lot of success. Certainly from our perspective, outcomes have been great.

We're lowering A1Cs north of two points in 180 days. You know, and I think folks are generally finding it to be a very helpful, you know, AI experience in that we're just making that fade into the background. Show me a bunch of options, a virtual grocery store shelf, a virtual, you know, Uber Eats style experience for prepared meals that everything works. Everything works for my clinical needs but also for my family because that's in many ways the hardest part, and really just removes that, cognitive overhead. And as far as I can tell at least, and hopefully, they'll keep me honest, but all the dieticians that we work with love it. 'Cause they feel like they're actually, making an impact and they're not being asked to do something that they're not equipped to do anyway, which is, you know, build a dynamic meal plan for all the household that they're just not equipped to do.

- We're definitely still friends, Josh. (all laugh) - Well it's interesting because we did a research study and it was on dialysis patients and nephrologists. And one of the biggest pain point, and we observed, so we did rounds in the dialysis center. So they're there, they are sick, right? They're getting dialysis.

And one of the core interventions that the center was trying to provide was through a dietician. And she would physically hand a sheet, "Here's some ideas for healthy meals." And we witnessed on more than one occasion, you know, them handing in their food plans and saying, well, I ate fried chicken and I did this.

And I just don't find this accessible essentially is what the patient was saying. So obviously a perfect example of using technology to really zero in on what are they capable of purchasing, or going out to find and what will fit in within that, and then using human to support that process. So I think that's a really great example.

- I actually think one of the coolest things about sort of what Josh and team are doing, and what some of the digital technologies are doing is that, it's sort of providing license for us to start to admit to human limitations in healthcare. - [Lorraine] Yeah. - Right? Which is, I think one of the things historically and culturally, I don't know that we've done really well. Like, you know, I'm an ICU nurse, I practiced in, in CVRU and search trauma like heroics are my thing, right? You know, people don't die on my watch.

And like all of the things that sort of make you comfortable in that environment and comfortable caring for people in that way, don't actually allow for a lot of like uncertainty and minutes to human limitation, or openness to additional help and tooling. And that's what I think is the coolest thing. The reality is, is you don't overcome externally in the human body what people put into the human body. You don't. Food is medicine is not new.

We've always known that there are not things that we can do externally to overcome what people put into their bodies every day. We can't do it. And so being able to just sort of say, yep, that's point of fact. So we should figure out how to maneuver better and differently in that, and then lean into these digital tools to help us do that better. Man, that's just so logical.

- [Lorraine] Agreed, yep. So- - Yeah, I'm feeling pretty safe between Anika and Josh. (all laugh) Right? I think I need to stay close to both of you. (all laugh) - So obviously blending technology with human elements, let's talk about the first touch experience.

- [Craig] Yeah. - Especially when it's not human, but the first touch experience can erode a relationship whether it's human or digital, right? So, and again, another theme that came up in our round table in our design round table was, know me. So when I have that first interaction with you, show some knowledge about who I am and where I'm at in the process. So Anika I'll start with you first. - [Anika] Yeah.

- What are your thoughts on especially, you know, being in the trenches? - I think this is such an important topic, right? I mean, and I think it's important because of trust, right? And the importance of ensuring that we maintain trust between individuals and their clinical providers, and a appropriate knowledge bases and broader populations, right? And in institutions that produce large bodies of knowledge. And I think in healthcare we've seen the impact of the erosion of trust in everything from sort of, you know, vaccination trends to the way that people provide healthcare to the individual showing up at their doctor visit who has googled everything and happened to hit every single misinformation site possible, right? You know, I just think that when we think about those everyday interactions compounded sort of societally. I mean the impact and sort of consequences of trust erosion are so important.

And I think we're not talking about them enough, especially as we progress digitally in healthcare and how do we retain, and quite frankly hold sacred that relationship, between a trusted source of information, whether you want that to be digital or human, and the person who needs that information, and needs it at the right time and accurate. And so I think we have to be really purposeful in how we do that. And typically that first interaction forms the foundation for whether or not I'm going to trust you. And so I remember a couple years ago, the first time when in the UK in the NHS, nursing was not the number one trusted profession. I don't live in the UK and I took it very personally. (all laugh) Like I think there are are things that we have to make sure that as we're designing technology, and we're designing these experiences and we're, you know, putting out the 11,000 plus digital tools, and the multiple billions of dollars into digital technologies.

Like I think the cautionary tale that we might want to make sure that we're all cognizant of is, how are we retaining trust? How are we explaining what we're doing and how are we being really honest about what we're actually capable of accomplishing, and what we're not? - So Craig, as a provider in a payer organization, these are key questions. What's your organization or how is your organization approaching this? - Yeah, my little bit of a personal story, my mother and father-in-law lived in Southern California, Huntington Beach in Northern California for a long time and just moved in their eighties to Nashville. Multiple chronic conditions in one case and basically you take a whole life of healthcare ecosystems that they'd become familiar with in Northern, and Southern California and then you moved to Nashville and this area.

Great, fantastic healthcare place obviously, we're in the right place. Tremendous technology, but really super scary, for mid 80-year-old individuals to come to this area and engage. And you think about it, hey, like they spent a lot of time on the phone with me. Hey, what are all the different Medicare advantage plans that are currently out there? What's the difference between this and that? Finding a health plan and then it's, hey, once I find a health plan, how do I find a provider? Well, if you guys looked at the industry in the Nashville area over the last 12 to 24 month period of time, there's been a little bit of turbulence in terms of negotiation and what's been happening there. So they finally find clinicians mostly in the Vandy network, and then they have to transfer their prescriptions, find a primary care provider, and find the other services that they have.

So when you think about these and you think about that journey, and starting with the patient in mind and the technology that you need to apply, how do you apply technology in a way to a journey, starting with a patient where you're actually reducing that friction? And you said something earlier, you said, "Hey, know me." - [Lorraine] Right? - Well, we have a lot of information to know somebody, and we don't use it. (Craig chuckles) Show me your care and then make it easy, is the way you look at it. So patient, registration is a great example and we're a complicated ecosystem, and there are a lot of players in the market who also, if you look at the industry, have collected assets and have acquired a lot of different types of companies, and we all as an industry need to do better and integrating those. So if my mother and father-in-law are Humana MA members, and they've already filled out all their paperwork and they've gone through all that they need to, and now they need to transfer their prescriptions and now they need to find a primary care doc.

What we're doing a lot of is saying, I have a lot of this information, so I already have the information and somebody goes to register. Why isn't everything pre-populated, so I can validate when I go into the doctor's office, why do I have to fill out additional forms? I had that happen to me just in the last month where I filled out like in triplicate throughout the Nashville marketplace. And that was incredibly frustrating, especially for a technologist, but to the senior population by the way, who are fairly tech savvy like people think that seniors are not tech savvy but they are, the problem is we're not designing our approaches and our ecosystem in an integrated way that's catered to their needs specifically. And that's a problem. So at Humana we're looking at how do you know me and use the data that you have, and break down the silos in that data, and use that data to reduce that friction, going back to like the clinician experience so that clinicians can do what they went into practice to do and the patients can get the care they need to.

- Right, ad so not just in terms of first touch, I assume at different interactions or different touch points. - Yeah, absolutely. Yeah so that was the first touch..

And my example, Humana MA member leveraging our pharmacy, going to see a primary care doc, and potentially for those with chronic conditions, engaging with the home system, right? Dealing with food challenges, right? Dealing with community care. There's so many different things that not only within our Humana center wall ecosystem, but more importantly outside of the walls of what we do, and how we connect as an industry truly matters. And we can't do it in isolation without actually partnering with the people who are in this room. - Right, I think that's a really important point. And so let's take the example maybe of digital front doors. Everybody has been or is, or starting to work on digital front doors.

And I think there was this notion as people started to work on the digital front door, it was funnel everybody through this digital door. And at least for myself and I think members of my team, and as we started to take a take a step back, the idea needed to be tweaked a little bit. It wasn't really funnel everybody through this digital front door, it was actually more create no wrong door, such that my preference is always right, right? So if I want to show up in one of your brick and mortar buildings, and have my experience be seamless and have, you know me and have that information at the clinician's fingertips, that's my preference. If I want to funnel through your website, and have you know me, and have a seamless experience, that's my preference. The big thing about a digital front door is don't send me off a digital cliff in the experience, where you've made the web experience glorious.

And then I go and talk to your humans and they're like, huh? - [Lorraine] Exactly. - Right, I think there was so much focus sort of one way, for one set of population, let me get all of the digitally native savvy people, you know, adopting these really cool tools. But no make the situation such that for everyone that we have to serve, there is no wrong door to enter.

That to me is the promise of digital and figuring out first touch. - [Craig] Love it. - Well, and just planning for that omnichannel experience and including if I prefer to talk to somebody. - [Anika] Absolutely. - Right? And making sure that they have all the data at their fingertips. So I do wanna finish with you Josh, you're in a slightly different realm.

You can collect data directly from your users, but trust and behavior change are huge with an app like yours. So how are you dealing with the first touch experience in terms of gaining that trust so that they'll give you the information that you're looking for? - Yeah, I mean it's consistent with everything that you two have said. I think what I was taught, at least by the brand folks and I'm a recovering software engineer, not a brand person, but is to think of our businesses, our brands as personalities, maybe a collection of personalities.

And I think that the way I think about it and sort of what I think I'm hearing is the sort of cognitive dissonance of that first touch where you expect this system to know something about you and it doesn't. You have my information, I know you have my information and why are you asking for it again, this is really annoying is a horrible first impression. Just no different than a first impression with a person. The other piece that, so we think about that, right? Just consistency of everything, of tone, of UX, of all of it. I think that is part of building trust is projecting that you know what you're doing, which we all expect from the businesses we interact with. If you went to the Apple store, and you know, it didn't feel like an Apple store, you'd think something was wrong.

The other piece I guess I would highlight, or the other example is trying to make sure that the technology is not pretending that it's something that it's not. Like I think someone mentioned the IVR example, but having the IVR ask you, you know, attempt to quasi diagnose or steer you or whatever is extremely frustrating. Because you know, you're talking to a computer and you know that the computer doesn't actually know that much and it should just cut it out.

Which I think is a good sort of, you know, watch out for us and maybe others as we deploy more gen AI and the other sort of, you know, very buzzy things, but not pretending that those things are actually replacing people, which I don't think they are. I agree with Craig, for a very long time, if ever. - Great. Well I think we are finishing just on time, so I'd like to thank our panelists for a great discussion.

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2023-12-25 20:36

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