[Music] welcome to tech on earth a podcast aimed at bringing a practical lens to tech ethics around the world i'm elizabeth ranieres founding director of the notre dame ibm technology ethics lab at the university of notre dame today i am joined by dr amana rakhi a professor at the institute of business administration in karachi pakistan an expert on the islamic ethics of technology dr akeeb thank you so much for being with us today and for joining me so early in the morning from karachi i really appreciate it thank you thank you for inviting me it's an honor great so i'd like to begin where we typically do on this podcast which is with your personal journey tell us how did you come to study and publish on islamic perspectives on technology ethics um all right i'll begin with the name of god is the most beneficial the most merciful i actually started off my career doing an undergrad in philosophy i graduated back in 2004 and while i was studying for my philosophy degree simultaneously i was enrolled in a in a program that looked closely at the at the islamic scripture the texts and so i was i was doing the two programs simultaneously and then i used to you know come across uh questions and ideas which i would then try to uh sort of situate within the islamic theology and try to to figure out some of the answers and then also at the same time i found out that there are some very pressing contemporary questions or other dilemmas that you know the muslims need to deliberate upon and and while uh for instance i was studying philosophy of science and critical theory i was surprised by the fact that uh many of the muslim intellectuals intelligentia scholars they they weren't as aware of that so the the because of the you know the colonial heritage uh the muslim populace uh the more educated people were were too old with science and technology and we're not very cognizant of those deeper uh questions of an ethical nature so uh so yeah so that's when sort of i i might say lately that that's when so i thought that there was there was a need to work on that and again not just something that requires a deconstruction because there is a lot of critique already that was being produced within the western uh you know academic literature in the past few decades um so i thought that uh there needs to be some constructive work that needs to be done through uh through an islamic you know metaphysical epistemological and ethical perspective so when i started off my doctoral program i was more bent upon working on science but somehow it eventually you know turned out to be technology got it that's really fascinating i mean you bring together so many disciplines in your own background and i think those of us working in this field are recognizing more and more the importance of true interdisciplinarity let's dive right into the islamic perspective and we can start perhaps from the critical lens and then turn to the more constructive perspective as you as you frame it so from from a critical or more negative frame i think you've you've said or you've written that there's a crisis of morality as a result of what you term postmodern technologies i was hoping you could help us understand what you mean by this and unpack a bit of what post-modern technologies are and how how you view them through an islamic perspective what we call modern technology had this built-in optimism where you know there were those higher ideals of let's say human progress there is you know miliarism you know things that we find and people like dewey and others so there is like a hope and optimism right in terms of perhaps some sort of a a general human betterment kind of a kind of a utopia but that's like now seriously question both on the theoretical and practical grounds right so practically we have seen you know some immense destruction in the past century as a result of the technological advancement uh but um even on a more on a more theoretical level we are um encountering uh those deeper questions of of morality right and or what what should be the the goal the idea what sort of human society do we want to create what sort of individuals do we want to have who inhabit those societies and those questions are difficult uh to answer because of of the perspectives that lack a deeper metaphysical basis right so in in such a situation we we are sort of in a deadlocked position right where we don't have a strong foundation to provide us with a stable morality to guide our goals and aims to towards which we should be designing our technology and in that sort of a moral vacuum what happens is that technology assumes the higher end you know becomes an end in itself and this is what i call postmodern uh you know the the the extreme uh manifestation of that postmodern condition right where means become ends right so you become i can illustrate that for instance like i'm talking to you why i wire this technological medium right so what is uh what is the intrinsic end here in our conversation is is is having a meaningful intellectual you know conversation about some pressing ethical problems that humanity is facing right and and and it could have been through a number of means right we could have been talking over phone we could have met in person right uh it doesn't matter right uh what means be used but in a way if means take over right it becomes more important the kind of sophisticated means that we are using that can keep us in touch you know 24 7 that becomes more important yeah let's zoom in on those means versus ends because i know your book is focused on um i believe what you determine objectives approach right or i don't want to mispronounce this makasid makasid is that how you pronounce it yes and so is this what your book is getting at in terms of an objectives approach could you elaborate on your view there oh sure so basically uh uh in trying to address that sort of gap or vacuum that i that i just mentioned um i have tried to sort of use a traditional you know islamic ethical resource right um and that is the uh the makassar right and the makasida sharia is is primarily it's a paradigm where the early muslim theologians uh they they tried to uh sort of excavate or they sort of derived uh some basic ethical principles or objectives from the scriptures that is from the quran and the the sunnah of the the prophet muhammad so um so there are like lots of particulars that are mentioned in the scriptures but they wanted to uh to derive those you know general principles uh that are actually meant to be preserved and protected and they called it the makasid or the objective that the whole religion of islam or the the islamic ethics is meant to save god these certain basic fundamentals right and they there's some disagreement over that but you know so generally speaking they talk of those five universals and that's all for all humanity that's not just for muslims and that's like religion life intellect wealth and honor right or your lineage um and they say that no matter what we uh what we are asked to do or what we are prevented from doing you know both the jews and the dawns uh that's part of the uh islamic ethics is meant to uh to protect these fundamental universals and that's actually meant to ensure another term that i have used that my work is based upon is the muslah or the well-being uh which means that these objectives are meant to secure the collective well-being of humankind um and that's why it's very important to safeguard those yeah so this well-being concept is really interesting as well um so one of the things that um our lab is focused on are values underlying technologies and approaches to technology and i know you've also talked a lot about values i want to look at what some of the predominant values are today in the the technology conversation and how they compare to core uh islamic values so i was asking about this example of efficiency right which is very predominant in the conversation versus a value like compassion and how you think about the interplay there so efficiency is actually the most important value when it comes to technology today right efficiency and i would also add convenience for instance and that goes very well with the instrumental logic that informs the the technological paradigm today right and also because when we don't have any foundation to to give us any sort of final values to aim to it what happens is that efficiency becomes the highest value or rather the norm right and it becomes enough to just say you know as a justification or as a rationale behind anything or any technology or technological application that it saves up on time it's more efficient it saves up on labor so on and so forth i just want to zoom in a bit so i make this more concrete for listeners who maybe are not you know so deep in this conversation but let's look at a specific industry or you know technology or maybe um something like healthcare how would how would these values perhaps play out in in a specific context or industry like that could you give us some examples perhaps yes because right now um when we were working on artificial essays right and we were looking at you know caring bots for instance right in terms of you know who are more efficient who are supposed to be more efficient than let's say human carers but then there is this element of um of compassion uh that's like an and human conscious compassion that that would be lacking in that and the other thing looking from the islamic and i think we actually um share this with other religious traditions like christianity and and i think almost all other religious traditions there when we are caring for other people uh let's say sick people or patients it's not just meant for their physical recovery or physical revival there are lots of other dimensions when we are caring for the patient it's one because when we are uh sort of in such a close proximity with a sick person we really understand deep enough the frailty of human life in and of itself and then from an ethical perspective we have this this opportunity this chance of doing good for someone and then at the same time when we do do good to other people you know in terms of taking care of them we have a chance of raising our own uh raising in our own uh spiritual heights right and and being able to to become closer and closer to the ideal of moral excellence right so for instance in islam you know it's it's a it's a very a highly uh rewarding thing to go and visit the sick people right and it's not just enough to have you know a zoom chat with them right it's it's actually to go there to to be with them and and and in this time of the alienation and loneliness that we are suffering you know we're with this you know loneliness has become one of the syndromes of our of our postmodern age right people are just uh they don't have uh anyone and they are always looking forward to having human real human company uh right yeah and we saw this play out very much in the pandemic right where we had you know we were keeping people connected whether in nursing homes or hospitals with devices but perhaps lacking the human connection the physical touch other elements you know that go beyond what can be facilitated by modern or post-modern technologies so i think that's a really vivid example all right can i add one more thing you know so if i'm talking about the the islamic perspective then there's this concept of human nature which is called fitra right and this uh we have this this belief that you know uh this pitra is uh is part of our humanness right it's part of our metaphysical being and that fitra sort of defines who we are and it's part of human fitrah uh to to be a sociable uh being you you want other human and that's how we are designed by god and that's why god always places us in in family so he has structured uh the world accordingly right so we are never born in a way that you know we don't have those human social connections right and that's why it's it's appropriate you know when when defining wellness or well-being or human well-being uh this concept of fifra is very important right because otherwise it's like very difficult to define what's what's wellness right yeah so we that's the standard the gold standard right and it plays out especially when we are talking about things like compassion the human element and so on and so forth and it's so interesting that you say that because i think one of the things that comes up for me a lot in the technology ethics conversation is just how individualistic it can be right and so we talk about individual well-being and values but not so much the collective or the social or the interpersonal and i think what you're describing is sounds like both dimensions that you kind of need the individual and the collective to have a complete view of this is that an accurate representation yes yes and that's the beauty of the islamic ethical system actually because you are at the same time you're working on your own personal ethics morality spirituality enhancing your intellect intellectual abilities but that's that's tied to the the good of the community the society the human kind as a whole and also in my book i've talked about it so also the the paradigm that i have used there the objectives paradigm um it talks about uh it's very clear in that that when uh if an individual got is harming a collective god it's a principle uh it's a also a legal maxim in islam and again when i say a legal maxim it's not just law it's actually ethical slash legal maxim uh that you know if the the individual good is conflicting with a collective good then the collective good is to be given is to be prioritized right and there's like there's a consensus over that and also for instance when i mention those five objectives and it's pertinent to what you asked earlier regarding efficiency and compassion and those sorts of you know which value we should prioritize and and what should be the formula to decide that right so we have also this classification of necessities needs and uh enhancements right again we have arabic terms for that but i won't use that and that's like uh so sometimes for instance uh if there's like we are talking about human life the objective of human life and we are talking about wealth for instance right now there's a value uh in protecting valves and you know you could have more efficient means that could perhaps be more economically efficient right but is that a necessity or a need or an enhancement right with respect to the preservation of wealth and you know whatever huma resources versus there's something that's at the level of necessity in terms of human life right so if we are talking about compassion and uh you know that's a fundamental human value right because if you lose that we sort of lose something fundamental about being humans right so then we have to see right so we can give up efficiency efficiency because it would perhaps come under enhancements versus something that would come under necessity right so that's always sort of an ongoing debate right you you have the framework and then you know when when we talk about these these emerging issues or cases or whatever we we sort of applied apply that yeah no that's um that's a great point um so based on what we've talked about what i'm hearing is that you're saying you know technology has sort of become the means and the ends you know it's it's an end in itself um but it it doesn't have these values embedded in it and this value of efficiency or convenience these valleys are overtaking more important perhaps more human values that are coming from religion culture you know um other traditions so i'm curious from your perspective given that you are focused on a constructive approach to technology ethics what if anything can be done about this um given how concerning this phenomenon is yes so um i would say that there's a lot that can be done potentially but only if there are well intending well-meaning people uh so it's not something that's that's really out of hand i argued this in my book as well you know that strong thesis of technological determinism um i don't agree with that i think there's like a a two-way traffic where there's like a technology shaping human beings but human beings you know society's shaping technology right so it's it's going hand in hand technology it does shape us in in many irreversible ways but only because we allow it to either deliberately so it's it's primarily when we design technology prior to my work and thankfully now i see a lot of literature coming up you know that that's focusing on design because when i was back in um you know 2010 11 when i started off with my work there was a lot of emphasis on you know the responsibility on people who consume technology they should be responsible use and so on but not much on the designer's end right so again it has to start there even that i would say that's not enough because again if we look at holistically right technology is part of our societal social dynamics right even saying that we can somehow fix this problem with technology j in in isolation i don't think this would work and this has been working precisely because where does technology come come from right there there are human beings who are designing it and those human beings whether they are very affair cognizant or not they have some uh some value framework that is informing their decision so i'd give you an example right so for instance when uh let's say steve jobs right he um he had a vision right so this the vision is is either a personal vision or this vision is informed by some some sort of a meta narrative about you know what humans should be doing right so in that sense he had he envisioned everybody you know having a smartphone right and and he translated his vision into reality now this is what is happening all around us right so but the question is that vision steers technology but the vision itself is not technological right there's some informing higher paradigm right it's it's culturally informed or and that's where i believe this post-modern idea comes in right because having lost faith right in anything that's like really uh meaningful ethically driven it becomes more of sort of innovation for the sake of innovation right you just try and you just sort of put things up there and see how they proceed that sort of uh logic behind this constant you know incessant inventions so i would say i'm sorry i lost track so what what was your original question i think you've answered it uh which is what can be done and it sounds like i've heard a number of answers from you you know one is obviously to zoom out to look beyond the technology right to contextualize this more and to look at the human values embedded um you've talked about design i mean i would like to give you the opportunity our lab is very focused on um applied technology ethics so do you have maybe one or two very practical tangible takeaways for let's say global companies who really are concerned about this and and do you want to think about translating some of your work into practice sure i i would be happy to do that but again i wouldn't say that you know i if somebody asked me that you know we are designing this you know this one technology can you come and help us with that one technology i don't think this works it would work this way right because one technology again is part of a greater nexus you know a web of technologies and hans jonas actually gives a a very a you know pertinent example of let's just team train steam engines you know when they started off back in the 19th century so it's basically you know it's a whole gamut right and then you know you started uh digging out coal right and you designed the steam engine so that you could you know dig it out of the mines and take it out but then the steam engine themselves needed more call so you had to dig up more you know you see this sort of a imperative that starts happening absolutely it's not just when technology and that's what my work is meant to emphasize that it's a collectivity of those technologies and also behind the technology so if we are designing again the the same question what sort of human individuals we want to design what sort of families we want to design what sort of communities and societies we are looking forward to right so so those are some fundamental questions and actually this has come up in our own research of thinking of the whole educational paradigm so we started off with this idea that the engineers um the design engineers they are not equipped to actually tackle such questions right so when they design they are more focused on you know the productivity the efficiency side and they think themselves to be just problem solvers you know that they give solutions for those technical problems right of how to make something more efficient you know remove the errors and so on right and also the question of not just the question of how we should design it uh in the best possible way for instance to sort of align with the ethical values but some very basic key questions of whether there is a need to design it in the first place right those those critical questions that need to be asked and which i think are are not being asked presently and then of course also the the the the consequences that can be enumerated uh because i've emphasized this point in my book as well that islam islamic ethics is not purely consequentialist but of course it does take into consideration consequences and and we know that you know what the past few decades have shown us are some very grave consequences right so again there has to be the right intention there has to be the right goal or objective then the right sort of design or methodology and then the right consequences and it sounds like the lack of intention is an intention in some instances right um post-modern nihilism right right that you don't intention of doing anything and then anything can happen yeah exactly so um just to wrap up here i guess one final question to take us out on an optimistic note is what makes you hopeful about the future of technology ethics the disaster that we are experiencing right now i feel that unless there's something really serious to to make more and more people question it and not have this very naive optimism regarding you know technological progress or technology for the sake of technology right so when people see those those brutal you know killings the the loss of human compassion you know the the question of you know how we can differentiate you know reality from we are and and those sorts of things right then then i think uh we will gather the momentum where uh these things people would become serious um about these things and the worse it gets i think the hope for better i agree with you uh doctor thank you so much again for joining me today and i really look forward to continuing this conversation with you tech on earth is a production of the notre dame ibm technology ethics lab for more visit techefixlab.nd.edu [Music]
2022-05-10