Together, Decentralised - Hackers and Designers RGBdog presents: Volumetric Interviews
Hi. Thank you for joining us for the second episode of our RGBdog presents: Volumetric Interviews. I'm Soyun from RGBdog. So Volumetric Interviews is to introduce creatives who are building supportive communities with a great use of technology. So here we are with our second guest, Hackers and Designers, and we are in NDSM in Amsterdam with Juliette and Loes. Hi.
Hi, welcome. Hi, Soyun. It's nice to be here. Oh, thank you for coming.
Thank you for joining us here. And thank you for inviting us here today. So hackers and designers take an off hands approach to collaborate across disciplines to promote technological literacy while being inclusive of a various levels of expertise across a wide array of fields, from experimental talks, workshops to tool making, hackers and designers build a wide, diverse pool of international expertise that spans across multiple disciplines. So before diving into further, let's listen more about our interviewees. So could you introduce a little bit more about yourself, Loes? Yeah, my name is Loes Bogers, and I joined Hackers and Designers We just figured out in 2017 as a participant of the Summer Academy I kind of kept going to the events until somebody asked me, Hey, you're always coming.
Maybe you want to just help us organize. So that's how it started. And I'm an educator and I work at the Amsterdam University of the Arts, where I teach arts at the intersection of technology and science. Awesome.
And Juliette? My name is Juliette Lizotte, I'm French. I studied here in the Netherlands at Sandburg institute where I graduated in 2016, and that's how I met Anja. Anja Groten who founded or initiated Hackers and Designers back in the days.
And in 2017 I was asked to join the collective and I've been active members since then and I myself, I'm also a video maker and designer and I build worlds and look into witchcraft and magic. Wow. That's interesting. So how many active members are in hackers and designers? There's us.
And then Anja, Selby. Heerko. Margarita. Carl, Christine and Andre. And a new member, Pernilla. And Pernilla. So there's now 10.
I got to know hackers and designers through 2019. That was a summer academy here, like, right in this place. And it was like workshop for two weeks with the people from different part of the world. From the US, from another part of Europe. And then I had such a good time in Amsterdam.
Yeah. So, so, so many good workshops. And I really liked that The workshop leaders are also participants, so we can then dive into more about it later. So I understand hackers and designers as the decentralized organization to support like exchange of information learning and collaboration across the wide range of software and hardware developers. And designers, artists and researchers, which you have fostered over nine years, now. Why is the name hackers and designers? In 2013 and the first Hackers and Designers meetup happened that was initiated by Anja Selby and James, who used to be a member. James used to be a member of hackers and designers, and the idea of the first meetup was to actually bridge the world of hackers and the world of designers by simply inviting some hackers that new and some designers and artists that Selby and Anja knew. And that was how it happened
as a as this informal meetup called Hackers and Designers. It was growing into being this very, let's say, conventional way of organizing was like the organizers facilitating the workshop givers, teachers, and the students so participants and in 2018 we wanted to break out of this of this model and try to make it a bit more of a flat organizational model. And so we came up with this model of the bring your own workshop. And when we did the open call for the summer academy that we would usually do to recruit participants, we asked people to apply with a workshop or an activity to do during that year. I don't think was ever the goal to become an organization. You know, the point was, OK, we want to do some interesting things with technology, but the skills from our discipline are not enough, and it's more interesting to do it together.
I think that was the goal. So that's why the meetup started. And then you kind of become an organization. I guess when there's funding involved, all of a sudden you have to be an entity, you know, and then there's money and there's promises to do something and then you have to kind of deliver.
So I think there was also a lot of resistance at some point to professionalizing and being an organization in that way. So yeah, that's something we always kind of we do things, we try things, we evaluate, we share, we try something else in order to kind of stay away from becoming a hyper professional educational institution or something like that, because it's really also about us wanting to learn and meet exciting people to to play with and to question technology with and yeah. So what are the main activities that you're doing right now, like the Summer Academy and then more? We do a summer academy every year. We usually do a small symposium once every year. So last year it was in the fall was Open Source Tool Ecologies for Collective Organizing is this the title I think was a one day symposium with talks and workshops.
And every year we make a publication where we document what we do and also includes reflections. Yeah. So every year we, we do these publications that are looking back at our activities and we do that by like using or making and using alternative tools for publishing, making or like design. But we also try to organize things throughout the year so people can join if they're not available in the summer. And something that I wanted to add from the earlier question was that none of us members of hackers and designers are fully working on this. So kind of a side project or something that we do together on the side of our practices.
I guess like that could be also why we're not like fully professionalizing or becoming this like bigger, like institution or organization. Yeah. Have moments to like play and like meet with each other and meet with other people. Make it really like a sharing so they can learn and try out things for ourselves but also for others.
Thank you for the introduction so speaking of which, about the organizational thing, I have seen in your website that Hackers and Designers organization is decentralized it has all flattened organizational structure, and I would like to know what it means by that. The first thing is that there's not one person who decides. I think what we always try to do is get on the same page about what it is we would like to do. And if it's also manageable with the time that we have so sometimes it's a bit chaotic and sometimes takes a bit long to make decisions that way. Because we are funded by Stimuleringsfonds.
Most of the time. And also AFK since the few years, So thank you for making it happen. that co-op was like, OK, we have this chunk of money every year. How can we share the responsibility of using it and making each other like feel part of each project equally? Sometimes it's not super efficient. We're very different people, but what you enjoy about being Hackers and Designers is that you also get to learn things.
Oh yeah, well, you're learning things you're not very efficient or fast, right? Because you're learning. So this also plays into the whole idea of being flat and being open, and making space for that. Yeah, so that's how I also understood that, like making a decision collectively, It takes time, it takes effort, it takes really much of patience because giving the job to one person is just much easier in a way.
So it must be also a learning process for you. It's always. All the time. Let's get to know more about Summer Academy. Oh, yes. I think it's very exciting. So we're going to touch upon the three different things today.
So Summer Academy and then also tools and the publications that you make and the first Summer Academy, because I was a participant here and it was a great experience. So every year Hackers and Designers invites create creative practitioners who are interested in critically and practically engaging with technology and so the Summer Academy is run for a period of like one or two weeks where anyone working within any discipline is invited to participate and learn together. So to learn about various technologies.
Also, while adopting a hands on experimental approach, they created this a space that people can gather and then work together. And then the summer academy that I attended was a 2019 and then there was around, I think, 20 people in this room, and we were experimenting between participants and the workshop instructors. The we didn't have really the hierarchy because we participated for everything together. Yeah, actually we did.
We experimented with that format the year before in 2018 for the first time. And the idea came from trying to break this kind of like teacher student organization model and we wanted to, so we did this open call in 2018 for everyone who wanted to join the Summer Academy to also organize an activity which didn't necessarily have to be a workshop. It could also be like someone organize the dinner. It could also be something like a bit more of a side activity just to feel like you are taking part in nature and bringing something to the summer academy.
So I feel like it gave us like everyone different type of knowledge and different learning points and that there was quite interesting workshops I remember For example, like GAN created Bob Ross that was one of the workshops. And then also Volumetric Capture Lab to use volumetric capturing technology for creative use and you see here. Yeah, I think, I believe that it was one of my inspiration that I got for this series. And then also there was a Multiform Queering Sports that we did an activity that was making the sports not to compete and not to be competitive so that there were multiple different rules that we have to follow. But in the end, the aim of the sport was not to win. So I remember it was really exciting workshops.
and then the year after that was COVID time. And then there was the first time that you made it completely online, right? Exactly. Yeah. Because of COVID, we were a bit, of course, like everyone else, like challenged in like finding ways to organize activities.
And during that year already we had built our streaming platform website called live.hackersanddesigners.nl And the reason why we did that one was in order to get together with a show that we were being part of in Enschede, at Tetem. Eventually it was also exactly when all COVID happened. And then we had this platform that was built. So that was really actually it worked out pretty easily for using this platform. Then it turned out to be like a way shorter format.
One week we did an open call for workshops. We had 13 workshops for the full week, which was a lot. So there was like quite a lot to coordinate and a lot happening at the same time, And time zones. Yeah, time zones, those people joining from all over the world. And we did an open call for participants and because we were doing it online, had so many workshops, we, we ended up with over a 75 participants, something like that. That is not including the people giving workshops that were also sometimes joining other workshops.
So it was like almost 100 people that were part of this experience and in a lot of things happening simultaneously. That also led to last year's edition of the Summer Academy, where we tried to do a hybrid format like using some of the learnings from the year before. Also being able to facilitate things online or like arrange things online with other organizations because the format we did last year was to have different nodes of the Summer Academy, one here in Amsterdam, one in Vienna, one in Pittsburgh and one in Harare in Zimbabwe.
And in order to do so, we collaborated with different organizations, collectives or in Zimbabwe was one person to develop workshops together and host Summer Academy at the same time. So that was also like a new experiment and like how to use this this tools to connect, but also like sharing these like workshops groups and like being in a space but connected to other spaces. It was like complicated and ambitious project, but we made it happen somehow. So talking about 2021 though, Summer Academy, the main concept was open tools for collective organizing. So what does it mean by this? I know you explored open source tools for this one. How was it? How was it organized? Open tools, I think it was always the thing that we find out what kind of creative possibilities does it have with government of limitations, does it have what kind of agency do you have to kind of turn it into something else completely? Well, I guess maybe it was also a bit inspired by the lockdown from the year before where everyone had to all of a sudden do everything online.
Everything, everything. So it emphasized how dependent we are, right? When it comes down to it. So we worked a lot with the broadcasting software OBS, based tools that we build, and then things like Jitsi and Zulip instead of Slack so we were trying all these things and we thought actually that's an interesting area to explore as well because organizing is part of one of the biggest parts of the work. Right? But we don't always highlight it. It doesn't come center stage a lot. Yeah. So I think we felt like
it was a good opportunity to make it the topic as well, and that it can be a creative it can also be a creative space. Definitely. Especially because you are also trying to make the organization decentralized to really distribute the roles and everything. And you are working on the open source software, which is not easy. Of course I myself is also trying to really get out of the big corporation bubble and then we have to pay for a subscription and we are really doomed if we don't have it. So like as an artist who is depending on it, it's very dangerous, right? So what are these - What are the tools that you have explored? I'm so curious.
More tools. Yeah. Well, as you were saying, OBS, obviously for broadcasting and we try to shift from Slack to Zulip, but we've also been using a lot Etherpad for collective note taking, Ethercalc, as a tool for spreadsheets. And yeah, but also, I mean since a really long time, we're already quite involved in the open source community like we are using Github a lot, like using other people's code, sharing our codes online. So all the tools that we've been trying out and like building in the last year, whether for publications or specific projects, we always documented the code and let it online for other people to use and yeah, and it's also been helping us so much for our, for all the projects we've done, like we've had like a really long ongoing project about self-driving cars, which started from like a toy hacking workshop and like hacking toy cars like, you know, the ones with like little remote and using them with Arduino and like sometimes sensors are like always with a sensor but different types of sensors, more or less smart, like also experiencing with machine learning. So it's like kind of a growing project that we would never have been able to do without being part of this open source community.
And I guess we're not so rigid about the open source. Like we also like sometimes use like Google applications and like Google API, like it's kind of a learning process. So I think we've had sometimes critiques about like, oh, but not everything you do is open source.
But we are really trying. Yeah, definitely. It's like not only using it for yourself but also sharing with others. So you are spreading very slowly yeah. Like they did with the big corporations with us. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Because I mean, even like within education, like what does it mean when everyone is using like Google and Zoom? Like whether like I mean, of course it's more convenient. It works all the time and you know, you can rely on them because it's been proven that it works. But like ethically, is it OK? Not to romanticize it though, because I mean, when we ask ourselves, what does it mean to host your own thing or to own your own software? Well, it means a lot of work and it means a lot of maintenance and it means a lot of mistakes that you then have to fix. And what is nice about those open source tools is that if you have a crazy idea of using it for something else, there will be a way to kind of do that. Definitely. And we do that.
And then it leads to super exciting new tools, I think. Yes. Yes. And also, like, the community is like never ending generous. Like it's really, really, really exciting because it's really like about putting things together like different bits of code from different people, people that tried out to do the same thing as you and did it in a totally different way you would have done it. And then that opens gates to like do more things. And it's really exciting.
it's really like a pool for sharing and like learning together with people you just never met? It just links you to people that you feel connected with that is interested in like this specific tools or is excited about. Yeah, like experimenting with all this and trying out and failing a lot. I can't agree more because I also started graphic design back in The Hague and I read that 80% of books in the world is made in InDesign. Wow. And if you think about it, that's really ridiculous. And I remember when I was studying, it was really, really I didn't really like making books and then we were learning InDesign, Of course, that is only one way that it is framing all the books in the world to be, how it looks.
So I really appreciate this experiments and then taking time and sharing with the community. I think it's really awesome. so now I'm thinking one of the reasons why that I didn't really like making books was maybe I thought the tools were very limited and I didn't really realize I can make my own tools or I can explore other options.
So I know that you have developed some interesting tools for publication, actually. Could you introduce us more about it? Yes, of course. So Hackers and Designers has been making books since a while, actually, because Anja, who I mentioned before Anja Groten, was also trained as a graphic designer like me. So we share this interest in book making and in also experimenting with different ways of making books. So before I joined Hackers and Designers I had already made two publications to document the activities of Hackers and Designers using alternative tools, Scribus, which is an alternative to InDesign open source that actually works very well. So I invite everyone to use it instead of InDesign.
But it is of course very tempting to use InDesign when you've learned how to use it. That's cool. And this is what everyone uses. And then and also but and also using WIKI to Print, which is very well documented online. So it's like HTML to print, I think. And there's a lot of different projects that have like this a lot of different like collective or like individuals that are using this.
So it has, it's very rich. You can find a lot of documentation to make your own publishing projects using this these tools. And when I joined in 2017, we made this book On and Off the Grid which was using a tool made by Sarah Garcin who a French designer and educator that was, Oops! The page is falling. And it's called the PJ Machine. And the PJ machine is a tool that was explored during the summer academy that you took part in. So maybe you can say something about it. Yeah.
Because I also run a workshop she built like a web based tool that you can run on your computer and you had to put all the content that you wanted to put in, how to make it trendy and text files and image files and folder. And then she made a system that allowed this layouting web browser interface to be controlled by hardware buttons. So the PJ machine stands for publishing, and that's literally the prototype that she made with like really big buttons and a joystick to kind of joystick and game console together, in your publication and in the workshop we've developed other interfaces to kind of yeah, to design the layout. And that book was made with that and I think the cover is even printed with a special conductive ink so that if you have crocodile clips for electronics, you can wire up the cover of the book and hook it up to the machine and then use the book as a controller to design more books. Yeah Nice one. So Sarah's code is available online on GitHub and we use that code that we modified for making our own.
Yeah, script for it. And it's also available on our GitHub and the way to wire it as Loes was saying with the cover or with anything that you want to make as a controller of PlayStation, for instance, or bananas that you want to touch and like make a book with, who knows. We use the Makey Makey, which is like a small computer that you can like wire things to and you can also make music with. But this is also something that you could do with like raspberry pies, for instance, to just use anything as a controller, basically.
So I understand this book as like as a designer, you play it like reading or DJing, like you switch things and then you change the layouts intuitively. Like, I think it's very different from traditional book making. It has something intuitive, but it's also preparing your information in advance. So like the rules you want to apply to the to the layout and see how it looks and then making them into rules for the rest of the publication. Yeah, but then, you know, yeah, there's coded rules, but then you can open them up again as well. I mean, if you're a physical interface, it's not a mouse.
And the keyboards it also becomes a bit strange like, oh, which is which? And you don't have this blind habits or you don't really know what each button is going to do. And for example, with that tool, we once went to Copenhagen and did a workshop where we made physical games, so really like throwing a ball and crawling over the floor and super physical like body type things with connective elements to make the electrical connections, of course. Right. But then we made rules like, OK, we have one minute to play that game and then whatever we end up, that's what it's going to be.
And then we move to the next element. We have one minute to play the game and then whatever. When the time is up, that's what it is, you know? So it also helps you think about how can I kind of play with who makes the decisions? Can we make the decisions together and can we externalize it and how do we evaluate what comes out? So and also just accepting that things don't look exactly how you want them and like being trained as a graphic designer and like having this really like specific set of rules that sometimes differ whether you do like a French book or like a Dutch book, English movie or whatever, and everyone has their own like little rules of publishing or whatever. Like this is a lot of space for like, yeah, I mean, we can't solve this in the code, then it's just going to be in the book.
The link is going all the way through all the columns. That's how it looks. So because we can't, we can't fix it somehow and that's a bit sometimes the thing with this open source process is, is that sometimes things just don't work how you want them and you look for why you ask other people and it's just like very blurry why things don't exactly work. And then you just have to accept that this is how it is.
Yeah. In a way that it is definitely challenging. The traditional way of making it is.
And for instance, if I we made this book the year after, so I think you saw that during the summer academy where you were part of and this one was made with a script that here who is in the studio now made with us and it was like a bit newspaper generator that was a script straight like made straight in Python and where we would like feed all the content as markdown documents. And basically the script was just like taking all the content. each contribution was put in the layout with a random number of columns, and we could, me and Anja, just make it a whole publication by just pressing a button in the terminal and it was making the full PDF.
So that's also a thing where like of course, then we had to set all the rules in advance, try out a lot and like agree that, OK, this is how it looks. But then once we say, make the publication in our terminal, then we have a PDF and we have to look through it, Then we like, are we happy with this? Are we happy with how it looks, can we do something different than we do another one? And then it's just all different because it has this random columns and the random fonts and on and on. So it's kind of a negotiation with the machine. Also, like with the randomness that we have to at some point settle and be like, OK, I guess this one has less errors than others. so we're going to pick it and that's what we're going to print now. Yeah, it's very different values that you're working on.
Yeah. I mean, maybe this one is good to talk about. Yeah. With that.
this one, we made a tool together with one of the participants from the Summer Academy who gave a workshop on a sensor that measures your heartbeat and then we use that input to kind of change the different properties in there in the design. And while you were the voice voice over this, I think for this. So I designed this book using my voice and so Jonas Bohatsch, who made the publication with us and coded this interface, made a tool for us that was using a Arduino linked to a heartbeat sensor. So I was wearing the heartbeat sensor on my finger and I was talking, I was reading out loud each contribution, the sensor was taking my heartbeat and through the Arduino in processing was reading my heartbeat. And with the mic of my computer it was taking in my voice. And if I would speak louder or lower, it would also record the data and the heartbeat was changing the font and the voice.
The yeah, the voice volume was changing the size. So I was reading out loud and I had to like also press press my spacebar all the time to see it because to see it so that it would record the data for each word. So I was like reading it was a, it was like a very interesting little demo. OK, so here's your content. Yeah. How, to, distinguish, no, distinguish, only one press.
between, aliens, and, native, .... So basically. So then it was like it really like sometimes. Not exactly. Right process, but it's so it looks very funny because then it has a lot of like, I don't know. Changes in the middle of the. Text.
Yeah, it changes in the, in the text. And we also try to make this changes not too disturbing for the reading because at the end of the day, you want people to be able to read the book. Still, it looks. OK. So that was, that was the process and it was really interesting. So I was using processing and then when I was done with a public with a contribution, it was exporting it as a PDF and often I was making errors in this process of making it into a PDF. So then I had to do it all over again.
So yes, because you're working with this technology that is, Yeah, like it's, it's open source. It's like everyone is contributing to it but therefore is also like never truly perfect and, and it's just like trying out and sometimes it doesn't work and you don't understand why. And then you just have to figure it out or accept that maybe it's just like looks a bit flaky or something or find your ways around it and play around with the, with the limitations as well. So every year you develop some sort of tool for making publications that was developed from I mean, inspired from a chat that you have had.
Oh yeah. That's the last one. Yes. So that's this one from last year. Last year so there's another tool that here co-developed with Karl and I think with Anja, where we moved from the chat platform Slack, we used to work a lot on Slack.
We moved to an open source version called Zulip and basically we created the CMS system. So I think it's like CSS rules that can be kind of changed and applied by living comments in the Zulip chat. So people are writing stuff and I go, oh, Soyun, how're you going, what time do we meet for the filming blah blah, And you respond with heart and then as a sort of designer, you can say whenever a heart is applied to a message, this message will be styled in this in this way. So with phones and the going around the things.
So you can imagine you're writing the content in this collaborative system and you sign it by applying emojis that you then give rules to. Yeah, we were interested in like making this tool that was like really like truly collaborative. So like during the Summer Academy, we also experimented with also being multiple people using it. So like you put content to react on each other, what rules are overruling other rules? And like it's really it's was a really fun tool to like try out in different contexts and it was really fun to make the book. And something we forgot to mention is that why we wanted to use this like chatting and this kind of like exchange communication channels thing was because the year before we did this super inspiring workshop doing the summer academy with Lark and Xin, from the USA, who contributed to the Summer Academy with an awesome and very well documented workshop to build our own chat rooms.
And so during three days we did this like alone together sort of. And at the end of the three days we all went in each other's chat rooms to try out how it works. And it was quite, at the end was quite basic for the time, but it was a really interesting learning process and there were also super generous in the ways they introduced like all the technology around making this chat rooms and there was different levels of accessibility and it was super inspiring for us in many ways. Also in terms of pedagogies and it's brought us to think like this is how we want to make this. What if we would make the publication by chatting or reacting to each other's.
Yeah, like things. So I found this publication Tools as an experiment, but also a really good documentation tool. And I know you have so many information and resources that you've learned and you process online that this publicly open and accessible. In the last years with this idea of bringing your own workshop, and especially with the year of 2020, where everything happened online, we've developed this method of asking workshop givers to produce scripts. So step by step like tutorials, let's say, but it can take any form like some people did videos some others websites, some others like a PDF or like an email with all the different or etherpad with all the different steps. And so we really like to use this format actually because it's a great way to look into different pedagogies, different ways of approaching this kind of technical learnings.
And also to give space to that. Because I think we all we all know the like the GitHub explanations, tutorials to that, it works, but it doesn't show you the context or the ideas or what happens in the group or how do you get people warmed up to even start thinking about the thing. There is like from previous workshops, like a lot of different knowledge you can learn from like following these workshops. But we also feel like it's kind of interesting. Like if you are willing to give a workshop, if you're interested in like this format of a workshop, then you can also look at our different activities once they've happened and see, OK, how did this person give the workshop, what was the structure, how to even deal with like doing breaks or like I know how to use Python, but how do I make it learn to other people? Like this? Yeah, like so we also wanted to be like kind of a yeah, like toolkit for a lot of different practices. So we have covered only a few examples so far and then they have a lot of a lot of good other resources.
And if you are really curious about the source, the resources and tools and how the workshop went and all the process, you can go to hackersanddesigners.nl and you can read all the details over there. So now we are going towards the end. Oh, already miss you. I would like to ask you about the future and especially because you have worked with a lot of collaborators so far and how do you find your collaborators and what do you look for them? What do you look in... look for in them. And well, I think generally like a sort of openness that maybe you're super good at, like the academic thinking around something that at least you show you have an interest and the openness to also explore it from a practical side or the other way around, you know, so that I think those people make good collaborators.
Yeah, I guess like there is a lot of discussion these days also about like creating safe space, creating like spaces for sharing and for like exploring collaboratively. So that's what we want to do, that's what we're trying to do. But we're also not claiming that the way we do it is the one and only way or is the right way. A few years ago, we also, for the first time, wrote down a code of conduct.
So that's what like when we did the like everything online. And also it came from the fact that suddenly we had so many new participants because it was online. And so we had to like make sure that we were going to be in a space collectively that we all agree on. So setting a bit of standard for ourselves.
So now we also trying to revisit that and to always make sure that whenever we organize an event, whether it's offline, or online, that people are like able to read this in advance and also suggest other things. And I think something yeah, something like that, we are trying to work on more thoroughly in the last years is accessibility. And it's really challenging because like first like it's challenging to burst out of our bubble but also, yeah, just like simply like also think of different ways, like when things are happening online, who has access to it, how do we make it possible also for people with different abilities to follow like life captioning or like, yeah, all this or even when we are doing something in a space, making sure that it's accessible for different bodies and like trying to keep that in mind, also accessible to people that have children. If things are going on for long days, like how do you make sure that people that have different time availability can also join? So we are just trying to incorporate all this in our activities. That's very amazing to hear.
And thank you for sharing all the stories with us today. And it means a lot to us. Is there anything you would like to share in terms of the future plan? Yeah, come to all our events. Oh, come, come back. Come back, come. Next time.
So yeah, keep an eye on our activities. As you said, we're going to share soon and Open Call, For participating to the Summer Academy and you can join our newsletter also to be updated about our different activities. And even if you are not in the Netherlands, I think it's nice if you are interested in our community to connect even just dropping an email and we'll be very happy to exchange.
Thank you so much for today, Julliette and Loes and then Hackers and Designers. Everyone who fostered this place for us to listen to your stories. Thank you. Thank you, Soyun. And thank you everyone from the team for being here. Thank you so much for joining today for the second episode of RGBdog presents: Volumetric Interviews with Hackers and Designers.
It was super nice to have them here to listen to their stories about decentralized organization as well as experimental workshops, publications and so on. So we have more episodes coming that we want to we want to show you exciting stories. So please keep in mind that you can follow our RGBdog Instagram or YouTube channel and also Krea, YouTube channel for our future episodes.
So thank you so much for today and I will see you next time. Bye bye.