The rise of the Tech Super Chief | Ep. 210

The rise of the Tech Super Chief | Ep. 210

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with technology touching so many different parts  of businesses these days companies have created so   many different Tech leadership roles at at the top  level that it has caused confusion around who is   responsible for what part of the technology stack  would a Consolidated Super Chief of Technology be   the answer we're going to discuss this on this  episode of today in [Music] Tech hi everybody   Welcome to today and Tech I'm Keith Shaw joining  me on the show today is John Spence he is the   North American managing director of data and AI  at thought works and Thomas Davenport he is the   president's distinguished professor of Information  Technology at Babson College welcome to the show   gentlemen thank you happy to be here and the  reason we've got two of you on the show is   the because uh both of you recently published an  article and study around the idea that more than   80% of technology and data leaders have reported  confusion in their organizations about the roles   of different technology oriented groups so I want  you to for for those of us who haven't lived this   um cuz we we've seen the the you know the the  chief blank officer it started off with CIO and   then and then all of a sudden we started adding  uh Chief data officer Chief technology officer   Chief you know you know and now we're we're  in the world of AI and I'm starting to hear   of Chief AI officers um can you give us a quick  history lesson about the rise of these different   sea level technology titles within that corporate  workspace sure I'll start because I I think I'm   older than John so I was around for all of this so  um early in my career actually as an IT consultant   in Cambridge Mass um across the river in Boston  this guy who worked at the at the First National   Bank Hub Boston um which is now Bank of America  um named bill Senate um he and um his favorite   consultant Bill Gruber came up with this idea  of um maybe we should call this um head of IDE   he rooll Chief Information officer right and um  I can't actually remember if it worked for bill   Senate that he was given that job officially um  although he clearly aspired to it and um uh you   know that became fairly common it's pervasive now  Chief technology officers were first in Tech firms   but a lot of non-tech firms decided well that  sounds cool and we want to be like a tech firm   so they created that role um I'd like to think  that there was more systematic thinking behind   it but I'm not sure there was and then the first  Chief Information Security Officer appeared in   1995 Chief data officers Chief analytics officers  started to pop up um primarily in companies with   a lot of data like financial services but then  they also became pervasive Chief digital officers   appeared I think primarily with with um digital  transformation and e-commerce and so and they were   kind of um outwardly facing toward customers in  many cases and um um you know you knew we had a   problem when we started to have um intersecting um  um initials Chief data officers and chief digital   officers and um as you say Chief AI officers have  appeared Chief um data analytics and AI officers   in some cases and combinations which means a I  think an unhealthy set of letters to remember or   many um those many of those who try to try to do  it it's almost like you know yeah you almost you   know you have a problem when the acronyms um are  starting to get confusing and you can't figure out   what the d stands for is it data digit digital or  something else and then you know and then you add   another letter so that's why you get uh for cesos  you get Chief Information Security Officer which   is different from the chief security officer for  some reason um so when did you when did you first   start noticing this confusion um and that it was  becoming a problem again why did you then you know   reach out and do this survey um tracking this  confusion John why don't you why don't you jump   in on this one since you you did the survey yeah  so the problem our clients were facing uh was the   the responsibilities I think the the growth  that Tom described represents that growth of   responsibilities the expansion of responsibilities  am I responsible for you know in the 80s just   getting payroll out whereas in the 2000s and  and now you're responsible for assets and   capabilities that are critical to the business and  so with the expansion of that responsibility you   start crossing boundaries and is this a business  responsibility is this a technology responsibility   and and of course if you have all of these  different officers well I'm the AI officer I'm   the data officer I'm the technology officer you  start to get a little bit of a Turf War confusion   as to who is actually responsible for driving the  outcome so this is where these uh these super tech   leaders have started to emerge yeah yeah I'm G to  youum you're jumping ahead just a little bit we   don't we don't want to spoil we don't to spoil it  too much but but like it you know is this really   a big deal for companies like to be confused about  like what what are the consequences of this um cuz   if it was just a matter of like well I don't know  who to talk to I could eventually figure it out   but you but this is really causing actual problems  within these organizations right you followed up   on a lot of these questions in the survey like you  know how is this really affecting your business   um you know so it's not just about oh I don't know  who to talk to but it's a lot more than that right   absolutely it really has to do with driving  the business outcomes that the organization   is looking for these technology leaders and  so it becomes that a little bit of a game   of beach ball is well I thought you were taking  care of it I well you're the technology officer   I thought you were taking care of it so the the  CEOs and the executives of the firm the directors   uh on the board are looking for these technology  capabilities in their organization to deliver and   they're they're feeling they're falling behind  or they're not achieving the outcomes they're   looking for they're seeing a lot of money become  being invested but not actually delivering results   and so that that's where that that separation  of responsibilities who is actually responsible   for driving this outcome who's responsible  for exploring these new technologies and new   capabilities in the organization this is where  the challenge really hits the business yeah and   and you also found yeah go ahead Thomas go ahead  I was just going to say that I got interested in   the topic when I um was talking to a um person  at a large Investments firm in the Boston area   and he really um aspired to be Chief data  officer for the company and uh apparently   that um idea had surfaced and gone up to the  top of the organization and the CEO said forget   about it we've already got too many um sea level  tech people and so I wondered how common I mean   those of us in this field kind of knew that they  were um there were a lot of these roles and they   were starting to collide a bit and so on but um  I was just C curious um uh how pervasive was the   issue and what problems did it cause and frankly  you know I don't know about John I was somewhat   shocked to find out that the incumbents of these  roles felt like it was a problem um uh they felt   like it was confusing to the organization they'd  had cases where um they'd been held back by um   you know um responsibility debates with other  other people in roles so um it turned out to be   a much bigger problem than than I realized and you  even discovered that um some of these other these   new roles not didn't necessarily report to a CIO  but rather reported directly to a CEO right like   the reporting structure was also a mess because  you know for whatever reason if if if a company   wanted you know like I don't want to report to  the CIO I don't want to or the CIO I want to   report directly to the CEO to makes makes maybe it  makes them feel more important but that's creating   issues too right because then you get personality  clashes and well I don't have to do anything for   you cuz I don't work for you type of a thing right  I've seen some really serious clashes where the   chief data and information officer wouldn't even  talk to each other for example wow and you know   this is crazy when data and information I think  probably have a lot in common in abstract well   yeah well it it also i' I've seen some cases where  I've talked to people where you get a a split of   of Divisions within that it group and you have one  group that's like well I'm responsible for keeping   the lights on and and I'm the the one who puts  out the fires in terms of internal employee uses   and devices and then there's this like thought  leadership guy who then decides um and I just   say guy could be a woman as well just want to make  clear of that but like there's the person who then   thinks about strategy and vision and most people  are aspiring to that that that vision and strategy   position rather than the person that just has to  keep the lights on right right and and you think   about it from a perspective of somebody who  is running the parts of the business you know   somebody who is you know in charge of marketing  or in charge of operations and they want to get   something done they need to get a new system put  in place or they're looking to explore how can we   start using AI to support our business and they  have to go through this list of individuals and   connect with each one of them and well can you  help me with the security uh aspects to this can   you help me get the data I need can you help  me implement the systems how's it what cloud   is this going to go on and how's this going to  work suddenly you have this responsibility of   courting you're you're a contract the the prime  contractor on an initiative rather than just   saying Tech folks can you get this done for me  yeah yeah yeah so all right so now I'm going to   jump ahead to the to a a potential solution um and  in the research in your article you suggest that a   possible solution to this is the creation of a  what you call Super Chief or super tech leader   right I think we're mixing the terms a little bit  but it's basically one person who would report to   the CEO Andor board but then work with people on  the tech side and the data side um not necessarily   creating a new position we're not suggesting that  all of a sudden we create a new person that does   all of this but but is it more is it more that the  CIO should be the the person that should be this   Tech leader or can would it be someone from the  data side for example like how how would if you   were running a company how would you you know kind  of consolidate this if you saw this uh you know at   a company well I would say there are two answers  to that question and one is you know which role   is the most wellestablished and has the already  has the most people and budget um reporting up   to them and and in most cases that is the CIO I  think it's fair to say um but the other issue that   you'd want to use in making that decision is um  who's more likely to lead you know Tech enabled   business change within the organization and if  your CIO is a keep the lights on type person   I did a survey a few years ago suggesting that  there were about um a third of cios who really   you know are less interested in business changed  than they are keeping the infrastructure running   then I think it would be a huge mistake to put  the CEO the the CIO in charge of all these other   functions but in general um when we started to  look around for these super tech Chiefs I again   I was surprised that there are as many as there  are already they have a variety of different   titles but um most of them have CIO as I think  their original title or their their primary tit   yeah yeah okay so we're not seeing a lot of titles  that are calling themselves super Chiefs that's a   little bit we only wrote the article you know  a few months ago so who knows um yeah you know   and so yeah so you know you're not seeing you're  you're not suggesting that anybody then create   a new role that that has those responsibilities  right it's almost like pick pick the best person   for that job and then what would they do what they  would just B basically be the liaison between the   the the board and the CEO and then the rest of  the of the tech of you know Tech organization   get rid of these these direct lines to the CEO  so to speak well first thing I want to go back   to something Tom said and point out that these  individuals have emerged so this is less about   saying well let's let's create something new there  are people who've been successful regardless of   their title they've just sort of surfaced because  of the the right they have the right capabilities   and then to your your question it's then how do  you enable those individuals to be most effective   for the organization so you're giving reducing the  reporting lines simplifying the process for them   to execute and drive towards outcomes so so is  it giving them direct access to the CEO or direct   access to the board is it is it giving them a a  a bit of vagueness in their responsibility and uh   and the definition of their role and driving  towards outcomes so it's enabling them to to   be most success uccessful yeah yeah and and so  there's another there was another dissent that   you had in in the survey that there were a lot  of people that said that they didn't think that   this idea might be a great idea because you would  need some kind of checks and balances between the   world of of technology in the world of data um  you know do you have thoughts on that that part   of the survey where people were like we're not  so sure this might be a good idea that you do   need a little back and forth between people  within the the the tech part of the company   yeah I I personally don't agree with that but that  comment came from one I think he was um a CDO who   was also acting um CIO and um he had come from a  bank where he had a strong risk orientation and   you know maybe under those circumstances I could  see why you might want to split up some of the   roles but in general I don't think think it's  necessary and none of the um super tech Chiefs   that we spoke with um raised it as an issue you  know maybe it's not in their best interest to   do so but um some of them actually insisted I  think um we talked to Sean McCormack at first   student who I think is a client of yours John he  said I won't take a job that doesn't have all of   those kinds of different responsibilities you  just can't make things happen without them yeah   John anything else to add on that I do do you  agree with that descent or or you agree with   Thomas well I I agree with Tom on the the point  that in regulated heavily regulated environment   or special situation special circumstances  you might need particular controls yeah and   that that makes a lot of sense but controls are  always in place to make you move a little slower   to ensure that you are safe or you're well  governed or you meet certain compliance needs   but it does mean that things have to slow down  a little bit and so if if you need that level   of control that risk mitigation in the process  makes perfect sense most of the time most of the   clients that we're working with are struggling  with the fact that they're not going fast enough   that that things are falling in the cracks and  they're not getting the outcomes so I I would   say that control where you need it where it's it's  prudent but but really try and focus on the speed   and enabling people to move quickly all right so  let's let's say a company then gets to that point   where they're like okay we we definitely need this  we we we we've looked at our organization uh we're   seeing that that there's these bottlenecks and  that there's clashes and it's slowing everything   down we need to get faster so this is one of the  ways that we're going to do it um what are the   skills that you think would you know what skills  do do someone what does a person need to have to   become one of these super tech Chief things sorry  I've got to come up with a better title for this   um like you know is it definitely you know the  softer skills the leadership the business strategy   and and less about the technology knowledge it  feels like that if you if you're one of those   Tech Geeks you might not be suited for this role  versus one you know one of these people that that   have this strategy leadership and gets along  with everybody type of people or does it not   matter I me it might not matter right yeah go  ahead Tom yeah there is that issue of certainly   you know needing to manage up well um and in our  survey we found that um many of the people we   interviewed thought that managing up skills were  probably more important than you know managing   downward managing the tech people who report to  you um but um we found a surprising amount of   technological orientation among some of the super  tech people we um um interviewed um one had uh   programmed an Arduino device um to do something  with one of their products and um some other um   super tech leader I think it was SRI D russula at  TIAA who has a you know every Tech function plus   some customer service functions said you know I  I I um code for fun on the weekend so um I think   that can help you get the respect of the people  below you if you have some notion of of you know   what's going on in terms of the details of the  technology yeah yeah because otherwise otherwise   they might not they might not give you the respect  that you need if if you don't know anything about   technology right but there's also that I I I agree  with this point I I found this really uh a little   Charming actually is that these individuals were  doing it not they weren't doing it to necessarily   impress or stay say current though they were all  passionate about that but it was really their   passion for technology that drove this they were  excited to play with Arduino or or Sean en coding   with uh with his daughter and helping her through  school and learning together on co-pilot the there   were these examples of people who really enjoyed  it and I think that passion is one of the things   that makes has made those super tech leaders  successful in their careers they this is a   this is fun this is stuff I love to do do you  think that most of these roles will come up   through the the IT department or the technology  Department because they are uh so enthusiastic   about technology you know if if I had to do this  as an analogy would it be like all right uh is   it more of a business entree with a tech side  dish in terms of your Knowledge and Skills or   is it a you know a tech entree with the business  side dish where you you know you you know 80% of   your uh of your knowledge is around technology but  you also know how the business runs and or is it   the other way around like where do you see most  of those people in the super tech world falling   I think it's changing in that in the old days I  think in order to really understand technology   well you probably would have had to come up  through the it function but now um somebody   said to me recently A A Chief Information officer  at Liberty Mutual he said you know when I look in   at at meetings that we have with between it people  and business people it's harder and harder to tell   the difference between them and so I think um  it's generally a good idea for somebody to have   experience in both you know technology roles and  the business side and I think you'll be taken much   more seriously by the CEO and the board and other  um sea level Executives if you have some business   experience even if you've had a p&l um actually  at some point in your in your career yeah John   anything anything else to add on that yeah I  I think that's I I think that's spoton I think   that if you look at the education uh process  and the change and development in technology   over the past few decades it's definitely the the  the the people who are coming out of school now or   in the past couple of decades have had a focus on  technology in their education they might have had   to learn tooda in that introductory program but  it was definitely it has been recognized that you   must understand this you must look at the as an  asset as a strategic tool within your within your   toolkit um whereas in the past there definitely  was a mindset from business stakeholders listen   I I engag the tech people to do the tech stuff  for me you take care of that and tell me what   matters that you can't operate that you can't  you can't be competitive especially you mentioned   digital organizations you can't be competitive in  that environment if you're if you're separating   technology business right right now yeah in again  in the older days you could you know if you were a   business leader you didn't have to worry about  the tech part of it but now since technology   is touching every part of the business it would  feel like all of Your Business Leaders would at   least have some knowledge of of technology and  the tools and and you know what works and what   doesn't so that you get a little bit more respect  if you became one of these super tech leaders from   like the business side um but I but you know is is  that an outlier or not it could you know maybe not   in the future but maybe now I think it's I less  and less of an outlier I put in a minor plug for   my latest book called all hands on Tech um which  is about the sort of Citizen movement um relative   to technology and I think AI is just going to  exacerbate that you know um anybody can code   if they know enough to say what they want um and  outcomes a a perfectly fun in some cases anyway   Python program so I I think it's just going to  become quite pervasive that people have had some   experience in um developing systems or at least  participating in a you know system development um   initiative Tom what a what a great segue because  we're moving into the generative AI portion of the   show uh we can't get we can't do one of these  episodes obligatory on every podcast without   talking about generative AI you know has has the  rise of this um exacerbated this issue with with   the organizational structure uh because it because  generative AI does touch so many different parts   of the technology of of of the business we're not  talking about just one gen tool to maybe help the   IT department you know it's affecting marketing  it's affecting sales it's affecting accounting   it's you know Finance all those all those parts  of the company um you know so does doeses you know   does is this what what is causing this or was  it always there and this is like okay in order   for us to get a handle on what we're going to do  with geni uh moving forward we definitely need to   have this organizational structure in place does  that does that make sense yeah it does I I would   definitely say this has been a movement over time  that we've seen you know with the move towards uh   digital organizations it's we've been going in  this direction but um 2023 you know after the   release of uh 3.0 it it cranked it up a notch  yeah um the businesses you know the experience   that personally I had going into into 20123 was  this massive awareness by by business Executives   by Boards turning around and saying to their  technology organization hey what are you doing   about this this generative AI stuff and many of  the clients or organizations we talk to were hey   we've got a scramble we've got to get something  in place so the pressure on the organization the   expectations have come out of the release of you  know starting with chat GP uh GPT 3.0 in November   of 2022 it's just driven these organizations to  say this is the future and where many companies   you know you think in Pharmaceuticals or you think  in financial services sure they've been using data   science for decades but now it it's really hit  the mainstream in such a uh a pervasive way and   so now that really does put the pressure on  the organizations how do I bring this into   the Arsenal as well how do I make this part of of  the tools and things we bring to Market yeah yeah   the feeling that I got with with a lot of this the  generative AI stuff and the reason I'm asking this   question is because it feels like that everybody  wants a piece of that AI pie for example or this   is the golden ticket for the Willy Wonka Factory  and everyone's grabbing this and so the chief data   officer is like no no no I need it's because it's  data and then the chief technology officer goes no   no no no this is technology CIO goes no guys this  is all this is all CIO this is all our stuff and   so that's why you know the the rest of the company  sees this or the CEO and the board sees this and   goes we have to we have to like consolidate now  before we get into this strategy otherwise all   they're doing is then going to create like  well we'll we'll create a chief AI officer   or my other new favorite least favorite term is  this whole um Center of Excellence um like and   and that becomes well we'll just have a committee  of people doing it right and that that could lead   lead lead you down some really bad paths too  right Tom are you are you seeing this this kind   of battle for AI oh absolutely and we we asked  a question on this survey who's responsible for   generative Ai and it was all over the map and  I've talked to organizations where um a very   prominent um Health Care Organization I everybody  I talked to there who's responsible for generative   AI I am next person no I am I'm in charge so yeah  it's a really good career enhancer if you can get   people to believe you that you're responsible  for it so so yeah I mean I guess then what are   the consequences if if if a company does not look  at at this organizational structure at this point   can they survive I obviously you've seen people  that have have created these these Center of   excellences or the chief a officer while they  while I think they figure out the rest of the   the the issues right like it it feels like they're  going to have to go towards this consolidation or   can can you survive in and is just something that  like you know um mbas at Harvard just like talking   about with the internal organizational dynamics  of a company that just seems like it's a lot of   inside baseball here I don't know if it's going to  be a a stark survive or die line for organizations   but what you know you see those companies that  just keep making the right decisions and keep   moving forward and being seem to be ahead of of  the curve or ahead of their competitors I think if   if you're not prepared for absorbing the the new  technology how it will change your organization   how it change you work with your customers I  operate um you're going to be one of the people   looking over at those other companies and saying  wow I wish we got into that first I wish we'd done   that so I think it is an important differentiator  and is important too it's new it's it's something   that that people are figuring out and this is  where I think going back to that that um that   excitement these the successful super tech  leaders have around technology exploring the   new tech figuring out how is this going to change  the game for us those people that capability and   those people will help your organization be at the  head of the curve yeah yeah Tom anything else to   add on that yeah I agree with John and in a way I  think it will be a natural process and I think it   was natural and many of the organizations had  already created these roles you find somebody   who's very capable and business oriented and  who gets along well with the CEO and who advises   him or her um then you kind of slowly give that  person more responsibility and you're not going   to say well you know generative AI comes along I'm  going to create a whole new Chief AI officer that   doesn't report in through this person I've learned  to trust you wouldn't you wouldn't um dream of   that and what one of the things we found was that  Chief AI officers at least now are the Le least   well connected to the rest of the organization  of any other type of leader and you know that   would be really bad to have this really important  resource be led by somebody who wasn't connected   to anybody else so um I I think we'll slowly  see that the well-managed organizations will do   this more and the organizations that do it will  become you know better better managed do do you   definitely see this this happening in the future  with the super CH Chief leader um where it becomes   comes a different title than what you've currently  got or do you think that the like let's just say   that we give this to the CIO does this does this  Elevate the importance of a CIO or does it um or   do you need that new title and you know and we're  going to start seeing like Super Chief Information   offic like SCI or or super officer so I think but  again that's gonna be you're gonna have to come up   with a better acronym I think that would be a good  way to make your fellow um SE level Executives   quite resentful right um what you tend to find  I was reading this morning about Dogo Ral who we   didn't um profile in the report but he's the Chief  Information and digital officer at Lily and you um   you you tend to see combinations Chief Information  digital and data officer or chief information and   data officer or um you know something along those  lines they don't list all the things typically for   which yeah these super tech Chiefs are responsible  but um they they um list two or three and I I do   not think that the super tech leader or chief  is is going to take off as a title nor did we   intend it to to be oh no I I I think again the  the the point of these individuals emerging they   were the right individuals who showed up and  and it was less about giving them a title and   actually more about giving them just the autonomy  the space to be as successful as possible yeah so   so they don't have great titles they don't they  don't need great titles do do you think that the   the person that becomes this this Super Chief do  they have to advocate for this role themselves or   is it going to be a board level decision um where  the board and the CEO is going to say all right   you're now in charge of this and you are this or  is it going to be is it going to Bubble Up from   those types of leaders I think the most successful  individuals are the ones who are going to earn the   right through success in the organization and so  they're they're going to step in the the ones and   and again going to the the the individuals Tom  interviewed they are leaders who just stepped   into the void stepped into the Gap and made it  happen now what the what the executives in the   organization need to do to be most successful is  recognize that and give those people that autonomy   so focus on how do I enable my star players to  step up and drive that sort of change I think I   I really do very much agree with with Tom's point  if if you go into a bunch if you've got all these   cxos in the technology space and go all right you  you you and you you now all report to that person   and they're the super tech leader that's just a  recipe for disaster yeah yeah what you often find   is that you know these people move around from  one company um to another a lot and people like   Sean McCormack and and sastri der Russell at Tia  have said uh sorry I don't want that job you're   offering me unless you can make it a little bit  more comprehensive yeah right add some some tech   functions I don't want to be competing with a  chief data officer so um I'm more than happy   to have that person reporting to me and I respect  them and and they'll do well under my leadership   but I'm not going to have a separate role for  it all right do you think in a couple of years   that it'll be one of those things where this is  just common common for every company and we you   know are we doing a little bit of Naval gazing  right now um or is is is this something that   that a company's going to be constantly looking  at especially as new other Technologies come out   and you know there's the the tendency to create  a new position based on whatever technology comes out I think did I stump you guys I couldn't have  stumped you guys that's was my last question try   trying to be uh diplomatic about this there you  go um I think there will be some organizations   that hear this and and say all right let's  put a super tech leader let's create the   super tech leader role without really thinking  about what do you have to do to change to a to   make that role successful yeah so we we'll slap  us super tech leader in there and that'll fix   everything well no if you had organizational  challenges before that prevented those type   of people surfacing or even being successful  in the organization then slapping that roll   in is not going to make that person successful  you really need to think about how do I enable   talented connectors these orchestrators to  be the most effective in the organization   and just putting the roll in is not going to  do that yeah yeah and and and Tom this is more   a thing for large companies too right like if  if you're at a smaller midsize company you're   probably watching this going I do 20 of these  things anyway I'm already the Super Chief and   it doesn't really matter what my title is right  yeah particularly I think most of those things   would fall under the CIO in a small company  um but I think unfortunately you know in small   companies you tend to find that the cios are a  little less sort of you know business innovators   and a little more you know keep the keep the  lights on yeah so um that wouldn't be as likely   that You' combine all these capabilities under  under one person anyway right I mean the key is   that whoever is in the this um Consolidated role  that they recognize the importance of data and   information security and analytics and digital  um you know interfaces to the customer and and   so on and you know that that takes a special type  of person I think yeah all right guys again some   fascinating topics here uh especially in that in  that CIO world in the sea level um space so uh   again thanks for for joining us on the show  today and um uh you know have a great day I   guess you too thanks for having thank you all  right that's all the time we have for today's   episode be sure to like the video subscribe to  the channel and add any thoughts you have below   join us every week for new episodes of today in  Tech I'm Keith Shaw thanks for watching [Music]

2025-01-25 21:15

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