THD 89 Dinaburg Technologies C2S Speakers Active Driver with a Passive Ring Radiator Explained
foreign [Music] everybody Dave Lindberg in Hong Kong with another episode of the THD podcast today we have a company from the States called dinnerberg technology and as I always like to do I pontificate on what it is so I believe it's a technology where they have a passive and driver in plane so for things where you can't put a passive on the back like maybe ceiling speakers or in-car door speakers this might be the solution so let's let's get into the meeting them and we'll find out about that but before we forget let's remember the ulti association our sponsor so be sure to check out their website and it's a great Organization for networking within the audio industry so we encourage you to get involved with them but today we got a big panel of people joining us uh so we have uh Mike clasco in the Bay Area with uh Menlo scientific hi Mike how you doing hey Dave all right and Roger Shively in the Seattle area he's got his flying his flag behind him there so shy Lee Acoustics International uh yes good afternoon Roger how are you hello hi Dave how you doing good all right and Simon Weston in Japan uh good morning to you Simon how are you very good night thank you all right and the uh the the man of the hour here Simon dynberg in uh the state somewhere where are you Simon now let's Texas Dallas Texas all right so uh dinenberg Technologies uh so yeah maybe Simon dynaberg why don't you uh introduce yourself thank you Dave uh for providing a platform for us being able to spread awareness about our company our journey and our big idea hello my name is Simon dynaberg and I'm am one of the founders of dynabrook Technologies dynamook is a technology startup focused on evolution of sound we have developed a new speaker technology that helps achieve big sound from a smaller package when compared to Conventional passive radiator or poor design today I'm looking forward to discuss the benefits and advantages of our technology with help of Roger Shively and Michael classical who have been our guides and mentors when it comes to navigating this space thank you all right unique approach go go on go on sorry okay sorry um our unique approach to packaging a passive radiator not only optimizes the possibility response but also harnesses the back wave energy from a loudspeaker diaphragm more efficiently greatly enhancing the active driver performance this is primarily achieved using our patented concentric coplanar stabilizer or c2s technology how we call it which is basically a passive radiator concentric to an active cone driver with additional benefits that cannot be achieved without the c2s technology our company goal is to provide audio product developers and manufacturers with Competitive Edge let's dive in Dave all right that sounds like a head full for me hopefully some of these Tech guys have digested that but yeah let's get into a presentation technology the Dyna Board of technology is a big Sound small footprint the sound is a physical phenomenon it's creation design and development must admit to the physical laws of nature Michael dynaberg this is the gentleman who originally came up with this idea my father is a physicist by trade and he spent probably last 20 years trying to convince me industry and everybody else that uh the simple idea he he put together actually have a lot of benefits which we've been trying to prove for the last five years trying to utilize uh most advanced uh comes on multi-physics approach what are the c2s benefits compared to traditional passive radiator the way we would like to think about it uh we are in a way standing on the shoulders of the Giants and we're just trying to take what already exists and improve it the benefits uh which we were able to prove through testing and console are lower Distortion extended frequency range greater efficiency when it comes to power consumption simpler packaging when you compare it to passive radiator or a pork design you have a single acoustic Center better dispersion and pattern control and better physical linearity of the sound uh one of the questions we were asked uh during this journey what is the marketplace for this technology and one of the things we had to prove and confirm through prototyping and console multi-physics that technology scales because at the end of the day we're using the same driver and the same passive radiator which been used by technology for over 50 years and they scale depends on what the product is required and today we know with the certainty that this approach can be used in portable devices Automotive airspace headphone architectural or put it blindly any design where today you would use the passive port or passive radiator you can use a c2s technology all right I'm going to pass Botana at this point probably to Mike to let him speak a little bit and then we can go to Roger shivley and we can dive in a little bit of more technical data all right so so basically a lot of people look at this and say I've seen a passive ring radiator before uh isn't it obvious how did these guys get a patents but there's a half a dozen other claims in the patent for a secondary and third order effects that are optimized in this design uh there's some things that go on behind the baffle that keep things more uh laminar and the pressure axiosymmetric that is to say that if you have an odd shaped High aspect ratio box and or passive radiator that's on one side or the other uh you're likely to get some rocking in the driver and some rocking in the passive radiator and having the passive radiator axiosymmetric the coupling with the cone and uh the pressure behind the baffle uh gets rid of some lossy effects uh there's another benefit to a passive ring radiator and that's to say the um pattern control at the lower end of the mid-range is a little bit better controlled uh and if you have a small box and with a small speaker where the driver has a relatively extended bandwidth then there's a lot of stuff from inside the box that's going to come through the port and have calm filter effects the passive ring radiator acts as a band pass where the thickness and its characteristics will drop off some of the crap from inside the box so there's many many of these side effects that going through the patent they have benefits that you hadn't anticipated that actually show up in console measurements and show up in oralization uh not just in the physical measurements but they're perceived in listening and this is when I hand the torch over to Roger who did that testing okay all right so just a question before you start Roger so when you talk about this axiometric and rocking is that for the lay person is that kind of just in general like rub and Buzz with a more complicated moving masses going on with the passive plus the driver is that well let me just say axial symmetric means that every radii the coupling to the passive radiator is equidistant and the phase is the same and the pressure is the same and the distance is the same just just so things are more closer to what we do and expect and when you have a passive radio on the back or the side of the pressure that goes on in the box is a little different and it loads the edge of the diaphragm and this around a little bit and when it's exactly concentric um things are just better behaved without some sort of weird side effects that you have to worry less about okay all right sorry Roger jump in no no it's okay um good question is jump in with questions the that's the best part so um I guess this is yeah this is from uh the slides that uh Simon's got there and this is some of the data that came out of uh the console comparison to a traditional passive Radiator in this this passive radiator um that we're comparing it to is one with a passive radiator it has a consistent same size of surface area surface dimension um but it has to be placed on the back side of a box as opposed to one that's concentric and in the same plane essentially as the the active driver and so that's what you were talking about earlier how do you package something that goes into a ceiling and has a passive radiator to get some of the benefits of a passive radiator or put that into a car door for that matter and uh that's that's the benefit here this is showing on axis now that may be enough for some to see that there's a difference but in general it's it's a subtle difference um if we go and see what's going on off axis between the two then you'll see some in benefits here and you know why do I focus on off axis is because in the home or the business installation for say a ceiling or a wall speaker you're never on Axis or rarely on access and likewise in a car which in case you're never on access and so when we're looking for uh you know an improved sound experience something that's full band and that has a very smooth off axis response essentially a smooth power acoustic power response so that wherever we are we're getting a very similar experience is important for us to get the qualities and in this case on the right hand side you see the response of a traditional rear firing passive radiator versus the dinoburg solution on the left side there and this is showing I guess all the way from 20 to 10K it's good and you can see that when you get to the Dina Berg up in the higher frequencies uh in the 6K 4K range you start to see that it's broadening out um in between 0 to 60 degrees and that is what does actually happen there's the measurements that we've had made of some prototypes show that and and the other part of the experience as Mike said uh there and when you listen to it whether it's through this simulation which we have done but actually with the prototypes that were built off of the simulation you'll actually hear on access and off access improvements that you can walk to 60 degrees off axis and get something that's very similar to lawn access versus something that doesn't have that with a passive radiator and so one of the things so we see it's happening we know it's happening we're hearing it that is happening we were starting to wonder why and understanding the technology behind it and that's why we we built the the console model to begin with I think it's the 6K hurts that stands out the most is there's a big rear lobe on a traditional passive radiator and not on the C2 is um what's the mechanism of that is that passive radiator rear facing is it generous it is yeah I could actually show you some of the modeling here in a sec and you'll see that yeah it is rear facing and so if you stuck it that into an installation then you would lose it um completely because all the the benefit is from the back and so in this case there is no rear firing radiator for the site the the dinoburg alignment and so it's all forward facing and then what I could show and I might do that if it's okay Dave if I I switch screens here okay so I'm going to share my screen okay so this is a sort of a picture of the construction so what I'll do is I'll I'll kind of give you an overview of it here real quick there it is what it looks like this is the design um the center is an active three inch and the outer portion of it is a is the passive radiator and that is a six and a half inch and so and initially when we started working with the Simon the the design was a much larger size and we just we did model that just to understand it but we didn't have any real prototypes to compare it to and when you're doing a simulation you really want to validate your model in some way and so we went and picked the standard size of a six inch diameter you know woofer that you could fit into a into an installation whether it's a ceiling or a wall or even a door but that's the mounting footprint and so what we did is built it into that in the six with the three inch active driver in the center and the passive radiator there and that's the the data that we we generated in console to compare it to but we also compared that to you know an active three inch with the rear passive radiator and that's the the model that we have but if I show you this real quick run so you can kind of get a feel for the inside dimensions that we have going on there um let me quickly advance to some other pictures of this so this is what was modeled in concept where you have the outer ring interactive and then you have this device here which is a phase ring in a sense because you have back wave energy coming around interfering here and coming back and re-combining with the outer ring and what part of the design optimization that we went through in the model was to figure out one the optimal size this is a 2.6 liter enclosure for a woofer application and we were able to you know improve that with the passive ring radiator here but you could also add one to the back as as Simon was also saying you know where does that come from that the comparison is to a passive radiator mounted on the back side and in this case the other optimization was the length of this phase ring where you know when there's a back wave combining and coming around how what's the optimal length of that to have the combination to be you know constructive as opposed to deconstructive the actually here's the model I'll go through these quickly because that's and this is where we calibrated the model and so we come to the you know the on access response of the dynaberg one and we can show you some of the things that go on inside uh here quickly I'll go into some you know Sideshow here's the phase ring again and you can see it lowers this is 450 600 we'll skip up to the higher frequencies of 800 you start to see what's going on here you see a phase uh null going on and at 1200 and 1600 and then as you get into the four thousand six hundreds we start to see this type of behavior inside the box and we can in some ways start to see the correlation to why we're getting more cohesive or coherent uh combination of the the off access for the the mid-band high frequencies because we're getting this back wave that is contributing to the passive radiator so it's actually contributing to the higher frequencies as opposed to what it would traditionally do is just help the low end so if we go into a uh you know this is the the ring radiator design you've got the with the pat with the passive on the back this case this three inch on the front the passive ring Radiator on the back as you can see this is that comparison curve that we saw earlier here again again on axis and we can take a look at the behavior side by side we'll skip this one because it's hard to keep your eyeballs on it but this is the same frequency points for the the rear radiator you can kind of see the outline of the Ring radiator the radiator back here with the active driver in the top this is 450 600 800 1200 and 1600 you can see that there's not much going on whereas in the dandenberg set up um there was something definitely going on we were contributing to the forward you know to the radiation on the front and here you see that we're seeing rear radiation at the best and then as we go in the higher frequency four 600 and so on you see that most of the radiation is is deconstructive or just useless inside the box and so we lose it so it doesn't really contribute to the high frequencies and then when we pull up that curve that we were looking at before you can see again and then hopefully that helps understand a little bit the differences in this this particular plot that you were asking about Simon a lot of it comes out the back and not to the front and um what's happening with the the passive ring radiator it's helping to make a constructive combination of the rear radiation from the three three inch active driver with the passive ring radiator and one of the things we did which I don't have here to show is and Mike mentioned it the the oralization portion of that once we had this design built for the the deanerberg alignment we did build up some prototypes and those things were actually available to listen to and there was you know the feedback on those listening experiences with the actual Parts was that this is you know the mid-range is so much clearer I see hear the voices better uh and I cannot in the off access response is very good in a lot of cases there seem to be less low frequency harmonic Distortion as well so that we had cleared up some of the mid band issues that that could happen or at least make it more cohesive and coherent and we wanted to be able to compare that to an identical version of of the passive radiator reading from the rear we just didn't have the materials to do that so what we did is took the output of the console model and put it into another tool we use from familiar Sonics which is available and we've used this in vehicle simulations before where we wanted to listen to a vehicle through headphones and through oralize with the head related transfer function I just took the results and put it into a room so we could listen to the two I don't have that to demonstrate but what we what he was talking about with the organization is we could go back and forth between them a b listen to it and then move the speaker off axis from 0 30 to 60. and those results were very impressive as well and they actually mimicked what people were Hearing in the the real time in a real product of the The Dana per one that you all you walk off axis and you've got a very good consistent experience basic understanding you imagine a passive radiator or a port for that matter you uh plunk this component into your speaker box and you get a an extra Peak at the low frequency somewhere slightly below the driver's frequency but what you're talking about mostly is uh its effects in the higher frequency range yeah the the difference that you saw on that the the on access response you see that Peak that goes up right and that's what you would expect with the port or a passive radiator but what's happening here is that we and and when I first started the modeling I'd never listened to this part I never experienced this part I just did the modeling to see what would happen and when you think about it in a very lumped parameter way all you think that's going to happen is the port or the passive radiator experience which you just talked about and what we discovered is that there's something more going on above that in in the primarily it's in the mid-range frequencies that we're hearing it and that contributes to a lower harmonic Distortion so as well as a fundamental Improvement on the fundamental frequencies in the mid-range as well and so that's what we've discovered and we took away the the phase ring and looked at it and so to see what its effects were and it was pretty significant also but uh you still got the improved off axis but you didn't have it optimized so when you put the phase ring back into the model and start playing with this height you then get this ability to fine-tune and make that off axis response like it is here or decide what you want it to be to be honest you could change that by changing that design but that's the essence of it we saw a lot of mid-range changes and you could see that with the phase relationship inside the box that we just showed earlier and that's that's exactly the benefits that we're seeing we're not only getting the effort the effect of a base response improvement with the port or the base you know passive radiator that you would traditionally find but you also get this Improvement in the mid-range and the off-axis response I'm gonna say saying that the same thing but looking at instead of the basic electric circuit analogy where you look at the speaker as an electrical filter at low frequencies now you're looking at everything more pneumatically or fluidically of how air is the gas is moving around what's the laminar inside the enclosure even that's sort of a DC way of looking at it and the effect of radiating of the speaker is better behaved as you go down a little bit lower in frequency it acts with a passive ring radiator acting axial symmetric and equidistant it's sort of controls the pattern a little bit lower so the off axis response and the power response doesn't change as rapidly there's all these second and third order effects that are good using this stuff that won't show up in something like leap or something because it's not looking at at the air transmission both propagation and distance and phase and and pressure and variable stiffness at each radii because of the box and what's behind the box but all of it is improving it and so it's not just a a passive flat ring but there's a lot of other things in the way the speaker couples into the room in the front and the way it it's better behave for Less spurious anomalies in its butt yeah and that's kind of the first thing that occurred to us when we were modeling is you know we thought well this is just a ported or a passive radiator model and that's a one-dimensional uh lumped parameter model than it did on axis it behaved that way and then you start to see the effects of the mid-bange in you know with the Box enclosure and this is something that happens a lot you have to concern yourself where you're mounting this in a car or you're mounting it in a in a wall or a ceiling and you have to worry about those boundaries and what it turns out is you have to worry less because the off-axis response is better but and we didn't know that until we did the three-dimensional modeling this take case taking some you know advantage of some of the axisymetrics portions of it and started to see that there is this effect in the mid-range that we didn't anticipate because you don't get that in a long parameter model you have to actually see the the physics going on inside the Box let me clarify things even to Roger it's what he's saying is there's a difference between friends and Friends with Benefits [Laughter] there you go and some of the measurements that were taken also you can see and I think I may have some I could show you here in a second in terms of things that other other things that we we care about the the the phase alignment you know and the the THD there there are definite benefits in the design you you get a very concentric uh Center of acoustic Center here and so you don't see a lot of the you know the things that happen when you have two radiating surfaces where the phase don't doesn't align and you get these delay issues between the two two radiating surfaces so it has those benefits for that very reason because it's it is concentric and it in Practical terms it is uh planar even though you do get an effect of the cone it acts a little bit like a horn as well and you can scale this that's one of the things that did happen we started out with a much larger model and just shrunk it down to something that seemed to be most efficient for a six inch mounting Arrangement that but it can take it down to uh you know the the earbud size or anywhere in between well that's one of the beautiful things we did this year we cooperated with Peter Larson who builds the fine Circle software and we were able to integrate the c2s technology into the fine Circle this just gives the ability for the engineers when they Tinker with their next project to be able to go and see you know what will this option work for me based on whatever parameters I have and they literally can see apple to Apple if they want to have a port or if they want to have a passive radiator or if this technology May land and deliver them a better product as the end result okay so after the uh the technical Let's uh like I think some people that might be considering to implement this in their products so uh if we're combining basically two so if it was a system that had a passive radiator obviously there could be some Bill of material savings um in a ported system probably not so much but where where are we going to find some efficiencies on the commercial side like how how are we gonna how are we gonna we've got we've got something better okay now and now uh where where does it fit in in the commercial side of things is there any and also how far are we towards uh going to mass production we are working on couple strategic agents for in-house installation for Hi-Fi sound for movie theaters and um the similar version of the same driver will be used for commercial space because you don't need to over achieve 20 000 Hertz just because there is no need for it pretty much we're hoping that in the next months or so we will have production ready ready to go units which will be able to send to some potential customers to show the case what technology capable of doing and at the same time we're experimenting with multiple verticals at the same time uh Roger is helping us to understand the best way to implement this technology in automotive we're working with few potential clients and trying to explain to them the benefits of this technology and something like a headphone driver because potentially you cannot install the port or plastic Radiator in your headphone design but you're still generating the backwife energy it's it's there one way or another this just gives you a better way to to capture that and and use it as a benefit versus trying to fight with it and get a bit of it and we can we we explore in few strategic Partnerships and entertaining questions from potential licenses let's put it this way okay so the basic strategy is to go where it's impossible to put a passive somewhere else on the quote-unquote box or a port and if you focus on that where there is no competition it sounds like it's a good pathway for a business um okay um so anything else that we need to add to or questions from Simon Weston we'll see how we go nothing for now for now uh Roger uh do you have anything to add uh no other than um the the potential for it is just like you said and it is very scalable as as Simon was also pointing out so one of the the benefits say for exclusively for automotive but he also for the audit the home install is the fact that it can be packaged in a way and especially if you take the six inch you know and it's only a A 2.6 liter box that fits right into the the wall mounting that you would typically run into and it also fits into a car mounting so um one of the things we would like to do is demonstrate that put that together and you know there are two different things that you're talking about there one has an environmental impact for the cars so you have to look at whether it's going to survive that so one of the next steps is to make sure that the bill of material is not only what you expect it to be but it's also Automotive grade and you know anticipate those issues and nothing in this is exotic it's it's not exotic materials it's a new approach and a new idea so that is straightforward I think all the materials are genuinely transferable to Automotive grade and no problem and you know the weight is also going to be less because you're not using the same size driver to get the same effects okay yeah all right Mike any uh any random comments you'd like to throw in as you're always good at yeah well I mean you know one of the benefits if you take the case that Roger describes you go with a smaller speaker then the um Power response will be better and like in sailing speakers you can space them further apart on the other hand one of the benefits is the mechanical depth of the speaker will be net shower as Roger was mentioning uh when you go to a smaller speaker it's less deep and and then a lot of the alignments that work with this end up needing less back volume and then you have the potential of using a meta material like this end-based stuff that Apple uses that lets you half the back volume so you could sort of shrink wrap the speaker uh with Dina Burke but it also acoustically means you don't have to EQ to get that bass back in so you have very shallow installs with very endless speakers in the room because they have wider and smoother off axis response so all these things add up uh but also this all applies to personal audio in a car where you use headrest audio and now you have you know good low end to the passive ring radiator you have a very shallow product that fits into uh both you know Electro acoustically but also physically into a headrest and stuff so there's there's a lot of places where this really is a silver bullet for a half a dozen reasons um that have great potential yeah the point that Mike just made about headrest is you know say I put this in the door maybe I don't need an enclosure in the door someone says but in a headrest I'm going to need an enclosure in some of these applications you definitely need to have an enclosure because you can't live in the space that it's existing in subwoofers are one of them usually so you know if there has to be an enclosure this is a better approach to it for that reason and if you can put a you know a form factor that fits into the door as an enclosure that's very shallow already which we do today in many applications then we're better off at this approach as well so yeah and with headrest audio the if you're using say a six a five inch frame with a three inch speaker uh then the frame can be without punched windows and now you have a modular approach that's cost effective and very shallow that the car manufacturers like to see modules um all right okay Simon donnenberg any last words Before We Say Goodbye I think the back idea the big idea I want to leave you guys with is that this design is have a lot of potential and time will show how far they will go is just about how much imagination we have that's pretty much it but there is a lot of areas where this technology can go in and help to improve the future products let's put it this way all right okay well I thank all these guys for joining us today so everybody like subscribe share uh wherever you're watching this or listening to this and uh we'll see you all in the next episode thanks guys thank you thank you thank you very much
2023-09-09 21:20
