Tech Talk - Supercapacitors for Hydrogen Applications - Ultracapacitors Explained - Hyfindr Honing
Are they really the fastest and most powerful storage for electrical energy that you can get? Today we are going to talk about supercapacitors, what people call super caps. What's so special about that material? 4000 farads drinkable. So, nail polish remover. Nail polish remover. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Welcome to Hyfindr Tech Talks. Here we look at the technology that makes the hydrogen economy work. My name is Steven. And today I am joined by Dennis, who is an electrical engineer and has been dealing with supercaps for over ten years. You've built applications with
them and you work for AEP Hybrid Power a company that specializes in actually putting the right combination of different kinds of energy sources together for solutions. This is correct, right? Thank you. Yes, yes. Welcome. And thank you for making it all the way from the Netherlands to here. And let's start with the basics. So, Dennis, what is a super cap? So just to explain
a bit more about what the supercap is, I would like to go back to a conventional capacitor. Yes. A conventional capacitor is working in a way that you have two plates, and the capacity is depending on the surface of the plate on one hand and also the distance between the plates. So you want to have the biggest surface and the smallest distance between the plates to have the biggest capacity as possible. Okay. So no one invites the electrical engineer without
getting an electrical diagram. And I see you have one here. So can you take us through this? You showed the plates? Yes. So these are the plates that we were talking about. And, in a circuit, you always need a voltage source. Yes, yes. That could be, for instance, a battery. Yes. You put a positive and negative charge to it, to the plate. And what happens?
The negative ions will flow into the positive plate. And the, on the other side, you will have a shortage of ions. So you get a positively charged. And so basically the ions flow over here. What is a dielectric? What is that? The dielectric is the, between the two plates that they put like, a dielectric material. Okay. To make sure that you have a little bit better. Yeah, permittivity of.. Okay. So it's a special kind of material, which you obviously need for that. And the bigger the plates. So that's the bit of a formula there to show. Okay. Area dependent.
And so basically ions piling up here. And when you take away the power they are still there. And they will create a current okay. Exactly. So now that is the basic capacitor. But what is now a super capacitor. And I know sometimes you talk about ultra capacitors even. So what does that mean? So with a conventional capacitor we talk about Milli, Microfarads. Yes, yes. And with a super capacitor, you talk about, several, thousands of Farad, so it's million times bigger. So what in principle, the technology is a little bit different, but it is also comparable
to, the capacitor. And the supercapacitor. They have made the surface as big as possible, as you can see here. Yes. And they do it with, activated carbon. It's a very porous material. And this creates the very large, surface of the electrode. Yes. Then, super cap has also an electrolyte. Yes. With a separator in between. Which makes them also an electric double layer capacitor. That's the technical name of it. So in principle you have two capacitors in one housing. what happens if you put this. These are the plates.
You put a positive charge in a negative charge on it. Then the ions will start to flow. And what happens? You will create here a small capacitor and here also a capacitor. So therefore, the explanation of electric double layer capacitor. Okay. So that means you have basically like a capacitor set up at this side. And a capacitor set up at this side,
which is essentially that. And is my understanding correct that by using these carbon coatings also you increase the surface area. So it's just a rough kind of surface which is more surface area obviously, than a flat surface. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And also here the distance is very small between the positive and negative. Yeah. So therefore, yeah you get a very high
capacity okay. And now you, you keep showing us these diagrams when I know that the capacitors when you actually bring them. And I thank you for bringing one. They are actually round. So how does that work? Yeah. That's also shown in this picture. you have these plates, with a positive and negative and a separator in between. And they are like rolled up, like a film that is rolled up. Okay. To create a lot of layers inside because each layer is very thin. And, yeah,
that's also needed to get this amount of capacity. So that means every, every film layer here is basically this. And then they are rolled up. But is it one long roll or is it just repeating in concentric circles? It's one long roll. One long roll. And where are the ends? You know? So is this one end of the roll and this is the other end of the roll, or is this connected to every roll, basically every rotation or every circle or whatever you call it.
So, in principle, if you can see here, yeah, you have the positive separator and the negative. This is rolled up. Yeah. So all the positives are brought to one pole and all the negative parts of the electrode is to the other side. To the other side. Okay. Yeah. You see plus and minus there. Okay. So they are all connected. Okay. So I know that, so one cell, it says here has three volts. Okay. And I know that you actually specialize also in putting these things in modules. So how does that work in a module? Exactly. So yeah, normally in
an application you want to have a large a voltage. Yeah. Yeah. To make it usable. Yes. So, one cell, three volt is very small. Yeah. So you need to connect them in series to get to higher voltage levels. Okay. Okay. I actually.. One thing I wanted to ask, and I'm sorry for skipping back there is, before we get to the actual series, it's just a little bit again, about the inside, of the actual chemistry. So what actually, what is this material? And why would ions do that? Can I use any material? Can I just use wood or what? You know, like, what's so special about that material? This is a material, which is also, of course, continuously developing. Yeah. Because, you want to have a good conductivity inside, so that the ions can flow easily because this is also creating a resistance inside the capacitor.
So the better the the conductivity inside, the better, the lower the resistance of the capacitor. But you need it also to ionize. Okay. But what material is it? Does it have a name or? It's comparable to nitrile. Yeah. So, it's comparable to, to nail remover. So, nail polish remover. Nail polish remover. Exactly. Right okay. Okay. Good. Okay. So then now with the nail polish remover, and one cell and we've got it. So coming back to modules and, I see you even brought one here. So in this case we have multiple of these as far as I see. So how does it work when you actually want to put these in modules?
Yeah. So, we connect these cells like I mentioned before, we connect all these cells in series. Yes. To get to higher voltage levels. But due to small internal, tolerances of each cell. Because they are never 100% exact. Yes. Always. One is 3100 Farad, one is 3050 Farads. Right. So there are small deviations. Yeah. And what happens if you put them all in series?
You charge them then you get deviations in voltage levels. Okay. Okay. Because voltage is a quite critical part of a super capacitor. You do never want to have it overcharged. And also for the longer time. So for the lifetime of the super cap, you want to have them as equal as possible. So, yeah. To make them all each also on an equal level. So what we do is we have a balancing and monitoring of each cell. So each individual cell is being checked on the voltage level. Yes. And our monitoring system of AP makes
sure that each cell is charged. Okay. With the same voltage. So why don't we just go ahead and have a look at that a little bit? Let me see if I can move this around. And, just get this also a little bit more into the camera. Yeah. So yeah. So basically just what we see here, I mean we can see it on this side. They are they all have two ends like this one.
Yeah. And one end is popping up. Yeah. Plus and a minus. And one end is popping up here. And the at the bottom, the two ends are connected with the plate. Yeah. Exactly. And we can see down there. Yeah. So it's a serial connection of each cell. So. Yeah. There are 48 cells in the module. Yeah. And the plus is being connected to the next minus. And then the other plus is connected to the next minus. Okay. So it's in serial connection okay. So when we look at the top here I mean I think what we can see here, is so which two are these two connected at the bottom. These two will be connected at the bottom right. Yeah. Exactly. So and I mean,
from the simple view of it, why do you have more going on here than just a simple connection? What is this? And can you take us through that? Yes, yes. So, each two cells are connected, here to this balancing board. Yes. The middle point of these cells are connected to the display. So we know exactly what the voltage is on one cell and what the voltage is on the other cell. So this here is connected to the bottom plate. And in this way you know the current between.
The voltage in between. And so obviously the current voltage on this one here and the current voltage on this one here okay. And there's your measuring elements there. And so okay. Yeah. And we know exactly what the voltage is. This is sent to a central device. Yes. And we can decide. Okay. This cell has more charge than the other cells. Yeah. So
please discharge this cell a bit to make it in line with the other cells. Okay. And then the information of this then I would assume probably goes to a central unit here. Okay. And who takes the decision? Is the decision taken here or is it here or does it go to some central system? Yeah. So to go a little bit deeper. Yeah. The weight how AP is balancing the cells
is on three levels. Yeah. One on cell level. And so what you see here is a balancing board on each cell. Yes. the voltage and temperature is being measured. Then from these cells all information of these cells is collected in an MMU we call it. Yeah, it's a central device of a module. Yes. So the MMU is controlling all the cells inside this module. This one module. Yes. And then we bring a signal out from this module with optical plus to and MCU. Then you have your optical connectors here. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that goes in
there. So then you also have a good isolation. So we also use these modules in higher voltage systems. And you want to have a good electrical isolation in your communication system. So we use, their optic coplers. Okay. Nevertheless they do. This gets its power from there. Or there's a separate power supply for this? No, each module is creating its own power. So they don't need a separate power supply. Okay, so okay. And with that, it's enough power to send
out the optical signal. Yeah, it's it's a light signal. So on the other end, we receive this light signal, and then we know what is happening inside. Okay. So you're balancing each cell like this. Is it very similar to the battery management system kind of or? It's comparable because a battery system is also made out of smaller cells. Yeah. So the same happens here. Only the way of, of treating a super cap is different than a battery. So and the, the inside,
the real electronics is a bit different than a normal battery. Okay. So it's a management system. So is it okay if you say the way is a bit different. So I mean okay so you mentioned the temperature and essentially the voltage. And you have the ability to, to balance that out. So a module like this you know how much power or what does it contain if I can ask
that way. Yeah I mean we saw this one here is 3000 Farad. Yeah. Yeah. So this how much would that be? To explain that, I would like to show you also, the different technologies that there are, the most used technologies that are in the market. Yeah. Because the super cap is often used for power applications. Okay. If you look at the capacitor. Then the ultra capacitor can store
energy, but it's less than compared to batteries or fuel cells. Still it has much more capacity than conventional capacitors. So it's somewhere in between. And usually what we see is that, a supercapacitor can be very interesting, technology for capturing regenerative energy or for applications where you need very high power for during a short time. Because the big advantage of ultra caps is that you can charge them and discharge them with the same power. And they have a very low internal resistance. And therefore they can deliver a lot of power. So very quickly. They can release it instantaneously, much quicker than even a than a battery. Okay. So, so what kind of applications need that kind of energy basically.
Yeah. You can imagine, for instance for stabilizing a DC grid. Yes. Okay. And where you have a high cyclic load. Yes. And you have energy sources that cannot follow this, this, this dynamic load. Yes. Yeah. There super caps can be very, very good technology to use. Okay. To understand. Okay. And just going back to this diagram here. Here we have energy density versus power density okay. So this means how much energy am I storing per
kilo. So per weight. So there you have okay. Batteries higher. And I mean fuel cells okay. When they convert from hydrogen also higher. The supercapacitor in terms of energy density is lower but seems to be much, much higher. And this is a logarithmic scale. Yeah.
Now in terms of power density. So yes. So I do not have to carry much weight to have a lot of power. But it's for a short time. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it really depends on the application what the best technology source is. Okay. And this is, this is, well, but this is like a rocket. Yeah. Anybody ever thought about building a rocket with this? I mean, if you need a lot of power for a short time. Yeah. I mean, ever thought about that at AEP Hybrid Power? We are not into a rocket or space application yet. Okay. But I know that they are also used for,
for aviation and also for space technology because of the big benefits that they have, they can work with a very big, temperature window. Yeah. -40 to plus 60 degrees. They also have millions of cycles, and they can last for maybe 10 to 20 years in a, in an application. So. Okay. Okay, Dennis, we've seen this now. So having understood this, what is a typical application where we would see a Super Cap module like this one for example. Yeah I would like to show you first and a diagram of a typical system where you can combine a super cap with a fuel cell and with the battery. Okay. This is an example of a load where you have what you have here on the left side. So there can be an, a big motor or it can be the grid. Okay. And you have a system with a fuel cell. So here's the load here AC, DC converters okay. Yeah okay.
So this all works on DC obviously. Yes. Exactly. You have the fuel cell which doesn't have a stable output voltage with the AC DC converter. Yes. Created into a DC grid a DC link. Yes. But this fuel cell can never follow the load on the output side. Yes. So you need to have some energy storage in between. Yes. If you talk about big applications, then you can imagine. Yeah, you want to have, for the short big power peaks. Yes. Use the
super caps. And for the longer, power, peaks of, let's say a couple of hours. Yeah, yeah. You can take the batteries. This is a typical application where you can have also the three, different sources installed. Combined. Combined. We have built an ultra cap system, for this application. I would like to show you this is a very big crane. One megawatt can take of power. And yeah. This, only has to hoist a load and then lower it. And this is a movement of about half a minute. If you would do that with batteries, you would get a very big and expensive system.
Yes. Doing this with the super caps, you can build it in a very small container cabinet. Here is an example where we have, included a supercapacitor system inside a cabinet with a DC-DC converter. Another converter part, so we can do also the complete, yeah, interface of a system to make a complete, working propulsion system. Okay. Well, but this is beautiful. I mean, because this, this is obviously going up and down, up and down, up and down, up and down. And, I think you mentioned sometime that it can do.. That a supercapacitor is is happy to do millions of cycles. Yeah, exactly. Whereas batteries tend to get a bad mood after a while.
Okay. So that means that the Super cap can take the up and down of the crane. Yeah. And then the batteries will obviously help with a longer power supply, or the lighter. And then the fuel cell is the basic, power of energy on the vessel. Okay. Wow. So this is a great example. And, so what is the cost when we look at all this, you know? So, are super caps expensive? Are millions being built already? Yeah. Can you give us a perspective there? Yeah,
if you look at this application where you need it for a couple of seconds. Yes. There super caps can be much cheaper, if you mount them in a system than compared to batteries. If you go for a larger system, then you need to have so many capacitors inside. Then, maybe another technology like a battery is cheaper. So you really need to do a good engineering. Yeah. Look at the application. What is the power profile? And, Yeah. How
can we solve it with, super caps, combination of super caps with battery fuel cell or only, super caps with a fuel cell. So, okay. That means that a super cap can help make the battery so much smaller that it becomes so much cheaper that it's absolutely paying for itself. Kind of. So if you engineer it right. You can save a lot of money on batteries. Okay. By using super caps. Okay. Wow. So that means, that this has great potential. Can you give us a bit of an
outlook? Where is this going? What are you seeing? Yeah. In terms of also the hydrogen economy with the super caps. Yeah. So, what we see is on the one hand, because of the electrification. Yes. More loads are becoming electric. Yes. Creating a lot of peaks on the other end, we have the renewable energy sources, that are slow in response times. Yeah. To ramp
up the power. And there super caps can be a very good technology for the future. So I see a big, future for super caps to use them there. And I even have a small present for you. I took a capacitor here. This is the only supercapacitor that you can drink because there's beer inside. Okay. Wow, this is nice. You see, they have this size of a popular, don't drink. Thank you very much. By AEP Hybrid Power. Okay. Enjoy it. 4000 Farad.
Drinkable. Okay. Now, I'm all flattered. Thank you very much, Dennis, for making it all the way here. This has been super interesting. I hope that you have enjoyed this video as well, like we did. If you did, please subscribe. Or actually,
you could even like this video and go to Hyfindr.com where you can find this kind of materials and other things which are related to the hydrogen economy, which will make the hydrogen economy work better and faster. And as we learned, if you engineer it right, then it's even cheaper. Thank you very much for watching I hope you watch another video. Thank you very much for coming, Dennis. Have a wonderful day. Thank you.
2024-07-28 09:14
