Tech Talk - Hydrogen On Tank Valves - Hydrogen Components Testing Machine - Hyfindr Harhoff

Tech Talk - Hydrogen On Tank Valves - Hydrogen Components Testing Machine - Hyfindr Harhoff

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And this would be at the other end  of the tank. They are also made so   safe you could literally shoot a gun  at them. Both is important because   you want to shorten the filling time. Yeah  exactly, but not only the German one, yes.  How do you make a valve sitting on a  hydrogen tank? Absolutely safe. What  

specs do you need to know when choosing an on  tank valve? Today, we're going to look at on   tank valves. Welcome to Hyfindr Tech Talks.  My name is Steven and today I'm joined by a   mechanical engineer who has been an expert in  super high pressure areas, 6000 bar upwards. And I think recently has I would say  lowered himself into the pressures we   use in the hydrogen economy. He is  a very seasoned man in that field,   works at Poppe + Potthoff, currently as  Director of Technology for the Hydrogen   Portfolio. Welcome Burkhard Harhoff. Hi  Steven, thank you for having me here. Burkhard, it's great that you're here  and you didn't come alone. You brought   something with you. What is this? Yeah, this  is a so called on tank valve for a 700 bar  

hydrogen system. And we have released that  now after passing the certification. Okay.   So this one's on the market is certified  and works. So let's delve right into this. Where do we find that? And I see you brought a  bit of a diagram here. We have a good picture   here to show the positioning of all the components  in the system. You see the long tanks here which   are placed here in the frame. These are, okay, we  have four tanks here. Yeah, we have four tanks.

And then. It can be also more or less, but  nevertheless, you normally have multiple tanks   and we have the on tank valve sitting here on the  top of the tank. And at the opposite of the tank,   we place a so called end plug TPRD, which is  also shown here. Yeah. So this is the one end. Yeah. And this would be at the other  end. Exactly. You must plug a tank on   both sides. On both sides. Okay. That's  the reason. It's like a German sausage   has two ends. Yeah, exactly. Yes. But  not only the German one. Yes. And you  

have a bit of a simulation here as  well to show that. Yes, exactly. We have here placed all the components we have  in the system. That are the on tank valves,   end plug TPRDs as a parallel charging unit and  also the high pressure regulation unit. Okay,   so these are the on tank valves  here. Yes, exactly. And the system   is fueled from this side. All right.  Okay. And if we look how it happens. Ah, yeah. You see how the fuel is coming  into parallel charging both cylinders.  

The cylinders or tanks here are slightly Without  any color to make it more visible. Yes. Yes, but   nevertheless you must imagine here could  also be a bigger tank, or more tanks.  Yeah, this is for visualization and what you  see here once again, how is it is fueled.   And the opposite way to go to the fuel cell is  also interesting. There it's going through the   high pressure regulation unit, which gives  you a pressure what the fuel cell needs. So you have 700 bar in the tank and need  10 bar, for example, for a fuel cell or 15,   20 bar for a PFI combustion engine.  Then this high pressure regulation unit  

regulates the pressure down. From the  pressure of what is in the tank. Okay,   so that's this part. Okay. I think we need  to talk about all this a little bit later. Let's focus on the actual on  tank valve. And so this lets out   the same pressure that's inside the  tank directly out. Can you tell us,   take us a little bit deeper? How does  this exactly work then? Yes. I have  

here an exploded view on the on tank valve  itself. So you see here the single components. So in principle, this is a function block of  different features. So we have the aluminum body   for sure. That's this blue part. That's the blue  part. Yes, exactly. And then we have the solenoid.   Yes. We have, the manual and the bleed valve, we  have the in and out, we have the so called TPRD.  

Yeah, and we have also inside the tank. The tank  is ending here, or the tank connection is here. We have the sealing, and we have  the temperature sensor, and nozzles,   and others. Okay, so this is the Temperature  sensor, this little one here, and this is where   the hydrogen will go into the tank. Exactly.  And what is this one? That is going out. Oh,   okay, So you have a different one for  coming in and another one for coming out. Okay, alright. Yeah. Important is we  have a temperature issue with hydrogen.   So hydrogen is behaving the opposite to other gases. So if hydrogen expands,  

it gets hot. So that means we have a type  four tank. That's a carbon fiber in a plastic   matrix. And that means you could damage, if  it gets too hot during the expansion process. There could be a damage at the cylinder,  and therefore we have here a special nozzle,   which divides the stream in different numbers  of streams. I think we can see that here,  

it's also very nicely done here. Okay, so  that's your way of solving that problem,   taking that spreading that a little bit. Exactly. Exactly. And so I know  from way back that actually,   we can't actually look inside it now  here, but just from a process perspective,   can you take us deeper? What flows are  we seeing here? Yeah. Yeah. There we   would like to go to the pneumatic plan  of the system, so the so called PID. PID. Okay. You see here the tank  bottle and different colors for  

the different flows. All right. We have at  the one side, the in and out, yeah, which is done via one pipe. Yeah. Going through a  10 micron mesh filter. Okay. Going through the   manual valve. So the manual and D12 are more  or less for repair or for maintenance issues.

Yeah. Okay. So those are these ones. Yeah,  exactly. You can close there. Yeah. Or you   can open the passes. Understood. Yeah.  And then it's going here through the   check valve and then to the nozzle. Into  the tank. Okay. So that is the refueling   now, it goes in here and this is  a valve in one, one direction. Yes, exactly. It closes if it comes  out, because the flow should be in one   direction. Then we have, if we need to,  if the fuel cell needs the hydrogen,  

we have again a filter. There are  two filters necessary because,   in front of every valve, there should be  a filter because there could be some dirt. Okay. In the gas. Should not be, but  could be. Could be, yeah. So you want   to be absolutely safe. You want to be  robust in the system. And that means   you need a filter there. And there's  a filter, then the excess flow valve,  

and then the solenoid valve. The solenoid valve  is the main block. It opens and closes the stream. And leads to a control opening of the  stream itself. That's this, right? Exactly,   and the signal comes from the control unit. Yeah,  okay, right here. It opens, yeah. So this is the   solenoid. Yeah, which goes directly to the control  system. In our case, it's a combined connection. This connection is also used for  the temperature measurement. But  

you are right. The ECU is controlling  the solenoid and the connections. Okay,   cool. Yes. Yeah. Then we have another pass. This  is the yellow one and this is going to the TPRD.   The TPRD is a safety feature, a thermal pressure  relief device, as it's called, and called out. And this only is in function if the temperature is  getting too hot. Okay. Okay. So this is basically,   it has direct access to the tank and will let out  the content. Exactly. So the reason for that is  

the possibility of fire. Yes. So you want to be  safe even if the temperature is going higher. Yes. So it's adjusted at 110 degree. And if  this. If the temperature in the system exceeds   over this 110 degrees, it opens , and it opens  to a vent. So that the hydrogen can flow to a  

safe point or to a safe point, on the street  or above the roof. This is very important. Also the defueling time. Yeah. Or the  emptying time of the tanks is very   important. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that means,  and would it empty almost faster than you could   refuel it or just about that? No, there are  certain geometric restrictions. Restrictions   in the construction. As I said, as fast as  possible, but that should not be too fast. There you have other challenges. Okay,  just to round this up. What? What is  

this part here? What are these? Yeah, that is  another port which you could use. For example,   if you want to adapt a pressure sensor, you  can use this port. You can use also as a live   port because the thermal pressure relief device  can also be used in other areas of the system. And you could use this port for doing this.  Or you can, if you don't need it, you can only   plug it. Okay. This is live port for measuring  temperature. Why, can you say again just why that  

is so important to measure the temperature? Yeah,  this live port is not measuring for temperature. The live port is measuring, or you could apply a  pressure sensor if needed. Ah, pressure sensor,   okay. Temperature is so important because of the  danger to getting too hot. Yes. Some customers   are using the temperature measurement at the  on tank valve. Others add an end plug TPRD,   so opposite of the tank and because it's  a little bit more stable to measure their   temperature. Yeah, so so this has some  advantages and we have also solutions  

for doing that. Because more and  more customers are demanding it. Yes, because this temperature sensor  is near at the outcome throttle. Yes,   and that means, there could be a deviation  between the real temperatures and the measured   temperature. Okay. And you want to avoid  that. That's clear. So now we've seen the  

inside works of this the PID.  Can you give us some guidance? What specs do we typically talk about when we  want to go out shopping for an on tank valve?   It's not so easy to go out shopping. I have here  only a rough overview about the regulation. It   depends a little bit in which market you  are delivering. For the stationary market,  

we have the so called MOTVs,  which we also could provide. They have a different regulation system.  Marine has, again, a different system,   and, yeah, for planes or for, it's also different. But we are talking about. Mobile applications  here, this is on tank Valve, and there I have  

put some regulations here into the table.  Yes, you see here material regulations,   which are calling out for the material specs  and especially are testing or they describe   the tests for yeah, mechanical properties  of the material under hydrogen atmosphere. There is a CHMC 1 in the U.S., there  is a ISO 11114, and there's also,   there are companies who create the standards  for this, for testing out this, for example,   TÜV. TÜV Süd. And if you look on  the component side. At present,  

we have the HGV 3.1 the R 134 and also it's  released one month ago or two months ago. That's the ISO 19887, yeah, which is putting all  this stuff together because at present we have   here the challenge that we have regional  norms. What you see is not all. In China, it's the GBT. In Korea, there's another  one and so on. And you have to.. Or  the challenge at present is to have. We  want to have one norm for all the regions. Okay. So basically you're saying  when you're going out shopping,   the first thing is to know what application,  what norm applies to my area. So if I'm running  

a truck in China, it's gonna be different  than when I'm running a truck in France.   For instance, right? Yeah. You have to  check according different regulations. What other things? Are we talking, what  about the pressure? For sure. The pressure   is very important. So it's a difference  between 700 bar and 350 bar or 500 bar in  

stationary applications. So this is very  relevant for the application you want to have,   yeah? When looking through your norm sheet and  forgive me for doing so I saw this one Kv value. Yeah. This is it's right here.  We have this right here. Yeah, is that also one of the key things to look out  for? The Kv value is at least if you look at   the definition, at least a definition of  the flow capacity of a component and it   makes components comparable. Yeah, if  you have our on tank valve or another   on tank valve with a Kv value, you can  compare those for the flow capacity. And why is the flow capacity so  important? Because it describes   how fast you can fill through the on tank  valve, the tank, and how fast you can empty   the tank. So we have two values. The one is  for the filling pass and the other is for  

the pass to the engine. And both is important  because you want to shorten the filling time. So if you speak about filling time, you  don't need to go drink a coffee in the   filling time. So it's not so long. It's  a few minutes depends on the tank size,   but it's relevant. And it's a unique  selling point. If you are good,   there. The higher the value is, the  better we are. So that means here we have 0.28 for example. And that is obviously  faster or more material going through  

then during the defueling. Yeah, okay.  And you see also the Zv value, yeah,   the Americans are measuring in gallons, so  the definition is a little bit different,   but there's a certain calculation factor between  that 1.16 or 1.18, I don't know exactly, but yeah. So that means yeah, obviously pressure, then  the rate of flow which can go through this.  

Yes. And of course this thing has to be  in the right norm. Exactly. And it has   so it has to be very small because you want to  make the tanks as big as possible. And if you   make the on tank valve in height, very small,  we have here 38 millimeter, that's not much. Yeah. Yeah, actually, I do remember  when we worked on a project once, 

we had a certain size actually we could  accommodate. Vehicles have a certain   length. And if you own align the tank,  the on tank valve, you're really fighting   for every millimeter because I think and I  don't know whether this is still the case.

The tanks also, can get longer and shorter  depending on.. Only a few millimeters,   but nevertheless. Yeah, you have to  accommodate for that. Sure. Okay,   so you guys with 38 millimeters  you say? Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah,   and the main points are efficiency,  reliability and safety is the main point. So let's talk that a little bit. How  do you make this thing safe? Yeah,  

it depends a little bit what you... What  feature you are looking out for. Yeah, so   there are different features.  For example, you want to avoid   blocking the valves. We saw that there  are filters in it. It's a safety issue. If the valve blocks, then you have  a problem. But the main point is   for safety, also this thermal pressure  relief device. I have brought a  

picture with me here. Okay. Yes. And  what you see here is a mechanism. So this is this. Exactly. Yeah. This is   the exploded version of it.  You know it better than me. Yeah. Think actually you explained this because  I was immediatly asking. No that's fine. Yeah.  

And this is a construction with a glass bulb.  Yes. Yes. I have brought one with me. Okay.   Yeah. Okay, so that's how that looks, yeah? In  principle, there is a liquid in it which has a   vaporization or trigger temperature which is at  the temperature you need to burst the glass bulb. So this is, in this case, 110 degrees. Yeah? And if it bursts the mechanism  

is working and leading the vent path free  for evacuation of the tanks. In principle there are two constructions. Yes, this is a  glass bulb construction. It has some advantages,   for example, accuracy of it. Yeah. But there  are also other constructions like fused metal.

Okay. TPRDs, which are working with an alloy  which has this trigger temperature. There   are also challenges but also disadvantages.  I'm showing here this kind of device. Okay,   so that brings in that safety when  the temperature goes higher, bursts,   and lets out the gas through this port here.

This port here, okay, so this is the  out. Yeah, TP, you can see the TPRD   vent. I was written on it. Ok, perfect.  And you are, you use this technology,   but you are also open to working with  other technologies as well. No, other   technologies are also available. Yeah. Yeah.  And yeah. And just one more thing, just I know, that especially you have worked with like super  high pressures, and I guess that there's also some   work that some of your experience that needs  to go into that to making this safe. Exactly.  

And out of our knowledge, we are also building  our test machines also. All right. Okay. I've   brought here with me one picture of a test machine which we have in our innovation lab. Yes. And here you see a test machine with  two chambers for testing for high pressure,   so you can put here different cycles, so you  can make static tests, you can make burst tests,   but also cycling. A hydraulic cycling  in this point. And you see here in this   graph different profiles. For example, you  can apply a sinus curve, a pressure curve.

So going in one second, two times up to a thousand  bar, or from 50 to 1000 or higher. As you want,   or as a regulation wants to see it. Do we actually  in a reality see these kind of fluctuations in a tank? No. If you compare that with  my former technology in diesel area,   it's quasi static. But nevertheless, from these  results, you can make your lifetime calculations.

Oh, your lifetime calculations. Okay, obviously.  And, because I also read a little bit about the   material of the tanks. I know the tanks, they  are also made so safe you could literally shoot   a gun at them and still work. That's true. But  on the other side, you have safety factors.

Yeah. And the safety factors should be  as high as possible. And for sure, also,   we have to talk about cost efficiency. You  cannot make such walls. Yeah. You have to   find compromises and that testing helps you to  find this cost and robustness compromise. Okay,   so speaking of cost, robustness, safety,  can you give us a little bit of an outlook? Yeah, so I know that this is a cost  factor in the entire setup. In fact,   the whole hydrogen supply chain is something  that is always important. Yeah. Can you give us   a bit of an outlook? Where is this going?  What are you seeing? What trends and so   on? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Cost is another point,  but it's a point which hurts the end consumer.

So it's important. But if you look at present  on the market, we look on different... We touch   briefly the regulations to put that together in  one regulation. So that would help us a lot. But   also technical points. Make it more robust.  For example for temperatures which are going,  

temperatures which are going lower than  the demand of minus 40 degrees at present. So the OEMs have measured in systems also  temperatures up to minus 60 degrees. It's   at present not reflected, but we have  created our own test programs for that,   to be also safe and this is really a challenge  for the sealings, because the sealings they   have to... They have a big spread from minus to  plus temperatures. There it gets challenging. Obviously, I think if you have  the right test equipment, then,   of course, you have to. It helps. Yeah. So  that means you're working, you're going,   seeing even lower temperatures that you  guys will cover. And I guess probably  

also if there's a simplification of the  norms, then the costs can also reduce. So what will come in the future is for  sure changes in architecture. Yeah. Is   it really senseful, to put on every tank  such a complex device that question some   people ask. To combine functions, to make  it simpler, but more robust. That's the way  

we are going. Okay. And Poppe + Potthoff  is obviously building that way as well. Yes. Perfect. I think we've really  gone through this thing in a very   short time. Thank you very much for coming  out and bringing all your experience with,   especially bringing this buddy with, if  you want to find components like these   and get in touch with people that do  this, then there's more on Hyfindr.com

obviously, where you'll find things from Poppe  + Potthoff, more products along that whole   hydrogen chain. We took this one as a sample  for once. Thank you very much for watching   nevertheless. Thank you Burkhard for explaining  all this. Thank you for having me here. Yes. And if you like this, do follow our Channel  or give us a Like. And there's many more  

videos that you can watch and Burkhard I'll  be giving you a coffee after this and maybe   we can do another one on a little more of the  whole pressure devices Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you very much. Have a  good day. Thank you. Thank you.

2025-01-15 02:39

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