Episode 68 Life Long Learning Together Susan & Lynn Thackeray

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*Music* Marissa: Welcome to the USU career studio podcast that  helps you navigate your career path if you enjoyed   this episode make sure to tell your friends and  family all about it subscribe to our podcast on   apple Spotify YouTube or anywhere else you listen  to get access to our newest content thanks for   joining us for our Friday face-to-face episode  I'm Marissa Armstead your host and I'm really   looking forward to our conversation with Susan  and Lynn Thackery today welcome Thackery's Susan: thank   you currently susan is an assistant professor of  technology management at utah valley university   she earned her bachelor's degree in digital media  from UVU master of education in instructional   technology from USU and doctor of education  specializing in curriculum teaching learning and   leadership from northeastern university Lynn is  currently a computer science lecturer for UVU he   earned his bachelor's degree in design engineering  and computer graphics technology from BYU his   master of education specializing in technology web  technologies and learning science he also went on   to earn his doctor of education specializing in  technical curriculum development teaching learning   and leadership from northeastern university so i  have to start off by asking how your guys's paths   cross you have such a fun career path that you've  kind of built together but talk to me about where   it all began Susan uh let's start with you Susan: so how  far back do you want me to go where it all began   yep very busy lot I've known Lynn for a long  time in fact i was like 13 and so we were high   school sweethearts and we just hit it off we would  talk about nerdy things like all those years ago   and i was attracted that he thought it was fun  to talk back to me that way so here we are Marissa: wow   okay so Lynn is she leaving anything important  out there Lynn: well we we married uh quite young my   wife was 18 and i was uh 21 and so we have been  together many many years as Susan mentioned   and you know we've enjoyed all of at least i have  Susan: i have too yeah I'm not tired of him yet yeah   we still have a lot of fun together Marissa: great  well so one of the questions that came to   my mind as i was thinking about you two is you  both decided to pursue some pretty intensive   programs you know you both pursued master's and  doctorate degrees so i'm curious is that something   that you had kind of set as a goal early on or  is that something that just developed over time   i'd love to hear about how you kind of created  these professional and educational goals together   so Lynn let's start with you Lynn: well i always had  i don't know if i would determine it as a goal   i didn't have an ending outcome identified i was  always a learner and i tried to be an ongoing   learner and so just a natural process and that  was to acquire degrees as i went along i did know   uh you know i came from a uh very rural background  my family were cattle ranchers and farmers   going back five generations it was a little bit  different striking out in my education I'm a first   generation college student but i i did feel the  desire at least to get that bachelor's degree you   know i knew from my advisors in high school that a  degree does open all sorts of doors for you that's   something that i i push with my students you have  to finish you have to finish that degree yeah and   just as a process of a lifelong learner and my  wife is a lifelong learner also I'll let her speak   we decided to uh a little bit later in life we  decided to take that journey together okay Susan   I'd love to hear from you any other Susan: yeah you know  this is this is interesting so building on you   know how we met i was just sitting here thinking  that one of the first times i really even noticed   Lynn in high school was i could always find him in  the same spot in our high school library sitting   on the floor reading books and i was so intrigued  by that so yeah together we've always valued   education we've always valued learning of every  aspect and through our journey together it is   really common for both of us if we don't know how  to do something we learn how to do it and we buy   all the equipment and we have the fun and we enjoy  that type of a journey so once we were married   after our first daughter was born and again we  were young that was the first thing that Lynn   wanted to do was to make sure that he finished  that degree and it was hard because you know we   were young parents we had no money and it took a  long time but Lynn didn't give up i worked finally   towards the end i worked full time so that he  could concentrate on school because that's before   online learning and he actually had to show up to  class right at 10 in the morning so it was kind   of hard to have a job so we really didn't have  the support of parents who paid for everything   and we did it we and that's i think of his first  his degree as my degree too so it was years later   after our four children were wrong that i went  to school for the first time i went to college   for the first time Marissa: great well oh go ahead go ahead  Lynn Lynn: I'm just going to mention uh and it's what   i i think we both instill in our students is that  a degree will change the trajectory of your life   change it for the better Susan: it does it changes the  way you think right you you think you feel things   differently Lynn: It certainly does Marissa: yeah absolutely well and i love  this idea of working on it together and i love   Susan that you shared that his degree was  also your degree that that was a team effort   i just i really appreciate that sentiment as  a follow-up question that i I'm guessing the   answer is probably no but i have to ask your  degrees are similar in a sense of what you   were interested in and so i have to ask was there  ever any competition as you earned these degrees   Susan: yes with me Lynn i don't know were you competitive  with me i was off but here's the problem for me   it's really hard to compete with Lynn like he  he is really good at anything he does anything   he sets out to do so the bar for me is always  high and i just think if i can get somewhere   close then I'm in I'm in the ballpark and  he's really nice to like help you know help   me along and say you can do this and things like  that but um yeah i feel like I'm in his shadow Lynn: oh a we were def- the whole is definitely better than the sum  of the parts i think we help each other out   yeah Susan: yes Lynn: and and it's fun if we hadn't pursued  an actual uh graduate degrees we would have   still been learning we would you know we've  always been learning Susan: that that is true and   there really was a time in our life that we  jointly decided that we wanted to go for those   graduate degrees because we knew that this was  a great way to give back to our communities by   by becoming professors and we knew that we needed  you know if you want to be an educator you have   to be educated and so we knew that we needed at  least a master's to doctorate level so we did   talk about that and that did make our so i of  course got my bachelor way after him but we did   our masters together and our doctorate together  and there were friendly competitions along the   lines of hey did you get that assignment done oh  i did you know it was kind of things like that but   yeah Lynn: well and Utah state had a ropes course that they  put all of the new master students through and i   think there's a little competition there when up  there on those scary ladders Susan: there totally was   my husband i got on first before my husband i  wasn't the first adopter and it was really scary   because there were three groups of people there  were the people that would do it right away just   jump up there and i know if you've ever done a  ropes course but it's scary and I'm we find out   and that's why they had us do it we found out  that i am the type that's the early adopter I'm   the first one and the first group makes mistakes  right that you don't do it perfectly and then the   second group will stand and watch the first group  make mistakes and improve on it and then there's   the last group that just kind of doesn't want  to do it at all and then there's still another   group that didn't even show up that day they  were so sorry but but we found out through that   experience that I'm the kind of person that will  jump right in and make the mistakes and and learn   by making the mistakes and we learned that we we  found out that Lynn is the kind that will learn   through others mistakes and he'll hold back and  then he'll do it really well because he learns   Marissa: well i love this and i love this idea of finding  a companion in life who is complementary to us not   necessarily the same but they work together really  well with you and i feel the same way about my   husband but this is a perfect lead-in i because  i really wanted to learn more about your master's   programs at USU Lindsay who is the one who brought  you both onto the show and asked me if i would   ask you because you're wonderful she said that you  both actually traveled to Africa as a part of your   culminating education experiences so I'd love to  hear from both of you what that project entailed   and how you both found yourself together in Africa  working on a master's project so maybe Lynn let's   hear from you first Lynn: well it as mentioned it was  part of our master's degree experience at UVU  and at the time Susan had the history with Utah  valley and a professor that she was close to was   putting together a group to work with the Namibian  polytechnic and they were working on asset management   as you know in Africa had been devastated by the  aids pandemic and so big swaths of middle age   people were dying of aids and it's very much a  oral culture there so the traditions are passed on   from the generations through this oral tradition  well the people that passed those traditions on   were dying off and the government was worried that  these traditions would be lost and they had no   infrastructure there it's a very poor country and  they wanted to put together a system that could   capture this information you know written audio  video and so forth and so Susan actually suggested   that we could with our technical backgrounds we  could assist in this project and so that's what we   did we went down i spent quite a bit of time with  the professors and the students of the polytechnic   it was a very positive experience and there was  learning done on both sides i know i came back   enriched and my uh horizons were significantly  broadened by the experience Marissa: and Susan for you from that experience I'd love to hear from your  perspective what it was like what you learned   maybe what you learned about each other in that  experience Susan: yeah as one mentioned on my backgrounds   in digital media and so some of these were some  of my former colleagues at Utah valley university   and so they were generous enough to let us as Utah  state university graduate students to come and set   up some things that was going to be a five-year  project so we were supposed to set up a structure   of how we would organize these assets so we got  permission to go and the thing that i learned   about Lynn when i was down there and it was for  me it was extremely profound in addition to just   the learning that took place of being in another  culture and at the time i was real strong in web   development and at the time my knowledge base was  about three years ahead of what was happening down   in Namibia so it was almost like seeing the future  and you know you could share with them how that   industry would go and teach them skills that they  could make some really good money at anyway what i   learned about Lynn was there was a particular  day when we had to organize a whole database   and what how we were going to structure this  five-year project i was busy with some research   and so Lynn took the lead on that and i watched  his presentation and i was so impressed how he   was able to just organize a long-term project  so quickly so i really i learned and he got that   basically from you know being in industry he had  way more experience than i did it at that time   and so i recognized he could teach me a lot and  he has Marissa: and again opening it up i guess to both   of you I'd love to just hear maybe one thing  that you learn in that experience that you feel   like maybe you couldn't have learned anywhere  else was there anything that stood out to you   being in a different culture that you learned  Susan: yeah Lynn: students want to learn and no matter where   they're from no matter what culture they're in  and they'll use you know obviously where all   products of that culture were raised and then  we use the resources there well in Namibia   the resources were very scarce we went out to what  was called an informal settlement which in America   that would be called maybe a shanty town of the  1930s and no electricity or limited electricity   no plumbing and yet they had a school set up and  they were trying to teach their students they were   sharing pencils and paper and they had really no  resources but these students who oftentimes didn't   have enough to eat would be going to this school  this was a primary school and i saw the same thing   in the students at the polytechnic oftentimes  we found out that they would walk to school   miles every day just to get to school they did  want to learn once you got past that they were   like students anywhere they were funny they were  uh you used critical thinking skills and wanted to   improve their lives through education Susan: i i totally  agree and i also had the benefit when i was there   i don't know if you i don't think you went with  me Lynn but i actually went out and visited   some junior highs and a middle school and  then of course we worked with the polytechnic   college level students and then we saw a lady that  started a nursery school one of the things that i   thought was unique is their traditional culture  was the faculty the teacher was the sage on the   stage that they were the all-knowing in the front  of the classroom and the students quietly listened   and took notes in there it's very i thought  very little interaction at all at all levels   so one of the things that we did when we  came down and we taught a few of the classes   is we shook it up a little bit and we did hands-on  learning because that's how i teach right you know   you let them try it and give them the equipment  they need to to let them try the concepts that   you're teaching and they were a little nervous at  first but then they adopted it really quickly and   so that was exciting to just watch the students  learn with a different approach Marissa: absolutely well   and that makes me think even to my own education  experience just how you said different professors   have different ways of sharing information and i  love that you tried multiple approaches to reach   students who maybe did need a learning style that  was different than what they had grown up in so i   love that you're able to provide a new perspective  in that way Lynn one follow-up question that   i wanted to chat with you about is about your  dissertation which was about women in computer   science and you really looked at what contributes  to women's selection and persistence in computer   science as an academic major so i'd love to  hear what piqued your interest in this topic   Lynn: well that topic my background in industry informed  that topic i was in the computer science sector   the software development sector for 25 years  prior to moving into academia and this is both in   California and in Utah and the experience was that  diversity matters it matters greatly in a very   creative field actually matters greatly anyway but  if you're in a creative field a situation you want   input from different people that come from  different backgrounds and it was hard to do   that as i progressed in my career became a manager  and a vp and i would try to hire for diversity and   particularly in Utah that was a hurdle i was at  one company and went through 200 resumes and i   would say maybe three percent of the those resumes  were from women and so that was something that i   wanted to pursue get to the bottom of that find  out what the situation is because the few women   that i did work with are exemplary very good and  and so there needed to be in my mind some way to   lower the bridge in getting women and young junior  high girls interested in science in technology   in math Marissa: absolutely yeah i love that so Susan  kind of on a similar vein i would say you had a   research interest in underrepresented populations  in science technology engineering and math so same   question to you what led to your interest in that  Susan: so being an underrepresented woman in my field   i found myself always maybe being the only one or  maybe one of two something along those lines in my   classes and i also felt i felt different right  like i felt like sometimes that i didn't belong   and my history actually goes way back to  high school when lived in a rural community   and there was one math teacher and you have the  same guy every year and he just didn't believe   that women had any business in that math class  and so he i feel like he held me back in a sense   because by the time i graduated i just didn't  feel like it was an avenue even though that's   where my interest was so when it came time to do  my research i wanted to know if other people had   experienced similar things that they had received  subtle messaging and being told young women and   and even people in minorities the statistics  are very similar that they don't belong in these   careers and they don't have what it takes and what  that's called is self-advocacy there's some point   in their life that that they don't see themselves  in that i can't tell you how many older women   women that have dropped out of stem fields and  they all have a story on what happened on somebody   told them you know not to continue or you know  somebody told them it was too hard for them and   so i wanted to know there's a lot of research  around why women quit or fail out but there's   very little research on what makes them stay and  so um i researched women in Utah where there is a   culture of that women should stay home and raise  children and not pursue certainly a stem degree   but maybe even a degree in general and i wanted  to know where that message was coming from and why   the women that did go through a program a stem  and get a stem degree what kept them there and   it was a fascinating research they don't they  don't recognize themselves the outcome is that   they don't recognize themselves as trailblazers  they do work harder and they recognize that they   feel like they're you know isolated and they're  the only ones and there's a unique sense that   women disapprove of them and then disapprove  of them because they're going against the   cultural norms and they but they don't recognize  their power that they can lend to the diversity   of the industry like Lynn was saying you know  they could help change they also have a tendency   to not bring other women along they fight  their way in through this degree and they and   then they just carry on they don't i guess  they don't recognize their power and uh so   it was a fascinating and my participant sample  were universities across the state of Utah Marissa: such   interesting research and it sounds like you both  have a similar goal of really understanding why   underrepresented populations aren't entering this  field that you both are so passionate about which   i think is really cool and it made me think of  an interview i actually just did not too long ago   with a female engineer who is recent to the field  and we talked about some of these things and i am   really hopeful especially after that conversation  with her i'm really hopeful that we are starting   to see some changes in this stigma that has been  in Utah but but i would say worldwide i think   we are starting to see changes in that because of  the work that you and so many others are doing so   really appreciate you sharing those and your work  in the field one thing i also wanted to move into   as well so now you both work for Utah valley  university Susan you're an assistant professor   of technology and management and then you're  lecturing in computer science so i would love to   hear from each of you just to learn a little bit  more about what your positions look like pre-coded   and then what they look like currently so  Lynn let's start with you Lynn: well pre-covid  all of my classes were taught on campus in a  traditional classroom and prior to coming to   UVU i did teach at another university that was  primarily online so you know have experienced   teaching online but at UVU it was all in class  so you had a personal relationship with most   of the students you knew they were if not by  name at least by sight and the communication   was asynchronous and synchronous both they could  ask questions you in the classroom they could   email you afterwards they could walk into your  office and so had a very hands-on relationship and   you know you can catch issues early if someone's  struggling you often can uh see that early in the   classroom and i would have in-class assignments  where i would observe very short-term assignments   that were completed during the class period and  got really good feedback that way of how my uh   teaching was going what i needed to focus on  and things like that you know going totally   online after uh the covid pandemic has started you  lose some of that and at UVU we have two types of   online we have a what we call streaming where it  is distance delivered but uh the normal times that   you would spend in the classroom two or three  times a week you actually had a meeting through   zoom or teams to where everybody would gather and  discuss that's streaming and then of course we   have the fully online where it's all asynchronous  you know you can post videos and perhaps have an   online chat but you don't have that communal  meeting time so you know you have to modify   your teaching when you're teaching online and  actually uh contrary to some popular belief   teaching online is more challenging and more work  than teaching on campus you can't be that sage on   the stage and just stand up and talk because you  don't have a stage anymore you actually have to   design your course to be relevant and provide  good teaching material Marissa: absolutely and Susan   same question to you I'd love to learn a little  bit more about what your position looked like pre   and during covid Susan: so mine's similar to Lynn and  both of us have backgrounds in delivering distance   technical courses so we've been at this for a  while and we have expertise i also teach adjunct   to northeastern in the summer and so that's all  distance delivered to doctorate level students   and then the first semester of covid i had a live  stream graduate class actually through the school   of business I'm in the college of engineering and  technology and technology management and we have a   degree at UVU that has it's a master in business  with a technology management focus and so um i   taught the first tech management course and it was  live stream and it worked out fine that you know   students are used to it one of the hallmarks of  my online classes that i get a lot of pushback on   i still do group projects i just feel like that's  super important that students are working together   but when in an asynchronous class you can't  insist that students meet at the same time   because that's not what they signed up for and so  i feel like that mirrors the industry right now   you may be in a different time zone and they those  students need to figure out how to work in a group   and with different schedules and different  time zones how will they keep communicating   you know how will they complete a project and i  do get a lot of pushback but usually at the end of   the semester the students begin to see the value  i was going to mention too i know that Lynn does   a really good job he does really excellent videos  that he posts to his online courses and so that   students can you know review and and i think in  his discipline that's really critical of computer   science is a thing that you know you need to hear  several times if you want to talk about that Lynn: my   teaching is informed by my industry experience so  everything that i do is geared towards getting the   students prepared to hit the ground running when  they graduate and so my assignments my assessments   are all focused on that and rather than have just  a 10 or 12 week long programming assignments I'll   put together a semester-long problem for them  to solve and there will be several phases to   that and that mimics what they would normally  see in industry a large project where they'd   have release one released to release three and as  Susan mentioned teamwork is very important in all   disciplines but particularly in computer science  because the technology is advanced to uh such a   degree that there's no individual contributors  anymore coming up with a killer concept all   software is created by teams and so what was once  a soft skills you know communication and writing   and working together as teams those are actually  skills that are interviewed for they're not soft   anymore you need those skills and so some  of my focus i know some students focus is on   developing those skills Marissa: and something that  I'm kind of hearing from both of you is we   need to be developing technical skills whether we  think of them as technical or not uh whether it's   communicating via email or zoom or whatever it  may be where technology is becoming more and more   integrated into our everyday lives and especially  the workplace so and i didn't prepare you for this   question but I'd love to hear if you had to  hypothesize where do you see education moving   forward do you see more and more technology  integrated into the classroom do you see more   teaching maybe from a distance what do you think  the future looks like Susan: so i am actually working on   an initiative that's in Utah right now credit for  prior learning and prior learning assessment i   think some of the future is that universities are  going to do better at assessing and giving credit   to experiences and learning that takes place  outside the traditional classroom and that's   a little bit difficult to assess that fairly so  that your accreditation stands strong within a   university and so faculty and universities need  to learn how to do that better there's some talk   about competency-based education same thing that's  that's difficult to assess and competency-based   education is different than credit for prior  learning two different concepts but i see this   gravitating more towards that i do think that when  we keep talking about return to normal i think we   have learned some new things through the covet  experience that we're finding out that distance   delivered courses sometimes are really good with  people that maybe have learning challenges there's   people that are in the workforce it's tailored  to their schedules so i think we're going to   see some changes in the university to reach out to  adult learners and learners who have needs like we   talked about earlier when Lynn Lynn went to school  you had to be in the classroom in a seat at 10   in the morning on a Tuesday and i think we're  going to see a little more flexibility so people   can complete degrees while they work Lynn: education has  been evolving quite heavily for the last 20 years   the student body is becoming older when i went to  school as Susan mentioned you showed up at 10 in   the morning and if you had a job you better go to  that job after you go to school and so if you had   not completed your degree by 21 20-23 pretty much  over for you well the the lifelong learners that   didn't fit that model didn't fit very well  and so there's been an evolution students   are actually becoming older they're becoming  lifelong learners and even prior to the pandemic   i would have students in my class that were older  than me uh my age or so forth maybe some of them   had a degree and were coming back to go into a  different field in fact we've just in the computer   science department have released a programming  degree for older students that have a degree   already but want to move into programming and this  is well underway and i i certainly supported that   and so you don't have to be the young 20 year  old to get a degree you can be a retired person   you can be person that's worked for 10 years in  industry you want to go back now what the pandemic   has done it has fundamentally changed how least at  UVU and and other universities that i I'm aware of   how the mindset of the professors the mindset of  the staff at the university and i think this will   after the pandemic is over education is going  to come out of this much change there'll be   much more offerings in asynchronous and online  and that's more opportunities for people who   are challenged in ways particularly uh with their  schedule you know they might have small children   at home they might be working a full-time job and  they can't drive into campus find a parking place   and spend all day but yet they can continue their  education through some of the technologies that   are emerging and will become more pronounced going  forward zoom and other voice over ip technologies   and cloud sharing that's all going to impact for  the better i think our education going forward Susan: podcasts are a great example Lynn: podcasts yes Marissa: yes absolutely well and i love that  you tied it back into how this might help some   of these underrepresented populations you're  talking about and opening up access for students   while online doesn't remove all academic barriers  obviously i think you're right that it will open   up a lot of doors for less traditional students if  you will Lynn one thing i also wanted to follow up   about your work so when we're looking at women's  persistence in computer science I'm really curious   what were some of the top indicators that women  showcased when they were able to persist and   graduate within a degree so what were some of  those top indicators that they were going to   continue Lynn: and that's very good question that  there's been a lot of research on why women   are not more represented in the technologies my  research was on computer science and on the women   that did persist and were successful what were the  common indicators there and by and large it was   they had a mentor they had a female mentor that  helped them that they could look up to and those   are few and far between in computer science i  mean it's getting better now but those are few and   far between additionally i had several research  students that i did the research on that had come   from a military background they joined the army  in the and the navy and in there they were given a   choice of two or three specialties and they were  given aptitude tests and they scored real high   in technology and to them that was just that was  news to them they hadn't really pursued it in high   school or anything and so they were moved into  these technical specifications programming in i.t   and they excelled at it they excelled at it and  so they were able to overcome some of this inertia   that said no you want to pursue other paths this  is a male dominated occupation and so they were   able to overcome that the other students you know  they had some female mentors and there are still   hurdles they're coming down they're coming down  quite a bit but just generally being as my wife   mentioned the only female in a class of 30 that  can be kind of intimidating and you know it's   kind of sad in a way because if you look at the  history of computer science some of the great   pivotal moments came from women the first female  programmer ever was a female Augusta Lovelace   and then in the 40s and 50s some of the pioneers  were female Grace Hooper for example so it's just   our society our western society that i think has  put up some roadblocks if you look at some of the   other societies even societies that don't have the  greatest record for women's rights in the Mideast   you over there and their classes are much more  evenly dispersed male female and so we have some   catching up to do in this country Marissa: well i think you  bring up a great point i love this idea of female   mentors that's something that's come up in other  conversations i had Susan Madsen on on our show   not too long ago and that's something that she and  i have talked about the importance of female role   models but also i love that you pointed out that  they took these aptitude tests that reassured them   of skill sets that they had and i think that is  so critical that we're not only providing mentors   but we're also seeing you do have the skills you  do have this capacity or this ability to pursue   this type of field so i think that's a really  interesting insight Susan did you have anything   you wanted to add on Susan: that's exactly right that's  what my research showed i spent a lot of time on   the self-advocacy thing and the first group of  females that we lose is right around junior high   age from 12 to about 14 and that's exactly the  time for a good intervention is to have projects   for them they already show an interest and they  want to participate but if you can show them   and do projects that they have what it takes  that's exactly you're exactly right that's   what's needed one of the things that's interesting  in my research compared to Lynn's as mine showed   that it was men who helped the women build this  sense of self-efficacy that it was the male   voices and a lot of times people think that young  female should be taught alone just female groups   and really the research shows that it's good for  male and female to be together at that age and so   that the males can see that the female do have  efficacy and it allows the males to learn how   to support women in these roles and make room for  them and move them through a system where they're   underrepresented a strong male voice at the  table convincing other males that these women   does change a culture is what i identified  but yes we need to see it to be it we female   walls are good however right now there's not a  lot of them so what my research showed by the   women that were succeeding is they recognized  that they might not find that female role model   and they had to be it or they had to find male  role models that were willing to move them forward   Marissa: this is so interesting and you know i was it made  me reflect on my own experiences because I've   had I've been fortunate and had both female and  male role models in my field in career services   and both were instrumental in in different  ways but i agree that both were helpful as I've   built my career and continue to so i love that  perspective of needing mentors from all sides well   Thackeray's we are just about out of time here but i  do want to close with one final question and I'll   have each of you respond Susan I'll have you go  first if you could give one piece of advice to our   listeners about developing a mindset of lifelong  learning what would it be Susan: just one is hard but i   think my number one would be except that sometimes  trying new things may feel uncomfortable you may   feel different you may not even feel very good  at it and that a lifelong learner you you just   keep learning right it's okay to sit with that  feeling of you know maybe you are the only female   in a class or maybe you didn't do it so well so  back i guess back to that ropes course experience   jump right in and try something new and you'll  get better with practice you'll get better Marissa: love   that and Lynn same question to you what advice  would you give for building a mindset of lifelong   learning Lynn: well and as Susan mentioned that's a hard  question because the only competition that we as   students have are with ourselves and as student  as Susan mentioned it doesn't matter your velocity   just keep moving forward keep learning and as  you gain knowledge and experience it's because   we also learn through our experiences we enrich  our lives and in turn we enrich others around   us Marissa: love that well i have to say i feel privileged  to have had such a power couple on the show today   I've learned so much i wish we had another three  or four hours to continue this conversation but   i really really appreciate you sharing your  career paths and experience with us today   Susan: thank you this has been fun Lynn: yes thank you for the  opportunity Marissa: if you're interested in learning   more about the need for diversity in the Utah  stem workforce please check out the link in this   episode's bio below thanks for joining us here  at the career studio today remember to join us   next week as we begin to discuss our new monthly  theme of turning failures into bright futures *Music*

2021-03-30

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