STEM Positive Disruptor: MIA conversation with Prof. Helen James, OBE EurIng CEng FIMechE

STEM Positive Disruptor: MIA conversation with Prof. Helen James, OBE EurIng CEng FIMechE

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hello this is Margaret Ajibode, the STEM  positive disruptor and on Mia's conversation   I have a special guest Professor Helen James  um she's an OBE she's got an OBE,oh she tells   you about that and also she give us more about  her background and she's a board chair and she's   also a higher education leader of transformational  change and I'm so grateful that she's come on my   platform I met her at the Tomorrow's Engineers  Live program which was in a middle of March   um and she just talked about the the need for  inclusive engineering and the engineering language   and I think it's so important from where we  are as these platform is here to educate to   raise awareness change people's perception and  demystify what stem is that science technology   engineering and Mathematics it's about providing  practical Solutions about how can we bring out our   enthuse our young people or make it more  diverse our environment how can we bring   public into our domain how can we manage  this idea of skill shortage the environment   what is the things that we can do so uh  without further Ado welcome Professor Helen thank you so please tell us more about  yourself okay yeah so I'm from Baron furnace   um which is North West it's a shipbuilding  town where they currently build the the   nuclear submarines but it was armaments as  well as shipbuilding and I left school at   16 and went and did an apprenticeship as  a mechanical engineer in the shipyard and   I was the first girl there was five of us that  year but we were the very first five that were   taken on as apprentices in the shipyard and it  was absolutely fabulous and if any of you are   thinking about doing an apprenticeship it is the  most privileged position in my in my opinion but   I guess I'm biased privileged position to be  in because you're being paid you're learning   and you're working alongside really skilled  Engineers so you can really learn that really   learn the trades I basically failed my 11 plus  so I didn't go to the grammar school I went to   a secondary modern school as they were then and  it was probably the best thing that could have   happened because it was I was able to do music  I was produced sport I'm a pretty all-rounder   but love math and physics and yeah I kind of left  school at 16. against all the advice I was given   it was very much I really that's what I wanted to  do [Music] um I had no idea what engineering was   if I'm honest Margaret absolutely I have no idea  whatsoever none of my family worked in engineering   um but it was a very practical decision if I'm  really honest because I knew because it was a a   blokey profession blokes tend to get paid better  certainly they did in those days you know women's   work was shop work and care that's not not what I  wanted to do at all but by engineering I knew that   I could earn money and uh be independent as an  independent woman and not have to rely on anybody   so that's kind of why it didn't that's amazing you  know something I do love the idea because when you   think about us when we um young people are looking  to they have different reasons why they want to go   into the workplace and you you made a good point  about when you did your apprenticeship it was   actually for practical reason is that and you saw  that this environment you can actually earn more   as a woman than if you worked in a normal field  where they expect women to work in and I think   this is quite important for young people to hear  that look it's okay that if your drivers are to   be more financially independent then that's okay  as well and if you need to go into this Avenue   although you're not sure what it means or what it  will entail at least you give me your chance of   giving yourself a chance to see what you can make  out of that so thank you very much for that and I   am really impressed that you're one of my first  five women that actually started that program as   an apprenticeship so we're saying shout out  to those apprenticeships that Apprentice out   there that are doing great things as well um just  tell us more about your background because you   can't really work you're the vice chair with um  Turner's schools we also um a chair please explain   more about what you're doing your current role  and where where you are yeah sure so what what   I did my I forgot to finish my apprenticeship I  then went into they sponsored me actually to go   to university so I was paired while I was doing  my degree and I went to Leicester University to   do a general engineering degree because up until  then I've done everything to do with mechanical   engineering but I didn't know whether I might  like electrical engineering or civil engineering   um as it happened it was mechanical engineering  I wanted to do and after I finished my degree I   then moved down to Portsmouth and got a job in  the um first of all at Marco well my currently   Space Systems basically and we we designed and  built satellites or parts of satellites I love   my time there but then fancy doing teaching  but not School teaching college teaching   um so then transitioned as a lecturer into  the further education sector and worked down   in Portsmouth but then moved back up to Cumbria  and again worked in the Fe sector then I wanted   a bit more of the research and business engagement  so I then managed to get a job in the University   sector at Brighton University so I totaled back  down south um and worked at Brighton University   where I was there for 10 years but had a number  of different roles including Business Development   um commercialization of intellectual property  working with businesses it was really absolutely   brilliant loved it and then I was headhunted  for a job in North Wales which was to create a   university and it was an Institute of Technology  at that time and they wanted it to become a   university and I was part of a small Senior Team  that was head hunted from different universities   to create a university which we did um which  is now called glendor University in wrexham   um very much about widening participation and  enabling um people from all walks of life to be   able to go into University um and then after I  was there for quite a number of years actually   and during during my kind of Journey Through the  different jobs I did a master's in education and   I did that because I wanted to know and learn  a lot more about me as a woman and really that   kind of feminist lens and understanding why  as a woman would I want to do why did I want   to do engineering is that a bit odd and I needed  to understand myself yeah yeah rather than just   accepting that's what I did so and I found that  really really helpful and I did do some writing   and research about gender and women and Technology  and Engineering which was really enjoyable and   then I did a doctorate I went to the University  of bath in my 40s I think I was probably in   the forces by the time I did my doctorate then  that was the doctors in Business Administration   which again I loved and then I moved down to I got  a job down at Canterbury Christchurch University   and I became the deputy Vice Chancellor which  for those of you that are not in the University   sector it's basically like a deputy CEO  chief executive type role so very senior   um absolutely loved it and I had all the kind  of academic responsibilities but they had an   ambition to move into engineering because they  didn't teach engineering at that time and so   recruiting Me Not only did they get a senior  manager but they got a senior manager that had   a really wide background in diff in engineering  um so over a number of years and there's real   relevance why I'm telling you telling you the  story about it because what I was able to do   was with the whole support of this was in Kent  and Medway the businesses local authorities at   the University federal education Colleges  and Schools all got behind a vision which   was to create an inclusive engineering  education in Kent and Medway and enabling   opportunities for people who hadn't previously  had opportunities so for example East Kent is   the coastal network is quite deprived so far few  people go into University from from that area   um I suppose black and ethnic minority students  were still quite in low population actually at   that time in Canterbury and cancer Medway  and certainly from a gender perspective   um with women still were quite underrepresented in  Kent and Medway there weren't that many businesses   in science and engineering and Technology until  I started lifting up stones and asking people   and and actually what transpired there was a  lot of businesses but they were quite small   businesses yeah and they weren't celebrated  by the region so this inclusive Vision wasn't   only about creating a university that taught  engineering but it was a it was part of a an   ecosystem where by schools young people parents  businesses universities they've all work together   to I suppose grow the economy in Kent  and Medway but through engineering   um so quite quite a transformative Vision we were  really lucky because we managed to get funding   from the higher education funding Council for  England because they recognized its innovation   in the education space but we also got Economic  Development funding from the southeast lap which   was brilliant and then the university also  put funding in and we there now is a vibrant undergraduates and postgraduate provision in  engineering and pleased to say that that as a   proportion of women academics in that school  it's higher than anywhere else in the UK wow   students young women for girls particularly  are going there because they recognize it's   an inclusive environment I set up  very strict suppose recruitment   um profiles that I wanted people that were  totally committed to our vision of inclusion   um not that they could put Reams and reams  of academic papers together which is typical   in universities but I wanted people that  were committed to work with with industry   that were working on inclusive projects that  we had the Medics working with Engineers we   had the computer scientists working with the  education faculty and that's really what what   we've managed to create so it's still in its  early days it's only four or five years old   we have a fabulous head of school Anne and she's  totally committed to it and the people that we've   recruited our totally committed tours as well so  the relevance behind that and I'm talking about no   no please please but this is so important because  I think in a way this is always happening in Kent   we're able to Across the um the country itself  and I think it's a Way Forward really so I'll   let you carry on okay all right yeah so um so  yeah so within Kent and Medway we've we've got   this very kind of regional Regional approach  which is which is you know I think he's he's   really transformative and we have had a number  of organizations um asking us to do toolkits   so for example they're all Academy of engineering  have just awarded the projects funding to develop   a toolkit around diversity and inclusion because  they recognize what we're doing is really quite   special across the across the UK so that so that's  that so that's one project I'm also Vice chair   of Turner schools which is a number of primary  and also secondary schools based in folkestone   um they are passionate one of them is  a brand new school it's a free school   and I was initially recruited again because of  the engineering technology but they wanted to   embed engineering throughout their curriculum so  they now have engineering right from year seven   all the way through they do GCSE in engineering  and so so again there's a a kind of a a Bedrock   of testing ideas and and getting it getting  a commitment there's lots we need to do there   um and one of the things that you mentioned  at the beginning was around language and   Engineering language yes and one of the things  I'm really pushing at the moment and pressing   is to is while we talk about stem and I can  see real value in talking about stem I'm really   interested in emphasizing the E Engineering in  the middle because I think people understand   what science is they understand maths they even  understand technology because they're working   with it yes but people are not confident  about using the word engineering because   it's you know or it's other people over there  that do it all what what is engineering and I   want to get engineering demystified and I want  it to become normalized that that it doesn't   matter whether you're a primary school teacher  secondary school teacher you will use the word   engineering yeah because you're not frightened  of it anymore you've Got Confidence about it   and so the teachers in in the Turner schools  I'm encouraging them when they're when they're   working on projects to say but this is  what engineering is this is an engineering   project it's just applying all the subjects to  create something um so gradually breaking down   gradually breaking down the barriers I also um  sit on the Royal society's education committee   and and again that is very much linked from a kind  of a Technology based a technical qualifications   aspect it's trying to feed in influence because  they're very influential with with governments   and and other kind of policy Networks um what  is that three of them I can't remember now and   of course the final one actually I'm chair of  the education skills strategy board for the   institution of mechanical engineers that's  my background it's my profession sure and   um I took on that chair 12 months or so ago and  so again I'm being now as chair being able to   I suppose be out there advocating and leading  the institution in its work to do with education   skills and making sure that our qualifications our  programs and universes are at the Leading Edge you   know sustainability for example being embedded and  inclusive curriculum so I've got I've got fingers   now in a number of different pies that I can lever  some of these changes that I want to see across   the board I do do you know I'm celebrating um  Professor Helen I I do love the idea of including   engine and you know and I also love what you're  doing where the Turner school is concerned where   you're making engineering being in bed across  from from primary school or is it Nursery School   attitude and I think that's wonderful and that's  what we I think most people are saying that look   we seem to lose our young people and from primary  school days so unless they know what's going on   at the very early age ever so difficult for you to  enthuse them when they've already formed the idea   of what they think um they would like to do in a  secondary school era and I I think it's so it's   serious I am celebrating what you've achieved and  what you're doing right now and also what you do   not cross the different areas that you're working  or you're involved in and can you just explain   because you talk about um engine has  a language and the importance of I.T   bringing it across so that people can understand  can you in layman's language because we want the   audience to understand what because the oldest  is the public it's actually whoever wants feels   important they need to to know and I think  it's very important how would you in a very   simple terms describe what an injury language is  and why it's important so engineering to me is   using all the other subjects but bringing them  together and applying it to create something   so we can talk about being an engineer we can  talk about an Engineering Process and and I   guess what I'm trying to do is say just in the  way that people will talk about science or maths   let's talk about engineering um as opposed to oh  well it's something I I really appreciate I'm not   doing this in [Music] life their language I'm kind  of going around in circles a little bit but it um   everything you see around you Everything You Touch  everything you interact with has been engineered   you know whether it's a laptop whether it's I've  got a picture that I'm looking at on my wall   that the frame will have been manufactured and  Engineers will have been involved in that process   um and I think the wonderful thing about  engineering is that you can go into any   of the workplaces so the health sector for  example you know in a hospital hospitals   recruit Engineers everywhere you go there  are there are engineers but we don't use that   engineering language we'll we'll say oh well we've  made the laptop or we've designed something yeah   that is created something so we use other words  because we're familiar with those those words yeah it's been engineering yeah do you know  something you made up on about in the importance   of normalized it's about making it an irregular  thing that you say all the time that people can   then begin to understand be appreciate it more  because as you mentioned um science or you do   not besides they talk about science or they we  sometimes they include engine has been signed   where it's not really true at technology we  know about techno technology because we talk   about technology all the time mathematics as well  that's the same thing all Engineers can say we are   lagging behind because we don't make it it's not  as normal as the other subjects I'm talking about   and you you know I I think it's so important  that we promote that engineering language we   try and embed it across the board that people can  resonate with it and they become a normal thing   rather thinking what is engineering really what  as you talk the frame and the picture what is its   engine is manufacturers isn't it it's engineering  so it's about yeah normalizing it so thank you so   much for that and you know I so yeah so I want  to go back to what you do with what you did   with Christ Church about getting it's about into  this interdisciplinary getting people different   um skill or different expertise to come  and work together and also I'm moving a   bit well the Turner school is bad you said about  embedding and you're from the outset how did you   how did you how did the proposal come across and  how did you what are those key recommendations   that enable that to happen because I think this is  something that most of my guests has spoken about   we needed to be embedded it has to be integrated  from the from an early stage but we seem to be   stronger with that but you seem to have found  a solution or they're still in a testing mode   but it's still work it's working I think it's  in its infancy still I think the [Music] um   what's going on in Christchurch probably is less  in its infancy because it's about four years old   now I think within the return of schools um it  it's it's there in in that there is a there is   engineering embedded across each of the each  of the years but I wouldn't say yet that that   engineer we're just doing the strategy actually  and so it's really relevant at the moment because   I'm testing with them what is their appetite  for engineering yeah to be much more explicit   and inclusive not only in a design technology or  an engineering course but actually why don't we   talk about engineering if you're in a English  literature class or if you're an English class   or if you are in an arts class why why engineer  engineering shouldn't be just associated with   the engineering or design technology and I and I  had this when I was talking with the DFE because   they've actually set up a new teacher training  qualifications for engineers to go and teach   but they're it's called Engineers teach physics  and what I'm saying to them is it isn't about   engineers teaching physics it's about engineers  going into schools and teaching in schools they   may touch they may teach physics they may teach  maths they may they may teach Design Technology   but having an engineer in a school environment  yeah you then have an opportunity to drip feed   that engineering language and way of thinking  because we are brilliant problem solvers we tend   to look at Cross things rather than in-depth  detail which is what scientists tend to do   um and we're quite team players so we pull people  together and and problem solve so I think the turn   of schools is is honored on a journey um but but  conversations are being had which is fabulous yes   thinking Christchurch it is it is more developed  and the the the area that we're tackling tackling   sounds negative I don't mean it's negative  the area that we're working with at the moment   is the engineering academics working with  the teacher training academics because my my   perception what part of my transformation vision  is that I I really want more young people to be   studying the physics and the maths and Engineering  within Kent and Medway that's really tricky isn't   it because trying to recruit teachers in those  disciplines is tricky but trying to get that   if we're trying to infiltrate that sounds negative  but in the schools we should have teacher trainers   so those that are doing initial teacher  training the teachers of the future   need to have a module or projects or something  that that they become aware of what engineering   is so at Christchurch we've got the engineering  students and academics working with the teacher   education students teacher trainers working  on a project and learning about engineering   so when those teachers go out into jobs in Kent  and Medway schools they will be able to use the   word engineering they will have some appreciation  of what engineer is and so that drip feed is is   starting so you kind of got to nibble away  it's all the different influencing aspects   so true I you know I I do agree with 100 and  I think this is so important and I think it's   very important where education is concerned if  we want to if these are young people against   that we need to it's not just about the students  it's also about the teachers as well it's about   understanding what needs to be done and then  embedded and make it be a normal thing a normal   conversation because when it becomes a normal  conversation then you're not overthinking about   what is this or what is that so you know you  I'm impressed seriously I'm celebrating for   us absolutely nobody it's it's true though because  again unless your vision unless you can see things   beyond the norm you cannot make that change and  you know the thing is you've got a platform and   you're making use of that platform in such a  positive way to bring that change that we've   been crying about for so long so again I said  thank you so much for that but order now I I   know that there was an event in 2022 um I think  was that I am a key event and they said um there   was a about inspiring the uh inspiring Outreach  to engineer solutions for the future challenges   um so very briefly do you know we talk about the  skill short there's quite a lot we'll talk about   the environment lots of things that we're talking  about you know even we're not even we don't even   know what future problems we may have but  what does that mean by inspiring Outreach   to engineer solutions to Future challenges  yeah so part so we've talked about teachers   we've talked about universities and colleges  and whatever so for me the app the Outreach   is where we have Engineers going out into  schools working doing engineering projects   um so we have organizations such as stem learning  engineering UK institutional mechanical engineers   there's other organizations that do it and they  go out and into schools and the schools the   teachers the young people will work on will work  on projects and that really is part of building   engineering Capital with those young people and  teachers so again it's about that engineering   language so that by having Engineers going out  talking about engineering working on projects that   are linked with engineering and increasingly those  projects are to do with sustainability they'll be   due with artificial intelligence a whole range  of different things there's one organization   who that is confident about using Engineering  in their name and and I think they're an amazing   organization they're called primary engineer  all right but they do masses of Outreach work   at primary level and secondary level and they and  there's no apologies whatsoever they talk about   engineering and and I just think that's amazing  because some of the other organizations in my   opinion are hiding behind stem even though  they are engineering organizations yeah and   really pressing them to be more confident  about using engineering if we if we if we   have organizations that are about engineering  but they're using stem rather than engineering   I think we're we're really missing a trip yeah  I would say you know we have now got more young   people well more people studying engineering and  Technology degrees than than we've we've ever had   so it has been increasing it has been increasing  it ha it's increasing at a similar rate though   to the expansion of the universe so I wouldn't  say it's expanding it to higher at a higher rate   um was somewhere a little bit behind in terms  of the numbers of females in engineering and   it does depend what discipline you look  at to know what the percentage of women   are in the engineering technology disciplines  unfortunately mechanical is one of the lower   proportions but General engineering chemical  is is tending to be ha does tend to be higher   so it's about engineering Capital Margaret it's  about more people having those conversations about   about engineering the the group that we haven't  mentioned at all and it was a group of people that   I was really targeting when I was in Northeast  Wales when I was at Glendale University I set up   what was called then technical question dawn  it's a science center okay um and we set up   the Science Center The Car well for a number  of reasons really one was to get parents over   into a university environment because in this in  the region um it was a lower participation area   um quite Working Class People didn't aspire to go  to Universal so there was one thing about helping   peoples feel comfortable being on a University  campus but there was another thing which was   about engineering so we did invest in and we got  some funding from Welsh government to create a   science center in wrexham and that was all about  parents learning alongside their young people   from these primary kids all the way through  really yeah so the breaking down barriers   intergenerational learning um now I haven't yet  managed to persuade Kenton Medway to invest in a   science center but seriously that it that isn't  after that whole engagement with parents is an   aspect that we need to be engaging with in in some  in some form or another really do you know you   made a good point and that's so important because  they are the ones that help their children to make   decisions about what career if they're going to  go go on or at least they look onto them anyway   because sometimes with The Courier Service  that doesn't always work because they also   are struggling where engineering is concerned so I  I think you know that that project that's working   erection they should really I think it's something  we should really shout about would need to promote   it and I don't know how but we're going to use  this platform to do that and you know I seriously   I'm so grateful that you've come on this platform  so I love the idea and I I it's not just an idea   but it's a reality for us as Engineers to  think about engine using that engine as a   norm using engineering the word Engineering in  a normal context because that's the only way we   can demystify what people see as engineering or  what Engineers do because if it becomes a normal   um word you know across how we speak and how we  use it then I think people can start appreciative   because they can see tangible ways that Engineers  are making that difference and what they use   because engineering is everywhere and we need  to celebrate we need to raise this profile so   we can make that difference so that when young  people or adults are looking or helping that   young people or that to make decisions they  they can see or they can visualize what it   means to be an engineer what an engineer does  and how Engineers so infiltrated or integrated   in our society as a whole so you know thank  you so much I can talk with you all the time but one just one thing very very short very one  this is said not very essential what would you   like the audience to take away from this very  briefly oh oh that engineering is inclusive   um because if we're not inclusive we will  continue to design products that all of   society cannot engage with a Daft example  but if you think about a handbrake on a car   it is only now with the Advent of technology  that actually we we don't have to yank the   handbrake up I don't know about you but  my husband used to pull it up and yank it   so high I couldn't even then undo it and that's  because you've got you've got men designing for   men and they're not designing for the total  population things have moved on I know that   yes yes but yeah so for me it is inclusion  and it's about creating an inclusive Society   thank you so much I so appreciate you I I  celebrate and I I seriously I I love the   vision I love what you've done across the board  where you are what you're doing right now do you   know something I I would love to call you back on  the platform because there's so much I can talk   to you about because it's so important I know we  it's laughing but it's it's what you're doing it's   some of that res it can make a difference if  you look it in a broader context and I think   you're doing great job great work thank you  so much I appreciate it thank you thank you   um again this is Margaret Ajibode,  please listen to this podcast

2023-04-15 07:20

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