Skills that future tech leaders will need Ep 163

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are the technology leaders today different from  the ones that most of us experienced over the   past 20 to 30 years during the tech boom and if  so what does that mean for the next generation   of tech leadership we'll tackle everything from  Tech bro culture to the top skills that tomorrow   Tech tomorrow's Tech leaders will have on this  episode of today in [Music] Tech hi everybody   Welcome to today in Tech I'm Keith sh joining me  on the show today is Robert Eric seagull he is a   lecturer in management at the Stanford Graduate  School of Business as well as a venture partner   at Piva welcome to the show Rob thanks Keith great  to be here all right so let's just jump right into   it in the in the course of your career have you  seen uh any changes in how technology leaders   are created today versus maybe those in the past  because you have seen a shift correct absolutely   I think the biggest difference is that today's  technology leaders are far more focused they're   very product Le in terms of how they think about  building their companies but also their social   personas are very different than a lot of the  tech leaders that came before if you look at   the founding of Silicon Valley people like Bill  huet David Packard Bob noise Andy Grove Etc you   know these were people who brought a gravitas  of character towards what they were doing how   they ran their companies how they conducted  themselves you know in the public eye and we   see you know with the rise of social media and  the importance of tech on a global basis we've   seen that a lot of the technology leaders today  will be more bombastic far more out there will be   trying to make noise for the sake of making noise  and by the way they get rewarded on blogs on on   podcasts on mainstream media and social media  so there's a positive reinforcing Circle for   them from an attention standpoint not clear that  it's kind of the behavior of stewardship that we   saw perhaps from a previous generation of techn  leaders do do you still see that the same type   of people going into it with your classes at the  at Stanford um is there still a a I don't want to   say stereotype but is there an archetype that that  that you say well it's funny when I graduated from   Stanford over 30 years ago the tech industry was  substantively smaller and even here within the   heart of Silicon Valley those of us who went into  Tech was a much smaller subset of the graduating   population now it's very very prominent not  only are the large tech companies so much   more impactful on a global basis but as we've  talked about Keith you know every company has a   tech aspect to it so you see many many more people  going into Tech and I think that you also see a   lot of people maybe who are less technologically  focused than they used to be as Tech becomes more   prominent in everything from retail to financial  services Etc you will see people going into Tech   businesses but are often times very applied  vertically into a particular domain so they may   or may not have engineering degrees uh as in the  past the last thing I'll say is they are very much   more diverse than they were even 30 40 years ago  or even 20 years ago there are some issues that   we'll talk about a bit I know that you're going  to raise in our discussions but it's certainly   very very different than it was three decades  ago well yeah so so when when you see a student   coming in or you see someone who's like I want to  be a tech leader I want to be an entrepreneur do   they come in knowing that they have an idea in at  in mind or do they just want to learn the skills   of I'll get that I'll get that idea eventually  or I'll find someone who has the idea and then   and then run with it you know how much does a  future entrepreneur need to understand technology   especially if every company is either a technology  company or with generative AI every company's now   an AI company so what do you see when when when  students are coming in and and then do you roll   your eyes or not well I do roll eyes a little bit  because I would say in particular at The Graduate   School of Business we see a lot of people who  are more enamored with notion of Entrepreneurship   whether or not it's a particular idea that they  know going in about what they want to explore yeah   you'll see students whether they're undergrads or  even people at The Graduate School level they see   it as a 2 threee period to explore ideas and  explore opportunities that may they might try   something on and then discard it and try something  else so you don't have a lot of people who say I'm   coming back cuz I want to do something specific  they're trying to figure out how to exercise the   muscles to figure out what they want to go into  I think perhaps one of the concerns that I see   is what's made I think Stanford and Silicon  Valley so successful the last 20 to 30 years   it's not clear to me these are going to be  the issues that we're going to be facing as   a society and AS Global Business Leaders for the  next couple of decades so I know that we're very   very prominent in entrepreneurship and all the  skills and classes and things that we teach the   students I have to wonder however if the issues  that are facing the future Generations over the   next 20 and 30 years in business I'm not I'm  pretty convinced they're not going to be kind   of the challenges that we saw the last 20 years  and I think it's important that we're making sure   that we're giving the next generation of leaders  the tools they need to be successful on a global   basis yeah so when you were explaining some  of the differences I another question popped   into my head do do today's students that you're  seeing do they understand the the the weight or   the gravitas of those that came before them do  they get a sense that they are standing on the   shoulders of giants in the tech space or do they  not know about the history you know I I worry that   how I'm going to answer this question I'm going  to sound like Clint Eastwood and shake my fist   get off of my lawn but I would say broadly written  no I don't think that today's Tech leaders really   understand you you look at people like hulet and  Packard and Bob noise these were people who went   and served in Washington in both Democratic and  Republican administrations when they were called   to do so by their government and if we look at  the tech leaders that we see today I don't think   they really understand uh some of the the broader  issues about you know how Society is shaping up   a lot of it is shaped it seems predominantly by  a lot of their self-interest and I think one of   my my worries about Silicon Valley is that  people want to come here for the Gold Rush   kind of want to come here to become a leader  but what does that really mean to be a leader   you know we we have a I think a dir of Statesmen  and States women and stewards of organizations uh   especially as the money has become so big and the  implications have become so big that I worry that   we might be training a generation of leaders who  are a little bit too focused on you know have I   put a dent in the universe have I done something  that allowed me to build something that was so   huge econom ially without thinking of some of  the implications of the products and services   that get sold into society is that is that a nice  way of saying that everyone is just chasing the   money and they they they go into this going yeah  I just want to be a tech billionaire by the age   of 30 I hate to use the word everyone okay but  yeah I know and I am talking in generalities   and stereotypes so but exactly because we talk in  generalities and stereotypes you know on the plus   side teaching at Stanford is like teaching at the  United Nations right my students are brilliant and   they come from all over the world you know you  see men and women from every continent in front   of you and I think one of the things that I try to  kind of guide them towards us thinking about in a   world where every product and service is connected  as we talk about every company's a tech company   what's the implication of action and reaction  of when data and information is Flowing you   know inside of a company or between your company  and your ecosystem as you're Crossing Borders you   know it's not just the men and women who large run  large multinationals who are dealing with with you   know a global Society even smaller companies will  cross borders and you have to be thinking about   what are the issues of the people on the other  side of the world and in these other countries   what are they going through how do you navigate  through cultural issues uh legal issues uh all   the Dynamics that come along with us and I think  one of the things that's critical for the next   generation of future Tech leaders is even if you  see a split between the US and China and we see   kind of different Tech Stacks that will develop  in the likes of this people are still going to be   Crossing borders I mean you and I right now think  about the technology that we're using I'm here in   my television Studio I mean my home office which  was designed during the pandemic I teach people   all over the world from this location or from  the Stanford campus much less being on campus   with people and with students right and so we have  to be thinking about what are these reactions and   the interconnectedness and what does that mean for  the products and services that we sell yeah and I   guess in the future at some point we'll be doing  uh arvr uh interviews with with people and so   that'll change the dynamic of how I react versus  how I'm reacting with with cameras and screens   right and whether it's AR and VR and I'm a little  skeptical you know just because I think some of   the Dynamics of what we have on our heads you know  will that really create a great experience yeah   but it is going to be and so for example you and  I will sometimes be with people in person having   conversations sometimes I'll be in a classroom  sometimes I'll be doing this and as we think about   this how will we as Leaders make sure that we can  adapt and be successful both in a a physical and   in a digital domain right so as we look at the  best companies they combine digital and physical   and they have the ability to do both well we  as individuals actually need to kind of mirror   that Duality inside we can't just be internal or  external we can't just be thinking about whether   we are you know thinking about our local market or  our Global context you know I one of the courses I   teach at Stanford is called systems leadership  and the idea behind being a systems leader is   being able to not only understand this action  and reaction but also being able to master this   Duality inside how do we think about geography or  sphere of influence how do we think about managing   people with both strength and empathy how do  we think about how we prioritize operational   excellence as well as managing Innovation at  the same time right if company had both of those   competencies in the past they were often kept  separate I believe that on a go forward basis   we as individuals need to have to master this  Duality so that we can leave the next generation   of leaders for the next couple of decades so you  jumped ahead of me a little bit and got a book   coming out that describes this systems leadership  idea um and I and I think you you gave a great   explanation of what what this means but when did  you discover that that this was changing that   that there was a shift in this mindset um towards  towards systems leadership well about seven years   ago my old boss from GE Jeff IML uh rang me up  and he was in the process of transitioning out of   the CEO role and we started talking about types of  classes we might be able to collaborate on and the   idea behind systems leadership was first started  with this blending of digital and physical and   how do leaders think about it but what's happened  in the last 6 to S years we saw it with the rise   of covid and the pandemic where it became about  crisis leadership and now we see the the rate of   technological change only going up exponentially  like you talked about Ai and so what we see as a   world where the rate of technological change in  is not slowing down and it seems like we're in a   constant crisis and that leaders no matter what  they do they feel like they're going to get it   wrong they're pulled by these cross pressures in  180° opposite directions and if they get it wrong   they're going to get canceled or they're going to  get fired and the speed with which they can keep   up with things feels like it's almost impossible  and so this idea of systems leaders is we started   studying great leaders from all over the world  about how were they navigating through these you   know rapid changes you um Alvin Toffler wrote the  book Future Shock in 1970 yeah and in that book he   talked about the speed of technological change  and he predicted fast fashion and the move the   cities and the personal computers and it kind of  boggled the mind he coined the phrase information   overload he said that we as humans can't keep up  with the speed of change and if you think about it   that was 54 years ago and it's only gotten worse  since then right yeah it's think of the speed with   which AI has hit in the last you know 18 months  since chat GPT was launched and every industry is   being impacted by this if you're a business leader  and you're trying to like hit your monthly and   quarterly numbers now you've got to think through  how do I take these new technology and bring it in   so Jeff and I really started to look at this and  try to understand more what are the best practices   what are the problems that that people are facing  and how do they navigate through it I don't think   that anything's going to slow down I think things  are going to only speed up and so the question is   how do we give systems leaders the right tools to  make sure they can see this action and reaction   you we talk about things like having a product  manager's mindset understanding what's going   on outside of the building as well as what's  going on inside we talk about the ability to   see connections you know between how do different  um um you know parts of Technologies how can they   be applied in other areas that create new business  opportunities because with technology you have the   ability to move from one area to another area a  best example of that is kind of what Apple did to   Nokia uh you know destroying basically finland's  greatest technology company ever in a matter of   years just because they invented the iPhone and so  if you have this going on how do you as a leader   understand these Dynamics how can you be thinking  through them and then how do you manage your teams   in a world where you've got to like speak up on  social issues or not you've got to navigate in a   highly polarized world it's a non-trivial task  for today's Business Leaders is this something   that a a a current business leader can adapt to  or do you think that systems leadership is going   to be adopted by the next generation of of leaders  such as the people that are in your your classroom   uh or is it something that can be learned you know  at this level you know someone is a is a director   a manager an owner of a company that has been  working for the last 20 years or 30 years it's   absolutely something that can be learned like you  know it's not like anybody has to bend light in a   way that light's never been bent before that would  be hard this is about us learning and constantly   saying how do I continue to improve myself how  do I continue to learn new skills how do I be   open to new ideas and what's hard for us is we  get more senior in organizations you know we got   promoted and we got raises because of how we did  things in the past and when suddenly that doesn't   matter anymore it's can be very disconcerting for  us as individuals the younger generation they're   not constrained by the past on the other hand  there are things that repeat themselves over and   over again so hopefully the experience of of you  know leaders who've been around for a while they   can bring their pattern recognition and things  that they've learned but they have to have the   mindset to say I actually need to train myself  on new technologies and new way of doing things   you there's four key technologies that I think  are impacting every function every company for   artificial intelligence additive manufacturing  analytics and Automation and my question for   leaders is often are how are you keeping yourself  current on these areas do you understand how they   impact your function and your team and so I think  that's you know the long answer that I've been   giving is you know kind of can be summarized of  you got to be willing to change and stop doing   what you've been doing and be willing to learn  new things yeah and how often do you see that   happening though though some people are better at  it than others I mean I think it's usually when   like the world passes Us by that's when it gets  very scary yeah I can think of at least twice   in my career where I had been on the Forefront of  technology and suddenly the world had changed and   I had to adapt and that's very frightening for  an individual and and I think by the way if we   think about globalization like globalization we  we moved through Labor Arbitrage we moved jobs   to other parts of the world and we didn't retrain  our labor force right you know and so that's led   to a rise of global popul whether it's trp in the  United States oraro in Brazil or yellow vest in   France and Business Leaders are at the Forefront  of this so they need to be thinking about how are   you going to be retraining both yourself and your  labor force so that you can make sure you stay   current because education can't keep up with this  speed of change yeah yeah all want to jump back to   the the entrepreneurship angle especially when we  we look at you know Silicon Valley over the last   20 30 years did is there still a place in this  world for that that two you know two people in a   garage uh entrepreneur I mean that was the huet  and Packard right and and even Steve Jobs there   was that idea of of you know building something in  a garage with with someone else and and building a   company is is there still that going on in Silicon  Valley or is it more of the i' I've got a bunch   of ideas and instead of starting in a garage I'm  just going to go get a lot of Angel money and then   build it from there because the angel invest that  was relatively recent right within the last 10 15   years well I think there is still this notion of  two people in a garage um this idea of a couple   of people starting and tinkering on ideas the  question is can they do it with their own capital   or or without capital and can they can they live  through this or do they need to get capital from   other people and so almost everything still start  small we read mostly about these humongous seed   rounds you know of $40 million or whatever the  case may be but those are outliers the average   entrepreneur is actually trying to figure out  what's the product how do I find product Market   fit what problem am I solving and maybe they end  up raising money from Angels so that they can you   know eat because Silicon Valley is an expensive  place to to to try to pay rent and put food on   the table but I think it usually does start with  something small every kind of innovation really   starts small but we read about Sam Alman and we  read about these rounds that are so humongous but   those are really outliers and a lot of that's also  driven by the business model of venture capital   where you're playing for disproportionate  Returns on the you know efficient Frontier   of risk and reward so I I think the question we  have to ask ourselves is what does the average   person do versus what gets written about in Tech  Crunch and you can certainly blame the media for   a lot of that too I mean we put spotlights again  we were celebrity chasers for a lot of these these   stories and the you know again we're we're we're  going after a world that's looking for clicks   and Views and all that other stuff it's it's  very hard for me to just do a profile on you   know the average person right well the business  the business business of media is a business and   that's neither bad nor good and so the question  is what you you have to serve up to people what   they want and what's going to get people to engage  for better and for worse and so you know from the   academic side our job is to try to understand you  know what is it that kind of breaks down the the   repeatable patterns or the lessons or the tools  that we can give entrepreneurs as they're building   their companies but you know what you and I are  going to spend most of our time going through   is how do we understand kind of like what people  are saying online is Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg   getting into a cage match is that normal like  is that really what leadership is today right I   don't happen to think so even if that's what gets  the most press there are a lot of great leaders   out there who by any figure of Merit are hugely  successful in their organizations and they have   tens of thousands of people reporting to them  and they put food on their table and they sell   products that that people buy but they are not  these kind of you know out their leaders they just   don't get written about that often but they're  there I I since you brought up you know the   the musk the musk culture and and and some some  might say Donald Trump has the style as well   um there's you know the Mark Zuckerberg's of the  world they're getting headlines for that the the   style that they have which is the do it my way or  else you know style of leadership um and what I'm   afraid of is two different things is you know is  it possible for a leader to run their company like   this or does this attitude only work because they  have the the I don't give a crap money is what I'm   going to call it um and so they don't you know  that's that's what they have a lot of money so   they don't need to worry about that and then what  I'm worried about is someone who doesn't have all   that money they start thinking that that's the  the business leadership style that's going to   get results for their company and I guess the  the biggest analogy I have is uh bill bich with   the New England Patriots I'm a New England guy you  know here whenever he had a coach that would then   get a head coaching position somewhere else they  tried that whole bill bellot mentality and they   failed miserably so is is there an equivalent  Silicon Valley where people might think oh Elon   Musk is so successful so I'm going to I'm going  to be that way with my employees you know Elon   Musk and Steve Jobs are amazing leaders and what  they've accomplished truly kind of you know every   few people a century that are like that they're  you know outliers whether somewhere between six   and 18 Sigma to the right of the mean they don't  count and they can get away with that because   like let's face it Elon Musk lands rockets  on barges in the middle of the ocean that's   pretty cool that's not you and me right and the  average leader kind of needs to find her or his   own voice for how they're going to lead their  teams and we have to also be aware of the fact   that there are some we can talk about stereotypes  of generations I say this without any Prejudice   Generations are different Boomers were different  than Gen X which were different than Millennials   which are different than gen Z because their lived  experience has been different how they interacted   with technology what their experience was like in  education K through 12 or his undergrads is very   different and as they enter the labor force or as  they enter even the grad school level you know we   as as managers and as Leaders need to understand  how do I understand where they are but at the same   token like you've got to be accountable for  delivering results and everything else you're   going to have to find that blend so I would say  that the idea that you are just going to be you   know cracking the whip at all times and I'm Elon  Musk well he can get away with it cuz he's Elon   eff and musk but for the rest of us we got to  find ways to motivate team you talked about   Bill bellich um Nick Sabin let me go to another  football coach yeah friends of Bill bich too by   the way right yeah and by the way there's a great  you know interview set of interviews that they did   with each other that talked about their leadership  styles coach Sabin talked once about how you know   a decade ago he would tell a player what to go do  and they'd go do it and now he says I have to tell   the player what to go do but also why because you  know he the players are just different than they   were 10 years ago and he's got to figure out how  to be effective to get the results that he wants I   think we as Leaders always need to grow and change  but also need to understand the dynamic of what's   going on around us so I would say holding putting  musk and jobs up there is that's my going to be   my management style no that's their management  style right need to understand like what are ours   and how do I get the type of results I need of a  team you coach different athletes differently we   should be leading different leaders differently  and you need to as a leader kind of have that   blend of strength and empathy you you want to show  your team a strong leader but you also can like   still you know see that they let them see their  your humanity and you can see their Humanity yeah   I a lot of great leaders I'll be writing about  in the book that were kind of great examples   of that where they were able to show like these  this these are nobody's pushovers on the other   hand you know it's a false choice between being  ambitious and being kind do do you see a lot   of leaders that have that self-reflection  capability cuz I I don't know how many of   leaders would would be able to look at themselves  going you know I do have problems that I need   to work on it feels like most leaders you meet  they're like yeah I'm the best and I and I'm going   to and I'm gonna succeed no matter what I I don't  read about those people online but they show it in   the classroom okay and that's one of the advantage  of being on the academic side which is being on   the journalist side that that they will actually  talk through their issues and what they're going   through in ways that they can't when they don't  have to be on market now by the way they will show   strong you know strong points of view and strong  perspectives again these people aren't pushing   overs but they try to think you know really subtly  about you know some very often times very nuanced   topics how are companies that are located in the  United States going to deal with do you know doing   business in China or not or in certain parts  of the world or not and I find most of them to   be quite thoughtful and how they think through  it but of course that doesn't get clicks as we   talked about earlier and that doesn't always you  know kind of make them the the most high-profile   people but you know I get leaders in in you know  whether it's any body from you know the CEO of   Goldman Sachs to the head of mubadala in the  Middle East to even Steve bomber to even men   and women who are entrepreneurs from around the  world who will come into to my classes and they   will show very different styles and very different  perspectives for how they navigate through these   issues yeah yeah I want you to put your uh VC hat  on for a second I'm so take off your academic hat   and and you know you you are a venture partner at  a at a at a firm so is there still a mindset of   that you have to be in silic Valley in order to  succeed cuz I've seen it I've seen es and flows   where you get a lot of people that go oh there's  a lot of other investment companies out there in   the rest of the world in the midwest in the East  and you know all of these cities that claim to   be like like Silicon alley silicon desert silicon  you know all these other places um is there still   a mindset though for a lot of entrepreneurs that  well you know you got to be in that one you got   to be in that region yes or no at this point I'm  gonna say no but with an asteris okay that's fair   that there are certainly hubs of innovation that  are built in other parts of the world you talked   about silicon alley we see New York Munich  Shanghai you know there are like there are   parts of the world where there's a lot of really  interesting stuff going on like right now Riad in   Saudi Arabia is one of the most amazing things  I've ever seen given the transformation in that   country yeah but I will say however Silicon  Valley has a depth of infrastructure that   does not exist anywhere else and this was built  over 80 years right you have five major academic   research institutions that bring in young people  on a constant basis from all over the world where   new technological innovation is happening you  have a culture where failure is not vilified   that as long as you conduct yourself with Grace  and dignity you'll get another bite at the Apple   you have Venture capitalists you have lawyers you  have accountants so you have an ecosystem and by   the way Silicon Valley is kind of a village  right every our kids go to school together   you know the kids play soccer together people do  charity work together so that people get to know   so there's there's a rich that comes with this  place but is it necessary no is there a depth   of of talent and a depth of infrastructure here  that doesn't exist everywhere else absolutely is   that something that a future Tech leader if if you  come out and you're like well I I want to form a   company but I don't want to do in Silicon Valley  I want to I want to do it in in another city or   wherever they should still find that Community  however correct like you should find that   infrastructure however it exists right you know  one of the yeah I I I concur I think what's going   to happen in a world where everything's connected  I talk about the difference between globalization   1.0 and globalization 2.0 globalization 1.0 was  about Labor Arbitrage we put lowcost Manufacturing   in Asia we put lowcost customer service in India  lowcost software engineering in Eastern Europe   globalization 2.0 I think you're going to see  companies act more like NES mesh networks where   you'll have equal access nodes in various physical  locations which will be able to communicate unate   and collaborate far more efficiently than in  kind of a hub and spoke model and so I think   that you can certainly have a headquarters in  in a different location than Silicon Valley but   you might still have a Silicon Valley presence  to tap into the knowledge the capabilities and   competencies here and I think instead of having  kind of that Hub and spoke of a headquarters   and then some satellite offices I think you'll see  centers of excellence that will develop around the   world where people will be able to tap into Global  Talent and those those centers of excellence will   collaborate more like peers on uh on a go forward  basis and um I you know I wanted you brought this   up with the diversity of the of the students that  you're seeing as well does that mean that Tech bro   culture is is gone or go away or do you still  see that on in little spots and and Bubbles um   in is that a bad thing or a good thing well Tech  bro culture that is unkind to people who aren't   Tech Bros that's not good like there's kind of  no confusion on good versus bad and back 10 12   years at the height of tech bro culture where  you had basically engineering uh uh schools   who were basically graduating 90% male Engineers  like that was not a good and healthy thing right   but you know just it was not an inclusive culture  and I think that what you're seeing is that that   has really kind of uh changed and evolved as  you get more diverse entrepreneurs and the like   more more diverse investors and it's not as far  along as some people would like to see but it is   important I I think that what you're going to you  know what's going to happen is that you're going   to see as we get more successes more successes  globally more successes of entrepreneurs who don't   look like the archetype that will actually Foster  Innovation that'll Foster um you know people will   look up at somebody and say hey I look like that  person who's a tech leader that person's been   successful maybe I can do that and so I'm hopeful  now these things do take time to change and it's   you know probably doesn't change as quickly  as some people would like but on the other   hand like my classes are like they look radically  different than they did even you know 15 20 years   ago as to who's sitting in front of me so I'm more  optimistic than not right right right okay um and   I'm going to give you a chance to to make a little  bit of a controversial uh discussion here uh when   we were talking in our preall we we were talking  about that over the past two years you saw a lot   of companies that were shedding their staff in  through layoffs you still see companies that   it feels like that's the first option they go to  rather than another method if they need to either   hit number or looking at their staff um the reason  that was given to a lot of the people when you're   discussing these layoffs is well we over hired  during the pandemic but that was four years ago   and it feels like that that excuse is is wearing  thin so you know what is something else going on   here that that maybe people haven't thought about  in terms of why all of these layoffs continue to   happen well I think the over hiring was indeed  part of it but there were some other dynamics that   were happening the first is with the pandemic and  remote work you know you had a a situation where   a lot of people weren't showing up it is harder to  manage people when we don't see them on a frequent   basis that that's true for if we don't really  know kind of what they're doing how do we make   sure that people are actually performing to the  level that we need them to culture change right   we dealt with a lot of social issues and we dealt  with you know how is the ability for us to manage   people and to hold people accountable that became  much harder to do especially as we we thought   about how we did reviews not that everything was  perfect before but we've kind of been trying to   figure this out I think what you're seeing is you  know it became harder to shed staff especially at   a time when unemployment was at 3% you know people  would hold on to staff to kind of you know hoard   them if you will so I think that right now you're  seeing this as an excuse to basically coach out   people who are underperforming and by the way in  work and in life we have people who perform better   and worse and so I think what you're seeing  is a lot of this is kind of the it's working   it way through the snake over hiring was part of  it I think we moved away from good governance on   a lot of things by the way a lot of it we did for  the right reasons when the pandemic was here but   the pendulum takes time to swing back I mean I saw  it even going into the classroom okay we were on   zoom and then we were back in the classroom going  back in the classroom was not like it was right   before you know the the pandemic hit how I had  to you know connect with the students or how I   failed at connecting with the students they were  shaped by what happened during the pandemic how   were or my colleagues on our faculty enforcing  Norms or not right you know we didn't enforce   Norms during the pandemic we came back and a lot  of people didn't want to enforce Norms anymore why   cuz it's hard managing people is hard man telling  somebody they're not performing well that's never   fun laying somebody off not fun and a lot of  that didn't happen for many many years and so   now you're you're seeing a lot of that catch up  with itself all right so this is and I I'll take   the blame on this one but do you think that many  employees might not be as good as we thought they   were and that maybe they're taking advantage of  some of these new methods of of working and going   well you know I could work at home and you know  go and run out an errand if I needed to and um you   know this whole work life balancing and then then  being asked to shift back to an office mentality   there made be like well I don't really want to do  that because I was having such a good time being   able to run my errands and do you know only only  work 5 hours instead of eight for example or seven   I guess I'm going to say sort of yeah um I think  there are some people who took advantage of this   absolutely yes do I think that's widespread hard  to know I think you know the culture and Norms are   having to shift back and I think people will do  what they have to do to adapt um I also think that   we need to be kind of a kind of you know at a time  again where we weren't enforcing Norms PE a lot of   people got away with stuff now by the way there's  a flip side to this right if you have children   you know so you know how do you make sure like  if your school your school's closed what do you   do for child care right there are some advantages  that came out of this that we were able to see our   our teammates and our employees as whole people  and so I think by the way because we can do this   with communication and collaboration tools maybe  we need to find ways well wait a minute maybe we   do we can be more flexible and that can be a good  thing for our team I remember when Bernard Tyson   was running Kaiser Permanente he invested heavily  in technology way before everybody else did not   just as cost cutting but he realized you know if  I could do a 15-minute video call with my doctor   that's better than my having to drive 35 minutes  to the doctor's office sit in the waiting room   for 20 minutes then have my 15 minutes and then  drive home through traffic so there are times that   we can think about how do we use Tech to be more  efficient maybe not all the time but we should be   able to find ways well wait a minute how you know  what are the pressures that my employees are under   and are there times when I can be a little bit  more flexible and Technology allows us still to be   productive so so yes some people took advantage  of it but I also think how we think about the   future of work we also as Leaders need to be  aware of these things and figure out where's   that balance between the two right and I'm not  saying that that obviously people that have kids   are not going to have these problems and there's  certainly a an empathy that goes along with people   that have I mean I've got three myself and you  know the last 15 18 years I've been juggling all   this stuff um but what what what bothers me is  when I see stories that are in the Wall Street   Journal about um Mouse jigglers and and the  software that that makes it look like you're   working and then the companies respond to that by  putting monitoring software on uh on computers and   and so you have this balance and I think Wells  Fargo uh recently just let a bunch of people   go because these people were using these Mouse  jigglers um the software to make it pretend like   they were going to works and you know is that an  extreme or is this now becoming an attitude with   some workers is like well there you know I'm  working at home so I can get away with it more   versus when I was in the office and that's what's  concerning me I think it's an extreme and it makes   for a great story in the wallshot journal and by  the way I read the same story too right you know   so it's like we read it because it it titillates  and it's fun like oh my God I can't believe that   we get indignant on it okay but let me play with  the other side of this which is we have to think   about how do we use systems and how do we use  capabilities are we trying to you know put you   know stuff on our employees machines because we're  trying to kind of Moder them and like the Way   Frederick Taylor the way they design factories to  keep people in a very narrow box or do you build a   culture of accountability and responsibility see  to me I think it's it's there are different ways   to approach this the qu you know let's go back to  sports because you brought it up with Bill bellich   if you look at those Patriots teams they had the  this expression do your job right and the idea   behind this was is if you're the quarterback and  I'm an offensive lineman if you do your job and   I do my job we win we play for each other and my  job is to make sure that whatever I'm doing I am   doing it to the best of my ability that gets to  a culture of why are we doing what we do and so I   think what happens is is like we try to approach  this we are very clear on what our expectations   are and when people live up to it we reward them  for it and we win as a team when people don't you   know do what we need to do they have to be coached  off the team and that's true in business and so   the real trick is for every individual to find  where are the values where's the culture that   I want to work for and that's what I want to be a  part of it's a big world not every company needs   to be run the same way right right okay I I want  to jump back to the startup world for a second   do you see do you see companies where a technology  founder starts the company um and then can run the   business to a certain point but then can't bring  it to the next step you know or you know how does   a smart leader and a Founder know when it's time  to kind of give up the Reign and maybe focus on   the technology angle of it versus the business  angle of it I've seen this happen a lot of times   and and there there are certain Founders that are  like no no no I I can do this I can be someone   maybe that I'm not like how do they know when it's  time to to to kind of give up the Reigns you know   I've been in the valley for over 40 years and to  be honest with you I don't think this has changed   very much in the last 40 years I think it's  actually a human nature issue because you know   we like to think if we started the company and we  came up with the idea we should be able to scale   with the business and some leaders do scale some  leaders don't um Katrina Lake who was the founder   of Stitch fix used to ask this great question to  all of her for uh direct reports every year if you   were hiring for your job today would you hire  yourself MH and I think a great leader should   be willing to ask that of himself or herself right  it's like is my are my skills the right skills for   this company at this moment in time um and if so  great you keep going if we need to improve by by   the way even the greatest athletes in the world  have coaches right you know can you work with a   coach to help make yourself better or you know  has the the challenge in front of you kind of   out gr that which where you're great do not have  the right skills for the next phase and if so how   do you make a good transition as a leader and  it is a very unnatural act for human beings to   give up power like that's not a normal thing for  us to do yeah so you know when I talk to leaders   about this I'll often sit there and say are you  getting the results that the company needs and   Are you delivering the results and if not why not  and what are you going to do about it and and you   know as as a board member or as an investor  or a teacher and Mentor my job is to help the   leader be as good as they possibly can be but I  don't think it's just about Founders I think we   as humans like we hold on to what made us cre or  what we right it's the evolved person who says am   I the right person right now um and then there's  also like sometimes there's also there's the hard   times and I'm supposed to fight through it I'm  supposed to be resilient I'm supposed to be the   person who shows the world that they were wrong  and I was right and I'm the one who put a dent   in the universe and can see around corners which  gets to The Narrative of the hero's journey which   is so big part of what we talk about as Founders  and leaders and I think having that balance and   self-awareness like that's a hard thing for  people to do I tend to be very empathetic of   it but in the end if we deliver results we get to  keep our jobs if we don't results we don't yeah   it it you know you mentioned the hero's journey  it feels like what what was called main character   syndrome now too where everyone everyone believes  that they're the main character I and you are you   are the main character in your own story but  then they take it to the extreme which means   I'm the main character and all of the rest of you  are are my side characters or or My Sidekicks and   that's not how the world works the world the  world needs everybody to kind of get together   or work together on on a lot of things and it's  difficult because we generally don't tell stories   about kind of the side characters right there's  always the kind of the main character becomes the   the who we write about in the you know we see in  our movies we see on television we see about in   The Press about the great Business Leaders but  great Business Leaders will often say like teams   win championships not individuals and so like the  question for Business Leaders to think is how do   they build that right team and when's the point  of they they just need to improve themselves and   invest in themselves and when's the time they need  to say maybe like the stuff I enjoy and the stuff   that I'm good at maybe that's not the right fit  for right now um you know do you believe do you   play for the name on the front of the Jersey  or the name on the back of the Jersey yeah if   you play for the name on the front of the Jersey  well you should do what's right for the team I   don't know how this turned into a sports podcast  Rob I happen to be a sports fan so you open that   door Keith and I just walked right through well we  were mentioning the Patriots and of course we're   recording this on the day after the Celtics just  won the the championship in basketball and that   was their approach was this team concept a lot  more than a lot you see in the NBA um so there's a   lot of lessons you can learn from the the Celtics  as well absolutely as painful as that is for me to   say as a Lakers fan you you got to give a hat tip  to the Celtics that was a great team and a great   run see I thought you'd be a golden state Warriors  fan being up in the up in you know Northern   California there you know I'm a fifth generation  Californian but I actually grew up in Southern   California so the showtime Lakers that was the  team that I grew up with but by the way I can   definitely appreciate Steph and the team here for  their greatness and again as painful as it is I'll   give a hat tip to our friends on the paret floors  all right so again I'm I'm going to ask you to put   your VC hat on again and it wouldn't be one of our  podcast here if we didn't talk about generative   AI a little bit more so is is there going to be  a reckoning uh in this space around all of this   money that's going to these AI companies um a  correction maybe I mean I don't want to use the   the b word um you know are we heading for are we  heading for a b word a bubble burst okay so yes   yeah and this stuff's real okay like I have never  I work with companies all over the world I have   never seen a technology adopted so quickly by both  large and small companies and see it being applied   and experimented in many different ways like it  is this stuff is real how it's all going to sort   itself out we're in the early Innings and we're  still figuring it out um and did too much money   kind of flood into this and do we have valuations  that are ridiculous and make no sense oh dear God   yes yes and but now the question is you know and  by the that's normal in the hype cycle and and   so this is just another one of these hype Cycles  but I've got to tell you in my 40 years in Tech   I've never seen a technology you know be applied  so quickly be used so pervasively and so quickly   I mean even in how I teach right and I can see  my students using it and like for 24 hours I   fought it like nfw like the students like I want  them to they're just using it to not do the work   and then I realized it's an instrument they need  to learn how to play it and so I totally changed   my mindset on okay if you're going to use it I  want you to be better than if you didn't use it   and you you try to work with them to try to make  sure that they can figure out how to synthesize   and learn but apply the human in the loop uh  I see it with the large clients and even the   small clients that I work with and so like lots  of startups every startup was is an AI startup   but eventually you got to figure out how you're  going to make money other than just having a in   your company's domain well and it feels like the  the use cases and the end users are not adopting   it as maybe quickly as a lot of these companies  would hope um because they need they have they   need to have Revenue attached to it in order to  keep it running um do you see that eventually   changing where users will understand how to use  it in in their in their regular lives or in their   work lives or is it going to become a nichy uh  feature set within you know something that they're   working with my bet is that it's going to become  pervasive but it will be inconsistent to the speed   with which it gets applied um we're seeing we're  seeing the technology evolve so quickly you know   uh different you know generations of models  that come out and we're seeing you know how   they improve so substantively and then we'll see  companies like open Ai and the like starting to   charge for the you know the newer versions of it  and they're going to get people used to paying   at the same time the cost of the application  will go down right the compute costs will go   down as as you know semiconductor companies get  better at architectures that are more efficient   and more power efficient so we'll see a lot of  that will continue to happen um but it won't be   a a smooth line it never is it won't be yal X  Cub where it goes like this it'll be like this   okay and and we'll see ups and downs but but  I still think it's going to be a plot you know   very very prominent very very big all over the  world uh but you're going you know we'll see some   major blowouts and then we'll read about it in the  Wall Street Journal in the New York Times we'll   talk about it on on on podcast right so you don't  see it you don't see something happening down the   road where people just get sick of it and going  yeah it was it it it never really achieved the the   limits of the promises that they were making and  all of these people are just husters and they're   just trying to sell us they're trying to PT  baram us um no I I don't think this is nfts and I   I don't think this is blockchain which is still  broadly writ not widely used in a commercial you   know instanciation you know six seven 8 nine  years later after we've been talking about it   where there was so much hype with crypto and  everything else and maybe that will eventually   get there AI feels very very different than that  to me okay all right Rob seagull again thanks we   could probably talk for another hour uh on a lot  of these different topics uh i' I'd love to have   you back on the show at some point to talk more  about uh any kind of these educ ational topics   and VC stuff in Silicon Valley you're my like  my Silicon Valley guy now uh thank you so much   we would love to be back with you again and I  hope you and everybody there has a great rest   of your day all right thank you again thanks  Keith that's all the time we have for today's   episode be sure to like the video subscribe  to the channel add any thoughts you have below   join us every week for new episodes of today and  Tech I'm Keith Shaw thanks for watching [Music]

2024-07-04

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