Scaling Connected Vehicles with Over-The-Air Updates

[Music] hello I'm your host Grayson Bry welcome to another episode of SE tomorrow today a show about emerging technology and trends of Mobility with leaders and innovators to make it all happen on today's episode we're absolutely honored to be joined by hymon Sakara CEO and co-founder of cbos on today's episode hymon and I discuss the future of over the air updates what it means what the impact is and why the future of Automotive is bright we hope you enjoy this episode H welcome to the podcast thanks nice to be here it's it's great to have you here because we're going to get into a topic that's a big pet peeve of mine that more companies should follow the lead and you have the experience from your days at Tesla over the a updates they're magical the car go the car only gets better if you look back at older components and let's look at Sonos the Sonos so you buy the Sonos and they have the software update it only gets better they're putting all new compression algorithms with their audio you buy a Tesla and with it's getting better there's new features outside of FSD there's still critical features there's app features that gets better why do more OEM not get to the realization we sell you a car we can sell you connectivity package and oh by the way it'll only get better it's not going to start this cycle of uhoh it's going to get worse why are they not embracing this I think that over time I've seen more and more automakers embrace it but there's also a lot of execution challenges that come with it there's a mindset shift that is required there's a philosophy change there's cultural changes within the automaker so there's a lot of inertia and a lot of blockages that they have to work through before they can deliver something like this end to endend and they definitely do understand that this is an important aspect that the customers and the consumers care about it's a matter of delivering that to them it all started with sort of developing and delivering infotainment updates and that's what majority of the automakers are able to do so but that's not what Tesla does that's that's maybe 1% of what Tesla does the updates right it it it's all about the rest of the vehicle whether it's a EV or a combustion engine whether it's a truck or a car or a motorcycle they all have different components different electrical control units that have software that need to be updated and that needs to be orchestrated that needs to be coordinated because it drives the vehicle it's it's a critical function of the vehicle and that's why it's also hard to do it because it's such a complex system to to to solve complex problem to solve you have a lot of coordination or if you're you're there and you're you're leading the orchestra you have to you know okay we need more bass we need more flute whatever it might be is that another layer software is that where cose comes in do you become the band leader and you're telling okay we're going to update component a we're going to update component B do does your software become that band leader yeah essentially you could think of us as a band leader but we're also playing an instrument at the same time so we're we're we're doing multiple roles and in some cases we might be a one one person band Meaning there's no one else that the OEM is relying on so we're delivering the whole end to-end solution in other cases we may only be playing an instrument we may not be doing the full orchestration either because they may have already built their orchestration layer and some of their management layer internally and we can help provide certain tools and certain infrastructure to augment what they already have so that it's a more comprehensive solution so there are multiple ways that we can work with automakers and each automaker is different they're at a different point in their Journey and we we want to make it so that it's flexible for all of them to be able to get to having a better sdv solution even if you look at some let's call them the traditional automakers that are starting to let's say dip their toe in the water when it comes to the overair updates they still have this Fascination that the wi-fi at my house doesn't work and I have to go to a dealership to do an overthe a update I don't understand that you Tesla you just connect it to your Wi-Fi and you get a push notification says okay please know you can't drive the vehicle for $6 minutes we have to update you you opt into that it gives you the very nice countdown but I traditional am oh you have to go to the dealer because he's professional he give me a break we update our iPhones which is a very complicated Machinery why do you think some oems are taking this one foot in one foot out approach to over the updates when if you look at the consumer data they clearly want to be able to update their vehicle on their own when they want exactly right I I I think it's more just a transition phase before they get to be more like Tesla and the consumers are very loud and sharing their feedback with with the automakers now so I do think it will happen more quickly as long as the automaker has the capability to do it do you see a point where the consumer can push that automaker say listen if you're not going to embrace us we're just going to go buy your competitor's vehicle and all suddenly sales start going down does it look we saw it with electrification if you you I could make a very profound argument if it wasn't for Tesla we would not be having an electric vehicle conversation today yeah and I can make the same argument for over the air and then for FSD and going down the line as more of the let's call traditional oems go into software does that start to force the hand perhaps absolutely I think that even within our team of employees at cose we've had so so many people that have switched between Brands because they had a poor software experience with their previous vehicle and I think it's an eventuality that the consumer will be able to have more impact and and have more saying to what the automakers are doing I do think that consumers today already have a voice in this and the automaker may just not know why their sales are plummeting or or or changing but this is one of the contributing factors to that right having a good software experience it's not just the OTA it's also the software experience kind of to what you mentioning about Wi-Fi and and and Tesla you know I have my Tesla but I don't park my vehicle at near a Wi-Fi area it's not connected to my personal Wi-Fi so it routinely notifies me that hey it it would be better if you could connect to your Wi-Fi right but at the end of the day if many weeks pass and I have not connected to my Wi-Fi it will still deliver the update anyway using cellular bandwidth so Tesla does try to reduce their own cost if they can but at the end they do care a lot about the consumer experience and they take on that additional cost for the few perc maybe 5 10% of owners that do not live close to a Wi-Fi connection right so I I do think that the shift is happening and we're seeing that across the industry you hit the nail on the head on that one you didn't have to go to a dealership or or the or the Tesla showroom to update it you were able to do it over sell because that goes back to the user experience when do we get to a point in your opinion where every model year vehicle both tra traditional om and inur OEM such as the rivan are are being able to be updated over the year is there is it 203 2032 do you have any insights of when you think based on the cose platform and the Insight that you have that all these vehicles will be able to be updated Over The Air I had a prediction on this and I was wrong so I when I started the company in 2018 I was very confident that there's no way there's going to be any automaker that isn't doing Tesla style self updates and full vehicle updates calibration parameter updates setting out new features collecting good data from the vehicles with user consent and privacy in mind of course but doing all of these things to me were a no-brainer and I was very confident that we would get that get to that point by 2025 we're now at the end of 2024 and I can confidently say there are less than a half dozen automakers globally that have a comprehensive solution that can deploy updates to more than just the infotainment system that can do it reliably that do it that use it reliably and regularly and can do it cost effectively I I think Tesla does it very cost effectively for them it's very easy to push out an update because they've really streamlined the whole end to end process but we've talked to a lot of large automakers which spend a lot of money and a lot of manual effort because of their methodology of doing things is different from how we do it and how Tesla does it right so so I think that leads to this problem of not being able to use software updates more regularly and I think we're probably another four five years out and and I hope that this time I'm wrong again and that it's earlier than that but that's right now from all our conversations happening in the industry and all the things we see it seems like it's still far away it's unfortunately far away we we want it to be sooner cuz it's it's a better consumer experience what can over the a updates unlock for oems this is more theut tral OEM outside and I and I'm sorry I got to give this dig outside of selling your subscription and turn your heated seats on that was a bad move but out outside outside of that fuxa or that mistake what can they truly unlock for Global oems yeah I think there a couple of things from a software update perspective one is to reduce physical recall so you don't have to go go to the dealership that's a big one and I think there's two pieces to that first one itself right you can't just do an update and call it a day you actually have to collect data from the vehicle to prove that the update fixed the problem that existed so in my case I used to have a non-tesla vehicle at some point in the last seven years and that vehicle got recalled for a software update I scheduled an appointment took it into a dealership it was a security related recall it took me a month to get it scheduled because there were hundreds of thousands of vehicles that were affected so that was a frustrating experience I knew I was driving an unsafe vehicle I had no choice once I got the update I thought it the problem's gone away 6 months later I got another recall from the same automaker for the same issue because they realized that they didn't actually fix the issue and if they had the ability to do over the a updates and collect data to prove to themselves and to the federal government that they've actually fixed the problem then they could have avoided that second recall they or they could have sent out a software patch a second patch to to fix the problem right um so I I think that's that's number one of many things that the oems struggle with and you know so so yeah I hope that answers your question think about the large amount of expenditure that cost the OEM and think about all the the productivity loss from a Time perspective of you having to make the appointment go in there it's it's highly inefficient where the software can just scale it is do you think traditional oems take that we don't trust you route because they hide behind cyber security when you and I both know that there is ways to do it safely today do you think that becomes the Boogyman and if it does how do we overcome that from a cyber perspective to where the OEM trust it I I actually think that getting an update at their dealership makes me more nervous than getting it over the air and I I'll just share my thought process behind this when I took my vehicle in they said hey we have to pull apart panels from the door I said what you have to you can't just connect to the OBD port or to some other like way to the can buus in the vehicle and I said no we have to pull these panels apart because it's it's a a network that is not visible at the at the OBD Port okay so they pulled up hard these panels they plug something in they do the software update they put the vehicle back and then they say well just to be sure we're going to have our technician go for a test drive of the vehicle to make sure everything works well that is extremely scary to me that I now depend on the quality control of a technician that does not necessarily know what the update was for and what to check for why can't that be a more controlled process and the validation for that update be done beforehand by the automaker and usually what we hear from the automaker is hey validation is very complex and and we have so many combinations of vehicles and components we can't test everything and then that's that's fair but I do think that there's a you can follow the Paro principle and and cover 80% of the typical vehicle builds and test for that with a small Fleet of 100 or a th000 vehicles and then roll it out to to a bigger Fleet so I actually think it's it's less safe to to do an update in the dealership and then the second part from a cyber secur perspective I think that cyber security is going to be a bigger and bigger topic as Vehicles become more connected if you look at the event that Tesla did recently with you know their supervised full self-driving uh vehicles and and and sort of their other new events and new new things that they're launching they can't do that without sort of admitting that there's a cyber security element to it right there's a you know if a weo can drive you and it can take you where you want to go it could also easily take you where you don't want to go you know if someone does control the entire vehicle Network so there's a lot of consideration at the vehicle level and at the fleet level from a cyber security perspective that we will all learn over the years but it definitely is a big Focus for us to make sure that this system is secure and we've implemented certain things like the uptain standard uh which is used quite extensively to to protect Vehicles during software updates and and reduce cyber security risks but there are a lot of things that everyone can and should do to minimize the impact of cyber security on on vehicles from a Cal's perspective how much encryption are you using on the vehicles both on vehicle and during the update process so we have in the vehicle we use typically the HSM which is a Hardware based security module and we store keys and um in in the HSM and we also use um TLS we use sort of the industry best practices and we also work with some sort of more sensitive type of vehicles let's just say and and for those Vehicles we need to have military grade encryption at you know and and for the data that we collect it has to be encrypted at rest in the cloud and we have to have different keys for each vehicle different keys for each component in the vehicle so that we cannot accidentally do something um even if someone is able to hack into a compromise part of our system we want to minimize the attack surface area and and that's what we do using an implementation of the uptain standard which is becoming an ISO standard as well obviously it the data Gathering we we we know across the board commercial military it's called civilian consumer they're all Gathering data when going back to the band leader do you say okay we're going to the vehicle is going to collect this amount of data are you going to play this instrument how does that work in in terms from from a data Gall standpoint since obviously on the defense you have National Security interest on the consumer side you have privacy interested on we're going to get this a minute but on the off-road you have interest how is the tillage how is the soil so you have different types of data that you're trying to ga how you cose as a band leader do you determine what data that you're giving to your customers great question so we think of ourselves more as the orchestrator but the music that needs to be played is determined by the automaker that kind of go on your analogy there so what that means is that we provide the ability to play any kind of music and the OEM can choose what music they want to play so the the automaker can choose what data they want to collect and at what frequency based on what events are happening in the vehicle they make all of these configurations in our front-end web portal and from there they can deploy that to a fleet of vehicles and the the vehicles then can immediately start collecting the data that the automaker wants so someone can run a a data campaign to analyst can run a data campaign on the cloud to say hey I want to see how many how many two-seater convertibles that we have in our Fleet which typically go on rides with two people right how how often is the passenger seat occupied okay well they can make a configuration to say if vehicle enters the drive State the drive gear if the occupant sensor on the passenger passenger side is is enabled that means there's a passenger raise this event and report it to the to the cloud so now you can collect this kind of data from the entire fleet and say okay 52% of rides happen without a passenger and 30% of rides in the morning happen with a passenger or we see more weekend drives where there's a passenger on the on the in the vehicle so that's one example but they can collect any type of data that they want not just occupant sensor data but battery data other data there's a element of user privacy and user consent and because of AI those challenges are becoming more and more intricate so typically what was considered personally identifiable information or pii was the VIN number of the vehicle and GPS coordinates that's kind of how it started back in the day now based on the driving pattern and and the seat positions and the music preferences you can very easily identify who that driver is and so more and more of the vehicle data is becoming pii personally identifiable and so there's a lot of challenges and it's it's a Uncharted Territory for most oems and we help with that because we have certain consent policies that are built into our platform and that are also very flexible for the autom to publish to the end consumer and the end consumer can say I don't want you to collect any data okay we're not going to collect any data I want you to collect only battery data okay we will collect only battery data or you know so there's certain refinements that they can do for collecting certain spe specific sets of data that can then help the automaker improve their product or improve security or run a new campaign to launch a new feature that they think that their customers or consumers want is any of that data being used to help to lower maintenance cost since the maintenance cost on certain types of vehicles is very very expensive I would say that we were doing quite a bit of that at Tesla before I even when I was there which was you know8 nine years ago at this point and we see a lot of automakers talk about it and they want to do it but really haven't seen as much as we would like to to on that front one of our Solutions that's really exciting that we provide is the customer which is our the automaker can set up these events for certain things that are happening in the vehicle and based on those events trigger a notification to a service center or a you know a common sort of global Service Center which can say oh this problem has been identified on this vehicle they can call up the customer and say you have this problem happening and we would like to do a software update to fix the problem or we want you to come into the dealership to get this problem fixed we've already ordered the part and we will make sure that it um is ready for you so yes it's terrible that the consumer has to do something that there's a problem but at the end the consumer's also happy that their vehicle was proactively being taken care of by by the automaker and that they got a great consumer experience so this is something that can be done and then they can also use remote commands through our platform to remotely diagnose the problem so if there's a a warning lamp that's on in the vehicle they can send certain codes or commands down to the vehicle securely and either clear the diagnostic trouble codes or request for more information and then determine what to do to solve the problem so there's a lot of things that can be done to do preventative maintenance but we don't see enough of that today from the automakers but we're seeing more and more of our customers be able to use our solution to to solve this problem and connect different pieces of data and create a better consumer experience why do you feel that your customers are leaning into this when the oems are not necessarily leaning into it I I think that the oems typically see everything from a software perspective or anything after the vehicle has been manufactured and sold as a cost center and that's a very big problem which prevents that's a mindset shift that needs to happen Tesla does not see it that way and that is why Tesla will proactively take on additional costs to deliver a great consumer experience and keep pushing the limit on their brand and the brand loyalty that they have and that's a a systemic problem at the oems it you know the CFO has to buy into this cost the you know the procurement the engineering the product the CEO the board the shareholders have to buy into this yes we will have an additional cost and but that additional cost is an investment into securing our future and our brand and I think without that system shift happening they're going to struggle with this you're right the because then the goal of an oem today not tomorrow but today to sell vehicles tomorrow I believe it's going to be sub subscriptions because then you have to build that loyalty and then your consumer gets hooked on say the Tesla experience they're not going back to another vehicle what do you mean I don't have a key this thing just works okay why can't other vehicle and they start to challenge and question the status qu especially I've seen it with with older individuals you're gather your customers are gathering a immense amount of data there's one industry more than anything that loves data for their underwriting on the actory tables is Insurance are there any insurance implications to all this data that you're Gathering potentially helping to lower the cost of insurance or get better underwriting any insurance implications I would say that insurance is a very specific use case and example and the data set that they would need is very specific and it would have to be coordinated between the insurance underwriter as well as the automaker and the end consumer to deliver something of value I think the technology pieces are there we have those blocks in place and we know some other automakers also have their own internally developed blocks that are in place but there isn't one sort of easy way to do this end to end and I think there's a lot of room and a lot of potential but I think they always M first have to collect the right data with insurance as a use case in mind before they can offer this to their consumer so for example today a insurance company using a phone or mobile app based insurance will use specific machine learning models and other things to determine that the vehicle what the vehicle speed is and whether the vehicle is driving or going in reverse and you know all of these things are actually just naturally available on the canbas or the ethernet Network within a vehicle and does not require any machine learning or AI but because they don't have access to that data is why they have to do all of this additional work there's a lot of other things that they could we could be collecting from vehicles to underwrite a better policy okay you're driving 65 M an hour on the highway and the front r radar says that you are less than 2 seconds behind the car in front of you which means that in case there was a emergency situation you have a high chance of collision okay based on that give feedback to the driver that your driving score is lower based on that and if you see that as a pattern reduce the increase their insurance premiums all of that data is available today it's just a matter of piecing it together and we can C that data but the insurance companies and the automakers have to work together to make it happen so they have to come together to make it actionable or is there something that you can deploy to make it actionable for that customer I would say it's a business thing so the insurance company has to say to the OEM look we want this kind of data we have a pre-integrated solution with cro backend apis if you were to use cose on your vehicle fet we would be able to collect this data we will pay you $10 per uh subscribed vehicle per month for this data and we will use that to to sell our insurance products okay so that's where the insurance company has to go sell or tell the automaker but the insurance company has to do an integration with us first and we have to do an integration with the OEM so there's a lot of pieces that need to come together for this and the insurance company has to believe that the the value is there for them and the OEM has to believe that yes we do want to do this and we do think that we want to get this additional Revenue it's worth our time to to invest into this right so it's more of a business challenge than a technology challenge at this point so in in simple terms SOS from in this case becomes the plum because if you look at some of the statements made by the global oems they're going to move to a subscription based service I've spoken to some very large Underwriters and they're going to the global oems are going to take the risk on their cap tables then reinsure it so in a scenario where let's call it Acme OEM is running an AV service they're selling it to you as a subscription for personally owned they're underwriting the insurance the cose plumet could could go in there essentially if the business case made sense and that's what the OEM wanted to do absolutely yeah that's right so that's getting interesting so that's the automotive side of your business outside of the automotive side of your business cuz that well covered are you looking at a that I led to earlier looking at off-road mining what what other Industries are you are you looking at because it seems to me that if you want to use the band leader term or the plumbing term that your software is very compatible across a variety of Industries yeah we we're pretty excited because we see a lot of potential in other Industries and other segments Beyond just the passenger vehicle vehicle segment and we found that the engagement model and how we work with different companies is very different so with the passenger vehicle oems we are taking more of a codevelopment model where we bring certain tools and products and and and code and they then leverage that and build things on top of it or use certain pieces of our of our product portfolio and they work with us to develop new features new capabilities that are unique to them so that's how we would see sort of more and more of the engagements happening on the passenger vehicle side because they typically have big in-house it and firmware and product teams and they want to have more control over this which is understandable so we we want them to have that control we are a sort of an accelerator for that Journey with other segments what we find is that the the automakers or the pass you know motorcycle manufacturers they don't have the in-house capability or knoow or interest in owning this kind of a solution end to end they would rather work with a company that provides the whole end to end holistic solution as a SAS offering and so our approach with those types of companies is that look we have our entire solution that we can offer you can use everything from our product portfolio and you don't have to worry about any of this critical infrastructure that you want we provide that for you so those are the two ways we engage and we've seen a lot of great momentum and traction from the motorcycles and from commercial vehicles commercial trucks and buses those are two segments where uh I would say in the US we've got a majority of the the names on our on our platform that are newer in in the in their Journey right so meaning any any provider that is starting their EV Journey typically uses us even though we're not limited to EVS so it's either new age oems that are you know startups I would say or it's larger companies that have an EV division that want to start us there and that's usually how we get a foot in the door they see good success there and then we expand further to to do you know the diesel trucks and and the you know other commercial uh Vehicles we're also seeing interests from companies that make jet skis and boats and mining equipment uh a Equipment tractors and we're seeing this traction happening across not just the us but across the European market as well as the Asian market and we've got a lot lot of momentum building in in those three yeah in those three geographies do you see the the momentum coming from from the these oems realize that the product must get better after selling it or they're going to go to their competitors is that what driving is or something else that's driving this yeah I I heard this quote recently which really struck with me about sort of softwar defined Vehicles what what it really means is the vehicle that you buy is the least good vehicle that you buy and that it gets better over time and it is in direct contrast with how we've thought about Vehicles up until now which is when you buy the vehicle it's the best it possibly can be and then as soon as it leaves the showroom it's depreciated and you start losing value and it's lower quality so I think because more and more things are being softwar driven the quality can actually improve the feature set can actually improve over time after the vehicle is bought and we're seeing this as a big mindset shift that the oems are trying to adopt but it's it's very difficult to change how things have been done for a century when you have 100,000 or more employees that are used to working in certain ways the the the very things that make made them suc successful based on the process and the culture they build are the obstructions for them to be successful in the future because now they need to change their process their mindset their culture to adapt a new way of doing things there's there is a new way of doing things and there's an old way of doing things which which is concerning to a lot of folks is Regulators as everything becomes software defined and connected what are the regulatory concern because obviously the software is moving a lot faster than The Regulators yeah I think there are a lot of regulatory challenges and it's a very fast evolving landscape because of AI and AI is also being introduced into the vehicles so there's privacy concerns there's security concerns and there's potential safety concerns because of the security uh concerns that might come up and there's a lot of good work that can be done from a regulatory perspective to bring a little bit more order to the chaos uh while also not holding down the industry from innovating and I think that's the balance that a regulator has to play is how do we make sure that Innovation continues but we establish routinely upgrade our Baseline of expectations and requirements from Vehicles without telling each automaker how they have to fulfill those specific uh requirement so I think Lan uh assist or emergency rare breaks those are great examples of regulations that have been rolled out which doesn't tell the automaker how to solve the problem but they just say these are the requirements that your vehicle has to meet from a safety perspective so I think the same thing can be done on a connected vehicle perspective to say we always need to know what are all the software and Hardware component components in every vehicle at any given time and so it's kind of like a software audit and have that available in the cloud at any time from any vehicle in the fleet and that's something that we we help provide too but the point is like there are a lot of things very basic things that are still missing and I would love to have more conversations with anyone in the regulatory space that we could help inform what what new regulation or policy can be put in place to help the industry move forward it's an important conversation to have it's that almost that if you can have a regulatory framework to work towards or the industry comes together say okay we're all going to work towards this then says okay if you work within this sandbox we'll allow and if you need to go outside the sandbox there there there has to be I'll use the term a a clear line of communication where the regulator can't put their head in the sand there has to be willingness to engage and we saw recently uh yesterday actually where the FAA approved Joby in the eeve TOs so that was a big regulatory breakthrough so the FAA can approve EVS but the do cannot approve autonomous vehicle framework so that I that I don't get and that I don't get but it and I'm not making a comment because this is not the right form to make a comment but it goes into having a conversation that's what we're we're doing here today and hopefully with with over the year updates more comments are made on that hamama in your opinion what does the future of overthe a updates look like I think it'll get to a point where we'll see more consolidation of Hardware happening in the vehicles and that will mean that the complexity of the type of software that's required will change it will not be less complex it'll just the type of complexity will change right now what we are working with with automakers they have anywhere between 30 to 12 different microcontrollers and components in the vehicle that they want to update so that's a different type of challenge over the years those components will get Consolidated and shrink and processors will get more powerful and we may end up with a vehicle that only has five or six really big BP processors that are managing all of the workloads and and we've seen some architectures and Tesla is also kind of accelerating that Journey um and kind of leading the way there but when that happens the complexity shifts from managing update dates on 100 components to five components but those five components now have multiple different operating systems they might be running Android qnx Linux U they might have bare metal or embedded you know processing capability and the ability to update all of those separate partitions on each of those control units uh becomes fairly complex and and so I think the complexity will shift and mold over time but I think that is probably more of the steady state that that we will see in the in the coming years I ideally it would be great to have just one com controller in the vehicle that controls everything but that's not possible mainly because the amount of wiring that would have to go from that one controller all over the vehicle to control the tail lights and the headlights versus having multiple distributed controllers sort of controlling each Zone that reduces the amount of wiring required so I think the steady state is probably like four or five big controllers that have supplier software in-house built software all running on sort of a standard middleware and and being able to control different functions like brakes and lights and security features or motor control features all from that same Hardware unit so I think I think that's kind of where I think things will go for passenger vehicles and commercial vehicles and and I do think that this will happen in the next 5 years and that's where the importance of a standardized software layer that you're building at cose comes in because you're going to allow the vehicles both commercial civilian defense to only get better over time H I learned a lot today this has been fascinating so thank you as we look to wrap up this insightful conversation what would you like our listeners to take away with them I I would say that the future of Automotive is very exciting and there's a lot of change happening and I would encourage more people to participate in the industry and in the conversation and help Drive the industry forward and software updates represents you know 1% of or or even less of the overall number of challenges and areas of innovation that the Auto industry can is experiencing and so there's a lot of room to make a big impact on on vehicles and how we move and yeah I I think the the timing couldn't be better for for more folks to be involved in the industry so that that's probably the sort of big I agree our listeners agree the future of Automotive is exciting I'll emphasize it's super exciting today is tomorrow tomorrow is today the feature of cbos hamont thank you so much for coming on sa tomorrow tomorrow today thank you so much thank you for listening to se tomorrow today be sure to join us next week for another episode of tomorrow today briefs of sustainability edor Roberto Baldwin Roberto will sift through the latest trends in the rapidly evolving Transportation sector as it transitions from fossil fuels to sustainable energy SAE International makes no representations as to the accuracy of the information presented in this podcast the information and opinions are for general information only SAE International does not endorse approve recommend or certify any information product process service or organization presented or mentioned in this podcast

2024-12-24 05:09

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