Psychological Safety in Open Source Projects

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We are live at cubec con North America Chicago  2023 this is devops dispatch my name is l San   Maria and I am a lead developer Advocate at Dell  for the like 0.5 people actually paying attention and my co-host is here. Hi I'm Kat Cosgrove and I am also a lead developer advocate here at Dell for the co-workers standing in the booth excellent and we have a lovely guest with us today   oh hi thank you for calling me lovely but my name Natali Vlatka and yeah I'm an open source architect for Cisco   specifically in their open source program office  very nice very nice there's a lot of Open Source   in there I think that's going to be part of our conversation isn't it I mean very likely very   likely I do like open source a lot I also love being ogled outside the booth by random people   which is taking place right now that's actually a very good friend of mine who is deciding that   he's going to photob bomb us every chance he gets  every time he walks past this booth and one of us   is in it he's pressing his face up against the  glass he thinks it's it it tickles in pain he   thinks it's very funny yeah he thinks it's funny  and Charming we think probably differently yeah   I just think it's entertaining yeah that's  fair cuz I'm also very very silly so that's   how it works but on that note so well not on that  note on a different note I guess sure um we would   like to talk about Community today an open source  and I hear that there was some discussions about   psychological safety we going to talk about  and everything do we want to how do we want   to set the scene well I mean firstly I just want  to feel like you know the the the great Vibes in   the room after the community awards that were just  announced here at cucon you know that felt really   good to kind of you know um recognize a lot of the  top contributors I want to shout out to my girl   Divia Mohan top documentarian my coair for special  interest group in uh documentation for communties   um but yeah I uh those kinds of awards and like  that kind of recognition doesn't come from just   like a smooth sailing journey in terms of like  Community work right and I think um when we talk   about having psychological safety and a lot of  the work that we do in community it's usually   around when there are like issues and challenges  that we need to face and how do we like solve for   those things and sometimes people aren't feeling  great about speaking up and maybe saying something   could not be could be interpreted in a way that's  like a dig or or or just like General criticism to   like a possible open source coworker that they  don't mean in that way but there's an issue we   want to solve it and they want to get to the  you know the outcome of everyone's working and   collaborating like in a in a safe space yeah it  can be difficult to figure out how to like break   down an issue that was like absolutely a result  of a person without making them feel bad toally   like we we do have to talk about it we do have  to sit here and figure out what went wrong and   how do we prevent that in the future and that  will require acknowledging that there was a   screw up right exactly and especially I mean  it's easier when there's Mal intent but it's   that's very rarely the case in those exactly  um and so how do you uh talk about that in a in   a just um in a productive way where it doesn't  feel like an attack or it doesn't make someone   feel not great um it's hard and I think uh um I  do want to um shout out to yourself cat actually   uh for um dealing with some of that in the last  comms really specifically with the Retro that we   held in S release and I think that was um that  was handled in a way where you know docs didn't   go well last release um in the way that we would  have liked um but uh you know uh cat props to you   for coming in and saving the day and like stepping  in there and then us being able to like talk about   hey as a community how do we uh solve for um as  humans we have lives outside of Open Source and   Things Can Happen things can drop off and the work  that we're doing in that specific moment maybe is   no longer priority and how to someone come in  step in take over and ensure that a release   can still happen docs can still get published um  and I think that was something that uh I think we   handled okay I'm also biased yeah yeah I mean we  I don't know that we'll know that we handled it   the right way until we uh are faced with that  situation again and handle it differently yeah   um but yeah how do we make somebody feel safe  enough to step back from an open source role Pro   actively before something becomes in their real  life becomes an issue enough that it impacts or   or how do we also help um people feel safe enough  to kind of um speak up when they think that work   isn't trending in the way that it needs to be like  we're going to actually be late with the release   or these docs aren't aren't getting published  on time or um my Shadows haven't done the work   that's needed like how can you feel safe to also  speak up about those things and claim that we're   in a yellow or red status right now in terms of  you know our deliverables that's something that   uh that's also really hard it is and it's in in my  case it was how do I speak up and say hey my lead   yeah has dropped a ball how do we move forward  and fix this because I don't know what I'm doing   right right yeah I mean I mean I think also it's  um uh as a as a as the as the Sig lead that really   appreciated that you stepping incat I think that  was um something where uh the the bias to action   of wanting to actually like fix the problem added  more than you knowing what you needed to do um   and I think that was something that uh you know  we have a lot of documentation outlining what   needs to happen a lot of people ready to put um  their hands and their time and their fingers on   keyboards kind of thing to um uh to make sure  that really still happened on time uh but just   like someone willing to kind of step in and fill  that Gap that was like the the important thing   and I think that's a um something in community  in general and going back to the awards today   that that is clearly like recognition clearly  does happen for those kinds of things um and uh   also shout out to K again for getting an award  for her great work the last release too andri   suit yeah surprise I mean as somebody who I run  a bunch of different conference or help organize   various different things and so I often have  leads who they're really excited they want to   help and then something happens and right part of  it is also being proactive as the lead and saying   like hey are you doing okay do you need help and  if they say no and I know better it's kind of a no   really do you need help yeah wink wink nudge nudge  I will help you and I won't tell anybody that you   need any help and it's fine that's a great Point  too because I think uh we are it's really easy   to say oh your status update is green so I don't  have to pay attention to you everything is fine   exactly trust but verify exactly exactly right  and I think that's and and there's a way to do   that where it doesn't feel like micromanaging and  overreaching as well right um but also as let's   say the um release lead for for that cycle like  part of that is your job um but also part of it   is you know again there's that trust but there's  also hey you know other hopefully other steps   that you can kind of look into that maybe shows  that the puzzle isn't complete you know status is   green but they're not turning up to any meeting  something is exactly exactly status is green but   Branch sinks aren't happening right right exactly  and and you know it's clearly documented that they   should be and like there is and there's a paper  trail for those because there's a PR right right   exactly um and so I think uh we I mean also US in  US SE dos and the communties project specifically   we do a lot of trusting and probably for the  last couple releases have had to do also a bit   more verifying because we've had things not going  completely great exactly but at the same time it   hasn't meant that we say oh we now need to like  change the way the whole process runs no we need   to like make sure that we can advocate for more  feedback bubbling up and recording that so that   we can solve these problems for the future and  I think that's something that um we felt really   Hur in the Sig um you know by the release team  bubbling that feedback up so that we can improve   it for next time and we were able to put that docs  checklist together so that some of that safety can   be there in terms of hey we need to uh you know  say that this status is like yellow or red this   time which means you know we're behind on EX  deliverables and I think um we always want to   say hey that's okay if you're behind because we're  around to help be here and help um Us in docs the   release team and and so on and I think we on our  side can also do our part by overc communicating   that option makes sense makes sense I know go  ahead I've been I've been overc communicating   with my Shadows this cycle because of that out  of out of fear oh yeah you know this is a this   is a fear-driven release for me making sure it  happens making sure it gets done let's go yeah   I I think uh a thing that we could do better is  set an expectation with with all sub team leads   that it is not normal to be green for the whole  cycle right would it's not normal it's good for   you to occasionally be yellow or red like we have  that system for a reason like having reporting   green all the way through a cycle does not make  it look like you're doing a better job it doesn't   mean that you're like a more reliable contributor  it mean doesn't mean that you're more likely to   get selected to lead the next cycle it's not good  to be the whole time that's weird and it actually   doesn't present any learning opportunities for you  um I think in the sense that you know is it very   clean to say the idea that like you learn from  failure and it's not necessarily a failure if you   report one week yellow but it's showing you that  oh is there something like do I have these kind of   skills and this ability to troubleshoot and help  out like it's kind of like a an interesting way   to kind of prove that your capabilities are like  up to the up to the task you know and I think um   not to say that people should like purposely try  and find a yellow or redort but you shouldn't be   weird about it exctly exactly and and no one  is sitting there expecting it to be green the   whole time in fact quite the opposite and like  like you just mentioned if it's green every time   that probably is also a signal to myself as lead  going are we sure I should just double check yeah   for sure I kind of wonder sometimes if we should  get rid of the green yellow red though because   I think that it's the color has a subconscious  connotation that oh I did something wrong right   yeah you know so like I don't even know what you  would do that would still make it accessible cuz   like part of it is the red yellow green is fairly  accessible for most people but it also is I think   a fairly us thing in terms of like stop lights  right is it yeah or is it not like is it is that   pretty Universal to most people I think I think  so I'm trying to think of a country I've been to   that doesn't have red yellow green stop Japan does  but I think what the interesting yeah I think the   interesting part that you mentioned is like the  fact that if something is red the the connotation   to communicate or admit or show that that's a  cult difference for sure exactly yeah and I think   that's something that you know we're a global  project in kubernetes that we need to make sure   that we're um being accessible for a lot of the  different communication modes that like take place   um and I think um again the over communication of  it's okay um but also being able to kind of it's   something that I spoke about with my leads a while  ago but do we need to kind of show as an example   someone willing to maybe drop the ball to show  this is how you would communicate and this is how   would troubleshoot and as a community get together  and be blameless about it right um I think that's   something that uh that's that's kind of hard to  to put together as like a in a fake way but at the   same time I think it could be really beneficial  for a lot of our contributors in countries   outside of North America and Europe to show that  actually this isn't something that you you'd be   chastised for like or or you know fled for or  whatever um it's actually something that shows   how the community gets together and supports one  another yeah I'm I'm not going to be the person   to intentionally fail in a release as an example  um so that people can see that but you know maybe   maybe we should in positions of leadership be a  little bit more willing to uh overc communicate   when we screw up yeah I love that idea I think  that's something that um we are not always willing   to do on the leadership side because again that  pressure of where the people who are leading the   community and we have to be the best example um  because those you know issues that have happened   where Community leaders have been not so great  examples have been so hurtful to the community   as well exact um and there's there's really only  one extreme or the other I feel like there's very   little in between on the community side that it  that doesn't help mean that you don't play with f   with those uh kinds of situations I mean we could  do like an awkward roleplay video that everybody   has to watch like as training like the airplane  safety videos yeah well sort of except like oh   no oh no we have a yellow what do we do what does  this mean no no but it would just be really funny   U I'm more thinking like the the typical HR  videos that you have to watch every year they   get really really awkward sometimes they're really  embarrassing yeah so do that for yeah so instead   of promoting psychological safety we were Pro  promoting psychological awkwardness yes exactly   I mean hey maybe it would work everybody's just  going to have to be worried about it yeah yeah   I mean if everyone's weird it could it could  actually be really helpful it could work right   exactly because I think it would just be a little  strange but also at the same time it's a way to   give that actual example yeah with an easy way to  show it whereas instead of trying to have it one   person who's in the know fail by accident might  not like they might not have the acting skills I   guess to be able to do that well well I think like  one way that we could kind of like try and like   push some of some of that happening in a in a more  organic way like the Retros are a great example   where you actually have to like sit there and  say okay what went great blah blah blah everyone   Pats themselves in the back and the team but what  didn't go so great and like actually having people   purposely say okay I am going to focus on the not  great things but also focus on how do we actually   Rectify those how do we find solutions for them  within the community with community help and like   having that emphasis um and I think you know you  never want a retro that is only full of what went   wrong um you do need to do like the kind of uh  you know the Feelgood sandwich on either side   and so on um but having that bi action of wanting  to you know uh look at look at those problems that   need that need you know community help and support  um and being like open to talking about them and   asking the rest of the community folks who maybe  won't speak up on their own hey do you agree did   you see these kinds of same issues we want to hear  from you right this is us just asking questions   nothing to do with you as a person or your  contribution right exactly that makes sense yeah   I think also I think like in in special interest  groups where especially in docs where we get a lot   of new contributors uh in first time to either  kubernetes or open source we deal with a lot   of folks who are scared to ask questions or um or  or are very good at asking questions because they   don't read the documentation for example right  exact always the two extremes right and I think   um we have to just still be okay with answering  and directing in a way that is still kind of   helpful because we want to actually showing that  kind of side of answering those folks's questions   actually helps the psychological safety aspect or  other questions come up from people who wouldn't   normally ask and I think that's something that um  as a leader of docs I've had to really get my head   around like I do have to answer the same questions  over and over because in like three releases times   someone will get the courage that they never had  before to ask a question of me because they see me   answering all this stuff for example um that's  something that is sometimes hard to swallow   because it's a lot of uh please read please read  the documentation that we we put all this effort   into writing so that you wouldn't have to ask  these questions exactly or maybe you know maybe   you want you're asking questions that elaborate on  these docs that's great I want those questions yes   hell yeah on a public meeting in a public Channel  as well no DMS right like let's let's make sure   that you know everyone is benefiting from the  answers and questions that are taking place   yeah but yeah questions it's just um why why well  see I actually like answering those questions cu   the way that I do it is always a instead of can  you please read the documentation it's always a   here's the answer and if you forget what my answer  was here's the documentation where it was located   yeah and it's like okay because it it reminds  people that there's documentation but it also   validates that they can ask questions right so I  don't know maybe it works maybe that's just from   teaching kids and you know dealing with incessant  eight-year-old questions why why did that blow up   why did that work yeah you know volcano it was fun  we also try and use I mean uh for those who don't   know kubernetes has a slack community and we do a  lot of the communication on there and we try and   use like as many features like of the Native slack  app as possible pinned messages and bookmarks and   things like this um as further ways to do a lot  of that communication so that even that that async   work of answering everyone's questions is like  the link to the pinned message and like here it   is for future and Etc I actually have uh like  a like a notes like like a notes where I just   keep like the canned responses that I often have  to give and I just add in like hit the person's   name instead and like maybe it's a good morning  or good evening or whatever it is in their time   zone and just like so there is a little bit of  personalized part there but it's also I have   answer this question 50 million times is the  response gives you a little more spoons to be   able to handle everything else too I mean it does  I I I I'm the kind of person that doesn't find the   slack um communication work like that much of a  burden I don't mind actually doing it that much uh   so I and I have like obviously strategies to deal  with a lot of that stuff but I know that for some   folks it's just uh it can be a bit overwhelming  so I'm happy to pick up the slack yeah yeah I'm   practicing for our talk oh God but but yeah I know  that that's also going to be something that you   know again as a community how much of a deterrent  would it be in like a public channel that people   keep answering asking the same thing they're not  even reading the the the the messages back from   like a day ago they're asking the same thing and  their responses are the same also some of that   also kind of needs to not be so loud maybe maybe  not I don't know like I think we have been trying   to move around the channels a little bit to try  to because I know we split out the org members   versus the contributors versus the users because  there was a lot of user questions in the general   chat and then it was like okay well what about  if you were trying to do contri contributions   that would be a little bit different yeah and  then there's like Sig sub project channels too   like there's Sig docs and there's Sig docs blog  yes yeah yes which is something that uh you know   a lot of folks came in actually someone came in  the other day of um in dogs going I have a Blog   idea yeah and it's just like that's that's not  going to be always obvious that I should ask   blog questions in the blog channel um because uh  because it doesn't start with the word blog for   example or something well also if you've been  part of the project for a while you don't know   that there have been more channels you just have  it already in your channel list you just click it   you're like I I know this is the right place to go  click yeah and then you find out oh you started a   new channel for that okay I will move there sorry  and that's another aspect of the psychological   safety part where you know you have to let people  uh ask questions or do things that are outside   of your scope of how things should work in order  for those questions to come in and for people to   feel comfortable oh don't ask me questions about  the blog in the non-blog channel I mean I mean   you could say that but it would be mean and also  it's it's literally just more time consuming than   answering the question exactly and it's it's very  easy did a copy and paste a message and say hey   I'm just moving you to this appropriate Channel  that's talking here etc etc um and I know again   the like the slack work people like to kind of  be in the channels that they only want to pay   attention to and really like coordinate work in a  certain way um I can talk wherever be wherever so   I I don't I'm I'm the one that's like flexible and  I'm happy to work to other people specifications   makes sense makes sense so we are just about a  time but I heard you mention a talk so you can   get a chance to plug the recording of the talk we  won't have this live in time to talk about your   live one but the recording plug it let's hear it  yeah so um I'm I'm actually doing two talks uh but   the first one that everyone should definitely  uh go and check out is called uh Dungeons and   deployments leveling up in kubernetes oh boy oh  yeah yeah oh yeah cat and I will be sharing the   stage with uh two good friends of ours Seth and  Noah and Noah has done an amazing job at horrible   horrible jokes that we'll be telling absolutely  the best and worst of Dungeons and Dragons let's   hear it yeah it'll be great um and it's going to  be something where um there's going to be a lot   of like movement involved so like sorry in advance  to folks watching on the watching the stream after   where like cat and I may regularly like walk out  of frame yeah yeah just just throw our character   sheets in the air and leave yeah definitely a lot  of that happening in fact I don't think I'll have   a character sheet for half of my session yeah  no I might just eat mine love that yeah yeah   yeah I love that bork style yeah um and then the  other talk I'll be doing is uh with my with my   award-winning coach here um that'll be uh that'll  be on Thursday that's that's tomorrow um or later   for virtual folks um and uh that's going to be  a call out for folks um wanting to help out Sig   dogs where we need help and we're highlighting  um you know spoiler alert netlify if you know   you are a JavaScript developer I want to talk to  you as in a better one than me I want to talk to   you I want I want to talk to you about Hugo and  you're going to learn a bit of go and you're going   to sit down and work with us with our website  need so so much um but yeah just us uh kind of   highlighting where we need help with like issue  wrangling with netfi and Hugo debugging um and   generally just like better documentation work so  yeah check it out all right well excellent so my   name is Laura my name is cat and I've been Natalie  vco and this was devops Dispatch live here at ccon   North America Chicago 2023 I think I got all  of that in there once everybody say bye bye bye

2024-03-04

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