On Record Episode 1 — Cybersecurity and Emerging Technologies with Nick Polk
[Music] hi there I'm Ona amra PhD candidate in chemistry at Johns Hopkins University and the president of the Johns Hopkins science policy and diplomacy group that engages early career scholars in fields ranging from physical sciences to international relations in the new directions of science policy science diplomacy advocacy and communication to really create and Foster the connection between scientists policy makers and diplomats among other goals welcome to the first episode of the on- reccord science policy and diplomacy briefing series that aims to Foster the connection between um scientists policy makers and diplomats as I mentioned and uh really engage diverse guests and learn about their perspectives on the fields of science policy science diplomacy how these fields integrate into their line of work and any insights they may have with regards to scientists working together with policy makers so now it is my absolute honor to introduce our inaugural guest of the briefing series Mr Nick pulk who is the senior adviser to the federal Chief information security officer in the Office of Management and budget at the White House previously at DD and National Security Council focusing on the topics of National Security and emerging technology it is such a pleasure to see you again and than so yes and thank you so much for taking the time to be with us here today in the very heart of Washington DC so let's get into it sounds great could you tell us more about yourself and how you got to where you are today yeah definitely so um so I came to SC um after um teaching down in Houston Texas um English and uh Engish a second language so not science unfortunately um but then um uh went to the Ionia um Center and came back to DC and afterwards um joined the federal government through the presidential management fellowship program which is a great program that brings in uh folks with gr graduate degrees from across the country uh to do a two-year program where they rotate between different federal agencies and at the end end of that program they end up at a federal agency as a permanent employee so I came in uh rotated among uh Department of Defense and then finished out at the National Security Council and after uh went to back to the Department of Defense and uh after um working in the Department of Defense Chief Information officers uh office for a couple of years uh most recently came to the White House Office management and budget which is responsible uh among other things for setting the cyber security information technology policy for uh the federal civilian executive branch agencies so pretty much everything but the intelligence Community okay wonderful so now as we heard we really have diverse experiences in different positions different roles so what role have you seen actually scientists and overall science policy and or science diplomacy play in their situations during your work on such topics as postquantum cryptography implementation and National Security Systems yeah so science some diplomacy and science policy really has been just a central part of the um information technology and cyber security development in the government uh so a little bit of nerd but of course you know a lot of folks know about some of the you know very important uh it you know technological developments that came out of the Department of Defense especially uh so a perfect example right that everyone knows about is arpanet which was the uh predecessor to the internet and that was a DOD research project uh which was then later used by a lot of the National Labs to share critical scientific information and uh after uh that became pretty widespread you know there were only about 10 sites across the country way back in the' 70s and you know by the time it was actually decommissioned in the '90s and uh transitioned over to the internet at large it was thousands of user now now it's billions of users and so that's a great example of um a place where we saw a lot of uh DOD development lead to a very uh important scientific and technological tool and a couple of other examples are GPS uh the global positioning system which was created by DOD for military uses but then later expanded for civilian purposes now it's pretty much indispensable to most of the things we do uh and that's also by the way timing uh so Quantum technologies that DOD develop for timing uh such as the atomic clock are now used to ensure that uh it networks can work efficiently so they have the same time across different networks and uh that actually allows them to function and um I think the last thing is you know a very interesting one is radar which was developed in the UK but later shared with the United States under our defense agreements but now of course is integral for everything that we do that involves flying or anything like that you know we are very uh grateful for radar for making sure that you know planes don't crash um and so there's been a lot of that but in present day uh DOD of course has now um their most recent iteration of their office of science technology which is the under secretary of defense for research and engineering and these folks are really important because they bring scientists into the policymaking process at every different level and across the entire department and so a lot of what we did we ensured we were uh closely in line with USD RNE uh to make sure that they could bring in that perspective because uh there really two reasons here so first uh they help us look ahead of the curve and they help us look at things where we we we look Beyond just the immediate policy objectives and Beyond just uh the things that we just feel like we need to do tomorrow and look at what's coming and look at how we can ensure that what the policy that we're writing whether it's you know cyber security of a Department of Defense National Security system or just uh how we want to go about doing something like uh setting up a dod-wide 5G Network they help us do it in a way that is uh Fosters Innovation and doesn't get us stuck in outdated or outmoded Technologies and then the second thing of course that they do which is really critical is that they take the knowledge they have of the policies we're working on and what the department needs and what we need to get to the war fighter and then they use that to look at all their different Grant programs and fund different research projects which might help that in the future and that's again very important because you know for DOD Contracting is all about fixing a very specific problem and a DOD contract is wrting very specifically you had to deliver something and you had to deliver exactly like they say but for the grant process which usdr runs that's very much an explorator uh uh function and therefore they can put things out there and let the scientific Community think of the most Innovative or the most advanced solution to that problem okay that's really really interesting and a related question is um from your time the dod so you helped establish the dod strategic cyber security program that's one at the National Security Agency cyber collaboration Center and then the dod zero trust portfolio management office so during the development of such really critical programs how does the dod work to ensure that its approaches um really connect to the research development and the discoveries that are emerging from Academia and the industry yeah definitely so the biggest thing especially as we go about uh doing things like the I would say the Cyber collaboration Center is a perfect example so uh DOD over the past uh only a couple years has really become much more open in how they discuss it and cyber security so for years uh especially Information Technology at DOD was a very uh closely guarded Secret in many cases and we really realized very quickly that was not a uh sustainable objective nor was it something that really helped us out at all because by being so closed off we were essentially again developing uh different technologies that were only useful for a very small subset and broke very easily and essentially just cost us more money cost taxpayer more money without much benefit so as we embarked in these different goals uh really we had two different objectives and this is kind of again very similar to uh why I talked about before about the Dual roles of usdna so the first was we want to share information so we want to be very open about what DOD is working on uh and then the drawbacks and the different considerations so the Cyber collaboration Center for uh example which is run out the National Security Agency is really critical because they are able to take all the different intelligence feeds that the NSA is looking at any given time and they're able to either declassify it or lower the classification in a way that it can be shared with our industry and scientific partners and so that's really critical because before we weren't able to share that information and that meant that our industry Partners in many cases were on their own and so this is a a really big step and you know same with our scientific Partners right because not every uh scientist in the United States can afford to have their own intelligence agency uh very few actually um not everyone's Dr reil essentially uh but um I'm sorry that was a bad joke um so that so that that really was um an important role but then of course also uh especially in cyber security cyber security of course is a uh it it's in many ways uh a compliance exercise unfortunately but in many ways it's also the ability to look at how uh different uh Information Technology works together and determine where we can come up with new uh capabilities to actually secure those different Technologies so I think the perfect example there of course is artificial intelligence and so the National Security Agency recently announced through the Cyber collaboration Center that they are starting an artificial intelligence um arm of that where they're going to uh work to share information about how uh adversaries might be trying to uh um co-opt or uh delay the development of responsible artificial intelligence and give that information to the folks that can actually do something about it and that's really critical of course because um just to finish the thought actually uh for all these programs uh and all the things I'm talking about there kind of dual use technology where they can be used for really good things but they can also be misused uh it's really critical that we put the information in the right hands of the right people so that the right people are developing this technology or this um or or coming through to these scientific discoveries and they're using it to benefit the broader Tech ecosystem broader Humanity Etc and not using it for things like let's say breaking encryption or uh using artificial intelligence for purposes that are not responsible exactly no I agree with that and now going towards the more platic side of things uh you also served on the National Security Council staff as we mentioned and also you were the country director for Spain Portugal and NATO Affairs in the office of the under secretary of defense for policy so how did you experience the role of Science and Technology as this tool and potential vehicle for enhancing the political dialogue and development or maintenance of relations between different countries different states yeah definitely so of course science policy and diplomacy is very Broad and actually I think sends a lot of other policy areas you know the perfect example being the International Space Station still being you know very much a a symbol of international scientific cooperation where even though we don't really have the best diplomatic relations with some of the different members of the International Space spasation Team uh it's still there uh we still work together and it still has you know continued to lead to Great uh scientific discoveries but uh of course when we do want to engage with countries where we know that we have similar values and similar uh outcomes for that uh research search and development uh the NATO uh structure is a really good uh way to do that so NATO has of course their science technology office which uh works very closely with the dod science technology offices as well and that has led to a lot of great developments between the different NATO member countries uh which we benefited from greatly uh whether it's things like avionics that go into um different uh fighter jets that are used among NATO Nations or uh if you look at kind of the information technology side uh really going down to things like interoperable encryption which has led to uh not only some really great advances in ensuring that NATO can communicate securely effectively and uh with enough bandwidth to actually share the necessary information but also of course the encryption technology that was developed for NATO over the years which was really specifically designed to be able to be shared among International Partners now really underpins even things that are on the commercial internet because if you can share encryption technology with an international partner you can uh then use different flavor of it to give to commercial industry which can then use it for their own purposes to do things like secure messaging services uh or your interactions with your bank so that's really been an essential part of it and uh NATO of course uh does show us if and if we there is NATO member country it's just much easier for us um in DOD to engage that country in a scientific uh diplomacy um workstream because we know that they share the similar values that we have uh but I think that even country to country as well we've seen a lot of great collaboration on that and just looking at the F35 alone which uh The Joint Strike Fighter which was developed really for use by both the US and its allies the different capabilities to went into things such as Material Science um aerodynamics uh you know again uh um encryption uh the the ability to quickly um Uplink to satellites and use that that capability was developed for that uh specific weapon syst platform but really has much broader uses which are benefiting all the countries that participated definitely now speaking of the NATO military Alliance right um now the addition of Finland happened possibly soon Sweden how do you envision the role of emerging Technologies to change if at all um in the coming years as it pertains to the alliance itself and to the individual members National Security considerations yeah so I think it's it's a very exciting time of course with the NATO expansion uh going as it is um and um so you know of course uh for Finland especially they've always been a uh partner of NATO and to that end they've always engaged uh with different NATO offices including the science technology folks however of course with NATO and or sorry with Finland Sweden joining uh I think the most immediate benefit we're going to see and this is something that is you a very exciting uh development that um you know since since Finland especially doesn't really have many warm water ports I actually don't think you know I think that they they really might not have uh more than a couple the the the technology that we're going to be able to develop with them in terms of being able to navigate um in cold water ports or in in in ports where uh it's not necessarily uh completely thawed year round is going to be pretty substantial uh so that's really exciting advancement and that's really be something that benefits the entire lines but shipping as well you you can really easily tie that to commercial applications where uh potentially we could enable Commerce on different uh parts of the ocean where uh are not always passable today by some different uh shipping vessels so that's just all speculation but a really a lot of exciting things there but I think that of course just having them in that structure having them on the same systems having them able to share information more rly with um different member countries is going to be critical and that's really the the uh of course the um Foundation of science diplomacy the ability to share information share discoveries among different members because we can't there's no reason to do everything in a vacuum and every major advancement we've had as I mentioned has been done in collaboration with different countries different uh Partners throughout the world who we share similar values or scientific objectives with definitely and speaking of this you know connection collaboration not working in the vacuum right um we often hear about the need to really strengthen this collaboration connection between scientists policy makers and diplomats and it is crucial in our opinion to really make sure Science and Technology vs get included in these conversations in different circles so what would be your take on that and also how do you think this truly trans disciplinary Bridge uh can be actually made stronger with some concrete actions yeah definitely so uh I think the biggest thing especially for folks that are entering the US government is ensuring that your science technology office is involved in your policy-making process as I mentioned before that's one thing really at DOD where I was very uh cautious to ensure that every week or every other week I had a regular engagement with uh the folks in our under Secret Under Secretary of events for research engineering office uh just to make sure that uh we knew what they were working on they know what we were working on and we figur out where we could actually uh mix that collaboration together uh because never really know uh you know what's what's going to come next what the next policy direcor is going to be it's a big government and so it's good to keep that collaboration going and that's something where I strongly recommend that folks when they when you get to whatever agency you work for if you're entering the United States government or you know whatever uh your uh Home Country government uh has wherever their science technology folks are you go and find them you seek them out you uh regularly engage with them because they are really critical partners and uh this is really something where a lot of times again you know folks will think that uh they don't really need to engage with the scientific community that the scientific you will find them that what they're doing is not really Innovative so they're they're pretty good but that really shouldn't be the case uh you really it's it's uh you don't really know what you're going to find out until you go go and talk to them that's something where I found out uh many times throughout my time at DOD especially that when I went and talk to the scientists in the room that they actually had some really Innovative and interesting Ways to Think Through the problems that I thought I was alone thinking about definitely and now speaking of this understanding that you can actually have conversation with these people who you might not talk to often whether you're a scientist now interested in diplomacy policy or vice versa and the last question is uh during the episode today is how do you think early career Scholars could engage more in the fields of science policy science diplomacy and at the intersection really of the two yeah definitely so I think there are several things here uh so I'm going to I'm going to do a really nerdy first one which is something I didn't think about until very recently my current role that I think that is really important but if if you look at all the requests for public comment the US government puts out like at regulations.gov uh this is again I know very nerdy but the US government will take many of its uh most controversial uh most difficult or topics that have the the most uh public interest and put them out for public comment and if you uh even as an individual person you can respond to those requests for public comment and really have your voice heard in the process whether it's again for Information Technology cyber security uh science technology policy but really looking ahead and seeing all those different opportunities for that comment is really essential and you know even if you're an internship at SC or um you just graduated from SC and just enter an organization uh if you can convince your organization to go and provide you know your comments under their heading uh it can even provide more weight and you can actually kind of do two birds one stone which is you can make yourself look good to your boss and participate in the scientific process so I think that's you know the first thing the second thing is a little bit twofold and I always encourage folks to think of this especially for the US government so we have a big government of course so you don't want to just look at the typical Usual Suspects when you're trying to find a job especially if you're interested in science diplomacy so for example uh if you're okay with leaving you know DC uh the National Labs are a critical node in our scientific uh uh structure in the United States and they actually do have each one of them uh International programs so if you consider the National Labs and you consider going out to places like Idaho or Livermore where they have a really wonderful Winery by the way um Berkeley Oakridge Tennessee you can really get involved in your National diplomacy from those National Labs and you might think oh well you know I can only do diplomacy at the state department that just really not the case uh there are even other parts of Department of energy that do a lot of international diplomacy as well where you can share information uh the national nuclear Security Administration is a perfect example where they do a lot lot to work with our uh partners that have similar values to share responsible nuclear technology uh for things like civilian powerered uh generation and again maybe it's not the state department but nnsa has a very robust International arm and that's definitely something I encourage folks to consider so think beyond the usual suspect think beyond the state department uh think think Beyond even just the typical science technology offices in each of the agencies which are a great place to start but maybe they don't always have openings and think through uh all different opportunities that you have to really engage in scientific diplomacy across the different agencies thank you Nick for that yeah so that wraps it up actually our conver conversation for today so Nick on behalf of the entire John's Hopkins science policy and diplom diplomacy group thank you so much for the comments the insights and really we look forward to seeing you again in all of our initiatives and really thank you for taking the time to join us here today no thanks so much for having me and it's really great to be here and uh thank you you for all the great work that you guys are doing absolutely and also thank you to everyone for tuning into our inaugural on record science policy and diplomacy briefing series all the best and stay [Music] tuned okay well that was fun yeah thank you so much
2023-12-24 20:31
