>> Hello, >> Hello, >> Hello, >> Hello, and welcome. I'm from the UNSW Centre for Ideas. I'm from the UNSW Centre for Ideas. I'm from the UNSW Centre for Ideas. I'm from the UNSW Centre for Ideas. I'm very happy to welcome you to this event I'm very happy to welcome you to this event I'm very happy to welcome you to this event I'm very happy to welcome you to this event in our new International in our new International in our new International in our new International Conversations series Conversations series Conversations series Conversations series where writers and thinkers from around the where writers and thinkers from around the where writers and thinkers from around the where writers and thinkers from around the world join leading UNSW researchers world join leading UNSW researchers world join leading UNSW researchers world join leading UNSW researchers to talk about inspiration, ideas and to talk about inspiration, ideas and to talk about inspiration, ideas and to talk about inspiration, ideas and discovery.
discovery. discovery. discovery.
We're coming to you from the UNSW Sydney We're coming to you from the UNSW Sydney We're coming to you from the UNSW Sydney We're coming to you from the UNSW Sydney campus campus campus campus and I would like to acknowledge the Bedegal and I would like to acknowledge the Bedegal and I would like to acknowledge the Bedegal and I would like to acknowledge the Bedegal people, people, people, people, the traditional custodians of the land the traditional custodians of the land the traditional custodians of the land the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet, on which we meet, on which we meet, on which we meet, and pay my respects to their Elders past and and pay my respects to their Elders past and and pay my respects to their Elders past and and pay my respects to their Elders past and present, present, present, present, and to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are with us here tonight. people who are with us here tonight. people who are with us here tonight. people who are with us here tonight.
Our conversation today Our conversation today Our conversation today Our conversation today is with Mireille Hildebrandt is with Mireille Hildebrandt is with Mireille Hildebrandt is with Mireille Hildebrandt and Richard Buckland around and Richard Buckland around and Richard Buckland around and Richard Buckland around new technologies and the law. new technologies and the law. new technologies and the law. new technologies and the law. It is presented in collaboration with the It is presented in collaboration with the It is presented in collaboration with the It is presented in collaboration with the Australian Society for Computers and Law. Australian Society for Computers and Law.
Australian Society for Computers and Law. Australian Society for Computers and Law. It's a pleasure to introduce our host, It's a pleasure to introduce our host, It's a pleasure to introduce our host, It's a pleasure to introduce our host, Richard Buckland, an expert on cyber security Richard Buckland, an expert on cyber security Richard Buckland, an expert on cyber security Richard Buckland, an expert on cyber security in the faculty of engineering here at UNSW in the faculty of engineering here at UNSW in the faculty of engineering here at UNSW in the faculty of engineering here at UNSW Cindy. Cindy. Cindy.
Cindy. -- Sydney. -- Sydney. -- Sydney. -- Sydney. He is a frequent commentator He is a frequent commentator He is a frequent commentator He is a frequent commentator on the risks on the risks on the risks on the risks and threats that cybercrime poses to us.
and threats that cybercrime poses to us. and threats that cybercrime poses to us. and threats that cybercrime poses to us. He is also an award-winning He is also an award-winning He is also an award-winning He is also an award-winning educator and somebody renowned for creating educator and somebody renowned for creating educator and somebody renowned for creating educator and somebody renowned for creating powerful learning communities. powerful learning communities. powerful learning communities.
powerful learning communities. Before a hand over to Richard, I want to Before a hand over to Richard, I want to Before a hand over to Richard, I want to Before a hand over to Richard, I want to remind you remind you remind you remind you to join the conversation they are to join the conversation they are to join the conversation they are to join the conversation they are having. having. having. having.
A bit further down in the hour, A bit further down in the hour, A bit further down in the hour, A bit further down in the hour, there will be time for questions from the there will be time for questions from the there will be time for questions from the there will be time for questions from the audience. audience. audience. audience. You will be able to go to You will be able to go to You will be able to go to You will be able to go to sli.do/unsw sli.do/unsw
sli.do/unsw sli.do/unsw and add your own question and add your own question and add your own question and add your own question or upvote someone else's. or upvote someone else's. or upvote someone else's. or upvote someone else's.
>> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you.
I am so pleased I am so pleased I am so pleased I am so pleased to be welcoming to be welcoming to be welcoming to be welcoming Mireille Hildebrandt here tonight. Mireille Hildebrandt here tonight. Mireille Hildebrandt here tonight. Mireille Hildebrandt here tonight. Morale Morale Morale Morale Mireille Hildebrandt is an expert Mireille Hildebrandt is an expert Mireille Hildebrandt is an expert Mireille Hildebrandt is an expert on the topic of new technologies and the law. on the topic of new technologies and the law.
on the topic of new technologies and the law. on the topic of new technologies and the law. She is unusual She is unusual She is unusual She is unusual because she has a foot because she has a foot because she has a foot because she has a foot in each camp. in each camp. in each camp.
in each camp. She is an expert in computing She is an expert in computing She is an expert in computing She is an expert in computing and an expert in law and legal practice. and an expert in law and legal practice. and an expert in law and legal practice. and an expert in law and legal practice. She is very interested in the rule of law, She is very interested in the rule of law, She is very interested in the rule of law, She is very interested in the rule of law, and we will be talking about that tonight, and we will be talking about that tonight, and we will be talking about that tonight, and we will be talking about that tonight, and some of the challenges of the and some of the challenges of the and some of the challenges of the and some of the challenges of the interface between commuting interface between commuting interface between commuting interface between commuting -- computing and the comedic -- computing and the comedic -- computing and the comedic -- computing and the comedic computing committee computing committee computing committee computing committee community community community community and the law and the law community.
and the law and the law community. and the law and the law community. and the law and the law community.
I would like to thank the Australian Society I would like to thank the Australian Society I would like to thank the Australian Society I would like to thank the Australian Society for Computers and Law for organising tonight's for Computers and Law for organising tonight's for Computers and Law for organising tonight's for Computers and Law for organising tonight's event event event event and I am looking forward to a fabulous and I am looking forward to a fabulous and I am looking forward to a fabulous and I am looking forward to a fabulous conversation conversation conversation conversation and talk from Mireille Hildebrandt. and talk from Mireille Hildebrandt. and talk from Mireille Hildebrandt. and talk from Mireille Hildebrandt. Let me introduce Mireille Hildebrandt, Let me introduce Mireille Hildebrandt, Let me introduce Mireille Hildebrandt, Let me introduce Mireille Hildebrandt, she is a Research Professor of Interfacing she is a Research Professor of Interfacing she is a Research Professor of Interfacing she is a Research Professor of Interfacing Law and Technology Law and Technology Law and Technology Law and Technology at the Vrije Universiteit Brussel. at the Vrije Universiteit Brussel.
at the Vrije Universiteit Brussel. at the Vrije Universiteit Brussel. Her research covers computational law Her research covers computational law Her research covers computational law Her research covers computational law including machine learning including machine learning including machine learning including machine learning and blockchain technology.
and blockchain technology. and blockchain technology. and blockchain technology. We are here tonight particularly We are here tonight particularly We are here tonight particularly We are here tonight particularly to talk about her recently published book, to talk about her recently published book, to talk about her recently published book, to talk about her recently published book, 'Law for Computer Scientists and Other 'Law for Computer Scientists and Other 'Law for Computer Scientists and Other 'Law for Computer Scientists and Other Folk' Folk' Folk' Folk' and Mireille Hildebrandt says the and Mireille Hildebrandt says the and Mireille Hildebrandt says the and Mireille Hildebrandt says the book as a result of eight years book as a result of eight years book as a result of eight years book as a result of eight years of teaching law to of teaching law to of teaching law to of teaching law to masters students of computing science masters students of computing science masters students of computing science masters students of computing science whose agile and inquiring minds whose agile and inquiring minds whose agile and inquiring minds whose agile and inquiring minds make each course make each course make each course make each course and intellectual and intellectual and intellectual and intellectual delight. delight.
delight. delight. As a computer scientist I have so many questions As a computer scientist I have so many questions As a computer scientist I have so many questions As a computer scientist I have so many questions for Mireille Hildebrandt, welcome. for Mireille Hildebrandt, welcome. for Mireille Hildebrandt, welcome.
for Mireille Hildebrandt, welcome. >> Richard, thank you very much. >> Richard, thank you very much.
>> Richard, thank you very much. >> Richard, thank you very much. And good morning from Brussels. And good morning from Brussels. And good morning from Brussels. And good morning from Brussels.
It is fabulous It is fabulous It is fabulous It is fabulous to have a fireside talk to have a fireside talk to have a fireside talk to have a fireside talk over breakfast. over breakfast. over breakfast. over breakfast.
And I imagine you can now see my first slide, And I imagine you can now see my first slide, And I imagine you can now see my first slide, And I imagine you can now see my first slide, so I am going to kick right off. so I am going to kick right off. so I am going to kick right off. so I am going to kick right off. And I am going to treat you to some explanations And I am going to treat you to some explanations And I am going to treat you to some explanations And I am going to treat you to some explanations of why I think that law and computer science, of why I think that law and computer science, of why I think that law and computer science, of why I think that law and computer science, which most people think are really very which most people think are really very which most people think are really very which most people think are really very different things, which is a fact different things, which is a fact different things, which is a fact different things, which is a fact but never the less but never the less but never the less but never the less I think I think I think I think for many different reasons for many different reasons for many different reasons for many different reasons they are also they are also they are also they are also a match made in heaven. a match made in heaven.
a match made in heaven. a match made in heaven. So why does it matter So why does it matter So why does it matter So why does it matter that lawyers that lawyers that lawyers that lawyers get their act together get their act together get their act together get their act together and begin to understand and begin to understand and begin to understand and begin to understand some of the things some of the things some of the things some of the things that computers and computing systems can that computers and computing systems can that computers and computing systems can that computers and computing systems can and cannot do, how that works, and cannot do, how that works, and cannot do, how that works, and cannot do, how that works, and what is the and what is the and what is the and what is the methodological integrity of computer methodological integrity of computer methodological integrity of computer methodological integrity of computer science? science? science? science? and of Law, and of Law, and of Law, and of Law, which is of course different. which is of course different.
which is of course different. which is of course different. Just to set the scene, Just to set the scene, Just to set the scene, Just to set the scene, I imagine I do not have to remind you I imagine I do not have to remind you I imagine I do not have to remind you I imagine I do not have to remind you of things like Robert of things like Robert of things like Robert of things like Robert -- -- -- -- robodebt robodebt robodebt robodebt and the and the and the and the famous example of famous example of famous example of famous example of Compass in the US. Compass in the US.
Compass in the US. Compass in the US. But I want to take as an example, But I want to take as an example, But I want to take as an example, But I want to take as an example, and I will come back to it, an algorithm in and I will come back to it, an algorithm in and I will come back to it, an algorithm in and I will come back to it, an algorithm in Sweden Sweden Sweden Sweden that decided about paying out unemployment that decided about paying out unemployment that decided about paying out unemployment that decided about paying out unemployment benefits to people benefits to people benefits to people benefits to people where it became known that the algorithm where it became known that the algorithm where it became known that the algorithm where it became known that the algorithm had made a mistake had made a mistake had made a mistake had made a mistake in 70,000 cases. in 70,000 cases.
in 70,000 cases. in 70,000 cases. But they could not say But they could not say But they could not say But they could not say which cases. which cases. which cases.
which cases. So we are talking about millions of decisions So we are talking about millions of decisions So we are talking about millions of decisions So we are talking about millions of decisions over the course of, I think, over the course of, I think, over the course of, I think, over the course of, I think, five years. five years. five years. five years. 70,000 were wrong, 70,000 were wrong, 70,000 were wrong, 70,000 were wrong, but they didn't know which ones were wrong.
but they didn't know which ones were wrong. but they didn't know which ones were wrong. but they didn't know which ones were wrong. Now to grasp that Now to grasp that Now to grasp that Now to grasp that I think it is very important to understand I think it is very important to understand I think it is very important to understand I think it is very important to understand something of computer science. something of computer science.
something of computer science. something of computer science. So maybe it's good to mention So maybe it's good to mention So maybe it's good to mention So maybe it's good to mention that I was awarded that I was awarded that I was awarded that I was awarded a EAC a EAC a EAC a EAC advance grant advance grant advance grant advance grant so much of my research is now focused so much of my research is now focused so much of my research is now focused so much of my research is now focused on the integration of artificial intelligence on the integration of artificial intelligence on the integration of artificial intelligence on the integration of artificial intelligence but also things like roses code but also things like roses code but also things like roses code but also things like roses code into the law.
into the law. into the law. into the law. And for that I am collaborating with a And for that I am collaborating with a And for that I am collaborating with a And for that I am collaborating with a computer science team computer science team computer science team computer science team with my affiliation in the Netherlands, with my affiliation in the Netherlands, with my affiliation in the Netherlands, with my affiliation in the Netherlands, and the Law faculty and the Law faculty and the Law faculty and the Law faculty which is my main affiliation which is my main affiliation which is my main affiliation which is my main affiliation here in Brussels. here in Brussels. here in Brussels.
here in Brussels. So what I am going to do So what I am going to do So what I am going to do So what I am going to do is take a viewpoint is take a viewpoint is take a viewpoint is take a viewpoint that I wrote that I wrote that I wrote that I wrote for a forthcoming issue for a forthcoming issue for a forthcoming issue for a forthcoming issue of ACM of ACM of ACM of ACM magazine. magazine. magazine.
magazine. That is the glossy of the computer scientists That is the glossy of the computer scientists That is the glossy of the computer scientists That is the glossy of the computer scientists at a global level. at a global level. at a global level.
at a global level. I believe it's a fabulous magazine. I believe it's a fabulous magazine. I believe it's a fabulous magazine. I believe it's a fabulous magazine. Even people like me, Even people like me, Even people like me, Even people like me, lawyers, can read it.
lawyers, can read it. lawyers, can read it. lawyers, can read it. And I was invited to write a viewpoint And I was invited to write a viewpoint And I was invited to write a viewpoint And I was invited to write a viewpoint and so I did so, on the title of understanding and so I did so, on the title of understanding and so I did so, on the title of understanding and so I did so, on the title of understanding law and the rule of law, law and the rule of law, law and the rule of law, law and the rule of law, 'A Plea to Augment CS Curricula 'A Plea to Augment CS Curricula 'A Plea to Augment CS Curricula 'A Plea to Augment CS Curricula '.
'. '. '. Of course augmentation Of course augmentation Of course augmentation Of course augmentation now has this ring of having now has this ring of having now has this ring of having now has this ring of having high-tech involved, high-tech involved, high-tech involved, high-tech involved, but I am going to talk about another but I am going to talk about another but I am going to talk about another but I am going to talk about another kind of augmentation. kind of augmentation. kind of augmentation.
kind of augmentation. So the first question is, So the first question is, So the first question is, So the first question is, why does it matter for computer scientists why does it matter for computer scientists why does it matter for computer scientists why does it matter for computer scientists and other folk, and other folk, and other folk, and other folk, nonlawyers, to understand law and the nonlawyers, to understand law and the nonlawyers, to understand law and the nonlawyers, to understand law and the rule of law? rule of law? rule of law? rule of law? Actually it's very simple. Actually it's very simple. Actually it's very simple. Actually it's very simple.
Because we believe, as a people, Because we believe, as a people, Because we believe, as a people, Because we believe, as a people, in constitutional democracies, in constitutional democracies, in constitutional democracies, in constitutional democracies, then everyone is under the rule of law. then everyone is under the rule of law. then everyone is under the rule of law.
then everyone is under the rule of law. And that means also developers, And that means also developers, And that means also developers, And that means also developers, providers, providers, providers, providers, for instance, global tech platforms are under for instance, global tech platforms are under for instance, global tech platforms are under for instance, global tech platforms are under the rule of law the rule of law the rule of law the rule of law and this is in a sense and this is in a sense and this is in a sense and this is in a sense directly connected directly connected directly connected directly connected to a historical development to a historical development to a historical development to a historical development in seventh century unit in seventh century unit in seventh century unit in seventh century unit Europe where we said, Europe where we said, Europe where we said, Europe where we said, we don't want to depend we don't want to depend we don't want to depend we don't want to depend on the ethical inclinations on the ethical inclinations on the ethical inclinations on the ethical inclinations of enlightened despots. of enlightened despots. of enlightened despots.
of enlightened despots. So it's very nice they are enlightened, So it's very nice they are enlightened, So it's very nice they are enlightened, So it's very nice they are enlightened, that they have good intentions for us, that they have good intentions for us, that they have good intentions for us, that they have good intentions for us, that they don't want to do evil, for instance, that they don't want to do evil, for instance, that they don't want to do evil, for instance, that they don't want to do evil, for instance, but we want to decide for ourselves who is but we want to decide for ourselves who is but we want to decide for ourselves who is but we want to decide for ourselves who is ruling us. ruling us. ruling us.
ruling us. And quite some time ago, And quite some time ago, And quite some time ago, And quite some time ago, Montesquieu Montesquieu Montesquieu Montesquieu invented invented invented invented this idea this idea this idea this idea of of of of some entity dividing itself and installing some entity dividing itself and installing some entity dividing itself and installing some entity dividing itself and installing checks and balances, checks and balances, checks and balances, checks and balances, of facing the fact that there will always be of facing the fact that there will always be of facing the fact that there will always be of facing the fact that there will always be power. power. power. power. There is no society without power There is no society without power There is no society without power There is no society without power and the trick is, and the trick is, and the trick is, and the trick is, the important thing is, the important thing is, the important thing is, the important thing is, to organise countervailing powers.
to organise countervailing powers. to organise countervailing powers. to organise countervailing powers. So the rule of law and democracy can be So the rule of law and democracy can be So the rule of law and democracy can be So the rule of law and democracy can be summarised, it can be summarised, it can be summarised, it can be summarised, it can be compressed, as a computer scientist would compressed, as a computer scientist would compressed, as a computer scientist would compressed, as a computer scientist would say perhaps, say perhaps, say perhaps, say perhaps, into this one statement: into this one statement: into this one statement: into this one statement: governments should treat their citizens governments should treat their citizens governments should treat their citizens governments should treat their citizens with equal with equal with equal with equal respect and concern. respect and concern.
respect and concern. respect and concern. That's a wonderful statement That's a wonderful statement That's a wonderful statement That's a wonderful statement because it both say something about because it both say something about because it both say something about because it both say something about democracy, democracy, democracy, democracy, one person, one vote, one person, one vote, one person, one vote, one person, one vote, but it also says something about what but it also says something about what but it also says something about what but it also says something about what happens in the democracy when the majority means happens in the democracy when the majority means happens in the democracy when the majority means happens in the democracy when the majority means to rule . to rule . to rule .
to rule . namely that they should still respect namely that they should still respect namely that they should still respect namely that they should still respect each and every person each and every person each and every person each and every person in the minority. in the minority. in the minority. in the minority. This means that democracy is not the This means that democracy is not the This means that democracy is not the This means that democracy is not the tyranny of a majority.
tyranny of a majority. tyranny of a majority. tyranny of a majority. Now, this is an important maxim Now, this is an important maxim Now, this is an important maxim Now, this is an important maxim that sort of that sort of that sort of that sort of rules in rules in rules in rules in constitutional democracies.
constitutional democracies. constitutional democracies. constitutional democracies.
Just as a side remark, Just as a side remark, Just as a side remark, Just as a side remark, do you think we could formalise this do you think we could formalise this do you think we could formalise this do you think we could formalise this to bring theirs under to bring theirs under to bring theirs under to bring theirs under that mac that mac that mac that mac to look at to look at to look at to look at -- -- -- -- to look at this to look at this to look at this to look at this from a computer science perspective, from a computer science perspective, from a computer science perspective, from a computer science perspective, we would have to formalise this. we would have to formalise this. we would have to formalise this.
we would have to formalise this. If you want to formalise something, If you want to formalise something, If you want to formalise something, If you want to formalise something, if you want to move from natural language if you want to move from natural language if you want to move from natural language if you want to move from natural language and real life and events, you would have and real life and events, you would have and real life and events, you would have and real life and events, you would have to find a proxy for it. to find a proxy for it. to find a proxy for it.
to find a proxy for it. That means you would have to find That means you would have to find That means you would have to find That means you would have to find a proxy for concepts like equal, a proxy for concepts like equal, a proxy for concepts like equal, a proxy for concepts like equal, and and and and concern and respect. concern and respect. concern and respect. concern and respect.
Interesting weather that would be possible Interesting weather that would be possible Interesting weather that would be possible Interesting weather that would be possible at all. at all. at all. at all. -- Interesting -- Interesting -- Interesting -- Interesting as to whether that would be possible at all. as to whether that would be possible at all.
as to whether that would be possible at all. as to whether that would be possible at all. I think you could find I think you could find I think you could find I think you could find proxies, proxies, proxies, proxies, but then it would be the question of which but then it would be the question of which but then it would be the question of which but then it would be the question of which proxy in what circumstance was the proxy in what circumstance was the proxy in what circumstance was the proxy in what circumstance was the right one. right one. right one. right one.
And then you are back into an adversarial And then you are back into an adversarial And then you are back into an adversarial And then you are back into an adversarial debate. debate. debate. debate.
So now, again, So now, again, So now, again, So now, again, this question of why law matters this question of why law matters this question of why law matters this question of why law matters for computer scientists and other folk, for computer scientists and other folk, for computer scientists and other folk, for computer scientists and other folk, let's look on the one hand at the rule of law, let's look on the one hand at the rule of law, let's look on the one hand at the rule of law, let's look on the one hand at the rule of law, and on the other hand at and on the other hand at and on the other hand at and on the other hand at computer scientists. computer scientists. computer scientists. computer scientists. Law and the rule of law is an architecture.
Law and the rule of law is an architecture. Law and the rule of law is an architecture. Law and the rule of law is an architecture.
We have legislation, we have case law, We have legislation, we have case law, We have legislation, we have case law, We have legislation, we have case law, we have public administration we have public administration we have public administration we have public administration making all kinds of decisions, making all kinds of decisions, making all kinds of decisions, making all kinds of decisions, but we also have people buying things but we also have people buying things but we also have people buying things but we also have people buying things and concluding contracts with each and concluding contracts with each and concluding contracts with each and concluding contracts with each other, other, other, other, suing each other because of somebody suing each other because of somebody suing each other because of somebody suing each other because of somebody causing damage. causing damage. causing damage. causing damage. So Law is an architecture, So Law is an architecture, So Law is an architecture, So Law is an architecture, meaning it is multidimensional. meaning it is multidimensional.
meaning it is multidimensional. meaning it is multidimensional. All these different aspects All these different aspects All these different aspects All these different aspects are interacting with each other are interacting with each other are interacting with each other are interacting with each other so we have complexity.
so we have complexity. so we have complexity. so we have complexity. But it is a specific type But it is a specific type But it is a specific type But it is a specific type of complexity of complexity of complexity of complexity because the law because the law because the law because the law works with natural language works with natural language works with natural language works with natural language and that means it works with ambiguity.
and that means it works with ambiguity. and that means it works with ambiguity. and that means it works with ambiguity. That concept that the law uses That concept that the law uses That concept that the law uses That concept that the law uses have an open texture have an open texture have an open texture have an open texture and that means their meaning and that means their meaning and that means their meaning and that means their meaning can be contested.
can be contested. can be contested. can be contested. My experience with computer scientists My experience with computer scientists My experience with computer scientists My experience with computer scientists is they have a keen eye for complexity.
is they have a keen eye for complexity. is they have a keen eye for complexity. is they have a keen eye for complexity. Because they know what it means to build Because they know what it means to build Because they know what it means to build Because they know what it means to build an architecture an architecture an architecture an architecture based on rules, based on rules, based on rules, based on rules, on code. on code.
on code. on code. And even data driven systems, And even data driven systems, And even data driven systems, And even data driven systems, even machine learning is built with code.
even machine learning is built with code. even machine learning is built with code. even machine learning is built with code.
And what happens if complex systems And what happens if complex systems And what happens if complex systems And what happens if complex systems begin to interact? begin to interact? begin to interact? begin to interact? Which means can you still predict the Which means can you still predict the Which means can you still predict the Which means can you still predict the behaviour of a computing system behaviour of a computing system behaviour of a computing system behaviour of a computing system if you let it interact in an environment? if you let it interact in an environment? if you let it interact in an environment? if you let it interact in an environment? without a computing system without a computing system without a computing system without a computing system and with systems of the real world? and with systems of the real world? and with systems of the real world? and with systems of the real world? My experience is that computer scientists have My experience is that computer scientists have My experience is that computer scientists have My experience is that computer scientists have a dedicated acuity as to the limits of a dedicated acuity as to the limits of a dedicated acuity as to the limits of a dedicated acuity as to the limits of organisation and so you cannot do computer organisation and so you cannot do computer organisation and so you cannot do computer organisation and so you cannot do computer science science science science or build computing systems if you do not or build computing systems if you do not or build computing systems if you do not or build computing systems if you do not formalise and make everything formalise and make everything formalise and make everything formalise and make everything machine-readable. machine-readable. machine-readable. machine-readable. Of course, there are limits to that Of course, there are limits to that Of course, there are limits to that Of course, there are limits to that and I have the feeling and I have the feeling and I have the feeling and I have the feeling that this moment that this moment that this moment that this moment , computer scientists understand that limit , computer scientists understand that limit , computer scientists understand that limit , computer scientists understand that limit from the inside and much better than many people from the inside and much better than many people from the inside and much better than many people from the inside and much better than many people who have a kind of pseudo-religious faith who have a kind of pseudo-religious faith who have a kind of pseudo-religious faith who have a kind of pseudo-religious faith in whatever the systems do.
in whatever the systems do. in whatever the systems do. in whatever the systems do. So, computer science is about the design and the So, computer science is about the design and the So, computer science is about the design and the So, computer science is about the design and the behaviour of computing systems. behaviour of computing systems. behaviour of computing systems.
behaviour of computing systems. Let's hope Let's hope Let's hope Let's hope it is also about the verification of the it is also about the verification of the it is also about the verification of the it is also about the verification of the systems systems systems systems , that means you build a model of the system and , that means you build a model of the system and , that means you build a model of the system and , that means you build a model of the system and test it mathematically test it mathematically test it mathematically test it mathematically . . . . The falsification of testable theory The falsification of testable theory The falsification of testable theory The falsification of testable theory that contributes to scientific that contributes to scientific that contributes to scientific that contributes to scientific research, that means research, that means research, that means research, that means you don't just run your you don't just run your you don't just run your you don't just run your program and program and program and program and you ask questions about what is being you ask questions about what is being you ask questions about what is being you ask questions about what is being said and you could be talking about said and you could be talking about said and you could be talking about said and you could be talking about the empirical system what happens if you put the empirical system what happens if you put the empirical system what happens if you put the empirical system what happens if you put that in the real world? that in the real world? that in the real world? that in the real world? Maybe mathematically it is all fine and then it Maybe mathematically it is all fine and then it Maybe mathematically it is all fine and then it Maybe mathematically it is all fine and then it starts to interact with the real world and real starts to interact with the real world and real starts to interact with the real world and real starts to interact with the real world and real unpredictability comes in. unpredictability comes in. unpredictability comes in.
unpredictability comes in. This is about the implementation and This is about the implementation and This is about the implementation and This is about the implementation and development of positive law, that is the law development of positive law, that is the law development of positive law, that is the law development of positive law, that is the law that is valid in certain jurisdictions that is valid in certain jurisdictions that is valid in certain jurisdictions that is valid in certain jurisdictions , certain countries. , certain countries. , certain countries. , certain countries. That means That means That means That means that legal research that legal research that legal research that legal research is research into this architecture is research into this architecture is research into this architecture is research into this architecture , this multidimensional system , this multidimensional system , this multidimensional system , this multidimensional system of binding of binding of binding of binding legal norms that define a specific jurisdiction.
legal norms that define a specific jurisdiction. legal norms that define a specific jurisdiction. legal norms that define a specific jurisdiction. I will come back to that term I will come back to that term I will come back to that term I will come back to that term and it is a very important term in the and it is a very important term in the and it is a very important term in the and it is a very important term in the law.
law. law. law. Part of legal research and part of the Part of legal research and part of the Part of legal research and part of the Part of legal research and part of the practices to ensure that different practices to ensure that different practices to ensure that different practices to ensure that different permutations can be argued about. permutations can be argued about.
permutations can be argued about. permutations can be argued about. Sometimes Sometimes Sometimes Sometimes the connection the connection the connection the connection ... ... ... ... We are working with computer systems and We are working with computer systems and We are working with computer systems and We are working with computer systems and that means that means that means that means sometimes sometimes sometimes sometimes me moving my computing mouse me moving my computing mouse me moving my computing mouse me moving my computing mouse . . . . Let's not touch it. Let's not touch it. Let's not touch it.
Let's not touch it. It is jumping around the screen. It is jumping around the screen. It is jumping around the screen. It is jumping around the screen. Let's leave it like this.
Let's leave it like this. Let's leave it like this. Let's leave it like this. Here you can see that interfacing me and Here you can see that interfacing me and Here you can see that interfacing me and Here you can see that interfacing me and technology has all sorts of outcomes sometimes.
technology has all sorts of outcomes sometimes. technology has all sorts of outcomes sometimes. technology has all sorts of outcomes sometimes. Let's look at Let's look at Let's look at Let's look at the last boldly printed the last boldly printed the last boldly printed the last boldly printed remarks here on the right-hand side.
remarks here on the right-hand side. remarks here on the right-hand side. remarks here on the right-hand side. Computer science and computer systems generate Computer science and computer systems generate Computer science and computer systems generate Computer science and computer systems generate what I call what I call what I call what I call computational computational computational computational normative Italy, normative Italy, normative Italy, normative Italy, it is called-driven it is called-driven it is called-driven it is called-driven and and and and data-driven. data-driven. data-driven.
data-driven. It is an important It is an important It is an important It is an important concept because I'm not just talking about concept because I'm not just talking about concept because I'm not just talking about concept because I'm not just talking about normality but the fact that these systems normality but the fact that these systems normality but the fact that these systems normality but the fact that these systems generate certain behaviour and make it generate certain behaviour and make it generate certain behaviour and make it generate certain behaviour and make it possible possible possible possible and that means that they create certain and that means that they create certain and that means that they create certain and that means that they create certain habits in people and habits in people and habits in people and habits in people and they restrain people in a certain way. they restrain people in a certain way. they restrain people in a certain way. they restrain people in a certain way.
Of course, Of course, Of course, Of course, the law does the same thing. the law does the same thing. the law does the same thing. the law does the same thing. It does the same thing based on It does the same thing based on It does the same thing based on It does the same thing based on democratic decision-making. democratic decision-making.
democratic decision-making. democratic decision-making. We agree on what is prohibited We agree on what is prohibited We agree on what is prohibited We agree on what is prohibited and how we should be constrained. and how we should be constrained. and how we should be constrained. and how we should be constrained.
Computational Computational Computational Computational normativity normativity normativity normativity is different from law is different from law is different from law is different from law normativity normativity normativity normativity because lawyers do not talk about it being because lawyers do not talk about it being because lawyers do not talk about it being because lawyers do not talk about it being text-driven because it is obvious that we do text-driven because it is obvious that we do text-driven because it is obvious that we do text-driven because it is obvious that we do not see it and it is crucial not see it and it is crucial not see it and it is crucial not see it and it is crucial . . . . Our field, our domain is currently text-driven Our field, our domain is currently text-driven Our field, our domain is currently text-driven Our field, our domain is currently text-driven and it has all sorts of implications. and it has all sorts of implications. and it has all sorts of implications. and it has all sorts of implications. Also, when you bring into that field Also, when you bring into that field Also, when you bring into that field Also, when you bring into that field computational systems that have a different computational systems that have a different computational systems that have a different computational systems that have a different type of normativity. type of normativity.
type of normativity. type of normativity. Why? Why? Why? Why? Competing systems depend on Competing systems depend on Competing systems depend on Competing systems depend on disambiguation so if you have to write code disambiguation so if you have to write code disambiguation so if you have to write code disambiguation so if you have to write code that you have two that you have two that you have two that you have two this ambiguity meaning and that means you have this ambiguity meaning and that means you have this ambiguity meaning and that means you have this ambiguity meaning and that means you have to be clear to the system which meaning you to be clear to the system which meaning you to be clear to the system which meaning you to be clear to the system which meaning you want to formalise. want to formalise. want to formalise. want to formalise.
This connects with the idea that This connects with the idea that This connects with the idea that This connects with the idea that computers computers computers computers are working with ones or zeros are working with ones or zeros are working with ones or zeros are working with ones or zeros and that trickles through the whole system and that trickles through the whole system and that trickles through the whole system and that trickles through the whole system up to more abstract levels in the competing up to more abstract levels in the competing up to more abstract levels in the competing up to more abstract levels in the competing systems and it means that you are always systems and it means that you are always systems and it means that you are always systems and it means that you are always dealing with mutually exclusive variables and dealing with mutually exclusive variables and dealing with mutually exclusive variables and dealing with mutually exclusive variables and I'm sorry if that is all humbug to all of you. I'm sorry if that is all humbug to all of you. I'm sorry if that is all humbug to all of you. I'm sorry if that is all humbug to all of you.
Maybe it is not that important and maybe the Maybe it is not that important and maybe the Maybe it is not that important and maybe the Maybe it is not that important and maybe the most important thing is that we are working with most important thing is that we are working with most important thing is that we are working with most important thing is that we are working with ones and zeros and the natural language is ones and zeros and the natural language is ones and zeros and the natural language is ones and zeros and the natural language is intuitively a very different sort of thing. intuitively a very different sort of thing. intuitively a very different sort of thing. intuitively a very different sort of thing. Competing systems when they make decisions, Competing systems when they make decisions, Competing systems when they make decisions, Competing systems when they make decisions, they achieve that same closure, so at some they achieve that same closure, so at some they achieve that same closure, so at some they achieve that same closure, so at some point they had to make the decision and that is point they had to make the decision and that is point they had to make the decision and that is point they had to make the decision and that is also why we need to disambiguate, otherwise also why we need to disambiguate, otherwise also why we need to disambiguate, otherwise also why we need to disambiguate, otherwise the system will hold.
the system will hold. the system will hold. the system will hold. It is always based on the series of It is always based on the series of It is always based on the series of It is always based on the series of assumptions and they are often mathematical assumptions and they are often mathematical assumptions and they are often mathematical assumptions and they are often mathematical assumptions and you have to make them, otherwise assumptions and you have to make them, otherwise assumptions and you have to make them, otherwise assumptions and you have to make them, otherwise you cannot get on with life. you cannot get on with life.
you cannot get on with life. you cannot get on with life. This is when building systems. This is when building systems. This is when building systems.
This is when building systems. Law is a very different animal. Law is a very different animal.
Law is a very different animal. Law is a very different animal. It is all about natural language and it is all It is all about natural language and it is all It is all about natural language and it is all It is all about natural language and it is all about ambiguity. about ambiguity. about ambiguity. about ambiguity.
This ambiguity you could say opens This ambiguity you could say opens This ambiguity you could say opens This ambiguity you could say opens the the the the space for space for space for space for contestation and different interpretation contestation and different interpretation contestation and different interpretation contestation and different interpretation of the same word, sentence, paragraph, of the same word, sentence, paragraph, of the same word, sentence, paragraph, of the same word, sentence, paragraph, larger text body. larger text body. larger text body.
larger text body. The interesting thing about the law The interesting thing about the law The interesting thing about the law The interesting thing about the law using natural language is that it using natural language is that it using natural language is that it using natural language is that it does just that. does just that. does just that. does just that.
It opens the space It opens the space It opens the space It opens the space for contestation for contestation for contestation for contestation which is co- which is co- which is co- which is co- r r r r e e e e to the rule of law and the function of the laws to the rule of law and the function of the laws to the rule of law and the function of the laws to the rule of law and the function of the laws to provide closure so we can all get on with our to provide closure so we can all get on with our to provide closure so we can all get on with our to provide closure so we can all get on with our lives. lives. lives. lives. It is called legal certainty. It is called legal certainty.
It is called legal certainty. It is called legal certainty. So, let's say So, let's say So, let's say So, let's say that the kind of effects and consequences that the kind of effects and consequences that the kind of effects and consequences that the kind of effects and consequences that computer systems that computer systems that computer systems that computer systems have in the real world have in the real world have in the real world have in the real world are sort of ivory find are sort of ivory find are sort of ivory find are sort of ivory find by the code by the code by the code by the code or they are emergent or they are emergent or they are emergent or they are emergent because the code is interacting because the code is interacting because the code is interacting because the code is interacting in itself in itself in itself in itself or with the rest of the world. or with the rest of the world. or with the rest of the world. or with the rest of the world.
-- Sort of defined. -- Sort of defined. -- Sort of defined. -- Sort of defined.
In law, we are talking about speech acts that In law, we are talking about speech acts that In law, we are talking about speech acts that In law, we are talking about speech acts that have a very specific type of effect. have a very specific type of effect. have a very specific type of effect. have a very specific type of effect.
Think of a civil register that is Think of a civil register that is Think of a civil register that is Think of a civil register that is concluding a marriage and that tells you concluding a marriage and that tells you concluding a marriage and that tells you concluding a marriage and that tells you , "I declare you husband and husband, husband and , "I declare you husband and husband, husband and , "I declare you husband and husband, husband and , "I declare you husband and husband, husband and wife, wife and wife," and then wife, wife and wife," and then wife, wife and wife," and then wife, wife and wife," and then it is in the register and from that moment it is in the register and from that moment it is in the register and from that moment it is in the register and from that moment onwards a whole series of legal effects onwards a whole series of legal effects onwards a whole series of legal effects onwards a whole series of legal effects are function. are function. are function.
are function. There is a very There is a very There is a very There is a very peculiar peculiar peculiar peculiar issue. issue. issue. issue.
I cannot move forward. I cannot move forward. I cannot move forward. I cannot move forward. Now I can.
Now I can. Now I can. Now I can. OK.
OK. OK. OK.
So, I am moving on So, I am moving on So, I am moving on So, I am moving on to the concept of jurisdiction, which is to the concept of jurisdiction, which is to the concept of jurisdiction, which is to the concept of jurisdiction, which is an extremely important and crucial concept in an extremely important and crucial concept in an extremely important and crucial concept in an extremely important and crucial concept in the law. the law. the law. the law. Also, in constitutional democracies. Also, in constitutional democracies.
Also, in constitutional democracies. Also, in constitutional democracies. They are always They are always They are always They are always limited to a specific group of limited to a specific group of limited to a specific group of limited to a specific group of people or countries people or countries people or countries people or countries and that means and that means and that means and that means to the people who live to the people who live to the people who live to the people who live in that state in that state in that state in that state and we call that and we call that and we call that and we call that a a a a d d d d em em em em os os os os , , , , people.
people. people. people. Law is always restricted to that Law is always restricted to that Law is always restricted to that Law is always restricted to that and it means and it means and it means and it means that the sort of that the sort of that the sort of that the sort of questions that law has to ask, I'm going to questions that law has to ask, I'm going to questions that law has to ask, I'm going to questions that law has to ask, I'm going to take the take the take the take the example of fairness. example of fairness.
example of fairness. example of fairness. What is fear? What is fear? What is fear? What is fear? At this moment, it is an important subdomain in At this moment, it is an important subdomain in At this moment, it is an important subdomain in At this moment, it is an important subdomain in computer science, trying to invest computer science, trying to invest computer science, trying to invest computer science, trying to invest in developing fear computing systems in developing fear computing systems in developing fear computing systems in developing fear computing systems that make clear decisions and that make clear decisions and that make clear decisions and that make clear decisions and the first thing the first thing the first thing the first thing a computer scientist would a computer scientist would a computer scientist would a computer scientist would say is to say is to say is to say is to define fairness in such a way define fairness in such a way define fairness in such a way define fairness in such a way that it can be formalised.
that it can be formalised. that it can be formalised. that it can be formalised. The problem is that you can find fairness The problem is that you can find fairness The problem is that you can find fairness The problem is that you can find fairness as a computer scientist as a computer scientist as a computer scientist as a computer scientist demonstrated a couple of years ago in at least demonstrated a couple of years ago in at least demonstrated a couple of years ago in at least demonstrated a couple of years ago in at least 21 different ways. 21 different ways.
21 different ways. 21 different ways. Of course, there are many more. Of course, there are many more. Of course, there are many more. Of course, there are many more.
And I mean computational decisions And I mean computational decisions And I mean computational decisions And I mean computational decisions , computational definitions. , computational definitions. , computational definitions. , computational definitions.
That means That means That means That means that when you implement the definition of that when you implement the definition of that when you implement the definition of that when you implement the definition of fairness into the system, then it will fairness into the system, then it will fairness into the system, then it will fairness into the system, then it will start taking decisions that arefair start taking decisions that arefair start taking decisions that arefair start taking decisions that arefair in that particular sense and the loggers in that particular sense and the loggers in that particular sense and the loggers in that particular sense and the loggers are used to juggling with different fearless are used to juggling with different fearless are used to juggling with different fearless are used to juggling with different fearless conceptions conceptions conceptions conceptions and different perspectives on and different perspectives on and different perspectives on and different perspectives on the honest like the honest like the honest like the honest like fair fair fair fair compared to what and if you're thinking about an compared to what and if you're thinking about an compared to what and if you're thinking about an compared to what and if you're thinking about an algorithm that decides on benefits for algorithm that decides on benefits for algorithm that decides on benefits for algorithm that decides on benefits for unemployed people then you could say fair unemployed people then you could say fair unemployed people then you could say fair unemployed people then you could say fair compared to what so should we compare the compared to what so should we compare the compared to what so should we compare the compared to what so should we compare the fairness here to fairness in contract law fairness here to fairness in contract law fairness here to fairness in contract law fairness here to fairness in contract law or in punishment? or in punishment? or in punishment? or in punishment? Think of a complex algorithm. Think of a complex algorithm. Think of a complex algorithm.
Think of a complex algorithm. Fair Fair Fair Fair compared to who? compared to who? compared to who? compared to who? Are we talking about are the people who are Are we talking about are the people who are Are we talking about are the people who are Are we talking about are the people who are denied wrongfully a benefit or are we denied wrongfully a benefit or are we denied wrongfully a benefit or are we denied wrongfully a benefit or are we talking about fairness, unfairness to the people talking about fairness, unfairness to the people talking about fairness, unfairness to the people talking about fairness, unfairness to the people who are paying taxes who are paying taxes who are paying taxes who are paying taxes and idea by paying and idea by paying and idea by paying and idea by paying for unfairly attributed for unfairly attributed for unfairly attributed for unfairly attributed unemployment benefits unemployment benefits unemployment benefits unemployment benefits . . . . In the last question, In the last question, In the last question, In the last question, fair fair fair fair in respect of what, are we talking about private in respect of what, are we talking about private in respect of what, are we talking about private in respect of what, are we talking about private interest? interest? interest? interest? The interest of one particular person does The interest of one particular person does The interest of one particular person does The interest of one particular person does not wrongly or rightly get the benefit or are not wrongly or rightly get the benefit or are not wrongly or rightly get the benefit or are not wrongly or rightly get the benefit or are we talking about the public interest that we talking about the public interest that we talking about the public interest that we talking about the public interest that everybody has a decent income or a public everybody has a decent income or a public everybody has a decent income or a public everybody has a decent income or a public interest about redistribution of interest about redistribution of interest about redistribution of interest about redistribution of income? income? income? income? This is at the national level. This is at the national level. This is at the national level.
This is at the national level. What I'm trying to say is that a lawyer What I'm trying to say is that a lawyer What I'm trying to say is that a lawyer What I'm trying to say is that a lawyer is used to having all these different is used to having all these different is used to having all these different is used to having all these different considerations around fairness in their head considerations around fairness in their head considerations around fairness in their head considerations around fairness in their head . . . . Not always deliberately because lots of this is Not always deliberately because lots of this is Not always deliberately because lots of this is Not always deliberately because lots of this is tacit knowledge but it is a very different tacit knowledge but it is a very different tacit knowledge but it is a very different tacit knowledge but it is a very different thing from what a computer scientist might thing from what a computer scientist might thing from what a computer scientist might thing from what a computer scientist might want to do and also because they might be want to do and also because they might be want to do and also because they might be want to do and also because they might be more intere
2021-03-17