MTP NOW Feb. 22 — Russia-China meeting; fmr. National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley
if it's Wednesday President Biden wraps up his historic wartime trip to Eastern Europe meeting with NATO allies amid renewed concerns of a russia-china Alliance and renewed nuclear saber rattling inside the Kremlin plus increased scrutiny on the toxic trained derailment in Ohio as Federal investigators prepare to release their initial findings following a campaign stop from former president Donald Trump that shut down the area's schools today and in today's trail mix another potential Republican Presidential hopeful barnstorms Iowa Trump and DeSantis try to carve out lanes with primary voters and a key Democrat announces he's running for re-election [Music] happy Wednesday welcome to Meet the Press now I'm Chuck Todd reporting from Washington right now President Biden is headed back to Washington from Poland where he commemorated the upcoming first anniversary of the start of the war in Ukraine a trip that included a defiant demonstration of Western support and Kiev on Monday a guarantee against Russian Victory from Warsaw on Tuesday and a meeting with front line members of NATO's defense against Russia today also happening right now the U.N General assemblies meaning ahead of a vote on a resolution calling for a quote comprehensive just and Lasting peace in Ukraine that vote is not expected until tomorrow and all of that comes as that war enters its second year with the U.S and our allies facing renewed concerns of an expanding conflict because as President Biden was meeting with allies in Eastern Europe Vladimir Putin was meeting with beijing's top Diplomat Wang Yi who according to Reuters pledged that China is ready to deepen its strategic partnership with Russia this after Secretary of State Tony blinken told me on Sunday the U.S officials are
concerned China May provide lethal military aid to Russia to help boost its struggling military operation in Ukraine is it weapons is it uniforms what it is is unclear meanwhile Russian officials are once again escalating their rhetoric around nuclear weapons as a top Putin Ally defended the regime's decision to suspend its participation in the last remaining nuclear arms treaty in the world with the United States saying that if the United States wants to defeat Russia then we have the right to defend ourselves with any weapons including nuclear weapons earlier today before his meeting with those Eastern European NATO members President Biden condemned Russia's move to pull out of the nuclear start treaty Mr President any reaction to including changing pulling out a new start I don't have time no time folks the trajectory of these past few days and the last year has put us on a road towards more conflict it appears with Russia and now also China what's unclear is what will de-escalate these tensions Putin faces a potential existential threat to his rule if he loses to Ukraine China appears willing to prop up the kremlin's efforts for some reason and the U.S and NATO have pledged they will stand behind Ukraine to the very end here's what NATO Secretary General Jan stoltenberg had to say this morning as the alliance met with President Biden we don't know when the war will end but when it does we need to ensure that history does not repeat itself we have seen the Russian pattern of aggression over many years Georgia in 2008 Crimea and Don boss in 2014 and then the full fledged invasion of Ukraine last year we cannot allow Russia to continue to chip away at European security we must break the cycle of Russian aggression well joining me now from Warsaw my colleague Christian Walker who's been covering the president's trip and Kristen what's interesting is the president met with basically the Eastern flank of the NATO alliance those countries that border Russia and or Ukraine the Eastern Alliance has been a has wanted has wanted to be a more aggressive more helpful to Ukraine than arguably the Western flank of the NATO alliance what was the theme of today's meeting and what was President Biden hoping to get out of it well Chuck you hit on it the geography is so important the fact that this is personal for them Russia's aggression toward Ukraine is perceived to be a threat by them as well and so they are increasingly concerned about this war now entering its second year could this impact their own Sovereign territory today President Biden with a firm message that the United States will stand with NATO will protect NATO no matter what really trying to bolster that Alliance and making it clear that the U.S is not backing down for these allies Chuck it is critical and it is personal and so that really was the focus even as President Biden tries to keep Global allies on board with supporting Ukraine and a divided Congress at American public back at home what else was on their agenda uh today was immigration issues on the agenda a lot of them have taken in Ukrainian refugees uh arms to Ukraine are they comfortable get these are the countries that have been giving the Soviet at era weapons because they also had them in stockpile absolutely first to your point about refugees I mean we are here in Poland Chuck a country which has taken an arguably more refugees than any other country more than 1.5 million and so resources are strained here in Poland in those other countries and Leaders with whom President Biden was meeting today so that was a key focus and then the question of Weaponry you have of course the United States and other European allies stepping up how much Weaponry they've been giving to Ukraine but president zielinski including when he stood shoulder to shoulder and met with President Biden earlier this week said he needs more including F-16 fighter jets right now the U.S not prepared to
provide that but look the other thing that was on the agenda is where you started this conversation the fact that President Putin announced that he is suspending uh his partnership in that new start treaty and participation in that new start treaty and I've been talking to Administration officials who say look while they were not all together surprised by this because Russia has not been in compliance with the treaty for quite some time it is still perceived to be an escalation now they point out and caution that this could have been worse you could have had Putin pulling out altogether but this is a step in the wrong direction Chuck and the question remains how does this all end no one has an answer and what about this issue of China providing lethal Aid to Russia any more from the administration on what Aid they're concerned about what kind of uh whether they're having any success at uh having China hold off on doing this well the Secretary of State told you Chuck of course this past Sunday that he had issued a Stern warning to his Chinese counterpart that there would be serious consequences if China did in fact move forward with providing Russia with lethal Aid we've been talking to Administration officials to get their sense of where China stands on this they don't have an update from where that conversation started between you and the Secretary of State on Sunday Chuck but I can tell you they say this is a top concern particularly given that he was in Russia meeting with Putin today and of course Putin saying during that meeting that he now expects China's president to come to Moscow that being met with a lot of skepticism by U.S officials who are concerned that China will only intensify this conflict and make it worse Christian Walker and Warsaw tonight for us Kristen thank you so let's dig deeper into what's going on in Moscow or at least the best we can joining me now two people who have a pretty good sense Michael McFall the former U.S ambassador to Russian NBC News International analyst and Gary kasperoff the chair of the renewed democracy initiative a longtime critic of this current Russian regime Mike let me start with you and the um and China and Russia and this Alliance obviously we're concerned about it what should how seriously do you take China's threat I guess to provide lethal Aid to Russia well they haven't threatened that Chuck that's a very interesting thing they say they're not doing that um and they've stayed to that and up until just this weekend I've been impressed by what they haven't done right they haven't provided these Technologies they haven't provide military assistance and when Xi Jinping sat down with Putin the last time the event in Samar Khan uh Putin went out of his way to say yeah Taiwan is yours yes yes yes that's your territorial Integrity sovereignty and she did not return the favor in the way that he talked about it however when the vice president at the Munich security conference Gary and I were both there by the way when she went out of her way to put that marker down and then blinken did it the day after that suggests to me that they're seeing something in the intelligence that something's happening that they're trying to hide and they chose to try to embarrass the Chinese about it I don't know what it is but you don't put the things like that in the vice president's speech unless you have hard evidence to suggest that they're about to do this well it's interesting you put it that way about because that's what it looked like to me it was sort of like I don't whether how true it is or not make them deny it it seemed that they wanted to put the pressure on the Chinese uh that that's what they're doing um bad time for one year to show up in Moscow by the way if you're trying to say you're on the sidelines here that I don't know if that timing was planned but I want to be clear we don't really know what the US government knows about military assistance and so far Beijing has not uh publicly said that they're doing it right my guess is they were trying to do it quietly and we found out and now we've called their Bluff we've called them on it and they're trying to decide what to do now Gary um we're a year into this war and I I know you certainly were thought that Putin couldn't uh that his eyes were bigger than his stomach but here we are a year in um how does what does the West need to do to get what Joe Biden calls a strategic defeat for Russia and then I want to ask you about that phrase after that but what was it what is it going to take to actually get to that goal weapons to Ukraine more weapons to Ukraine for ukrainians to win the war uh this strategic defeat of Russia it's um it's Ukrainian victory that will include full liberation of Ukrainian territory um a compensation reparations and also International Tribunal for war crimes of genocide uh whether President Biden meant that I am not sure but it's very clear to me that as long as Putin is in control the war will not stop do you um do you believe the West is speaking with clear enough objectives it's getting better but we are not yet there so it was quite a long road from Ukraine to the news Russia should win to almost say Ukraine must win though it's not exactly must it's more like you know you had to shoot with so President Biden's uh trip to Kiev was was a big a big milestone it's um an amazing move very bold move for U.S president to Landon cave and combining this this historic trip with his speech in Warsaw I think it's a clear message that America is almost ready to go as far as it takes for Ukraine to win and I think Putin also understands it because his speech was so weak and and pathetic and that's why I wouldn't even worry too much about the Chinese um moves now behind the scene because I believe China cares about Taiwan what I think they're trying to do is just send message to America you mentioned opportunity yeah that's probably now let's let's let's make a deal we care about Taiwan you care about Ukraine so we don't care very much about Putin because they always supporting us as a junior partner in this relations a subordinate to China so that's why again all this big noise I think it's about Chinese trying to get a better bargaining position with America and Europe Mike I want to go back to President Biden's trip to Cave because I think you know we're you know I don't know why but it isn't registering here in America it's supporting it he's having a hard time selling this politically and he really hasn't you know it's not American lives haven't been lost you know this is one of those things where you normally would think boy he's conducting this the way the American public has said they want our foreign Expeditions conducted and he's getting not only zero Credit in some ways it's a net negative yeah it's striking Chuck it's disappointing to me uh because I think he has played it um in a very precise way to give the Ukrainian support but not have our soldiers there I'm with Gary by the way I think if you want Victory we have to do more uh we're not giving them the weapons they need for this counter-offensive that they're planning in the spring and I think time's gonna run out uh politically time is going to run out um I'll try to talk over that music no I think it's the music from from from uh oh that's fine yeah that's Biden's music you're all right it's just in that sound I know well that was his walkout music I know it was odd at the time it's kind of odd but but but but I think it's striking to me that they don't see the the essence of time in the same way I do and I see it that on Military on the ground but also for Biden's own re-election prospects uh now is the time for breakthrough because if there's not a breakthrough Chuck you're the political expert here in America not me but if this is just grinding on as we roll into the presidential election next year yeah that's not a good look for buying no there's not going to be domestic political support for this if we're in a third year of a stalemate Gary I'm curious about something that the New York Times did a piece over the weekend that indicated that believe it or not one year in it looks like Putin is more popular or has a more of a Stranglehold on the population if you concur with that nobody knows uh because uh the polls in Russia they are conducted you know by the traditional methods but people are not responding I can bet you that none out of ten of those being asked simply don't answer the question on the surface yes he looks very popular okay Hitler was very popular in 1944 in Germany so who cares I don't think we should we should apply the same methods the same measures that are being used to to understand the level of support you just put on the screen 41 of Americans approve President Biden handling the war in Ukraine I don't think that we can use the same metrics in in Russia or in any dictatorship um so what we know is that Putin controls this information bubble and unfortunately um the what Russian public sees it's that uh Russia is not losing no matter what American generals or european politicians saying Russia hasn't lost the war because people don't believe they're losing the war that's why we need Ukrainian success the moment ukrainians penetrate in Crimean Peninsula the moment Russian public understands the war is being lost and then you will see Putin's House of card crumbling what you're saying is Crimea is the the it's funny Crimea is considered Putin's Red Line line you think Crimea is the Public's Red Line it's it's both actually it's Putin's red line for a simple reason Crimea is a staple of Putin mythology dictatorship like Putin do not survive when when when this mythology is being blown are blown away and Ukraine Ukrainian liberation of Crimea will be the end of Putin regime Michael McFall Gary Kasparov I always come smarter about these topics when I have the two of you on thank you both for your perspective still ahead the latest on the toxic train derailment in Ohio including today's campaign stop from former president Trump and tomorrow's visit from Transportation secretary Pete bootages plus Republican senator Tim Scott a potential presidential candidate heads to Iowa to deliver a message about the future of the Republican party in his view you're watching Meet the Press now foreign Administration faces the prospect of an expanded conflict involving Russia and China former Bush Administration officials are looking back at the evolution of U.S relations with both of
those adversaries Stephen Hadley was President George W Bush's National Security advisor he's got this terrific new book I'm going to call it a reference book that looks at a foreign policy transitions from one Administration to the next how it works and the mentions that the Bush Administration may have failed to anticipate when it comes to the possibility of a russia-china strategic alignment so join me on set is Stephen Hadley the book is called handoff the foreign policy George W bush passed Barack Obama and again I think and let's I want to talk about Russia and China first but it's basically a reference book of your of the Bush administration's foreign policy and everything they left every memo is sort of like here you go to Susan Rice and her team I think she was the first national security advisor no she was Steve Jones no Jim Jones that's right and his team this was the material you handed off to them right exactly right the memos basically said here's what we found here is our strategy here's what we did and here's what's left to be done and here are the things that might bite you to the new Administration where they came in we then updated those the people who wrote the memos 14 years later came back updated them and said what's happened since what does it say about how we did and how the country has been doing and handling these issues and this is the part I found fascinating because again it's just sort of it's a very it's what you hope uh government officials people like yourself do with our tax dollars and frankly it's just it's a it's a good transparent way of thinking so let's talk about Lessons Learned with the two topics we're on Russia and China so let's start with China you guys left office Sujin Tau was there and and she was the vice Premier that most people expected to be The Heir Apparent um what did the administration think of them then and and what's the look back memo on that one one of the things if you look at that memo in the book it's striking how different the China President Bush faced is from the China we see today totally different the China then was looking for a benign International environment so they could focus on their own domestic renewal and construction of their society and it was a China that wanted to be part of the International System rather than overturning it and wanted a constructive relationship with the United States so what we tried to do to say all right let's see if we can bring China into the International System so they will support it and be part of it but at the same time let's hedge our bets so we tried to strengthen our our relations with our local allies Japan South Korea and Australia we of course created a strategic relationship with India which is now more and more important given China's behavior and we strengthened our own diplomatic economic trade and military position the region to create a context which would give incentive for China to come our way but also give a plan platform in the event China decided not to and that of course is the platform that divided Administration is using now with August and all these other and the quad and all the other devices to try to manage this more aggressive and hegemonic China that we face today what do you think we missed on she when I say we the collective American intelligence community on him it's hard to know you know you never know what a person is going to be as a president until they actually become president but we clearly misread him we thought the dominant opinion was that he was going to be an economic reformer and might also be a political reformer I recall a minority view at the time that wait a minute this is a party man first and last and he is going to use the party to strengthen political control and strength in China and that's turned out to be who he was in addition he's much more of an ideologue than we thought much more a a quite frankly a Marxist than we anticipated at the time he's in some sense a throwback and it shows you who runs a country matters because he really took the country in a very different direction than Johnson or who Jintao was taking the country his two predecessors and now I have to say that visual moment we got about three months ago when uh at the at the Chinese Communist Party meeting where they escorted out of the building I mean in some ways it it's it's it's more striking knowing this now there was also always about four different factions that were balanced in the standing committee of the Pollock Bureau and what she did basically over the last several years was break the back of each of those Alternatives so that everybody who's now in the standing committee of the pilot Bureau is from the chief action and he's a She-Man all right when you guys left office it was a guy named Dimitri Medvedev and what I what's interesting here is what you just described about she that he's a party man the same thing is going through my head with Medvedev because as president he made it seem as if he was going to be he was the reformer he was the guy you could deal with Putin's my crazy uncle over here I'm keeping him in control and now he certainly looks like a party man as he's the one doing all the saber rattle you know meditative under the the period of the Obama Administration when he was president uh made a couple mistakes in terms of his own standing within the Russian people he went along with the Libya operation by the Europeans which did not go the way Russia wanted and I think he ended up damaged and I think was quite stunned when rather than being able to run for re-election and get a second term basically said no basically said I'm back as president you can you can work for me so you think that was a moment of Shame for him I do and I think he's now not going to make that mistake again he's never going to let anybody get to the right of him on these very issues and I think that's one of the reasons why is your prior guest said he has now become the mouthpiece for those who say don't forget the nuclear capability and if we're if we're threatened we'll use it yeah it's like after George Wallace lost the first time uh it sounds like Dimitri Medved I've learned a lesson and he's decided he's going to stick by I think that's right the party method Stephen Hadley again uh the handoff it's a treasure Trove for historians for anybody that cares about these things and foreign policy I'm so glad you put the project together SMU it's with the bush Library the book is a standalone in addition there's an online archive that has the transition memos and all the voluminous attachments to them so if you want to know about Bush warrant policy get the book consult the archive there you go Stephen Hadley nice to see you thanks for having me on the heels of Putin's announcement that Moscow was suspending participation in the only remaining nuclear arms control treaty between the world's two largest nuclear powers in today's beat the Press minute we rewind to April 2010 shortly after that new start treaty was signed here's then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on the treaty's promise of protection for the United States and its allies if this nuclear disarmament decision represents Middle Ground is it enough to make the world safer it certainly is and I I know that this is a very important issue that I thank you for discussing with us because the president's position is very clear we will always protect the United States our partners and allies around the world our nuclear deterrent will remain uh secure safe and effective in doing so but we also think we will ultimately be safer if we can introduce the idea that the United States is willing to enter into arms treaties with Russia to reduce our respective nuclear arsenals and that we're going to stand against non-proliferation in a way that will perhaps deter others from acquiring nuclear weapons and so you have to look at the entire package nuclear posture review the new start treaty and the nuclear security Summit foreign s today announced he'll go to East Palestine Ohio tomorrow it will be his first visit to the town since that disastrous trained derailment earlier this month the national Transportation safety board is expected to release the findings of its preliminary investigation into what led to the derailment and the actions of the train company after and today former president Donald Trump made a campaign appearance of sorts I guess in East Palestine toward a creek near the derailment site and visited a firehouse he also received a briefing on the impact of the chemicals released by The derailment East Palestine schools were closed ahead of Trump's visit by the way Jesse curse joins me now from East Palestine Ohio so Jesse I saw there's some new statements from the CEO of Norfolk Southern blaming misinformation on and saying that that's holding back uh cleanup I mean this looks like this is going to be a very contentious back and forth once we receive these preliminary findings from the uh safety board yeah there's a lot of finger pointing going on this is becoming a political football Chuck in at the heart of it are thousands of people who aren't sure of their own health and their livelihoods here because they're worried about the contamination in this community they're also worried about the stigma even if there is in fact not any contamination lingering there's the question of if people will still want to work here and and and and come to this community uh to spend time here and that's something that I just heard from a man a short time ago he's a business owner he's currently building a facility that he's hoping is going to be rented out for businesses for storage here and something that he thought would be able to be rented immediately is now something uh that he he may think he thinks he may have to sit on for a little while so these are the kinds of concerns people have on top of the worries about their health after we saw that toxic plume go up in the sky here nearly three full weeks ago tomorrow we're going to get the ntsb's preliminary report that's what the national Transportation safety board says and so we'll be looking for any explanation as to why this Train derailed nearly three weeks ago so those are questions that are out there you have the EPA claiming that it is going to make sure that the Norfolk Southern Railroad pays for the damage done here pays for the cleanup pays for reimbursements for cleaning that the EPA does but you also have residents skeptical as to whether or not that accountability will actually be seen if politicians are involved that's something that we've heard from residents here and we're going to see uh something interesting tonight we're expecting to see an appearance at a town hall with both the EPA administrator and the CEO from Norfolk Southern so it's going to be interesting to see those two on stage together uh potentially and you know how they both posture in this but the railroad for its part has made clear it says it's working with government officials and says that it will be cleaning up and that it is not packing up and leaving town tomorrow they say they're here for the Long Haul to try to do right by this community you know I saw these trust issues I thought it was interesting that governor dewine and and the administrator from the EPA Michael Reagan went house to house almost testing water is that what it's going to take to try to build trust in this community that seems skeptical even if the experts say hey your water's fine here we'll drink it well mind you even though that's going on you also have people who get their water from Wells being told until final testing is finished they should be drinking bottled water we know more bottled water continues to be coming in here including with help from the former president who visited today so you have all that playing out and the governor just put out an update governor dewine of Ohio just put out another update saying that there's still a portion of contaminated waterways that is damned off so these are the visuals people are seeing in this community and there's certainly still skepticism out here about what people are expecting in the days weeks months and certainly years to come because there are people I can tell you who do not think that if the air and water is testing clean right now that doesn't mean that it will down the road necessarily no and like a perfect storm of skepticism on Corporate America governments local State national all conversion uh on East Palestine Jesse curse on the ground forest in East Palestine Jesse thank you still ahead some help for Democrats as they brace for a potentially brutal 2024 Senate map they get one one of their embattled incumbents to say yes this is Meet the Press now welcome back we have some 2024 election news to get through Montana Senator John tester announced today that he will be seeking re-election in 2024 Chester first elected in 2006 has survived multiple elections in the Republican leaning State that's good news for Democrats who didn't really have a plan B if tester had said no they need to defend quite a few seats if they want to hold on to their slim Senate majority in 2024 got a great panel actually to talk Senate if we want to spend the whole time doing it joining me now are is our panel Eugene Daniels political White House correspondent NBC News political contributor senior advisor at the Strategic Victory fund Stephanie Sharia and Republican strategist Brad Todd that's what I mean we could really do some tenant races there but the tester news um more like a sense of relief to Democrats than excitement right you hear a collective sigh throughout Washington DC and around the country for Democrats because you said they didn't have a plan B didn't have a c a bae in that state in particular I saw somebody Google exactly I saw somebody Googling Ryan Switzer today and I thought what happened to that guy because it's going to be a rough it is going to be a rough Senate map for Democrats in 2024 and so they're trying to hold on to the incumbents as much as they can and in these states like Montana States like West Virginia those kind of republican-leaning states that is where they need to make sure they keep those incumbents well you manage that 06 right right somebody [Music] so you had convinced me a while ago that you thought he was more likely to run than not run that he's too competitive to walk away a little competitive yeah yes that's true um he also loves his date this is oh yeah he met every Montana in town we loved our state so much so much if I would say that the biggest difference between mansion and tester and I'll be curious what Brad's take is on this in a minute I know is Mansion will go out of his way to make sure he knows he'll criticize the Democrats tester doesn't do that do you think he needs to do it more to survive no I didn't test her needs to be tester that is that has always been the case we he is so I described it in 2006 and hasn't changed one bit that's the other thing it hasn't changed one bit the guy is the same guy as he was then he's the guy we all grew up with in Montana that's why he's popular is why everybody likes him he just says it like it is he gets along with everybody who try you know tries to work with everybody but he loves Montana and the montanans love him so you said the Democrats are relieved I've got to say a lot of people in Montana the montanans are relieved that he's running again Brad why do you think Republicans have struggled to defeat him in the past well you know he has a conservative haircut and a liberal voting record and it's uh I knew you have something in 2018. in 2018 we've heard we heard uh in 2018 the best Democratic year in our lives he gets 50 on the dot and he also had the advanced that he had ever gotten to 50. Mitch McConnell's leadership pack didn't show up on the air till October 23rd that's not going to happen this time Mr College pack got out spent two to one that's not going to happen you're gonna have a weird primary though it's not gonna happen Republicans have to have the Senate the nominee whoever he is will have a lot more support I don't think McConnell will make that mistake again it was a mistaken I don't think he'll do it again uh I want to Pivot to a little presidential politics I want to play a little something from Mike Pence today somebody decided to zag while just about every other Republican these days on Social Security is zigging take a listen when you look at the 22 election cycle it's it's a affirmation that elections are about the future our candidates that were focused on the past particularly on relitigating the last election did not do well including in areas that we should have done very well did you say we need someone else in 2024 you're on record saying that I've said we I think we're gonna have better choices than former president Trump I I think we're gonna throw out well it was not the clip I meant to play the clip I meant to play was him deciding Brad that he's going he's not afraid of touching Medicare and Social Security and he is saying hey these need to be reformed don't run away from it well I think you know vice president Pence is looking for his Lane right he's drafting in a crowded field and he's looking for he's looking for a Slicker part of the track uh and so I think he's probably trying to revive the Ryan wing of the Republican Party sort of the green eye shade Wing that that worships at the altar balanced budgets and not a dotted policy side and I I don't think it'll work I think realignment has moved past that uh I don't know Republican there's not a there's not a there's not a voting electorate for that I don't think there's a voting electorate that has a Zeal for entitlement reform because they sense the political impossibility of it there's a there's a Zeal for Deaf reducing deficits and reducing debt but I think that voters become pragmatic right I mean that's why Democrats are very liberal or clinging to Joe Biden is why Republicans are moving away from Donald Trump because they're pragmatic yeah and so I think that they're sensing that entitlement reform is not going to happen especially in divided government town I don't think there'll be a market for it Eugene I think it's been interesting to watch Pence he does feel like all right I'm going to run the race that I want to run he's also uh he's not shying away from being involved in the administration that overturned Roe v Wade he's embracing it more so than Donald Trump is no he is he and he is going to I've talked to some aides of his former aides of his what they say is he's going to have to do things he is completely uncomfortable with if he wants any chance in this not what does that look like um but how he just kind of tapped at Donald Trump people who um look at talk about the old old races and not looking forward they're saying no you have to say his name you have to say the guy that I worked with I liked what we did in in those four years but now we're looking forward and that's something that he seems completely uncomfortable doing but I think if he's going to pop out a lot of these folks who work Haley's in that same boat Mike Pompeo anyone who worked under Donald Trump they're going to have to figure out how to differentiate themselves other than picking entitlement reform they're gonna have to go right at Donald Trump you know well obviously you'd love to see my pets as the Republican nominee because it would give Democrats too easy issues to hit them with would it not abortion rights and entitlements yes it would but I still think even though you see some Donald Trump slippage in the polls all these people are going to jump in and here we go again we've been to this Rodeo Donald Trump swings and he swings hard and and just was said you got to swing back and I'm just not seeing these Republicans willing to sling back at him I just I don't see it and then we're going to end up with the winner take all Races through these primary season you're going to see Trump in the lead really quickly Brad I was mildly surprised to see I thought it was a bit risky for Trump to go to East Palestine because it his presence there is only as a campaigner and that just seemed like a risky thing to look like you're doing well it's a part of the country and and a demographic that's pretty key to his Coalition so I think he's going there to for brand protection that I get yeah so but it is a little risky is it not looking like for sure but he's a Riverboat Gambler in politics right and he's lived through a lot of Gables that didn't work out and so uh but I think to your to your point the the fact about winner take all about State and winner take all by congressional district that's that's Donald Trump's best strategy right now is the fact that the Republican primary gives a lot of its delegates to people who have a plurality that's not anywhere close to 50 and it's not proportional uh I however I do think that a lot of Republicans you're going to see a lot of Republicans who who were with Donald Trump because they thought he was going to win now not be with Donald Trump because they're they don't think he can win this is right the same fragmentation exactly there we'll take them away exactly well one of the one of the things that when I talk to Republican strategists who are hoping that Donald Trump is not the nominee that they keep telling me is that everyone every Republican knows and has not learned the lesson of one-on-one with Donald Trump is best right they have to get around a room pick somebody and move on is it though like what's the proof of that there's no proof of the opposite yeah because you have you have his 34 to 40 That's not going anywhere every single time they go to one of these states and all of these Republican um candidates these these strategists say think they're the person that they should be the person but then you end up if you end up with an eight nine person um Team or a stage that is rough for Republicans this is them not me all right Joe manchin doesn't put away this idea that he might run for president of another Unity ticket independent whatever you want to call it um I think I'm guessing there's deep skepticism at this table that in our polarized climate that anybody can split the middle what do you make of mentions flirtation well I think it's good for his politics in West Virginia you know and I think I'm hoping it's a good thing this seat in West Virginia what do I need to do to make sure I don't look aligned with the party and I mean I talk about Montana being Republican I mean West Virginia is a whole different level of Republican now Mansion also was governor he's he really knows that state inside and out so I would think of it just more of a general mentioned political strategy to survive in West Virginia that's right I had something it does feel like I had somebody say how is he going to be able to run for president when he basically is the author of the president's signature legislative achievement it's all theater uh it and and Joe manchin's good at theater right he he he plays the independent and eventually goes and tells the Democratic line that's what it'll do again all right Brad Stephanie Eugene thank you all up next the story of A Man convicted of murder and how the letter he sent to an NBC News producer sparked a 20-year investigation that's still ongoing that producer and that former inmate join me next you're watching Meet the president [Music] welcome back more than 20 years ago an inmate at New York Sing Sing Correctional Facility sent a letter to Dateline producer Dan sleppian the inmate J.J Velazquez said he had been convicted of killing a police officer three years earlier but he maintained his innocence and he wanted slepion's help improving well now the story of their effort to exonerate JJ has been made into NBC News Studio's first original podcast letters from sing-sing a story that already is resonating with viewers it's been number one on the Apple podcast charts since its release take a listen to some of JJ's first letter to Dan I know I don't belong here but I am a firm believer that everything that happens to us in life is for a purpose in no way am I condoning the Injustice that has occurred in my life but this incarceration has given me the opportunity to observe the world from another perspective well I'm joined Now by both JJ Velasquez and Dan sleppian and JJ I want to start with you um what's it been like to relive all of this surreal in one word um the reality is 18 months ago I had no idea where I'd be today you know for 24 years practically all I knew was living in a cage living in a way that doesn't Define humanity properly and coming out of that and having the opportunity to be home although I'm not technically free um it's it's everything that you know I've been waiting for all this time in terms of being able to reunite with my family in terms of just being able to make certain decisions in my life for myself like your choices are very limited when you're incarcerated Dan what made you take this letter and say I gotta help this man there was just something about JJ's letter that touched me he's so smart he it was meticulous his letter and it just made me more curious to know about him and what really that spark Chuck was a 20-year journey into a very dark abyss for me into the criminal legal system you know this there's a reason this podcast the seven episodes and and that's because it's a how and why not only people are wrongfully convicted but how and why it's so hard to get those convictions overturned even in the face of very clear evidence of Innocence to anybody who's willing to look at it the most I guess the hardest part JJ you mentioned something you're not yet free in some ways here you have I want to play the president United States is apologize to you I want to note this here let's play this apology first of all on behalf of all Society I apologize for it I mean 23 years my God I must have felt like some level of vindication JJ and at the same time you're not you're not fully exonerated yet right um the reality is that was a moment that I was waiting for the entire 24 years of my incarceration and um the re you know like getting that that moment where the president is actually apologizing to me I I was waiting for a prosecutor to apologize to me I never fathomed the president actually apologizing on behalf of society and it was very heartfelt very much appreciated but the reality is is that to get to the White House I needed to get permission from parole you know I'm on a curfew so it's it's crazy to have the president of the United States apologize to me right yet I'm still living on parole on the conditions that limit my freedom Dan explain why is this the case why has this been so hard to get him fully exonerated his sentence got commuted but not exonerated right that's why again I'm sorry that's why the podcast the seven episodes there's no easy answer to that and the the truth is is that this what JJ story does is it elevates this issue Beyond just JJ where JJ went through and is still going through is representative of tens of thousands if not more people who don't have their voices heard and JJ is is has this platform to be able to tell his story and he's opened up his world to us and I think it's going to educate a lot of people and I think it's going to teach a lot of people about how damaged our system is particularly when there is clear evidence of Innocence well let's talk about that damage JJ I mean what's something you hope now that look you you you're taking your story and you're gonna hopefully try to share it with enough people to make some change what's it what's a first change you'd like to see so that it doesn't happen to somebody else well I don't know if it would be the first change but the biggest change that we really need to look at is prosecutorial indifference right for prosecutors to be like the vanguards of Justice when the truth is in front of you and you realize that a mistake has been made you have to accept that you can't just be indifferent to the fact that an innocent person is languishing in prison and if and on top of it I have two sons and a mother that was suffering the entire time you know so having prosecutors actually be you know like the vanguards of Justice to show Integrity when there's a mistake made accept it right fix it move on and that actually sucks that's actually something else that this podcast does letters from Sing Sing is that it talks about the cut the effect of incarceration the collateral effect I met JJ's kids when they were eight and five years old they're now 28 and 25. wow and you know JJ used to write me letters that he was concerned for his oldest son and his oldest son ended up doing a few years in prison when he was in his early 20s so we get really into the weeds of this Dan I'm just you know we talk about a lot of misconduct by police officers and we want police officers held accountable we never hear about prosecutors being held accountable for misconduct um is that just something that's just too hard to make happen frankly I think that we don't hear about people in power generally in the criminal justice system being held accountable for a lot of things that happen like most prosecutors and most police I believe are good people who are doing all the or in the job for all the right reasons but when you know there's qualified immunity there's laws that protect people in you know in who are prosecutors and police for making certain decisions and that what you just asked about accountability is the next step step of this fight no it's the big glaring it's the big glaring missing piece here it's a lack of accountability on the prosecutorial side of things anyway and that's the point of this I want people who are seeing listening to this 20 years from now think about what you're doing now because it never goes away Dan you've devoted most of your professional life to this J.J Velasquez
uh I don't think there are enough apologies out there for what you went through but thank you both for spending a few minutes with me thanks for having us appreciate it NBC News Now coverage will continue with Tom Costello who's in for my friend Hallie Jackson right now foreign thanks for watching our YouTube channel follow today's top stories and breaking news by downloading the NBC News app
2023-02-27 09:47
