Webinar on Digital Technology and Outdoor Education - September 2021 Short Version

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Let me introduce to you our main speakers, so, we have three speakers and a bonus speaker. Start off with Imre van Kraalingen, who  is doing her PhD on the role and impact   of mobile technology and technological  mediation in higher education in Norway Imre is based in Oslo. Jack Reed's PhD is on the influences of networked   spaces on experiences of residential outdoor  education at the Outward Bound Trust in the UK Jack is based in Edinburgh. Dave Hills is based at the University  of Sunshine Coast in Australia.

His PhD is on optimising the management of  digital technology in outdoor education. I am super excited by having  these three PhD students here, precisely, not only because they  are lovely people and smart people, and have a lot to offer. But   I always think that it is the PhD students out  there who are most on top of the literature.

They are the ones most immersed in  it, day after day, week after week,   year after year. Hopefully not too many years. So, it is wonderful to be able to bring up  this really current knowledge of the field. But we have also asked Brendon Munge from   Australia to join us as what  I would call an 'offsider'. So he's going to join us in the plenary. Brendon  has a lot of experience with working with   outdoor technology at the  tertiary level especially. We have asked him a long to challenge some  of the point being made by the presenters and maybe act as a sort of, we want  him along with some of you others, to feel like you can be critical. You don't have  

to believe everything that  is being presented to you. And we want to be asking the difficult questions:   sure, but how would that work  in the real-world practice? So, Brendon will take on an additional role there. Right, just a couple of more bits of  introduction, and we will be off to the races. Our working definition today  for digital technologies is: 'electronic tools, systems and devices that can  record, store, process and present information.'

electronic tools, systems and devices that can  record, store, process and present information. We mean this to include all  parts of the experience:   before, going into the field,  during and after the experience. It could be on expeditions,   residential experiences, local learning  outside the classroom and so on...

I'll also say that there has always  been technology in outdoor education. And, Bob Henderson, years ago, said to me:   'Oh, there always has been  technology in outdoor education, just look at the canoe. Its design was so good  that it hasn't changed in a thousand years.' With the advent of digital technology,   however, and the rapid rise and  ubiquity of digital technology in our outdoor education practices, seemed  to have raised all kinds of questions, dilemmas, conflicts, and so on, that occur here at   the intersection of mobile technology  use and working with people outdoors.

And it is the believe of the people who are  presenting today and the organising group   of this webinar, that there is a disproportionately low amount  of rigorous research that has been done   on these kinds of practices. So that is the rationale for this  webinar, that's why we're here. We are here to   generate some discussion around this intersection  of outdoor learning and digital technology. We want to hear from you as well. I think I've said all that I should. It's eleven  minutes past the hour, and let's get started. Any burning questions before we  continue? I can't see everybody's hands, but maybe put it in the  chat if you think: 'hang on,   I have a burning question, you can't begin yet.'

Right, you've had your opportunity  to ask a burning question. Okay! Let's kick this thing off! So jazzed that you're all here.  We've got 68 people joining us live. This is our first statement that the  three panellists are going to respond to. The use of digital technology in outdoor education  is fundamentally contrary to all its key value. Hmm... Okay. Jack, you're on! Alright. Thank you very much, Simon. Good  morning, good afternoon, good evening everybody.

Nice to see loads of familiar names and  also some new names. Hi from Edinburgh! I should probably get started here, by asking:   what are the key values in  British Outdoor Education? That's the context I'm in here. I don't intend to spend too much time on this, but   the values that underpin British outdoor  and specifically adventure education can at least be traced back  to the romantic period. But I think can also be traced back  to the post Second World War area. And concentrates on adventure as a kind of medium  for personal development and also personal growth. This is something that a colleague  and I recently discussed in a small   scale paper on fear in outdoor learning.  But I think there's also value placed on  

accessing natural places which disconnect us  from what are faced-paced, and I think also   technological lives. And we see this emphasized  in writings such as Brian Wattchow's for instance   'pedagogy of production' and Payne and Wattchow's  'pedagogy for post-traditional outdoor education'. So, I think these five minutes are going to  focus on this disconnection, and in some ways   kind of focus on experiential purity. Yeah,  I think in the next sort of 5 minutes or so. When thinking about the kind of removal  of phones and subsequently social media in   informal outdoor education at least,  I think we could run into a problem   when we think about just how connected  young people are in contemporary society.

So, we know that young people, or at least  the kind of generation Zs and generation As   of global North societies, so that's those born  from late 1990s through to the present day or so.   Know nothing different in a world  that is both technologically sustained   and critically also technologically reliant.  I think, whether it be Snapchat and TikTok or   text messaging or WhatsApp, the young people who  take part in outdoor education, are kind of part   of a networked environment which facilitates  and sustains aspects of young people's lives, particularly aspects such as community,  friendship and also, critically, identity. And of course we also see  relationship and community development   as core program outcomes in outdoor education.  So, it's the position of network spaces   that they naturally become an  integral part of learning outdoors. So, whilst young people might not  necessarily be on their phones   during formal activities such as caving or maybe  rock climbing, they will undoubtedly be parts of   these networks' back channels - before and  after these formal learning experiences.

And I think crucially here, network spaces   also offer opportunity for outdoor learning  to continue long after the initial experience, so things such as sharing images, new  friends, maybe even social media posts   themselves can kind of provide a living  archive which will be revisited by young   people for years to come after their initial  experience. This kind of creates a new arena I   think in outdoor education for young people  to make sense of these forms of experience. So me being onto my third and final point  from a networked and connectivity perspective,   which, of course, naturally includes mobile  technology and social media, I, personally, I'm   unconvinced that these forms of mobile technology  are fundamentally contrary for outdoor education, and I believe that leveraging these spaces  can potentially at least further the impact   of meaningful and long-lived outcomes  when taking learning beyond the classroom. So, in light of that, I think I would  like to at least conclude with my own   positionality statement, and that is  that network spaces and connectivity   play a critical role in and  beyond outdoor education. So, as practitioners, we of course  have a choice about whether we include   technology in practice or not,  but it's absolutely important   that we recognize that all of  our participants will arrive,   take part, and leave these outdoor learning  contexts as part of numerous online networks, which of course facilitates  interpersonal connection,   friendship, and critically, I think memories.

So, with that in mind, I'd like to pass back  to Simon, who I think will pass on to Imre.   Thank you very much. Thanks, Jack. Right on time. Let's see.   There we go over to Imre. Thank you, and thank you  Jack for kicking this off. As you can see on the slide, I'll be giving a  perspective from the Norwegian context and I   also would like to start with sharing some  of the key values from the Norwegian context, as internationally there is no  clear statement of what exactly   the key values are in outdoor education.

So, similar to the context of the UK,  outdoor education in Norway has its roots   in a tradition, the Norwegian tradition of outdoor  life, which is called 'friluftsliv' in Norwegian, and this also dates back to the romantic  period and the back-to-nature movement   where the friluftsliv tradition  aimed to offer a break from the   distresses from everyday urban life and to  help reconnect the urban population to nature. So, these ideals continued to develop  from exploring kind of what at that time   was still considered 'wild nature' or 'free  nature' and also relying on one's own personal   skills to manage oneself in the outdoors  with limited equipment and simple means. And until today, the traditional friluftsliv  is still intertwined with also this idea that   spending time out in nature is good for  people's overall wellbeing. So physical,   mental and emotional wellbeing, and  that holds a very strong position   in Norway's public policy, but  also in the educational policy. So, for a long time outdoor education in Norway  has kind of reflected these original values of   skill development and also personal development  and the direct experience of nature. And I added   an extra key value here that I think is  important, which is the environmental awareness, which, as I understand it,  developed a little bit later on,   when the Norwegian eco-philosophical  traditions emerged, that argued that   experience of nature helps us develop a connection  to nature and raise environmental awareness.

So, these are the key values in   the Norwegian tradition of outdoor  life and outdoor education in Norway. However, if we look at the practice today, we see  more and more use of advanced equipment and people   recording and sharing their outdoor pursuits  with various digital and mobile technologies. And, increasingly, we see also that these  technologies are used in the planning and the   enactment of outdoor education curricula. So, as I understand it, these key  values, when we look at them from a   perspective of using digital technologies,  it really depends on our approach whether   we say that these technologies either hinder or  can support the key values of outdoor education. For example, if we look at the first  two, the skill development and social   and personal development, one can say  that from the traditional approach,   managing oneself in the outdoors with  simple means and limited equipment,   the use of digital technologies would not fit in  in that picture of developing the basic skills. 

However, if we look from a pedagogical approach,  there's a clear example of using, for example,   'how to' videos that are very popular nowadays  that can help and support independent learning. For example, when students or  participants are preparing for a trip. And the same with social and personal development,  we can look at the use of video or photographic   journals in terms of reflecting on an experience  and having a creative tool to process a learning   experience, which is kind of the modern  or digital approach to a field diary. However, when we look at the third Point, I  think this is perhaps the most challenging value.

The development of a connection to nature  and the direct experience of nature. Because when we use digital  technologies in the outdoors,   we have a relation that shifts from a human-nature  connection to a human-technology-nature interface,   where technology becomes a  mediator of human experience. And we can for example think about  how we read online maps or GPS,   rather than learning to read  the features of the landscape   by using a map and by learning to  recognize certain aspects of the landscape.

So, I too would like to share my personal   statement, which is that I think that  it's unrealistic to state that we can   or must avoid using digital technology  in our educational practices, but I think instead we should focus on learning  about and gaining a deeper understanding of   the impact of digital means, how we  can use their potential and how we can   mitigate the disadvantages and that we should  continuously reflect on this, rather than   avoiding to talk about it or denying that digital  technologies in any way influence the field. And we need to learn about it and understand  it, so that we can make better informed   decisions about when, where, how to  use it, or not use it for that matter. I think that was it for now, so I'll hand the word  to Simon, and I think he will pass it on to Dave. Thanks, Imre. Over to you, Dave Hills.

Thanks, Simon. Thanks for everyone for coming. It's great to see you, a great representation  of countries in the chat. It is fantastic to   be here and I really enjoyed working  with Jack and Imre for the past few   months, and thanks very much for hosting, Simon. At this stage, I just want to  recognize the contribution of my   supervisor, Glynn Thomas as well in my work. I know he's also in the feed and he's  currently camped out in the field,   so it's a good effort that he could dial in. So, my response to this question. 'The use of digital technology is  fundamentally contrary to its values'.

The way my research would contribute to this,   and I've been doing my PhD now for  the last four, four and a half years, and I've just finished writing up my data. I  surveyed over 150 outdoor educators from over   20 countries, and completed in-depth interviews  with over 30 participants in over 8 countries. And, my research is suggesting three things that  really would possibly mediate how an outdoor   educator would respond to that statement, or  what mediates responses to that statement. I represented them on my slide, they're  the pedagogical considerations, the   five points on the left, the  application of outdoor education. And really I found that its people's  response to the statement below,   which tends to invoke people's response to  that statement and their opinion on technology.

So, I found that the optimal management  of technology in outdoor education,   whether that's including it or excluding  it, is really critically considering and   responding effectively to those  five pedagogical considerations. So, thinking about the facilitators,  the students, and the learning outcomes,   whether they're formalized or not,  whether they're agreed or not, but really making that  management of technology bespoke   to those three top things I found or  my research suggested is really key. Those two key things at the  bottom and the application of   outdoor education and the organizational  values, to link into Jack and Imre's slides, in Australia, outdoor education in Australia  articulates three applications of outdoor   education on the website: a standard in subject  approach or camp and a teaching methodology, and my research has shown that really that  tends to vary the management of technology. If you're applying outdoor education  in the context, like any other subject,   then often technology has been just as relevant,   whereas if you were perhaps applying  outdoor education in its purest form as   a methodology or pedagogy, then I my research  has shown that at times it's less relevant.

The other thing I found in collecting  my data is that each organization has   their own values and every educator has  their own values of what our education is. And sometimes it's that conflict of values which  just causes that conflict between the inclusion   and exclusion of technology. So, I found it fairly effective   to simply ask people the question  at the bottom, that to what extent   is your application of outdoor education, in  your session, a break from the norm of education? For some outdoor educators that I've spoken to,   it's not, it's another field of education  that's led into the rest of the curriculum,   and technology is normal, and  it's laid in like everything else. For others, their delivery education  has something different. You know,   a complete break from the norm, a disconnection,  and for them that statement is correct, the use of   technology in outdoor education is  fundamentally contrary to its values. So, I think that I'd like to point  out that I'm not advocating for or   against technology in outdoor education.  I think I'm just advocating frameworks for  

outdoor educators to make evidence-based,  critical decisions about how it's managed, and if you would like to  read a bit more about that,   me and Glynn published a framework  upon this work about a year ago,   and I'll put the link in the chat if people  would like to read more about this construct. Thanks, Simon. Thank you, Dave, and thanks all three of  you for getting us off to a great start. So, now this is the discussion for part two  here. So, if we can accept, so that is an if, if we can accept that digital technology  is embedded in outdoor education,   what do we know about its potential and  what are key areas to explore more deeply? And I think that's just to kind of bring  people back to the rationale behind this   webinar, is we're suggesting that there's, I  mean, just as we're seeing in the chat here, there's a huge amount of experience, critical thinking and so on, in the world of  outdoor education and using digital technology.

But there is still a pretty limited, that  literature is limited in terms of what's   been done empirically and has been  published in reliable outlets. So, let's kick things off. Part two. Dave. Fantastic, thanks Simon. And a great  comment there from Greg in the chat,  

it's just led nicely into my slide. He was  asking about when we're going to talk about VR   and AR, and that's exactly what  I'm going to talk about now. I'm also going to pick up on affordance theory  that we've been speaking about, and again,   highlight some of the literature which is  coming out, to read a bit more about this topic. So, basically I haven't come across it, affordance  theory or technological affordance theory that   we've been mentioning, there's some fantastic  research coming out which articulates this   balance or imbalance with technology in society. Basically, affordance theory  is all about the bands between   technological determinism on the one hand,  and social constructivism on the other, and we see this throughout the discussion  that we've had today. We see it politically,  

we see it socially and it's only going to  play out more, I think, in the coming years. So, my research has identified five affordances  of technology in the outdoor education,   all of which have an equal and opposing  side to including and excluding tech, and they are: safety, learning and engagement,   place, environmental connection,  and teamwork and collaboration. And from what I've seen from interviewing 30  people and 150 survey responses from those   twelve different countries is that every  time you include or exclude technology,   you always gain something, but  then you always lose it as well. So, in some ways technology we know makes our   operations safer, but they also  make them less safe as well.

We know that they engage people and turn the task,  but they also distract them at the same time. So, affordance theory really prompts us to look  critically at both sides of the affordance in   making that decision, and trying to think, 'OK,  if I remove everybody's phones, remove everyone's   iPads, or if I give them a digital device, what  am I going to gain and what am I going to lose?' So, what I found in my data is regardless of your  position on technology and outdoor education,   you're always going to gain  something and you lose something.   And that's quite a nice  balanced way to look at it.

To answer the second part of  the question on the slide,   where to next and what do we  need to explore more deeply? As Greg mentioned, we can't have this  discussion without talking about Apple Glass.   We know Apple are really good at disrupting  sectors, and I believe that it's coming next   year and actually going to disrupt a lot  of our world for the better and the worse. Apple glass, the augmented reality  version of what they're bringing out,   is tipped to replace computers and phones. Screen  companies are going out of business with these   revelations, and they think that's  all you'll need in the outdoors, which clearly has a huge issue for our sector  in terms of disconnecting people, or in terms of   getting people to unplug and  unfiltered experience to nature. But looking at it from an affordance theory  standpoint, it might create a greater need to   disconnect and take off those  glasses and engage in the outdoors.

And outdoor education might become one of those   one true places where you can completely  switch off and take that filter off, but I think as a as a profession we really need  to be proactive, and not reactive to Apple'. next   big disruption. Use it to our advantage,  take all the opportunities it gives us and   manage it effectively before students start  turning up on our sessions with these devices. So, I'm hoping to address a lot of these things  in the future, and really continue this work. I wanted to highlight a book chapter  that I've got coming out next year.  

I'll put the link in the thread. It's a chapter  in Glynn, Janet and Heather's book, and hopefully,   if you want to read more about affordance  theory and these topics, please check it out. Thanks, Simon.

Thank you, Dave. OK. Over to you Imre. Thank you. Well, some of the points that I want to  discuss have already briefly come up, which I hope I can just  elaborate a little bit more on,   and I'll also build a little bit  more on Dave's affordance theory.

So, my focus, as mentioned earlier,  is on mobile technology specifically,   and I think this topic has become especially  interesting and even more relevant than it   was before, during the pandemic where digital  mobile technologies have facilitated the concept   of learning anytime, anywhere,  perhaps more than ever before. And so, when we look at the potential  of mobile technology, I think there's   two obvious main characteristics  which are mobility and portability. Together they refer, of course to that users can  communicate at anytime, anywhere and with anyone,   and the fact that they're wireless make it  able for us to bring them along wherever we go   and connect to any network, which of course  depending on the context or on the place, I know that in Norway the 4G and 5G is expanding  to almost anywhere, even further in the mountains. So, this mobility and portability have some   obvious benefits for facilitating  learning out-of-doors, so Dave already introduced the  affordances, but some of the benefits are: the access to information, so I think what we  use very often is checking the weather info,   checking information about the local  environment, planning transportation,  perhaps on winter trips, checking avalanche   warnings or having specific  applications for avalanches. Of course, we can communicate  with our colleagues or   students or participants, or in case of emergency, and it enables us to document  and share information,   and these are only some of the benefits. But of course there's also pitfalls  that we should consider in terms of,   what already has been mentioned, issues of equity  in terms of availability, costs, and access   to the devices and also of  course access to networks, also the use of mobile digital technologies in  terms of how they can distract from a specific   learning activity, and that they may  hinder direct experience of nature, but also that they can increase risk in  terms of providing a technology-driven   sense of false safety, where participants or  students may go into areas for which they don't   have the actual skills to roam those areas, and  if something happens, or if the technology fails,   they are left on their own and  have to rely on their own skills.

So, these are important considerations. Based on the systematized review  I did, which hopefully will be,   it is accepted, it will be hopefully  online available very soon, but I frame these affordances under three  considerations for employing mobile technology,   which are listed here on  the on the PowerPoint slide. And I think regardless of all the  potential of digital technology,   it's very important that we don't use  digital mobile technologies uncritically,   because they may indeed hinder the teaching  and learning objectives, so we should minimize   usage and critically reflect on if we need  to use them and why we need to use them. So, that relates to the second  point, the intentionality,   so that we set very clear pedagogical  intentions, not just for ourselves,   but also reflect on how do we convey these  intentions to the participants, or to students. How do we convey these messages of why do we use  this device? Or why do we use this application   exactly in this moment? What are the risks  that are involved and what are the benefits? And then the adaptation, based on  the suggestions that I've read,   some of the most important  points are to use interactive,   informative and creative tasks that are  also based on teamwork collaboration, but that definitely don't make the device  or the application to focus points, So, that the destructive kind of  effect is mitigated in that way. And I think through all of that,  continuously reflecting is very important, that any use, but also any non-use of digital  technology requires critical examination.

And as I already mentioned in one of the  comments in the discussion around that we   have to consider the different stages. So, the  planning, the enactment or during an activity,   and the post-activity or  reflection and evaluation phases. And that is something I also hope,  throughout my research, to learn more about. And then finally, I think, one thing that  maybe hasn't been mentioned yet is that some people that may be hesitant, or maybe  feel very strongly against using technology,   I think it is so important that when we adopt  digital or mobile technologies in one aspect or   one activity, it doesn't mean that it takes place  in every aspect of our teaching or our practice, so we can make well-informed decisions of   having one activity, for example,  a photo-elicitation assignment, and then having an activity where  we don't use technology at all, and also not to be afraid to talk  with our participants or our students   about these challenges. Do they notice a difference? How  do they experience that? And ask   them the same critical questions and the same  discussion points that we discuss now together.

We shouldn't be hesitant to discuss  that with our students as well. So, what's next? I think  some of the key areas come   to explore more deeply, I mean, I think  I could come up with like 20 points, but I think we should gain a  deeper insight in mapping or   exploring really all the different  ways in which we already use it, and to explore more practical and creative ways  of using digital learning tools in ways that they   can serve the objectives of outdoor  education or of a specific activity. I think the more we learn about this,   the more we can give actual this  practical advices to each other as well. I mean, we're now three PhD students, as  far as we know, working on this topic,   and each of us aims to get to know more about  all these challenges in our own projects. But there's really too much to explore   for just the three of us, and I think one of  the challenges we've discussed together is that   technology advances probably much quicker  than we will be able to finish our PhDs, so we're just trying to keep up here.

And I'm finally, I think one critical aspect  is to better understand the mediating impact   of digital technologies on the actual nature  experience. So, I'm currently writing,   or exploring a postphenomenological  perspective on nature experience.   And, yeah, I hope that that may help us  better understand this final question. I think that's it for now.

Thanks so much, Imre. And now to close  off the presentations, we have Jack Reed. Great. Welcome to those who have just joined  us, I should also say, we've got a   few new faces in here. Thanks for coming.

Over to you, Jack. Great, thanks Simon. And yeah, as the chat was going on in the last  plenary, I was thinking 'my goodness this is   fantastic', 'cause a lot of  this stuff that's coming up   I'm hoping to discuss in these next 5 minutes. So, what do we already know? Well, it's important to say that there is   a significant amount of literature  outside the outdoor education field now, that focuses on young people's  uses and relationships with   both networked spaces, which  of course include social media, and something that I found really helpful  here is the term the 'postdigital', and so I wouldn't mind briefly discussing this,  and I did write a brief paper in Pathways just   recently about this as well, if you're looking to  have a plan to look at this little bit further. The postdigital recognizes that, especially in  a kind of global North context, that this binary   that we've already discussed between the digital  and the non-digital essentially no longer exists. And we don't need to look very far  to see this. Now this little device  

that I have here is my alarm,  it's my diary, it's my camera.   It also offers access to my friends, to  work, and yes, even to those pesky emails. However, as Florian Krammer Peter  Handrich recently discussed,   the postdigital is a strange term. We essentially live in a society  that is more and more digital. So, the kind of 'post' in postdigital  doesn't really make a whole heap of sense.

But what the postdigital represents is  that the digital no longer describes   any meaningful difference. The digital is the  default and it is the unescapable condition.  So, why does that matter for outdoor education? Well if we begin from the standpoint that we  no longer have a so-called non-digital sphere, then it's reasonable to suggest at least   that outdoor education is embedded and  sustained in a truly digital culture. And I think this is important really, when  we're thinking about how learning is both   embedded and sustained for young people  in contemporary educational contexts. So, that's the postdigital, and that's the  kind of collapsing binary that I mentioned   at the end of the plenary there. But moving on to point two,   there are clearly, I think, many areas to  explore here as has already been mentioned, but one area for thought came from  a really interesting book chapter   written by Susan Herring in 2008, called  'questioning the generational divide   technological exoticism and adult  constructions of online identity.'

Now in it, she says that when adults  use words such as unprecedented or   words such as transformational in relation to  relationships between young people and technology, then adults inadvertently at least kind of 'other'  the experiences of young people in this domain. And Herring explains this issue as the  experience gap between young people and adults. So, really kind of having adults talk  about young people's uses of technology, it must not be at the expense of  listening to learners themselves, and I think this is critical really as we move  forward in outdoor education as we know there is,   for now at least, limited literature which  centralizes the youth voice in this space. And the second issue actually was brought up  by Heidi Smith in the chat not too long aga,   around the kind of sliding scale of  access to technology for young people. It's estimated that over 3.8 billion people have   some form of access to social  media across the world, but we cannot, and indeed should not,  assume that all young people have equal   access to these forms of technology.  And I think we can go further here.

There are other factors at play for young people  who do have a smartphone who are connected.   For instance, things such as intersectional  issues around maybe gender, sexuality,   socioeconomic backgrounds and  ethnicity. And of course there are more. Yeah, we have to ask how these may begin to  affect how young people use networked spaces.  I think these are key areas for the field  of education more broadly to consider, and absolutely key factors for both  research and practice in outdoor education.

And finally, point three, it's yeah, super  important that we ask 'where to next?' Now, I don't want to bring down the mood here  by mentioning that the Covid word, but I think   this is really important when thinking about where  next, especially in this context of technology, so during lockdowns and isolation, there is  literature now emerging which recognizes   how networked spaces provided a kind of  critical arena for young people's interactions, but also for their learning,  for their sense of togetherness,   and also for their sense of belonging. And in the UK context at least, as residential  centers begun thankfully reopening,   I think it's really important to recognize  that connectivity for young people   has been, and will likely continue  to be, more important than ever. I think this is a, like I say, a critical  consideration for both research and practice, especially as we hopefully, hopefully  move toward a post-pandemic society.

So, overtime. I'll end there. But thank  you very much. Pass back to Simon. Great, well I want to thank our three  presenters: Imre van Kraalingen,   Jack Reed, Dave Hills, for your  wonderful and informed input today. It kind of feels like I'm cheating by  not having to read all this other stuff,   'cause I don't need to read it at all. I just  need to know people who have read it all. So, thanks so much for all the  work that you're doing in this.

Bye everybody! Thanks for joining us today.

2021-11-06

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