Upgrading The Documentation Processes With Software

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[Music] thank you [Music]   sure so I'm the co-founder here at CAD maker so we  started the company friend of mine from business   school nine years ago um and uh so at first we  started doing digital construction and then uh   Services um kind of bringing kind of scripting  and Automation and kind of high-end modeling   to construction so we recruited heavily outside  of construction brought them into construction   ecosystem worked on construction projects and  then we've kind of grown and evolved over the   years from there and about four years ago we  started kind of you know reinvesting every penny   we could get out of the company into building a  product Suite um which has evolved into basically   one main product or focused on at the moment see  in builder.io so CM Builder to iOS is a web-based   construction planning and simulation product so  the idea is it's really making it very easy for   sought non-software technical folks uh uh like  project planner site managers uh pre-construction   and of course the Bim BDC folks be able to do 3D  site Logistics and 40 simulation in a much simpler   faster way um so yeah so we work a lot on that  so we have a service business that's working on   a number of projects around the world um and uh  and we learn a lot from those projects and then   we try to do our best to take those learnings and  uh turn them into tools automations uh templates   processes that we can continue to get better each  day and then also learning on how we can build   specific products like SAS products that can solve  other problems for our customers it's all the same   Target customer construction industry um but just  the way we go about solving the problem that the   customer may change from a service versus a  product depending on what the customer needs   so that's the high level we're based in Vancouver  Canada and do projects all over the world and it   was a mass Timber podcast we do a lot of mass  number work it's one of our big Focus areas   at the moment I guess for the last four or five  years and um and we're really excited about math   timber in general and kind of turning construction  sites into manufacturing uh problems to be solved   um uh which is really exciting so yeah that's  the that's the short Cole's notes on on our on us   yeah no that's really cool so what are some of the  the problems you you mentioned before traditional   construction problems that you've already been  able to solve through some of your SAS products   and what are the other sort of problems around  that space which are you're currently solving on   and and the most exciting for you yeah so I guess  um I'll just highlight a couple for our services   business when it comes to math Timber specifically  um it's a fairly new thing in the world you know   um uh in terms of just like you know you mentioned  even with what you're working on there's a lot of   historical data that you can leverage like a  concrete and steel structure system structural   systems um Architects need to design in different  ways right like they're used to maybe designing to   the last possible second and even you know the  joke is build design not design build they're   still You're Building you're still designing  as you go and and when you work on a master   project you have to freeze those things a lot  earlier which I know you know well you're well   aware I'm sure your audience is well aware of  so that introduces some challenges right this   um understanding what kind of systems are  being selected earlier what's the design   of manufacturing assembly type of considerations  that need to be taken into you know when you're   designing these things um for example we worked on  a 26 story math Timber project where um you know   every structural system like every flow or as  you go up the tower the column size has changed   right and at first you're like it doesn't seem  like that big of a deal but because the column   sizes were changing every time the connections are  changing on every single floor almost right and   because of that it just adds way more Machining  operations more typical you know the not the   typical details explode so you need to have Smart  parametric automated ways to manage those types of   uh changes in in the information and and data and  uh and Manufacturing the end manufactured product   um so those are things that we're pretty  good at you know just understanding how   to model those things how to model them in an  automated way how to give information that can   be fabricated from and that's coordinated and  works with the rest of the Building Systems   um so this is we have a team of  Engineers that just do this all day long   um so that's a that's a big area we focus on  some things like airports and big complicated   projects typically we work on large projects uh  where they need larger teams to be able to spun   up in a short period of time and deliver  a lot of work in a short period of time   um High complexity so yeah that's what we focus on  there and then on our product side some problems   are like 98 of the world when it comes to site  Logistics and planning projects is in 2D still   um there may be uh some nice looking animations  as part of a Pursuit but generally speaking the   actual planning is more even the best companies in  the world that are most Bim and VDC focused this   piece this site Logistics piece is kind of over  here uh because it requires a lot of knowledge and   know-how from the folks who build the project  in real life um it's kind of Standalone crane   location host location traffic management you know  do you have to retain trees do you have to see   them do are you gonna remove trees you can replant  trees are you are you getting access to this site   are you gonna have to have multi uh occupancy  phasing structure so you have to build over here   while there's people over there and there's safety  considerations so all those things um are pretty   much uh there's not great technology being used  to solve them there is some Legacy products in   the market but generally they're quite expensive  and quite complicated so people default back to 2D   so we make uh we see them build it to make it  really simple for people to you know to model   those things in 3DS drag and drop fully parametric  it's really easy to do and running on the web they   can work from anywhere they can work on their data  anywhere and Share work multiplayer mode all these   kind of things and drive collaboration at a higher  level so there's a few problems we've come across   over the years and we try to build solutions for  them and that's kind of how we scale the business   yeah great so uh we referring to the  ascent building was that a 24 story yes yes   yeah great yes so what sort of design automation  can you assist within a project like like that so   what sort of ways did you get involved  um so so that we don't typically get   that much involved in design we're kind of  really we do fabrication design assistance   um but typically we don't other than coordination  and overall constructability we don't really   comment or get too involved in design per se we're  trying to take the design information which often   in these projects back to a problem is design  intent you know this is typically um an intent   and then a lot of the challenges of actually  how to build it gets put on to say the Sub sub   trades or the other fabricator which comes in much  later so there's a gap there between the two and   um and so like things that we'll do is somewhat  soft some software related registrative smart   ways to manage changes and complexity of models  and trying to be very precise with how we work   um and using a lot of code to generate things as  opposed to manually modeling things as much as   possible so that's helpful um but also some of  it's just over the years is learning knowledge   understanding we work with a lot of them major  suppliers around the world if we understand what   kind of data they need and what format and how  they're going to nest and also and Bill it are   they going to Nest through the transportation  nesting to send material around the world worked   on a project in Singapore a really large project  where we had was sending stuff from Europe and you   know understanding how to pack the containers  and or glue them and these things is pretty   complicated so we built up a number of like  genetic algorithms that help solve for those   things since we can embed those in our services  uh to help add value to the project so yeah this   you know those types of things it's mostly like  what's the problem what's an appropriate way   to solve that problem can we leverage some stuff  we've done in the past already we'll call it back   to the background IP that we have that's great if  not we might have to build something new to solve   this problem depending on what it is that we're  trying to accomplish yeah to be honest it's that   there's actually for people listing the podcast  for a while now they're probably like there's   a couple of things that come up all the time  one is around moisture and sight and all that   sort of stuff the other is exactly what you're  talking about there it's that gap between what   the structural engineer documentation process is  usually like and then what the uh the the supplier   and the manufacturer needs um and then there's  a big gap and a scope Gap and it turns out to   be the critical path for projects and where all  the issues come is like is getting to that you   know the design side of a structural engineer to  the point of nesting and building so yeah can you   elaborate a bit further on on how that process  what it is now and how that can be improved   yes I think I mean it's obvious what I've kind of  come to learn is there's these amazing especially   Mass Timber there's these amazing master builder  you know long-term Carpenters that are experts   in their especially in Europe right you have a  lot of this kind of ecosystem of folks that work   Carpenters they go do their Master's in Structural  Engineering they have practical knowledge they   understand would they understand Timber and  then they typically either go into Structural   Engineering Consulting side or they go work for  the fabricator and um and there's just you know   specifically because of procurement models and how  projects are actually delivered there's often kind   of a conflict between the two right you have a  structural engineer that's tasked with design   and making sure it doesn't fall over and it's  solving for some of those wind loads and moisture   actually moisture is a big one where we where  we are Vancouver Canada because it rains a lot   and for example um there's a there's you know  a lot like we had a project the first ever big   project we did was called Brock Commons uh here  in Vancouver it was pretty amazing project to   be a part of and there's uh um uh like a joint  architect named Herman Kaufman he's out of uh   Austria I believe um and he was like in our office  we were having this talk and he was going through   the model he was just pointing out where all the  areas where all the water is going to pool based   on the system the assemblies and how things  come together and he's like that's where the   risk is you know mold and moisture content of  wood and and understanding okay well if that's   the case then what's the manufacturing um you know  constraints that can go into this like Edge gluing   versus non-edge gluing for example of panels so  some of the Australia the European providers will   Edge glue the CLT panels and then press the panels  some North American won't right so if they're not   then you the way the moisture is either going to  get through the panels or not is a consideration   and all that knowledge that goes into that is  often in the heads of a few Specialists that are   out there swimming around in the world and they're  usually getting involved in some of these projects   and sometimes they're not what we're trying to do  is say well how can we embed as much as we can of   that inside code inside templates inside in a more  scalable way to learn from those things and then   be able to apply them on the next incremental  Project without having to have you know one   or two people be relied on to know everything  so yeah the the those are just some examples   um but you know CNC time like pre-cutting holes  for for piping let's say right so you got a panel   you know do you see and see all the openings  on the panel before they come to site or do   you try to cut it on site well that's a big  actually Kai on our team could probably give   you all the calculations yeah yeah yeah it's  a it's usually yes but it's a depends question   actually it depends if it's 3 Pi CLT and you can  actually cut it decently you know there's a lot   of upfront coordination and work that goes into  making sure that you can pre-end pre-cnc panels   with all the openings for shafts for duct work and  piping and stuff like that and there's more time   on the tools right you have more CNC time which is  generally the bottleneck of every factory factory   for CNC for for Mass numbers the CNC so you're  trying to remove the amount of time you need per   panel on the CNC so you're adding more time so  you better make make sure you're saving a lot   on site when you do these things right so there's  all these kind of things that you got to consider   when you're in that kind of designed fabrication  manufacturing assembly kind of dfma discussion   um that you know can be done with software it's  also just done by experience and understanding   where's the best place to apply these kind of  tools and templates yeah I used to work for a   CLT manufacturer and the pricing model is pretty  difficult because you're trying to balance a lot   of things you've got the material feed stock price  and then it's hard to model exactly how how the   panel is going to go through a factory and how to  price it properly and because there's uncertainty   there probably you know increases going forward  but if you've got that solved where you're from   the very start you know exactly how fast it's  going to flow through and what a volume per   shift can be pumped out of a factory I mean that  can really drive the cost down I'd imagine what   do you reckon yeah so that's a great insight and  my what I've learned and I'm not on involved in   every project anymore but one thing I'll say is uh  you know how does a so you work for fabricator how   does a fabricator make money right they make money  by shipping panels like turning raw materials into   finished products and and setting them maybe not  even installing them right they might just be   producing panels and generally speaking your their  utilization rate drives their business right how   utilized are their fixed assets so you know if  you can as a as if you're an owner if you're an   architect and you want to work with some of these  big players they're quite happy to be delivered a   very accurate detailed model with build materials  and information to be able to just produce right   because that shop drying time that modeling time  they're going to make some money from that but   it's typically not the core business right it's  typically not what keeps the lights on and to your   point it's an extremely volatile Risky Business  like a couple years ago here in North America   there's a massive spike in Timber prices right  and all of a sudden you know you need you need   raw Lumber you need lumber to go into big  panels right and so how do you hedge that and   that's beyond my pay grade I'm sure this Futures  contracts and different things to understand but   generally speaking with all that how do you  de-risk things right de-risking means better   information the ability to um convert machine code  run on the machine CNC parts that make sense that   are shipped and packed in a container in the most  efficient way maybe there's the lifting of those   panels is into consideration one project we had a  script that would calculate the center of gravity   of each panel and just put a little code in the  inside of the g code this add a little bit where   the grooves would be for the for the lifting lugs  lifting and where they could just lift the paddles   flat so depending on what the panel looked like  if it's an edge panel it's cornered it's got an   opening for a duct the center of gravity could  dramatically change so the idea of just being   able to rig that panel quickly and safely fly it  up flat and bring it in is super valuable right   so those types of things especially if they're on  the installation side of that whole equation is   going to save them labor it's going to save some  time it's going to allow them to make a little   more projects so generally speaking this is a very  difficult businesses to run and um and you know   better information that can be delivered faster  and more efficiently is going to be a big driver   in terms of keeping that CNC running and keeping  that raw material being turned into panels and   shipped out the door yeah that's so good what  are the what are the overall new technologies   that you see coming in which is gonna you know you  might be jumping on the back of but are sort of   moving the industry forward in this direction you  know I I I I I see lots of interesting seems like   everyone's working on um you know kind of like  uh your kid of Parts based dfma based like uh   um you know generative design solutions that  can say hey based on a standard eight of Parts   um you know here let's generate a bunch  of different options that an architecture   designer can choose from and I think that's all  very helpful to work through the early phases of   the design phase uh I think Downstream there's a  lot of work that needs to be done in the industry   at large to standardize things which is hard  this is like a really hard problem to solve   um and what we see a lot is you know a design  team who are amazing and they've done a pretty   good job to rationalize the design down to  something that's fairly optimized and they   handle there's only going to be 10 types and then  you start working on it you're like well there's   a bulkhead over here and there's a notch in the  panel now that's another type and over here you're   going to need to have um you you know we're  going to use a pre-engineer can we've changed   to pre-engineered connections so we're going to  change the way the end the end style of that of   that beam is going to be so there's a new type so  it's just so hard to have only a few types really   when you get into manufacturing terms and um so I  think anything that can help streamline the design   phase into detail like the schematic into detail  design phase with machine operations and different   types of machine code type of implications built  into it nesting and these types of optimization   things and they can go from design to fabrication  uh in a seamless way is really valuable seeing   a lot of people try it both on the software  side or the process side katera you know is   famously tried to kind of vertically integrate  to do some of these things and I think you know   without seeing a little bit of that close up front  it's just extremely hard it's extremely hard uh to   completely verticalize the whole building process  and I'm not even sure necessarily it's the right   thing to do I think most people yeah okay well  that might maybe that's not the right thing to   do I think there's a lot of amazing people there  trying to build stuff that there's no knock on   that I think it's just extremely difficult to  do what they were trying to do so then you see   what that you know that what I've seen is the  the uh depend on the swung away over here was   like okay we're just gonna have different parts  and we're just gonna clip them together from a   supply chain and everyone's going to have their  own parts and it's going to come together also   extremely difficult to do so you know somewhere  in the middle it's probably where we're gonna land   right and I've seen some really interesting stuff  lately with like you know using CLT vertical Shear   walls like I'm a structural engineer like yourself  so I'm not gonna you speak too much out of school   here but like you know before it was always panels  okay maybe a core you might do in CLT or maybe you   do some some other solution for the core now  we're starting to see like a lot of vertical   walls you know sheer walls being CLT as well or  are penalized as well um if you see the exterior   facade DLT panels as some people have been working  on that uh obviously a lot has its own challenges   um but and generally speaking I can see  incrementally that we're marching towards   the middle ground between let's do everything in  one place versus like let's have everyone do their   own things and magically it's all going to click  together and somewhere in the middle where you   have let's let's automate the systems that make  sense to be automated and vertically integrate   the systems that make sense to be vertically  integrated and then you know have um you know a   a middle ground solution where you say maybe the  map contractors got racks and they got different   types of prefabricated Solutions we'll be running  things through corridors and stuff like that which   there's a lot of great people in this market like  Meadows Plumbing is doing a lot of interesting   stuff so yeah so I I think it's like software it's  process it's understanding of mass Timber just   generally speaking is getting better like when we  started five years only five years ago I mean like   the owner would be like uh oh we're doing a you  know five-story rental building let's just turn   it to mass timber in the structure they're the  ogs of structure of Structural Engineering for uh   for Mass Timber you know in this market it's uh  the fast naps and the you know the equilibriums   and uh and those folks were kind of like um you  can't just like change the whole thing it's like   is that how it works you gotta have to design  the building from scratch to think this way   um and I think people are starting to understand  that it's its own thing you know it needs to be   treated like differently than this your normal  cast in place concrete project or in your neck   of the woods there's a lot of Precast it's  somebody gets closer to pre-class actually   um in terms of like lots of planning up front  freezing design in advance getting your supply   chain in check understand like we had a project in  California it's a massive project at the time it   was the biggest in the world I think it's now been  built by a few others that we were involved with   luckily but they had to pre-fabricate six months  in advance the CLT panels to store them on site   just because once the assembly process started  kicking in they couldn't keep up the production   couldn't keep up with the assembly process because  it's so fast so this takes a tremendous amount of   time so you got to freeze the whole thing year  in advance right yeah this is not normally what   people do in construction so um so I think I've  seen a lot of really interesting steps taken by   the industry to understand what Mass Timber is  different the owners need to understand that it's   different the economics are different everything's  different about it and you can't just you know put   a square peg in a round hole and say like oh we're  going to do a concrete tower building we'll just   turn into Timber should should just be where  you could do that right well your good spacing   changes now you know what type of build you know  there's things that make make the project work and   um so technology process and understanding I think  at the beginning you're working on some knowledge   based type stuff that's another thing right  there's just people getting good and understanding   knowledge based reports coming out as you know PhD  reports that are publishing data on what people   are learning right these things are critical to  assuming report yeah I didn't realize have you   you've mentioned so I didn't real you've been part  of Brock Coleman's NT NTU ascent and it was saying   before this episode you're part of the early Lend  Lease projects as well is that right yeah we've   been fortunate this is one of the coolest ones is  the Portland PDX airport it was it's more recent   one it's pretty incredible engineering feat um  I highly encourage everyone to go look that up   um they basically built like uh you know  football fields American football field size   um cassettes they call them that were like  basically the whole roof assemblies and they   just there's like 20 of them and they moved them  in the night with these massive uh mobile cranes   and uh and like actually so we like did all the  modeling and detailing for that for fabrication   but also helped with the kinematic simulation of  how we're gonna actually move these things safely   um pretty incredible some unfortunate to be  evolved involved with that so a lot about some   of the high profile projects but also lots lots of  many not high profile but still equally impressive   and you know uh you know projects that are five  stories uh that are mixed use projects that are   being built in Mass Timber and why I say that is  that you know economically like from a performer   perspective I used to work on the owner side to  pass my past life you know these these projects   didn't pencil before right they just didn't they  didn't make sense and they're they're starting   to make more sense where people are making hey  I think we can build this in Mass Timber get a   lot of the benefits of the prefabrication process  and time the time value of money of delivering a   project quicker with higher quality more Precision  people like to live in these buildings more   probably because of the wood and stuff like that  you know so it's that's also a big step I think so   it's a lot we worked on a lot of smaller projects  that you know that don't get all the accolades and   stuff are equally as impressive because they're  being delivered typically by the standard trades   or SAS subbies as you call them that are not  fancy and they're not Timber focused subbies and   they're just delivering these projects because  the ecosystem is getting bit better at being   able to say well if you're a carpenter you're  doing four more you probably could install some   panel as well like with some CLT paddles with  some with some training and some some coaching   yeah that's so good and it sounds like every time  you're working on another project because you're   using Code base Solutions it's infrastructure and  you've got a starting point and it's evolving and   you know everyone's doing it in different places  do you see this driving down the cost of solutions   like this as we go forward I hope so I think so  uh you know I I definitely I think the you know   it's controversial because I don't want to  you know there's a lot of evangelism in the   mass Timber space yeah yeah people like it's just  gonna change everything you'll ever you know I'm   not sure we're there yet I think that there's some  issues that need to be fleshed out I think there's   some early adopt I think we're getting through the  early adopter phase and again I'm I'm not gonna   pretend like I'm an expert on all things Mass  timber in the world I have been fortunate to be   involved with quite a few and I've learned from a  lot of amazing Architects instructions you're just   being in the room with them and yeah I'm going  to say you you've been the you're probably the   only person who's been on the most high profile  projects around the world so I'll just get a   call you out on your humility well that's nice  but I think I think as you do more I think you   learn how little you know so uh yeah I agree and  these things are so complicated and um I think   a lot it's easy to just it makes wide sweeping  statements and you know owners have a perspective   right and then the supply chain has a perspective  and um in you know and and the design team has a   perspective and there's environmental cases to be  made which I'm hearing it changes all the time you   know when I first started it was very clear that  environmental positive aspects of mass Timber and   lately I've been hearing some studies coming out  that you know challenge that a little bit like I   don't think I'm here to say that it's not good for  them everybody there's there are considerations   about you know chopping down trees and putting  them into buildings and and yet and the net net   just you know understanding of what all that  means for the industry but I think also cost   you mentioned cost like cost is just still a major  factor and it's I don't know what I think what I   think what it is is we're trying to apply you know  again our company has struggled with this quite   frankly like we you know we're trying to apply a  repeatable manufacturing process like they did in   cars everyone says oh it's like cars these are  these aren't cars right we're not building cars   you know like it there's the Project's different  every time you're a structural engineer even if   you have the exact same design it's going to  be different if you're in a different Market it   just is because of structural code and different  things you have to do we're in a big we're in a   high seismic region so the seismic constraints  just make up big it adds a lot of complexity   right it has a lot of complexity of the whole  thing and you can't just say here's a template   run with it like just make the same thing every  single time it just in theory it looks sounds   great in a PowerPoint looks fantastic but in  practice it falls apart you know and I think it's   it's not like these problems can't be solved I  think they can be solved but it's like what's   the right structure to deliver a project to solve  it right like is it an owner having a stake in   that and and make shared Equity perhaps is it you  know is it better for rental where you can have a   long-term you know Revenue stream from that asset  and you can amortize some of those additional   costs over a longer period of time if you're just  going to build it and sell it and try to get your   money back day one you know you have a lot of  risk volatility in the lumber Market uh Supply   constraints you know if you look in the market  in North America I mean if if all of a sudden all   these projects that are being designed actually  all went to production at the same time the market   couldn't serve it right then now you go overseas  to Europe Europe can handle it but then a lot of   the reasons why this project got designed in the  first place kind of start to fall down because   you got a lot like it yeah when you're sending the  panels all the way from Austria there's definitely   a bigger footprint to that right and there's  a different cost so you know and then and then   you look at us I'm kind of rambling now but I  think it's really interesting to talk about how   some of our team have done quite a few um you know  like uh visits to the to the various factories in   in Europe and stuff like that and it's truly  incredible how automated to run in massive   factories with just a few people it's very uh um  very impressive process you say well why can't we   do this here well it took them years and years and  years and years to develop that and the culture   is different like in Switzerland where we I was  lucky enough to see some amazing um factories in   Switzerland um Goodell is one of them a few other  customers a few other companies are and they just   have a culture there as well right this is like  many many DEC you know decades and in generations   of how they build in Switzerland and you can see  that and how they set up their Factory right this   is a cultural thing as well as a technologist  technology and process thing and a quality thing   it's not so easy to just replicate that everywhere  in the world that don't have the same culture so   um so yeah it's it's it's a fascinating  thing I think there's a lot of opportunities   um and um we'll see hopefully we can get I think  we're out of that early adopter phase now we're   into the scale up phase you know you're in  a startup this is the hardest part I mean   making it repeatedly work is a challenging  thing and we're trying to do our part in the   ecosystem to help with that as well yeah well  how exciting uh if people want to find out more   about yourself Javier and what you guys are up to  where should everyone go uh yeah so cadmakers.com   is our uh company uh cmbuilder.ios our  product main product that we focus on  

um we have some other stuff there too  but uh and then we do a lot on LinkedIn   so uh we try to uh post on LinkedIn and  try to have some fun with it too so yeah [Music]   foreign [Music]

2023-04-13

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