Israeli, U.S., and EU Tech Firms Uphold Global Power Hierarchies – Petra Molnar Pt. 2/2
you're watching the analysis. newws and I'm Talia baronelli this is part two of my conversation with human rights lawyer and Anthropologist Petra molar we've been discussing her recent book The Walls have eyes and in this episode we'll get into the geopolitical implications of border and surveillance technology if you've been enjoying these episodes feel free to go to our website the analysis. news and support us by hitting the Donate button at the top right corner of the screen make sure you're on our mailing list that way you're always up to dat every time we send out new content and that it gets sent straight to your inbox you can also like And subscribe to the show on podcast streaming services such as Spotify or apple or on our YouTube channel see you in a bit with Petra [Music] molar joining me now is Petra molar she's a human rights lawyer and Anthropologist who co-runs the refugee law Lab at York University in Toronto and she also co-founded the migration and Technology monitor which does work on human rights and Technology she's the author of a new book called The Walls Have Eyes surviving migration in the age of artificial intelligence so thanks so much for joining me today Petra thanks so much for having me I think one thing that became evident to me reading your book is that the legal framework to deal with AI is is I mean it's a patchwork it's not coherent across the globe and in the United States when you deal with or in Canada for example when you deal with a lot of these high-risk Technologies it's a completely different legal landscape and you were also involved in um critiquing the European Union's AI act so I was wondering if you could shed some light on that because I think the AI act Provisions when it comes to highrisk systems is you know probably not enough to ensure that this erosion of Rights doesn't bleed over into other areas yeah so you know I mean for those who are familiar with my work you know that I'm a reluctant lawyer but I'm still a lawyer so I'll put on my lawyer hat for a second um it's an interesting time now to try and understand the kind of governance mechanisms and lawmaking that's happening on technology generally and and Border chech specifically um I mean I think it's fair to say that you know we don't have a lot of law globally speaking and domestically speaking to regulate really high-risk technology and and again that's not an accident right because it allows powerful actors to experiment to innovate to move fast and break things right that was a common slogan in Silicon Valley um and just introduce more and more technology without any kind of guard rails now you mentioned the European Union's AI act this was a really interesting opportunity to create a framework for governance of artificial intelligence and that's hard to do right like to be totally fair we're talking about an omnious piece of lawmaking this massive bill that tries to deal with all sorts of facets of AI from Toys to you know transport to border Tech and that's hard to do right it took many many years and there was a coalition of us academics lawyers civil society that tried to get the members of the European Parliament to think about what this Tech is actually doing to real people in our case at the border and we were actually calling for some bans of some of the most high-risk uses of Technology whether that's for example individualized risk assessments that use artificial intelligence or the use of predicted analytics for Border decision- making and border interdictions which are actually illegal under international law and a few other of these amendments but unfortunately but perhaps not surprisingly none of these amendments made it in again because migration is an incredibly politicized issue and so it's interesting because when you actually go into the text of the act at first blush you're like what is she talking about there is a you know uh a high-risk kind of Matrix in there that is used to determine what technologies are considered highrisk and what some of the protections need to be had right when we're talking about these projects except when you actually look closely you will see that there are a lot of exceptions or derogations in the act under National Security so if a member state is able to say well but we need this project for National Security none of those high-risk measures apply and surprise surprise border Tech and National Security are often conflict ated together and the last thing I'll see about the AI Act is again it's a missed opportunity right because it really could have set a global precedent on regulating AI especially border Tech and because it didn't do that what incentive does the United States have to regulate or Canada or Australia I'm not saying that the European Union should have all this power right to designate necessarily what we regulate but it just sets a a global conversation in motion that now again reaffirms that we don't have a lot of guard rails or even a lot of conversations about a moratorium or a ban off some of the highest risk Technologies and I don't really know where this is going to go to be honest because you know The Optimist in me says well the more people learn about it the more conversations we're going to have but maybe the realist pessimist says I mean we can't even agree on autonomous weapons used in war right and how to regulate those what are the chances that we're going to agree on some sort of of you know Global agreement on Border Technologies it's not very likely I think it's definitely going to continue being this laboratory of experimentation because it's also a very lucrative one and again kind of what back to what we were saying before because the private sector increasingly has the ear of governments whether through lobbying in Brussels or I mean now like literally in the Oval Office with musk it's not really likely that we're going to see more regulation in the tech space at all right and this also goes to a lot of the Israeli um Tech firms that are involved in developing surveillance and other technologies that can be used at the border like elbet systems for example in an Israeli company which um I mean they develop drone technology and and other um Technologies which are used even by frontex for example the European border and and Coast Guard agency in the European Union frontex uses drones by made by Albert system to um to surveil the Mediterranean and other parts of the EU borders and so and and of course a lot of the weapons that Albert makes is also used in the US context so I mean how does this all line up because there are various issues that are involved here it is obviously a politicized issue and using Technologies made by an Israeli firm which most probably have been first developed on Palestinians in the occupied territories I mean how does this sort of ensure that there is a global hierarchy in place yeah and a global hierarchy that firmly places Israeli technology at the top right um this is something that you know people like Anthony lewenstein who's a Jewish journalist um have been writing on for a long time he published a book called The Palestine laboratory specifically on the Israel testing of Technologies on Palestinians and then exporting it out for other uses and I've been doing research on this too from the border uh perspective right like you mentioned um there's her and drones and elbet drones that are flown around the Mediterranean and the GNC there's elbit systems surveillance Towers in the Sonora Desert and that's an Israeli company right and so much of this technology is first tested out in Gaza and in the occupied West Bank you know I was in the West Bank in the spring of 2023 in places like heon and ramala and other places as well where a lot of this technology takes place and you know seeing it firsthand like you really realize the power of normal Iz in this omnipresent surveillance that's first tested out on Palestinians and then exported out to the border and geopolitically too I mean we are seeing so much problematic decision- making around the normalization of tech because so many western actors are afraid to take a stand right on what is happening and what Israel is doing with the genocide in Gaza also testing autonomous weapons on Palestinians there right like it is this kind of normalization of so much of this Tech that I'm fortunately has its tendrils in so many other applications it doesn't just stay in Gaza or the occupied West Bank but then it actually filters out into other spaces too I wanted to ask you about the ways in which a lot of these securitized approaches to migration and to what they called migration management um is actually used as an extension of foreign policy and so you write about this in your book and Todd Miller who I know is a colleague and friend of yours who wrote the book OV borders he's also written about this in in terms of how the US custom and Border Protection officers are stationed around the globe to actually prevent migration to the United States so in a sense they're functioning as a tool of us imperialism beyond the actual territory and jurisdiction of the United States and we see this in the European Union context in which the European Coast Guard and Border agency frontex is stationed along the periphery of the European Union and in certain instances in Poland for example which you wrote about they're actually screening people and ensuring that only ukrainians are allowed in and allowed the right to Asylum and they can move to whichever country they want within the European Union to get protection whereas certain people such as Afghans or syrians who are also escaping conflict are not afforded the same right even though the right to Asylum is actually for everyone but there's been a derogation um away from those laws in favor of in this case ukrainians over other people so could you speak about the way that these policies are used as an extension of imperialism and foreign policy yeah and this this goes back to those kind of Logics that we're talking about right that underpin who is welcome who is seen as a quote unquote worthy Refugee and which populations are again rendered as threats frauds and terrorists and so much of this breaks down along racial lines right and the the kind of projects of Empire and white supremacy that Todd Miller writes about and also Hara Walia and my colleague tindaya Chum I mean you know these kind of racial Logics that need to be paid attention to in terms of how we even conceptualize a person on the move that is welcome versus someone who is not and I'm glad that you mentioned the Polish Bellar Russian border situation because I think this really brought it to light in in many ways so a few years ago the belarussian lucenko regime was essentially weaponizing migration as a way to get a bunch of sanctions lifted sanctions that were imposed by the European Union and he essentially invited groups of Asylum Seekers to come to the belarussian Polish border and then make their way into the un uh European Union through this forested Corridor between bellarus and Poland of course Poland then erected a noo Zone uh militarized the Border used a lot of surveillance there that they learned about from Greece interestingly enough and essentially trapped hundreds of people in a freezing Forest it was this kind of weaponization of migration and on part of the lucenko regime but also on part of Poland to say like these refugees are not welcome right A lot of them came from Iraqi Kurdistan Syria Afghanistan then few months later when the fullscale occupation of Ukraine began right we saw a very different response an essential open border policy kilometers down right at the Polish Ukrainian border where I was there with colleagues doing human rights monitoring you know and having seen this massive shift from a few months ago at the Polish Bellar Russian border where it was securitized militarized unwelcome you know babies were dying in freezing forests and then on the other hand Ukrainian refugees were allowed um to come into the European Union with open arms essentially it again brought these Logics of of race exclusion into sharp focus and I'm not saying that Ukrainian refugees should not have been welcome I think that was wonderful right it just shows that it is all about these Logics and constructions of who is welcome and who isn't right and it could have been a moment of Hope as well right because it's like if it's possible to do this for Ukrainian refugees then it is possible to do it for other refugees too right although even with Ukrainian refugees right the kind of Tide has turned and and even a few months after people were coming into European Union there was already Rumblings like well when are they going to go back you know like the even the humanitarian kind of space that opened up perhaps similarly to what happened in 2015 2016 when Syrian refugees were entering European Union for the first time unfortunately yeah I mean I think that space has shrunk and and unfortunately migration has kind of been weaponized again even against Ukrainian refugees now there is a part of your book I think it was a chapter that's called we are here because you were there can you explain that as I think I mean it's it just it's really powerful but it's it's very short and I think it represents a lot more in terms of history and migration so I was hoping that you could explain that to people sure and and you know I can't take credit for this statement this is something that has been said a lot by people in the global majority and and people who are on the Move themselves as a way to recognize that so much of human movement and migration is as a result again of Western imperialism of conflict of colonialization and the reason why people are moving is again because of Western action right and there is this kind of Amnesia I think on part of the European Union and the United States this almost like shock why are people coming right well it's because of wars that have been perpetrated by the West for for centuries decades right and so I I like this reframing because it also I think reintroduces agency and dignity and choice on part of Mobile populations that are making their way Westward perhaps right um and it also has perhaps a a reminder of of the the kind of conversations that are being had about reparations you know like does the West ow um communities that have been disenfranchised historically bombed out you know at the receiving end of environmental degradation too largely as a result of Western in action right on the global climate crisis as well that also forces people to move um I think it's a great reminder of the responsibility of powerful actors um you know to at least try and understand why people are coming what are some of the root causes of migration and the root cause conversation is something that is just not being had right like we are focusing on drones at the border stronger border migration management more technology keeping people away rather than actually addressing the root causes of why people have to move and if I can just share you know an anecdote I mean this is something I think that is so simple but a lot of people don't think about you know I have heard this time and again from people who are on the move but people don't want to be refugees right that is not a choice that you would make um willy-nilly or like I'm just going to do this now right and that's not saying that people don't have economic reasons to migrate as well I think that's actually perfectly fine to have legitimate needs of Asylum and also have economic reasons to move we are all complex beings but I think it's a reminder that again people don't want to be forced from their home if they could stay home a lot of people would right but again it goes back to the root causes of why people are having to move and you know why they are finding themselves in places that again are the places that are perhaps the reason why they had to move in the first place well could you speak about that a bit more because I think some people look at migration through a very narrow lens maybe through a security lens or even just through a strictly Asylum lens and they don't actually look at some of the broader hierarchies and forces that are involved I mean how like based on the research that you've done in various parts of the globe how would you say that migration is actually a product of a lot of global hierarchies but also strategies of capitalist accumulation and you know poverty and marginalization yeah and you know this is where the work of hara Walia comes to mind and the great reporting that the transnational Institute has been doing on this for years and years tying for example Western warmongering in in spaces like subsaharan Africa to the kind of creation of forced migration and and profiting off of this literally War profiteering right and then it rubs up against these again these anxieties about keeping the Border safe preventing people from coming into the European Union this is also where we see a lot of you know the big word for it is externalization but really all that means is European union and you know the United States pushing it border further a field and using different types of tools whether that is surveillance or training of Border guards or just basically any kind of mechanism to prevent people from even reaching European territory the Border actually moves into North Africa or subsaharan Africa as a result so there's kind of this this tension there right because we see these largely Western forces um creating a lot of the conflict or stoking a lot of the conflict or at the very least being willfully blind to things like environmental degradation and then strengthening the Border regime the exclusion the externalization through Tech through policymaking through deterrence right and yet just being so unprepared I think for the the fact that more and more people are going to be migrating in the coming decades that I think is a given and I'm not saying that again as a like the fearmonger but I think that's a fact of life now um and it's important to pay attention to again how capital and like you say resource accumulation extraction um also labor issues that come into this right with the development of Technology who which communities get tested on when it comes to technology that all really comes back to this kind of global story of who gets to um benefit from being in the west who gets to benefit from from new technology and which communities again are at the receiving end of all of this and and relegated to the margins do you think that with the climate crisis just getting worse that the EU and the United States will continue to use these sort of technos solutionist um approaches to deal with people who are are fleeing due to economic or or climate destruction yeah definitely you know I mean I don't have a crystal ball but that's the that's the kind of trend that we've been noticing um again externalization more technology more surveillance um not even dealing with environmental degradation within the United States or within Europe right the massive flooding the droughts the forest fires right that we are seeing I mean that's going to stretch resources already just domestically so imagine the kind of conversations that would need to be had about creating some sort of international protection regime for people who are going to be fleeing environmental degradation and legally speaking too you know this is very much an open question because because right now International Refugee law does not recognize environmental refugees there have been cases right people have brought cases to different courts in New Zealand for example small island lation saying well we are flooding and we're going to not exist as a result of Western environmental degradation and we should be able to apply for for Refugee status and meet the refugee definition because of persecution because of environmental degradation and it hasn't gone right the Juris Prudence has not moved moved forward that way and it maybe never will there's you know competing kind of conversations about whether that's even the appropriate way to go you know amending the refugee definition or whether there maybe needs to be a whole new legal regime for people who are migrating as a result of environmental degradation but this is I mean you know maybe I'm biased because I work on this all the time but I think this is the defining issue of our time right because it brings together conversations around migration and the environment and it's really going to come to a head I mean it already has in many ways but we're just going to see more and more of this in the years to come one thing that was really interesting in your book like a lot of the companies that you're talking about this border and Tech surveillance companies a lot of them actually have private Equity investors and you know companies like Vanguard um State streets those sorts of companies and I'm sure black rock is also involved but those private Equity companies are also heavily invested in Chevron and and you know Big Oil and Gas that are actually contributing to a lot of the environmental destruction that we see so in a way it's like sort of money laundering by contributing to the problem and then investing in the so-called solution to the problem yeah you know not to mention also like the labor issues around major data centers you know that are often times also again outside of um you know Europe and and the US and also the environmental impacts of these massive server farms for example I mean they're generating so much heat so much electricity and we don't like to think about that right because we want the latest iPhone we want the latest software update like all of this really again is predicated on these um these ways that power um operates right and and all is allowed to operate in specific spaces around the world as opposed to the other ones that are extracted from um whether it comes from you know human capital labor Mobility all of that this is a final question what do you see is I guess the way to approach a lot of these invasive and aggressive Technologies I mean is it you know awareness as to their effects or is it trying to put pressure on politicians to ensure that this you know that there's maybe more robust legislation around these different high-risk systems or I mean what would you say needs to be the way forward here yeah I mean this is the stuff that keeps me up at night um I think awareness is definitely part of it uh making sure that the public and policy makers really are aware of the effects of this is of what this technology is already having on affected communities right because this is not a theoretical conversation but rather a real world example of violent Technologies and I think that maybe goes to my second point and you know and I hope this doesn't sound overly simplistic but I think actually storytelling and story driven narratives are a Way Forward because we need to humanize the people who are on the receiving end of these technological experiments you know so it's not just like a bunch of lawyers talking right but it's actually about people's experiences and expertise from the ground up that is fueling the kind of conversations that we need to be having about what we innovate on and why and that's what the book tries to do it's it's not that emic you know it tries to tell people's stories and and share stories that I've been you know privileged to to learn and and to to kind of Steward through and hopefully also as a way to humanize the issue a little bit so that again it's not just a bunch of data or drones or Robo doogs but it's it's real people on the Move who are on the sharpest edges of innovation I actually do have one final question now that you mentioned that because you know there's been this right word shift in our politics like the overtone window has shifted and that's partly because of the failure of the central left to actually identify you know what people really need and and the issues and the needs of the working class and they've also hander to a lot of the the narratives that the the right has been pushing so I mean the the right is always talking about migration as a problem but would you say that one way to combat that narrative is to give another alternative and that alternative being one that illustrates and that's one of solidarity that illustrates the various inequalities that are Global and the ways to actually combat that and to to give something to people to to for and to and you know as opposed to seeing migrants and people on the move as someone to be scared of or people to you know be fearful of and you know they're they're taking our jobs like all all the disinformation that's around that what is the alternative in terms of policy to actually bring people together and point out that the enemy is not migration or migrants but actually you know the rich Elite who are trying to divide us yeah and the enemy are these policies and politics of different right and like pitting ourselves against each other in this system that's actually hurting all of us in in different ways but in similar ways and absolutely I mean I think we need to find more togetherness um we have so much more in common with one another than than we realize right and I think politicians have become very very good at the kind of divide and conquer strategy but instead it is absolutely about creating spaces where we can learn from one another and and learn from the things that affect all of us and I think that that is a way forward that hopefully will also allow for kind of creative world making um that is necessary to be had in this rather difficult time for a lot of people Petra molar it's been really Illuminating speaking to you and and also reading your book I hope people read it the walls Have Eyes sorry about that reflection it's really a great book um so yeah thanks again for joining us and hope to have you back soon thanks so much for having me and thank you watching the analysis. news if you enjoyed that content feel free to support us by going to the analysis. news see you next time [Music] a [Music] [Applause] [Music] a [Music]
2024-12-27 16:25
